PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

As far as I know, whether or not they are laying down is irrelevant. The correlation is a result of shine being staled by the time you pillar combo them to a high enough % to start knocking them over. So like if you are just dair shining Fox, I think you can get off 4 dair-shines from 0%, and then he falls over from the 5th dair, and the 5th shine is staled, sending them into the floaty state.

 

[Rubyiris]

Can I.get more critique than just one match of one set vs one person when I linked several?

Or does swf just hate me that much?

 

[Bones0]

I posted my 30 some vids in 4 different threads and only got PP and Unknown to even acknowledge them. lol I will critique at least 1 of your sets if you do one of mine. :D

Ewwww, the quality is really bad. :| I can't really tell what's happening half the time. Do you have any other videos you'd like critiqued, preferably vs. Marth? lol

 

[unknown522]

Parrying skills seem to transfer nicely.

@Unknown

Thanks again for the critique. Quick question: what did you mean when you said "dair platform trap"? Do just mean comboing dair into dair, and is there a certain time when this is better or worse than alternatives like nairing? The ending notes help a lot. I was definitely worried about dash attack, but I'm also just not used to being able to get that close to people when DDing. I'm probably going to do some hardcore grab training. I only attempted 2 grabs, and landed 1 of them... This has been a long-standing problem so hopefully I can just start incorporating it properly.

when I say 'd-air platform trap' I mean when you d-air them onto a platform and knock them down so that you can tech chase them.

Also, it's hard to say about the n-air. Whether it's a better or worse choice is mostly based on their percent and positioning. The part where I said that n-air would've been better was because his percent and position cuz you would've most likely been able to combo it into d-air offstage.

Also, if you want to use more dash attack. I think you can fit it in you game somewhere

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I actually noticed I wasn't using it much. I was working on that the other day and it helps leading into spikes soooooo much.

 

[Rubyiris]

I posted my 30 some vids in 4 different threads and only got PP and Unknown to even acknowledge them. lol I will critique at least 1 of your sets if you do one of mine. :D

Ewwww, the quality is really bad. :| I can't really tell what's happening half the time. Do you have any other videos you'd like critiqued, preferably vs. Marth? lol

All my recent sets vs Tai haven't been recorded due to technical difficulties, so unfortunately no.

Sorry about the quality, though. My good recording settings were reset so THC3 vids are all super garbage.

My HDD also corrupted during the course of THC3 and Smash is Vitamins for Tucson, so the only vids I have up are either super choppy, or me playing noticably badly vs Coty and Axe. D:

I also have some sets vs characters like Samus, but Falcos apparently don't know how to fight her, so last few times I asked for critique nobody was able to say anything more than what I was already doing.

I'll critique your set(s) Friday when I have access to a computer. Comprehensive critique on a smartphone is ****ing difficult.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Can I.get more critique than just one match of one set vs one person when I linked several?

Or does swf just hate me that much?

No offense, but from what I've seen, almost every time anyone has critiqued you, you respond with "I knew that," "that's wrong," "ignore ___, my ___ was off that match," or something to those effects. It's not very good motivation to put forth the effort to critiquing you.

Not trying to be mean, I've just seen it a good amount.

 

[Rubyiris]

You must not have seen recent posts then.

 

[unknown522]

Indeed.

Ruby imma critique your matches next. Then more of bones, since he has too many to watch

 

[Mogwai]

As far as I know, whether or not they are laying down is irrelevant. The correlation is a result of shine being staled by the time you pillar combo them to a high enough % to start knocking them over. So like if you are just dair shining Fox, I think you can get off 4 dair-shines from 0%, and then he falls over from the 5th dair, and the 5th shine is staled, sending them into the floaty state.

it is 100% relevant that they hit the ground. that **** only really happens when you knock someone down, they miss the tech, and you shine. I'm not well versed in the mechanics behind exactly what's happening here and staling might have something to do with it, but I've played enough of this game to know that the floaty, out-of-hitstun state that you send people into after a shine is directly related to hitting them off the ground, typically after they miss a tech. that's why you should always try to follow up with utilt when you're predicting a missed tech.

 

[unknown522]

The hit stun cancel thing happens when a move does 7% damage or less when a character is knocked down. Falco's shine does 8% without stale moves.

That's why moves like jab, some f-tilts (sheik's with stale moves for example), Fox's shine, and raptor boost will make Your hitstun cancel.

Try it out in training mode. Knock down a character and then shine them. It will launch normally. Then try it again, and it probably won't work. (I forget if it needs 2 stales or just one).



Edit: ruby, I watched the first 2 sets. The other 3 are unwatchable. I wanted to post these things before I forget and I'm gonna add more later. Typing a lot is annoying with the phone.

Vs axe:
- you mostly either killed yourself, or took bad recovery options without him giving you incentive to. Going low is bad vs almost any character. Especially if they didn't jump out after you.

- You need to CC vs axe. Pikachu's moves are pretty weak an can be CC'd for a long time. Each time you CC, then that's a free combo.

- you were edgeguarding him inefficiently. D-smash at the edge was a bad choice and also the most common one that you chose. If you miss, then you should get gimped for it.

- it looks like you didn't realize grab was a move until your last stock in the set. Pika can get out of long pressure strings pretty easily with u-air oos. There were a lot of times you could've grabbed him though.

- better combos needed


I'm definitely gonna add time stamps later.

 

[ThatGuy]

Try it out in training mode. Knock down a character and then shine them. It will launch normally. Then try it again, and it probably won't work. (I forget if it needs 2 stales or just one).

IIRC training mode doesn't stale moves, correct? In any case the approach is correct. That 7% fact is pretty interesting.

 

[Wenbobular]

Training mode definitely stales moves ...

 

[unknown522]

Indeed it does. Maybe not in brawl.

But yeah I you want to refresh your moves after, then just SD

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In debug menu stale moves don't happen. That may be what ur thinking of

 

[Squirt]

Mmk I've been having this problem as well. How do I avoid it? just shine before they hit the ground?

 

[JPOBS]

just do any other move instead, usually uptilt for combo purposes.

you can also do sh-> shine bair/dair but then your combo ends after that.

 

[ThatGuy]

Indeed it does. Maybe not in brawl.

But yeah I you want to refresh your moves after, then just SD

Right, might have mixed those up.

 

[whitemountain123]

I've been thinking about shield pressure, and I'm a bit confused about something.

How do (good) ppl decide whether it's better in a certain moment to shine grab, do continued pressure, or just do an immediate retreating aerial (like nair). I'm guessing there are a lot of factors that go into this, but I'm curious to hear other ppl's general thoughts about these.

thx

 

[Mogwai]

spacing and patterns they observe in their opponent's play.

 

[Squirt]

I've been thinking about shield pressure, and I'm a bit confused about something.

How do (good) ppl decide whether it's better in a certain moment to shine grab, do continued pressure, or just do an immediate retreating aerial (like nair). I'm guessing there are a lot of factors that go into this, but I'm curious to hear other ppl's general thoughts about these.

thx

Part of it has to do with damage %. For example I'd rather get a shine off as falco at low percents because I'm better at comboing off a shine than grab, but it's going to take more work to multishine someone in their shield than a simple shinegrab. If they have high damage and I'm trying to pressure near the edge of the stage I'll shine nair more because if it connects it will ko them.

Another thing to consider is what options the player in the shield has. I don't know the actual specs but fox's shine oos is so fast if the timing is right he can fit it in between sloppy shield pressure. I think it comes out in like only a frame once the shield is down.

Another thing to think about: As falco If you can double shine someone while remaining on the ground, players will keep their shield up expecting it. After a few double shines you can almost get a guaranteed shinegrab off in the next shield pressure opportunity because the player might assume you will just double shine them, this forces them to second guess everything, esp if you mix things up.

 

[Warhawk]

spacing and patterns they observe in their opponent's play.

I think stage positioning too has a good effect on it just to add to what you're saying. I know I do different pressure techniques when I have my opponent by a ledge as opposed to near the center of the stage. Also if they're near the edge of a platform you can do different choices based on if you want to push them off of the platform or not.

 

[unknown522]

Sorry guys I was wrong about the no hit stun floaty thing. It's moves that do under 7% that cause it. So if you have 2 stales with the shine then it'll happen

 

[Deleted member]

I've been thinking about shield pressure, and I'm a bit confused about something.

How do (good) ppl decide whether it's better in a certain moment to shine grab, do continued pressure, or just do an immediate retreating aerial (like nair). I'm guessing there are a lot of factors that go into this, but I'm curious to hear other ppl's general thoughts about these.

thx

positioning, innate information, experience converge and a mental ticker says "no don't do this" in a split second.

ie "learned reflexes"

 

[Vaccine]

whats the proper way to shield DI peach's downsmash? and how do i do it? is it as simple as holding away? i always hold my shield towards her cause im scared of exposing my feet and getting shield stabbed.

 

[Rubyiris]

I hold away from her, and di up if I get hit.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Or you can simply light shield in the first place.

 

[Bones0]

Just CC.

 

[whitemountain123]

Shield Pressure:

Thx for the responses!
It makes sense that all of the stuff mentioned, esp positioning, would inform the decision of how to proceed with pressure.

Just CC.

I hear this works really well.

 

[SUNG666]

Or you can simply light shield in the first place.

You get more shield stun when light shielding so you wouldn't be able to retaliate with wd oos shine

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think moving to the platforms is your best bet (ofc dont do it everytime though) when you have lost the mixup @the neutral game vs Peach and allowed her to float at above laser height.

Peach has no float, has to fall awful DJ and once you force her to try to prevent your escaping to the platforms (which is hard since falco is stupidly fast vertically and shes slow) you can start punishing her for that.

Also, camping high top platforms vs marth at higher percents (or very low) is something that you should do a lot imo

@Peach: I have always been slightly confused as to how this will help vs that float height because she will just drop back down once I go up. I'm guessing I should just laser/attack from that platform, but aren't both of those things easy to respond to? Or do I just move around on platforms to force Peach to act and then go down below her and intercept or intercept her on my way down after she attacks(say Uairs)? I guess you're saying I should camp it until she attacks and then tries to prevent it later on, but I want to make sure this is what you're saying.

And I didn't think about high percent platform use vs Marth, but you might be onto something really good there. I like that idea. =)

you're thinking too much. falco shouldn't be on platforms because it's harder to shoot people. falco should be on the ground because it's easier to shoot people. falco is okay on platforms when you don't want to shoot people. this game is hard.

falco used to be 4th on the tier list back in the day. it's clearly because we didn't understand how good falco was and had nothing to do with stages like pokefloats and green greens being legal.

Shooting people is why they go on the platforms and then Falco can't really shoot them. =(

i think falco is really weak from platforms, compared to being just about anywhere else. When I play vs falco's if they are on the platforms and I'm not, I feel like I'm in a good position to wreck him.

Yeah, I agree Falco is stronger on the ground for sure. That's not really what I'm trying to get at though. If certain characters(we'll just say Fox, since he's the best at this) go on the platform, draw Falco up there(even to shoot from far away), then they can go down to the ground on reaction to him moving up, and then they have drawn Falco from his best position and reversed the situation on him. I realize I'm changing what I'm talking about here slightly, but this type of strategy is what makes me think about Falco's overall effectiveness on platforms: both as a strategy(to do to other characters like Peach that can't handle it so well) and as a necessity(to handle characters better at this than Falco).

It seems like, for Mango, platforms open up an entirely new avenue for controlling people. It's probably because I main Peach, but when Falco is on a platform, it's kind of threatening, not so much because of what he can do from them, but what I can't do to him.'

It works for Mango because he can apply tight pressure without them, so he can afford to mix in platform movement to confuse/make people think he's backing off. I just think it works well for him, not sure about whether or not it works for Falco (agaisnt Peach/Puff it's probably really good, cause they jump slow).

It's good for Mango because, as you said, he applies solid ground pressure already. Changing the situation from beside someone to above them is surprising, and coupling that surprise with the fact that Falco can still Dair/Bair/laser from that position is quite effective. I have been playing with that control mixup a little bit and have observed similarly great control/pressure results.

Puff(and Peach too kinda) have slowish jumps and have lower mobility AND don't cover their heads that well(Peach kinda does with Uair which is why she's a kinda). These are the reasons why platform-based strategies/mixups of any kind work well on them.

platforms are MUCH more abusable in the current meta for smash than any other area of innovation because they offer the best situational momentum shifts, and subsequently the best area to expand your aggression and punishment game. what do I mean by that?

my conversation with kevin revealed 2 means of approach for pressure, active and passive. active means you go for it, passive means you don't. with active, you gain the ability for a stronger punish, but you also accept the risk of losing that momentum if it fails. this is an acceptable risk for the most part because it's implied that you only attack from a position of advantage, and you are pressing that advantage. with passive, you miss the stronger punish, but you also lower the risk to lose the position of advantage. in my opinion, passive is better, but i understand both approaches and they are probably equal. knowing which to use in each situation requires finesse and experience.

go back to platforms (or edges). when attacking to a platform from a position of advantage, you are still free to choose active or passive pressure. most players HEAVILY favor active, because the risk of momentum loss perceived is much lower. THIS LINE OF THINKING IS STRICTLY FALSE. disregarding technical proficiency, you are given the same defensive options OOS that you are on the ground with no nearby edges, except +2 more options: you can go OFF the edge from shield via WD, or you can drop directly through it. both changes of positioning offer new angles to catch a lagged or poorly positioned opponent, and the increase of options adds to your flexibility in choosing the correct one, dictated by your ability as a player. both also allow you to gain position without even attacking by being grounded faster. the ability to go from a bad position to a good position IMMEDIATELY is the momentum shift, and the dynamics of it encourage your opponent to misplay the pressure moreso than other similar scenarios. the options near the edge and on platforms are hugely misunderstood or unknown completely and offer huge benefits for the first talented player to abuse them.

my current theory on sheik vs falco is that sheik only has positional advantage when edge guarding. my new strategy is to sit on a platform, bait an aerial attack, and to gain positional advantage by being grounded before falco is. i've had mixed results, but it's new territory for me too.

I rather like passive pressure on platform pressure with Falco because I can't cover that many options with him without predicting kinda hard at times. The ways to do this are also interesting to me/often not straightforward lol.

Lmao that Sheik strategy.....I wonder how much of that I'll be seeing in the future?

How?

Because people are lazy or don't know how to use it?
Something is overrated if people say it is way better then it is. Im not sure if that is what you think but if you does I can clearly tell you that's not the case.

I really wanna see some faster chars use it cause it puts Falco in a really bad position a lot of times because of the grab after a powershield (then Falco is dead). Powershield is by far one of the most underrated techs in this game.

Faster? Which characters do you believe exploit Falco best with powershielding? Marth and Fox I already believe can do this, but which others are you thinking of? Does fast mean this would work well for Falcon or Pikachu too? I don't know much about their shields so I'm not sure if you're taking that into account, if it matters, or whatever lol.

hey falco thread i had a question, what do u guys recomend, a secondry for falco, do u guys think fox is? i mean there alot alike, its just i play falco nothin but falco and i dont wanta get stale lol you kno? i need sum advice plz thanks

Fox is a good secondary for Falco, as is Marth. Really you can just pick whatever character helps you handle bad matchups/stages for a while if you want.

With like 5 min warmup I can honestly powershield ~ 95% of all lasers with Marth vs Armadas falco (which is really good, mixes them up and is aggressive). With good reactions and a little practice its REALLY easy.

Its not at all hard, and the only reason people are bad at it is because they try to read the lasers (it should be 100% reaction) and then get bodied by fake lasers etc. People are really unaware on how powershielding works (lol 1 frame timing?) and how characters hurtboxes work/change during their **** >_>

but whatever, I've just realized that people prefer too be lazy and just whine instead of learning to powershield >_>

How do you think about powershielding lasers in a match? Do you react to the jump, the shot? Do you stay at a certain spacing until you see the laser and then move in and PS?

I'd really like to see videos of you performing this technique. =)

Yeah, you make a good point when you add that Falco vs. Marth isn't even a laser-heavy matchup in the first place. I think if players with other mains adopted PSing as a tool they would see even more benefit from it than Marth, but it would still be in the same fashion. It would be an occasional option, not a strategy to rely on or base your spacing around. I have seen a few Peach and spacies players PS, but for some arbitrary reason it's just ridiculously popular with Marth.

Marth's shield is amazing to PS with lol.

Also, I sometimes have to shoot up Marth quite a bit if he is being stubborn. Lasers depend on the player/instance often and I don't think I'd consider many matchups to have more or less lasers usually. I'd consider matchups to have better times and worse times to use them. I guess one could argue that some matchups could have more times to not use them than others though haha. *shrug

 

[Niko45]

I think Falco should shoot Marth a LOT if he is across stage and not threatening you.

He should also shoot relentlessly when Marth is trying to get off the ledge and smother whatever he attempts to do.

Probably the most invaluable thing about lasers is that no one can just stand there on the other side of the screen and just wait for you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Falco should shoot Marth a LOT if he is across stage and not threatening you.

He should also shoot relentlessly when Marth is trying to get off the ledge and smother whatever he attempts to do.

Probably the most invaluable thing about lasers is that no one can just stand there on the other side of the screen and just wait for you.

If Marth is far across the stage, then he gets more time to set up powershielding. I'd still shoot as Falco, but I don't think I would necessarily spam so much as take stage if I could. This would reduce Marth's ability to easily react to lasers with PS's as well as keep him from controlling the stage.

I like shooting Marth when he's recovering too, but working Bair is also really potent for stuffing the edge dash as well as countering most getups. Mango does the Bair thing a lot vs Marth and Sheik.

Other people can just wait from across the stage imo. If Falco's winning I guess he can just chill there, but he won't actually get any damage off on people adept at handling lasers(or if he does, not anything worth mentioning). I wish there was a modern example of laser camping with Falco, because it's hard for me to know how that would play out exactly. I don't see it being far greater than whatever Mango/myself currently do, but it could be effective in a different way no doubt.

 

[leffen]

lol at shooting a lot of lasers when Marth is far away >_____________<

seriously, are you that bad at powershielding? even if you just hit one ->wd after falco basically lost all of his neutral game because of how the powershielded laser limits him

Thats one of the most important aspects powershielding - Falco no longer has a tool that forces you to approach :o
@PP yeah you got the right idea. Basically peach cannot reach you on platforms easily and although you aren't SUPER STRONG, its an ok neutral game that isn't heavily disadvantaged for you (like when she floats and you're on the ground)
The fact that you have high priority dairs / bairs means that she has to stand under the side platforms (away from the platform you are basically, and since she can't reach the top you'll be on that one 90% of the time). She more or less has to fortfeit some stage control in order to be able to deal with your drop down **** which gives you an easy drop down laser (prevents her floating just as you land, which means she will no longer has the advantage that she had when you went onto the platforms)

sheesh, I've studied the peach matchup too much ;_;

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP yeah you got the right idea. Basically peach cannot reach you on platforms easily and although you aren't SUPER STRONG, its an ok neutral game that isn't heavily disadvantaged for you (like when she floats and you're on the ground)
The fact that you have high priority dairs / bairs means that she has to stand under the side platforms (away from the platform you are basically, and since she can't reach the top you'll be on that one 90% of the time). She more or less has to fortfeit some stage control in order to be able to deal with your drop down **** which gives you an easy drop down laser (prevents her floating just as you land, which means she will no longer has the advantage that she had when you went onto the platforms)

sheesh, I've studied the peach matchup too much ;_;

So you're not worried about her trading Nair with those other moves or the way she WDs and Dsmashes/dash attacks landing lag? That's what Armada does often....how does one force him to go to the side platform? Just be accurate with how I fall so that's his best option? I suppose I'll just have to test it....I never get to play the matchup so I'm just trying to envision how this'll go down lol.

 

[Armada]

PP: Except from the ones you did mention I think Sheik/Luigi/IC/Falcon is all really good. I think Pikas grab range is to bad to be really good to punish Falco good enough. I can see the nair after powershield being a kinda good option though

Sheik/Falcon- Stupid combos from grab and both of them are fast enough to come to the area when you can grab Falco after a powershield a lot of times

Luigi/IC- REALLY good WD and that makes them so fast and grab will be a great option . Don't know if it is much harder to use powershield as Ic beacause they are two but the potential is great. WD powershield wobbling then you are ****ed up.

Basically you need chars that can move fast with running speed/WD maybe even super WD as samus. That makes the stun from Falco long enough to have a free punish. If Wobbles learns this I really wanna see what will happen in Falco vs IC

And you are geting advice from my homies against me? **** you <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey man he offered it I might as well see where the topic goes

but yeah I see what you're saying. I'd like to see some of those faster characters implement powershielding then. Marth's shield is definitely best among the better characters to do this with, but I'd like to see which characters can really change the game vs Falco with it. Especially Falcon, because that could change the matchup a lot if I'm thinking about it correctly. Being able to run circles around Falco again would be pretty good for his tournament viability lol.

 

[unknown522]

Armada said 'homies'.

That's cute

 

[Bl@ckChris]

powershield grab is honestly one of the reasons i'm switching to sheik.

i can powershield pretty freely as ganon, but it's advantages are pretty weak unless you get hit with the laser while you're jumping in and approaching with it.

 

[Niko45]

lol at shooting a lot of lasers when Marth is far away >_____________<

seriously, are you that bad at powershielding? even if you just hit one ->wd after falco basically lost all of his neutral game because of how the powershielded laser limits him

Thats one of the most important aspects powershielding - Falco no longer has a tool that forces you to approach :o

No actually I'm pretty good at it. Subsequently the Falcos I train with are pretty good at dealing with being powershielded. So from a long distance you will just get powershielded back or they might even get a 2nd laser out in time. Even taking space from that distance with a powershield is inconsequential as you could just take lasers and walk from that distance and be in the same position as Marth. Falco should still shoot because he can't be punished off a powershield from there and he establishes good control if not PS'd and at worst is completely neutral if PS'd (as long as he's comfortable with dealing with PSing and doesn't freeze up/miss a beat).

@PP - I'm with you I didn't mean to suggest spamming lasers although I phrased it badly but using lasers to take space is good there I think and then you can establish threatening zones/bait marth to commit to things under your pressure etc.