PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

While said in very....Umbreon terms, he makes a point that I've always kinda wanted to touch on. Learning from someone, in my opinion, is perfectly fine(that is to say you take in their good and throw out their bad all the while putting into your own terms why each is what they are and what they mean to you). It is only when you become reliant on that person for your own creativity or you lose the ability to be creative/free thinking about the game yourself that learning from another creates a "shell" of those abilities you took from the person you were learning from. I think Umbreon may just believe that if one doesn't make it almost entirely on their own then they are crippling themselves in their creative/expansion process.

I should've made a longer post out of that...it's kind of important lol. Oh well maybe it'll get discussion and I'll get to do it anyway. XD

 

[straight8]

im pretty sure we all agree that umbreon is stupid and has never been good at anything. moving on..

also its is creative to learn from someone else.. .... ........ not copy, just learn. w/e

 

[JPOBS]

In more elaborate terms, yes, it goes without saying becoming reliant on another person can hamper your progress and etc. But making absolute statements like "learning from someone means you're strictly worse than them" is simply ********.

 

[Deleted member]

the person who develops an idea will think of it, play with it, sincerely try to make it work because it's their idea. they'll test it, find the best applications for it, and really understand it.

the next person will come along, see it, do it, and not understand all of its intricacies. i would bet any money that someone on this page copies something dr PP does and does it just the same way he does and still gets ***** for it.

@ kage: I highly doubt vwins and bam taught you, say, how to best use ganondorf's dair better than you taught yourself. if they taught you and you are now better than them at that specific skill, that implies some kind of innovation and learning and not just copying. but i don't buy that they showed you how to do something, and without any personal investment you were able to just copy them and be better than them.

edit: you can learn from someone in some vague sense but it's still a less refined skill. the best way to really learn is to teach yourself. it's a big reason why watching videos can't substitute for practice

 

[onionchowder]

So, why do I care so much about Puff experience affecting Mango's play? I believe that it allows Mango to take any character thought to be played a certain way and put a unique Puff player spin on it. Puff, in my opinion, requires a unique skillset(including, as is the case for any floaty, the capacity to read a ton so that one can use their slower characters to maneuver in time with the faster ones). The fact that Mango allows many of his characters a moments pause before acting(especially earlier in his matches, go look for it) or abuses vertical positioning games that most people aren't aware of in his play is something that I feel should really be studied and respected while observing his play. It can also be said that, since he's used to playing such a slow character, that Mango(or any floaty-centered player really) can really manipulate and think through the speed characters like Fox have and control them in a more wholesome way(given time and practice).

Do you think that new players who don't have reading and mindgames down well ought to focus on a slower, floaty character in order to improve more 'wholesomely,' and then work on tech skill and speed and maybe switch to a spacie? Or can a technical spacies player learn to incorporate reading and mindgames?

 

[Veetaak]

the person who develops an idea will think of it, play with it, sincerely try to make it work because it's their idea. they'll test it, find the best applications for it, and really understand it.

the next person will come along, see it, do it, and not understand all of its intricacies. i would bet any money that someone on this page copies something dr PP does and does it just the same way he does and still gets ***** for it.

@ kage: I highly doubt vwins and bam taught you, say, how to best use ganondorf's dair better than you taught yourself. if they taught you and you are now better than them at that specific skill, that implies some kind of innovation and learning and not just copying. but i don't buy that they showed you how to do something, and without any personal investment you were able to just copy them and be better than them.

edit: you can learn from someone in some vague sense but it's still a less refined skill. the best way to really learn is to teach yourself. it's a big reason why watching videos can't substitute for practice

There isn't enough GOOD options for each situation for every falco to do differently. Sometimes there is an option that's clearly better than most others so I don't get why you wouldn't try to mix in good options in your game that you've seen a better player than you do. No one said that watching videos can substitute for practise altough practise is much more handy overall.

 

[Vegard]

So that means 2 years ago when people were rooting for me instead of Mango, it decreased his power level allowing me to win? =P

this is getting old man, you beat him two years ago.. then Mango proceeded to humiliate you with Link. No one's gonna care about that win 2 years ago until you can do it again

 

[Battlecow]

I don't know anything about melee, but it sounded like Intuition was saying "If you respect and learn from someone's playstyle, it will hurt you as a competitor," which isn't right (obviously lol). His clarification sounded better but... Just from a common-sense perspective, isn't seeing a cool technique or mix-up or whatever and then incorporating it into your game useful? Seems to me like you have to find a balance, just like in anything else.

 

[Mahone]

Why do people respond to intuition's posts?

All i see him posting is really obvious stuff or things that are straight up wrong... then for some reason people like druggedfox and pp rephrase what he said in such a way so that they can salvage some sort of useful meaning out of it, but the reality is he is just wrong....

People like intuition are just not capable of respecting and learning from someone while still putting their own twist on it and inventing their own ****.... and of course intuition thinks hes some super smash genius so he just assumes no one else can do something he can't...

I hate to break it to you man, but there are people out there that can respect people and still surpass them... a good example is mango, who respects the hell out of m2k and was influenced by the king and dashizwiz

 

[Rubyiris]

does anyone have advice vs sheik in general? i keep getting ***** by kels' sheik

Hold down a lot. Don't jump if you're in ftilt range.

Utilt combos harder than shine

 

[Mogwai]

Sumarry of strongbad:

Is cute.
Knows stuff àbout smash.

you forgot that he also plays DK.

 

[genkaku]

hey hey, I just thought of something but can't test it out right now.
If fox is riding up the side of FD/yoshi's for the sweetspot, can you just stand on the edge of the stage and tilt a lightshield over the ledge?

 

[Mogwai]

well, you can, but you won't edgehog him the same way you do with marth.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You'll just get burned by the up-b hitbox, right?

 

[Mogwai]

well, basically Fox's upB isn't as disjoint as Marth's. The whole reason it works vs. Marth is that his sword hits way higher than his body, so even when he tries to sweet spot, he nicks your shield a decent bit before he would get the edge, whereas I don't think it's possible for Fox to hit your shield early enough to knock you onto the edge before him without going over the edge and landing on stage anyway.

 

[genkaku]

no, I mean does the impact from hitting the shield interrupt him enough to keep him from grabbing ledge?
Sometimes I lightshield for that impact to establish spacing, so I was wondering if it could be used to interrupt momentum and stopping a wall-riding firefox seems like the most useful application, but I don't know if it works.

 

[mers]

I'm like 99% sure that doesn't work. Hitting the shield doesn't interrupt him in any useful way. There'll be a few frames of hitlag, but that doesn't change the path or outcome of his firefox.

 

[Lightsyde]

Yeah man, light shielding Fox's UpB is great for spacing.

Alternatively, you could try edgeguarding Fox when he UpB's.

smh

EDIT: Mogwai, good to know about the disjoint being the source of that physic. I wonder, does it work against Peach's UpB?

 

[Mogwai]

Yeah man, light shielding Fox's UpB is great for spacing.

Alternatively, you could try edgeguarding Fox when he UpB's.

smh

EDIT: Mogwai, good to know about the disjoint being the source of that physic. I wonder, does it work against Peach's UpB?

Almost all hitboxes are disjoint, some are just more disjoint than others. Anyway, it won't work vs. Peach's up B for the same reason it doesn't work vs. Roy's up B. They both generate multiple hitboxes and thus hit you after you fall off the stage.


Also, Genkaku, you can't make up mechanics like that. That's simply not how Smash physics works.

 

[genkaku]

haha, I was just asking. I knew it would probably not work but wanted to know why it wouldn't and knew that someone would answer that would know. Thanks for the input.

 

[Divinokage]

the person who develops an idea will think of it, play with it, sincerely try to make it work because it's their idea. they'll test it, find the best applications for it, and really understand it.

the next person will come along, see it, do it, and not understand all of its intricacies. i would bet any money that someone on this page copies something dr PP does and does it just the same way he does and still gets ***** for it.

@ kage: I highly doubt vwins and bam taught you, say, how to best use ganondorf's dair better than you taught yourself. if they taught you and you are now better than them at that specific skill, that implies some kind of innovation and learning and not just copying. but i don't buy that they showed you how to do something, and without any personal investment you were able to just copy them and be better than them.

edit: you can learn from someone in some vague sense but it's still a less refined skill. the best way to really learn is to teach yourself. it's a big reason why watching videos can't substitute for practice

Well I mean they taught me what I was doing wrong but then.. I had to find my own ways to deal with that they do to beat them. Ya but I still respect them a lot as players but at the same time I want to beat them and be better than anyone as well. I guess you just need the proper mindset. =P

this is getting old man, you beat him two years ago.. then Mango proceeded to humiliate you with Link. No one's gonna care about that win 2 years ago until you can do it again

It's not old to me, it's my best memory, and it still happened. =) It's simply a check that I can do anything. =P

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you think that new players who don't have reading and mindgames down well ought to focus on a slower, floaty character in order to improve more 'wholesomely,' and then work on tech skill and speed and maybe switch to a spacie? Or can a technical spacies player learn to incorporate reading and mindgames?

Great question! =)

I think that anyone can learn such observation techniques and develop an emphasis on "smart" play on their own with any character, but they're just less inclined to do so with FF'ers. If someone feels limited in that regard then I ABSOLUTELY recommend they pick up a floaty like Jiggz or Peach to learn such observation things and how to slow your game down(or play Brawl lol that works too). I will say though, depending on just how new the player is, that learning a new character early on can hinder your overall growth and make it take longer to learn the basics with your main. Maybe it's better to learn those types of things as soon as possible though.....

I think that you could play a spacie and learn the ability to read on your own, but you would have to make a VERY conscious effort for quite a while(until it becomes second nature) to get those reads and actively continue reading. If that doesn't work or you want to directly speed up the process then a floaty seems like a great option to me, especially since it increases your knowledge of how to fight another character and gives you perception of a very different part of the game you might not otherwise get to experience(even if you consider it less fun initially).


Basically, learn a spacie and get the tech first, then learn the basics with them and continue until you're solid(at least technically, but could be as solid as desired) and want to get smarter/learn another character. Then I'd say focus on a floaty and build them up with your other character as needed. All of that needs to happen only if there's little confidence/desire in ability to develop the smarts with a spacie and/or want to speed the process up.

Playing multiple characters is great anyway. =p

well, you can, but you won't edgehog him the same way you do with marth.

This is a cool discussion.

 

[Mogwai]

for whatever it's worth, the only times other than vs. Marth's upB that I have felt smart for light shield edge hogging are vs. Mario, Doc, Link, and Young Link when they throw a bomb/fireball at the edge to get you away and then you just lightshield the projectile and use it to fall onto the ledge for very conveniently timed invulnerability.

also I can't really remember but I think it works vs. GaW's and Kirby's up Bs too.

 

[genkaku]

What do you use lightshield for beyond edgehogging or escaping shield pressure on a platform?
I'm prone to think that it has more utility than is normally allotted to it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

works for luigi's up b. pretty useful there.

 

[Mogwai]

not if he sweet spots it well. It only works if he does it at a stupid timing. trust me, I try it basically every time I play Pakman and it's never useful.

 

[Stevo]

what you should do though is sit at the edge with the lightshield out to make them go for the sweetspot then at the last second jump on the ledge

 

[Strong Badam]

What do you use lightshield for beyond edgehogging or escaping shield pressure on a platform?
I'm prone to think that it has more utility than is normally allotted to it.

as a DK player, I have to light shield all of the time. there are several reasons to do it (outside of your char having a ****ty normal shield).
sometimes an attack would miss a full shield but hits a lightshield (cuz it's bigger), letting you slide away from their next attack.
can mess up l-cancels (because light shielding is uncommon)
lets you get pushed onto a ledge and then instantly ledgehop an invincible attack during shield pressure.
is overall a fun and awesome mechanic

 

[Mogwai]

just remember that light shielding gives the opposing attack more shield stun, so it's almost impossible to actually punish things when lightshielding.

 

[Pi]

just remember that light shielding gives the opposing attack more shield stun, so it's almost impossible to actually punish things when lightshielding.

'almost impossible' doesn't apply to melee.

i'm only partially being sarcastic here, i light shield a lot w/ samus since her OoS game is pretty limited, and i punish things all the time, in their lag, you just have to get used to the new shield hitstun timing.

 

[Rubyiris]

I light shield a little TOO often with Falco. Probably why my OOS game sucks.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I thought for a while that light shielding DK's up B and then doing something OoS to him was reliable... don't know if it acutally is, though. But they go for the ledge anyways.

 

[Rubyiris]

**** that just kick him.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah just throw moves at him, it should work.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Bait his out of shield bairs then combo him until he cries uncle.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Bait his out of shield bairs then combo him until he cries uncle.

He can OOS bairs when using his up-B?

I believe we're talking about recovery.

 

[Rubyiris]

*****ruse, you doing it wrong. Just kick him. DK sucks. (against Falco, anyways.)

 

[FoxLisk]

word on the street is you can just stand near him and CC - **** his bairs. so just run in and do anything, even if he bairs you out of it you win.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Why would we ever talk about DK's recovery? He doesn't have one!

 

[Rubyiris]

Like I said, just kick him.

**** lasers. Just apply foot.