GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Yeah, restate that in english please. It sounded like you were requesting for Low and Bottom Tier characters to continue to be unviable, which would be laughable.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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I R MarF
Smash Ace
Hey, is there any chance rar can be removed from certain chars? For instance, I don't think Falco needs RAR.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I've thought about this too.
Its unappealing for me to see Fox and other top tier characters with so many options they didn't have in Melee.
RAR, Any input while ledge hopping, vBrawl pivot grabs, glide toss, grabbing the ledge backwards, AGT and such.
It'll change how they're played. Marth doesn't need to grab the ledge backwards from up-b. I especially don't wanna see MK, Sonic, Marth, or Fox rock people with vBrawl pivot grabs.
If these AT's could be kept on the crappier characters who needed to be buffed like Link, Bowser, Ness etc, then it'd be nice.
This is balance phase stuff though, but its food for thought.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Pivot grabs will be kept. We are not removing them. Same with RAR.
D
Deleted member
Guest
That's not what I R Marf or I said.
Removing them from certain characters only was the point of our posts.
I've talked to people around here about PM and what they like/dislike about it. Some of the complaints were that Melee characters especially the top tier would have extra vBrawl ATs like glide tossing or RAR.
Instead of dismissing this, it might be better to note this for when the balance phase rolls around.
my problem with RAR is that character with a good Bairs will get a significant boost to their edge guarding
like fox/falco can just run across the stage and RAR Bair instead of having to shine>turnaround>JCshine>Bair
or Falcon RAR to reverse knee instead of having to moonwalk
i hope the devs see the significance of these small things because it does have a big impact on the "feel" of Melee
Edit: look at Marth for an instance, his bair has more knockback than his Fair
like fox/falco can just run across the stage and RAR Bair instead of having to shine>turnaround>JCshine>Bair
or Falcon RAR to reverse knee instead of having to moonwalk
i hope the devs see the significance of these small things because it does have a big impact on the "feel" of Melee
Edit: look at Marth for an instance, his bair has more knockback than his Fair
D
Deleted member
Guest
It will skew what you're trying to balance.
The bar will be raised with the best characters getting more options. Fox won't be Melee Fox anymore, he'll be even better off with those ATs.
The bar will be raised with the best characters getting more options. Fox won't be Melee Fox anymore, he'll be even better off with those ATs.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
I thought the P:M team was already fixing reverse grabs... except chars from melee who had them (Fox, Falco, Falcon, Link, etc.) and a few others (like Kirby). But if what you are saying is true, I'm dissapointed.
And in regards to the pivot grab, idk if they are all that helpful with JC grabs back. Only tether grabbers will get mileage out of them.
However, for the most part, I agree with you and believe that brawl ATs should be left to to lower tiers in an effort to preserve the high tier meta game. I was watching one of JC's tourney vids with a Toon Link RARing arrows and disturbing thoughts of a Falco playing HARDCORE DEFENSIVELY began to invade my mind.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I don't claim to know the BR's plan for all the ATs. Don't take my word as gospel.
Its just a voiced concern on the topic of discussion.
Its just a voiced concern on the topic of discussion.
FireBall Stars
Smash Ace
How can you Reverse Aerial Rush an Arrow?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
You do a RAR and B reversal. Also, I meant that we will not remove RAR, Glide Tossing, Aerial Gliding Toss, or any other brawl AT for any character. If an AT is universal, it will be kept universal.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Just fyi, you could already reverse any B move in Melee.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
Really? Momentum too?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Yes, you just didn't retain as much momentum as brawl does.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
No, but you said RARing, which is just shooting backwards without changing momentum. That's what I meant.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
Really? I didn't know that.
Regardless, its increased strength in brawl will buff characters who don't need more gameplay options.
I thought RARing kept momentum? If I'm wrong, I believe you... I'm not very Brawl savvy...
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Hold on I think we're getting mixed up.
In every Smash game, you can do retreating lasers/arrows by running, jumping, moving the stick back, releasing, and pressing B.
RARing is running and doing a jump backwards, but keeping momentum in the same direction you were running. You can use this in Brawl/P:M as an easier way to do retreating lasers/arrows. Also in Brawl/P:M, you can do a normal running jump into a B-Reversal arrow/laser which switches your momentum in mid-air.
In every Smash game, you can do retreating lasers/arrows by running, jumping, moving the stick back, releasing, and pressing B.
RARing is running and doing a jump backwards, but keeping momentum in the same direction you were running. You can use this in Brawl/P:M as an easier way to do retreating lasers/arrows. Also in Brawl/P:M, you can do a normal running jump into a B-Reversal arrow/laser which switches your momentum in mid-air.
FireBall Stars
Smash Ace
That was confusing me as well.
But btw, you can't do that in 64, there you need to hold the opposite direction to make you character turnaround in midair while doing the standard special.
But btw, you can't do that in 64, there you need to hold the opposite direction to make you character turnaround in midair while doing the standard special.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
Alright, lol thats what I figured RARing was.
But yeah, retreating projectiles doesn't concern me. Giving high tiers like Falco RARing kinda does. It can be used as a powerful defensive tool as well as a very fast defensive to offensive transition. IMO, he doesn't need a buff like that.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
This still doesn't make any sense. I can't see many way's it buffs defense any different than reverse lasing does. It has the same outcome. The only buff is being able to approach with bair which makes it more of an offensive tool only. Very fast defensive to offensive transition will in no way happen from being able to RAR. You shoud be more worried about not getting shined
(*obvious statement) it also allows you to reverse grab while in full running animation where in Melee u were only able to do it out of initial dash ( might not be a big issue)
but the RAR Bair really turns me away =/
would it be possible to make it so u can't jump out of RAR? (i know it consists of jumping but im talking about the fact that u can turn around during running animation)
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
HOW ABOUT U WAIT TIL U TRY IT BEFORE U START THEORYSMASHiNG
JOE!
Smash Hero
How about you learn to type correctly and realize 90% of us cannot try it and can only resort to theorycraft to get issues accross?
Anywho, I know Snake and Yoshi got lighter/heavier respectivley, are there plans for changing anyone else's attributes?
JCaesar
Smash Hero
If in any of our testing being able to RAR bair came anywhere close to breaking a character or being a detriment to the game in any way, we would remove it. But it hasn't.
u guys need to understand that just because something offers more options, it doesn't necessarily make it good for this project
look at Link's grounded up-b for instance.....being able to charge it gives more options but you guys removed it right? why?......for the Melee feel
look at Link's grounded up-b for instance.....being able to charge it gives more options but you guys removed it right? why?......for the Melee feel
Dantarion
Smash Champion
I believe this particular change was because if we made it chargeable, it needed to be weak enough uncharged to justify charging it, and strong enough charged to justify charging it, and as the move already had a decent power and use that work in Melee, and saw almost no use in Brawl, the Melee version was adopted.
I find it interesting how people want us to remove random things with the basis of "it wasnt in Melee".
For example, reverse grabbing during special fall. Now, a lot of people will be like "omg, it makes recovery and edgeguarding EZ mode" but to be honest, how often in Melee do you fall past the edge while in specialfall, facing the wrong way?
Almost never. This change doesn't really affect gameplay that much, although it does give a couple of characters a risky trick to use when edgeguarding, and helps some characters recover from under the stage (lucas is a good example of a character who may have to aim his up+b to avoid hitting the stage, and then DI backwards and grab the ledge)
Please don't argue with "it wasnt/was in Melee". Melee is a good game, but there are reasons for that. Everything in Melee wasnt golden, if there wasnt any room to improve, Project M wouldnt exist at all.
Blindly copying Melee and ripping out any shred of Brawl is not the goal of this project.
No.... the charge made it slower and ****tier <_< It also justified it being weaker at base power (uncharged).
That's a bad example. Sorry.
i don't want any threads getting closed down so i'll give it a rest lol
....but i hope some of you see my points
@Dant
i have never used "it wasn't in Melee"
i singularly take mechanics and look at them from a competitive stance
....but i hope some of you see my points
@Dant
i have never used "it wasn't in Melee"
i singularly take mechanics and look at them from a competitive stance
Ya i understand but seriously.. i hated that charge with a passion..
I'm sure if it proves to be detrimental to the overall metagame, they'll fix it.
Well, Project M is "based" on Melee. It is not Melee. In other words, it's being tweaked. Thngs that are good in other installements hav eno reasons to be removed. And things that didn't work in Melee have no reason to stay. Ness was pretty bad in Melee. Making him a clone of his Melee counterpart woulf make him werak, thus they tweaked him. THat just one example.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
I have nothing against RAR or other brawl ATs I'm just concerned about them buffing chars who don't need them. (Falco, Fox, Marth, etc.)
Also, reverse grabs shouldn't be universal. Only Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganon, Link, Young Tink, Bowser, DK, Ness, Lucas, Wolf?, Ike, and Kirby should have one.
Yeah, having reverse grabs doesn't make recovering EZ mode... but correct spacing (whether its offense, defense, edgeguard, or recovery) is a skill and reverse grabs do detract from that a bit by making recovering more forgiving.
Also, when Dant says "reverse grabbing during special fall", does this apply to air dodges too? If thats the case, recovering will have definitely gotten safer.
Also, reverse grabs shouldn't be universal. Only Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganon, Link, Young Tink, Bowser, DK, Ness, Lucas, Wolf?, Ike, and Kirby should have one.
Yeah, having reverse grabs doesn't make recovering EZ mode... but correct spacing (whether its offense, defense, edgeguard, or recovery) is a skill and reverse grabs do detract from that a bit by making recovering more forgiving.
Also, when Dant says "reverse grabbing during special fall", does this apply to air dodges too? If thats the case, recovering will have definitely gotten safer.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Hmm, can anyone disclose the (current) areas in which bowser gains Super Armor?
Just curious is all.
Just curious is all.
Demon-oni
Smash Journeyman
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@ I R Marf
I don't quite see how reverse ledge grabbing will make recovering any more forgiving. Except for maybe the characters that have gliding, i don't see many characters trying to recover to the stage with the help of the reverse grab in any way due to general recovery nerfs (upped gravity, ect). The only way it helps is some kind of risky option with your up b near the ledge as some kind of edge guard, and that can easily blow up in your face.
Also, I never have been in a situation where i air dodged facing away from the ledge where i would have been high enough to catch it in the first place. This situation usually happens from a mis - input of a wavedash or improper position of using a wavedash to edge hog, and you would usually miss the edge from this even if you are facing forward.
I don't quite see how reverse ledge grabbing will make recovering any more forgiving. Except for maybe the characters that have gliding, i don't see many characters trying to recover to the stage with the help of the reverse grab in any way due to general recovery nerfs (upped gravity, ect). The only way it helps is some kind of risky option with your up b near the ledge as some kind of edge guard, and that can easily blow up in your face.
Also, I never have been in a situation where i air dodged facing away from the ledge where i would have been high enough to catch it in the first place. This situation usually happens from a mis - input of a wavedash or improper position of using a wavedash to edge hog, and you would usually miss the edge from this even if you are facing forward.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
kaizo i've played falco alot in pm and trust me... it has the melee feel and doesn't feel out of place at all. The applications aren't too much different from a shine turn except that u keep more momentum and as far as it being a buff it really isn't even that good... i would rather use another approach. Its only good to mindgame DI during combos vs fastfallers imo
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