PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[DJRome]

hey dr. peepee, i really want to learn more about your style of play. i'll buy you some mcdonalds if you come personally train me

 

[Pr0jecT]

Shine grab vs falcon or land behind him.

Falcon ONLY options are UP B, OOS Stomp, and Wavedash OOS.

90% of the time its stomp.

99% of the time you can literally wait for him to be halfway through the animation before you can uptilt him.

Soooooooooo stupid

 

[JPOBS]

It's definitely not being scared LOL there's a way you can do it to where shine OOS won't work. =)

elaborate plz

 

[MacD]

More like, your Zelda's shield will get u-tilted a billion times.

i'm gonna go with 3am johns and i was nervous cause a certain canadian was watching

NEXT TIME YOU ARE GOING DOWN TIRNO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SAME GOES FOR YOU PP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

said johns may or may not be true

 

[VGmasta]

elaborate plz

I think Dr Peepee was saying that Mang0 has ways of spacing his shield pressure so that he doesn't get hit by shine OoS.

Sometimes Mang0 runs in on his opponent's shield with a SH delayed aerial --> shine --> instant aerial.
Mang0 delays the aerial to minimize the time between the hitlag from the aerial and the shine, making it pretty difficult/impossible to punish the approach until after the shine. And then, Mang0 sometimes does an instant aerial with retreating momentum out of the shine. This makes it pretty much impossible for shine OoS or shieldgrab to work on Mang0 when uses this technique.

It's like a guaranteed three hit combo on the shield, which is why Falco is so FUN!

 

[JPOBS]

Yea I know all of that, but doing that also effectively ends pressure, and then the shielding falco can just sh laser oos at them and then the tides are turned forcing the other falco who was previously shielding to go on the defensive. Or the shielding falco can Wd backwards OOS and gtfo. aerial -> shine -> retreating aerial isn't an end all be all.

I havent seen the matches since i watched em at pound 5 but Druggedfox's statement kinda make it seem like he was talking about vs extended shield pressure, and pp's response also makes it seem that way. so i wanna know what they were both doing that the other couldn't shine oos vs their pressure.

or im just wrong.

 

[Cactuar]

That isn't supposed to be an end all be all. It is just a really solid thing to do from a risk vs reward perspective.

 

[JPOBS]

ya i agree. was just wondering if pp was talking about something...more.

 

[Cactuar]

Like technically being able to sh backwards so that you backflip and your body distorts out of the way of possible punishments and continue a constant stream of unpunishable shield presha?

Nawwwww.

 

[JPOBS]

lololol aww, what a shame.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lmao fox too good.

I'm PRETTY sure that doesn't work with Falco.

Falco "can't" do that because he gets sucked into Zelda's u-smash OOS but Fox doesn't because Fox is smaller. Or something. That said, Zelda's u-smash is horrible and you could just SDI the u-smash away (not hard; I think Falco can also hold down to get out). So you actually could take preemptive measures vs their counter and do it, but you'd need to put in a bit of effort.

Not sure how kicks interact with either character's waveshine.

 

[Cactuar]

Actually, dependent on game version, you might not be able to SDI out of the upsmash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh yeah it doesn't work in 1.0 or whatever

 

[Druggedfox]

Jpobs, there's a spacing where falco can pressure any character without getting shield grabbed. He doesn't have to do the pullback and end his pressure either. This is very susceptible to aerials OoS if the aerials have any half-decent range, but it'll dodge a shine OoS. I've been doing it for a long time, ever since I saw mango do it vs rockcrock in some pound 4 friendlies. Pretty sure I've brought it up in this thread before, who knows.

I think thats what PP was saying because I've mentioned it to him before and we've discussed it; maybe he was just saying what cactuar was saying though with delayed aerials to immediate shine pullback aerials.

 

[Roneblaster]

how come when im comboing some1 with falco, the 3rd time i shine them (every ****ing time) they get out with an invisible ceiling, but my friend can waveshine me for days and i never get out like that?

 

[MacD]

Oh yeah it doesn't work in 1.0 or whatever

get at my zelda on MY CUBE!!!!!!!

 

[Moooose]

what should falco optimally do after teching a falcon up b? can you land shine to dair gauranteed?

 

[mers]

what should falco optimally do after teching a falcon up b? can you land shine to dair gauranteed?

I don't think shine dair is ever guaranteed. I'm pretty sure the Falcon can DI and escape.

 

[JPOBS]

Jpobs, there's a spacing where falco can pressure any character without getting shield grabbed. He doesn't have to do the pullback and end his pressure either. This is very susceptible to aerials OoS if the aerials have any half-decent range, but it'll dodge a shine OoS. I've been doing it for a long time, ever since I saw mango do it vs rockcrock in some pound 4 friendlies. Pretty sure I've brought it up in this thread before, who knows.

oh ok.
so are you talking about pressure involving shines as well? or just spaced aerials and uptilts/jabs/etc.

because if you're talking about pressure where your shine is still hitting his shield, i can't imagine why he couldn't grab you. i may be wrong tho. just wanna know for sure, knowing is half the battle.

 

[Winston]

what should falco optimally do after teching a falcon up b? can you land shine to dair gauranteed?

tech walljump dair should work

tech walljump land back onstage and dair him should also work

 

[Dr Peepee]

elaborate plz

Alright so, maybe I've never put my "big Falco theory" I've been working on in here, but basically everything Falco can do has a counter but also some fun mixups. Shield pressure is most certainly not an exception.

When shield pressuring, doing a somewhat delayed aerial means the shine can't really be punished, and there's not a ton of downtime for the aerial to be punished after the shine either. Thing is, mixing in shine grabs, etc makes the entire process scarier.

Okay so about shield grabbing, no one should be able to shield grab you during this pressure since you have a small amount of time to adjust your spacing for shield DI BS(may make it harder to be consistent though? never fully tested) since you're jumping above their grab(and you can also do this outside of one's range like DF suggested which is another fun mixup).

i'm gonna go with 3am johns and i was nervous cause a certain canadian was watching

NEXT TIME YOU ARE GOING DOWN TIRNO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SAME GOES FOR YOU PP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

said johns may or may not be true

Bring it bro!!!!!!

1

Like technically being able to sh backwards so that you backflip and your body distorts out of the way of possible punishments and continue a constant stream of unpunishable shield presha?

Nawwwww.

LOL it could happen mayne

the most important thing is too look cool

don't forget!

Falco "can't" do that because he gets sucked into Zelda's u-smash OOS but Fox doesn't because Fox is smaller. Or something. That said, Zelda's u-smash is horrible and you could just SDI the u-smash away (not hard; I think Falco can also hold down to get out). So you actually could take preemptive measures vs their counter and do it, but you'd need to put in a bit of effort.

Not sure how kicks interact with either character's waveshine.

Ah yeah I was curious if Zelda could still kick you and about the version thing. Thanks for the info though KK. =)

Oh yeah it doesn't work in 1.0 or whatever

Any way I can find out which version I'm playing on without getting hit by a Zelda Upsmash first? I guess this is assuming I'm sitting down on a recording setup and people want me to start before I get to look at anything. Do I have the right to look at something like a flame cancel(not sure if that actually is helpful lol) to see which version I'm on before I play?

Jpobs, there's a spacing where falco can pressure any character without getting shield grabbed. He doesn't have to do the pullback and end his pressure either. This is very susceptible to aerials OoS if the aerials have any half-decent range, but it'll dodge a shine OoS. I've been doing it for a long time, ever since I saw mango do it vs rockcrock in some pound 4 friendlies. Pretty sure I've brought it up in this thread before, who knows.

I think thats what PP was saying because I've mentioned it to him before and we've discussed it; maybe he was just saying what cactuar was saying though with delayed aerials to immediate shine pullback aerials.

Aerials can't be done OOS on the pressure Mango and I do. =) Upsmash/WD OOS work though I think. Sometimes lol.

how come when im comboing some1 with falco, the 3rd time i shine them (every ****ing time) they get out with an invisible ceiling, but my friend can waveshine me for days and i never get out like that?

You mean like 3 shines in a row? Or the third time comboing them using shines?

tech walljump dair should work

tech walljump land back onstage and dair him should also work

Sounds right to me.

 

[Twin_A]

Seriously thinking about picking up Falco and having fun with him. maybe a secondary. Assume that I have no tech skill with him (because I don't), what are some good places to start and how should I practice them?

<3

 

[Brookman]

learn the timing for his wavedash. His jump is mad fishy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Seriously thinking about picking up Falco and having fun with him. maybe a secondary. Assume that I have no tech skill with him (because I don't), what are some good places to start and how should I practice them?

<3

-Moving around with SHLs(in place forward and reverse) and controlling how high each laser goes.

-shine wavelands on platforms to help your combos/pressure

-getting the minimum damage from a dair/shine down on FF'ers by practicing basic dair/shine(with some uptilt sometimes) combos at low percents

-Learning and practicing basic laser approaches like laser grab, laser nair/dair, laser shine(to grab or another shine or retreating aerial, etc) and how to follow them up

-work your movement, whether you want to approach or defend you should have some way to be deceptive or at least have a good flow. just goof off in training mode for that one lol.

 

[Druggedfox]

PP, anytime you guys don't do an immediate aerial out of shine and leave at least a 6 frame window sheik/peach or whatever can aerial you OoS. Frame wise, unless you're doing delay aerial-->shine-->immediate aerial, how could you possibly avoid an aerial OoS? If upsmash OoS works, why wouldn't you be able to aerial?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh yeah I was just talking about Falco dittos/vs Fox for some reason LOL.

Yeah against characters like Peach or Sheik your pressure is much less guaranteed in that way but it can work if they think you're gonna fadeback aerial or double shine to beat their OOS option. Characters like that certainly strain the mixup game more on you.

 

[MacD]

for figuring out the version, the quick ways are flame cancel or make someone go like zelda and see if you can DI the u/fsmash

most people are nice and probably won't care if you ask to do it

but really, you only need to know for like zelda, and maybe IC's cause of their utilt

idk how much it matters/would benefit you if you know before hand

 

[Brookman]

you could just pop the cube open and read the disc >_>

 

[MacD]

but that's annoying and if it's a wii and stuff

quickest way though alone is flame cancel

easiest way is test SDI off like zelda smashes or IC's utilt by holding the C stick with the DIer

 

[Brookman]

omg, wii is definitely a good point.

 

[Druggedfox]

Ohhh only on fox/falco. Well then yeah LOL falco's pressure is pretty cheap on himself as long as you stay spaced out of the shine range, though i wish you'd tried upsmash OoS for kicks at least once =P

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah but that was a good point on other characters though, so thanks haha. Can't believe I didn't mention that.....

Anyway, I never felt like I'd get it off+I don't really ever upsmash OOS but I guess I'll learn the timing so I can try it whenever Mango and I play next haha.

 

[NintendoKing]

Waveshining with analog stick is so much easier with falco than using y or x.

 

[Dark Hart]

Waveshining with analog stick is so much easier with falco than using y or x.

For you, maybe

 

[JPOBS]

just watched (studied) PP vs Mango friendlies from pound 5. you guys were doing some incredible things to one another.

 

[Winston]

For you, maybe

for me too!

 

[Druggedfox]

Yeah, control stick is pretty easy for falco's waveshine since his jump is so slow and it allows you to just keep your finger ready on B

 

[Brookman]

PP, which falco player inspired you most?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Definitely Dashizwiz. When I started playing Falco in 08 Shiz was just releasing the last few of his videos before went on a super Brawl hiatus until he played M2K at FAST1 basically, but he was easily the most relevant Falco at the time so I grew to love him and his combos. I tried to play like him but it didn't work for me so I did things my own way.

I tried watching PC's Falco but it seemed odd to me(I always thought too old-school and clunky with Shiz's shiny Falco sitting there but I know better now haha) despite its great accomplishments.

Forward....I really never heard about him LOL so I didn't get into his stuff too much. By the time I found his Falco it just seemed weird compared to what I was doing and watching.

Chops wasn't as big overall back then so I didn't think much of him(though he did teach me to be more aggressive at least vs spacies when I met him at HERB 2 in the summer of 09 and I did grow to start liking his play more some then that would build more later).

I saw Zhu as competition so I guess that's why he didn't inspire me? Among other things anyway. He's intelligent and innovative though.



Things changed the better I got and the less Shiz played lol. Around last year some time I started to like Chops the most because of his crazy innovation and laser techniques. He inspired me to work on my tech chases and really understand my character(something I need to work on more still).

Then Chops basically quit =( but Mango ended up being a fantastic source of inspiration due to his movement and pressure game. While technically not a Falco player, Mango playing a ton of Falco is always inspiring to me and I love the way he makes his game work.


Overall, it's Shiz by far to answer your question easily. =)

*Shiz doesn't inspire so much as interest me these days- small note haha

 

[unknown522]

^ wait. You mean that the great Ryan Ford didn't inspire you?
jk