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Project M Social Thread

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I R MarF

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That's correct.
Thank goodness.

...but tbh I think catering to anti-L-Cancellers (even the slightest) is a bad idea.

First off, people who want automatic lag reduction need to realize that pressing a button as you land isn't that hard to do and is hardly taxing; nor is it unnecessary depth. What IS unnecessary is making it so everyone's landing lag is reduced by half which is basically the same as having no lag reduction at all. To me, it seems to be a cheap way to make the game seem faster and allowing everyone to be "good"

Secondly, people will put up combo videos with their "amazing L-Cancelling skills" up on youtube all of the time. Sure, you can fix this issue by removing the white flash for ALR code but once P:M is mainstream a lot of people will be fooled.

And thirdly, it may seem you are encouraging a broader audience but I have a bad feeling you will end up encouraging a split crowd; one side will want ALR to be the official P:M standard, while the other side will call the ALR enthusiasts noobs. It might seem that being liberal and having options will get the most attention but you need to keep your pimp hand strong while you still have one. Believe me, if you force people to play by your rules they'll come around and follow them.

It certainly isn't my project but I beg you to limit your options to unimportant things like vertex hacks and stages. When P:M comes out it will be the king of brawl mods and its popularity will have the "cant beat 'em join 'em" effect; thus, it will ultimately dissolve the anti-L-cancellers to a Brawl+ cult following and a handful of whiners.

I am probably overreacting but I just had to say this.

/endrant
 

a nub

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Auto lcancels would also eliminate the use of shield angling to screw with the opponent's l cancel timing, not a good thing. The majority want it manual and the devs agree. This should probably be added to the FAQ (unless it's there and I just never noticed lulz)


L canceling is a completely arbitrary tech to up the learning curve. All it does is make it so people who spend time practicing a stupid and arbitrary tech feel superior to someone who hasn't. It is the illusion of skill. Sadly, this is Project melee so it's not going anywhere. It's already been stated several times that no matter how much better auto lag reduction may be it will not be the standard for P:M. So it's pointless to argue over it.
Sounds like you don't want to have to mix up your shield pressure and avoid dash dances messing up your timing. This isn't meant to be easy mode smash aka barlw
 

Strong Badam

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There is a question in the FAQ specifically aimed toward those who want Aerial Lag Reduction.
 

john!

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There is a question in the FAQ specifically aimed toward those who want Aerial Lag Reduction.
and i gave a very specific answer...

a simple "no" to aerial lag reduction just doesn't cut it for me, sorry.
...because i have the decency to read the entire post. the two most compelling arguments are the ones about shield angling (which makes it a 2 player game instead of l-canceling just being an unneeded 1-player tech) and the comment about the pimp hand. i still question your motives, but i'll leave it alone because clearly it's a touchy subject and you are hesitant to consider other possibilities.
 

FrozenHobo

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and i gave a very specific answer...



...because i have the decency to read the entire post. the two most compelling arguments are the ones about shield angling (which makes it a 2 player game instead of l-canceling just being an unneeded 1-player tech) and the comment about the pimp hand. i still question your motives, but i'll leave it alone because clearly it's a touchy subject and you are hesitant to consider other possibilities.
i see what you did there, trying to make the backroom sound closed minded to new ideas. point is, you aren't in the backroom. you don't know what discussions consist of. therefore, to make demands and vague passive-agressive comments won't really get you far... or anywhere... at all. do you see what i'm saying here?
 

Grim Tuesday

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i see what you did there, trying to make the backroom sound closed minded to new ideas. point is, you aren't in the backroom. you don't know what discussions consist of. therefore, to make demands and vague passive-agressive comments won't really get you far... or anywhere... at all. do you see what i'm saying here?
Well it certainly SEEMS that way. Every time a new idea is brought up that they disagree with it's always "No, we don't even need a reason why, we just dislike the idea. Oh, and any further discussion of said idea is completely banned because we won't change our minds no matter how good the argument is".

That's just the vibe I get from you guy's posts.
 

stingers

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the BR is an oligarchy and most of the people in it don't really do anything so they cant give constructive feedback...so just ignore the rude answers, they're from the more bitter members
 

Strong Badam

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While I have the time, I suppose I'll compose an actual answer to your query, john!. The problem with actually answering such things is that I end up spending more time typing out answers to the never ending stream of questions than I do actually working on the game.
i'm sure this has been discussed before, but could you please explain or link me to an explanation of why you're needlessly increasing the learning curve for a new game that you hope gains a large audience? a simple "no" to aerial lag reduction just doesn't cut it for me, sorry.
From the FAQ:
What is the goal of Project M?
Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:
1) A fast-paced game
2) with flowing, organic movement
3) where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
4) The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
5) Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding due to ledge techs.
6) Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
7) The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.
Aerial Lag Reduction would help with goals 1, 2, and 4.
Manual L-Canceling help us to achieve goals 1-4 and 7.

One might argue that Manual L-Canceling is arbitrary, that there is never a reason not to L-Cancel. This is a true statement, and yet does little to argue against the idea of Manual L-Canceling. We don't want there to be a reason not to L-Cancel. Consider the following query:
Is there ever a reason not to Jump-Cancel grab?
No, there isn't. Does that matter? No. Universal Advanced Techniques in general add depth to the game competitively. Players can be punished due to error in execution in Project M; if Aerial Lag Reduction was included instead of Manual L-Canceling, there would be much fewer cases of this.
In order for a technically demanding competitive game to thrive, players need to be separated by technical skill. It doesn't matter how intelligently Billy Bob Joe plays if he doesn't L-Cancel properly, because Magic Sandwich can win by SHFFLing nairs with Fox in a semi-intelligent manner to punish the laggy aerials that Billy Bob Joe will eventually need to perform.
Now, technical skill is obviously not the only factor separating players. Character knowledge, stage knowledge, prediction, smart play, etc. all play into a player's skill. Technical demand is one aspect, however, that needs to remain at a high level in comparison to competitive Melee.
Earlier you mentioned that L-Canceling is a 1-player technique. The same can be said about Dash-Dancing and Wavedashing, and yet they had a huge amount of depth to the game. Should those be automated, as well?

You say that Manual-L-Canceling arbitrarily increases the learning curve and technical demand of the game. In what other ways do you propose the learning curve and technical demand of the game be increased, then? Perhaps the Back Room would be more receptive to the idea of Aerial Lag Reduction if there were other ways in which the technical demand/learning curve would be increased.
Then again, perhaps not. Manual L-Canceling is a huge part of Melee, and this is Project M. Our target audience is primarily competitive Melee players, do keep in mind.
 

Strong Badam

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jc grabs are slower then dash grabs on startup...
Only true for Peach, Ice Climbers, Yoshi, and Samus (whose grab hitbox lasts 10 frames longer when JC'd). For all other characters, it is at least 1 frame quicker to JC grab, and has 10 frames less endlag.
 

Shell

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You can argue L-canceling all day, but the bottom line is that most all Melee vets enjoy L-canceling. Once you get it down it just feels good. Take it out and you feel like something's missing. Also, L-canceling through hitlag does take a bit of thought and practice.
 

shanus

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Well it certainly SEEMS that way. Every time a new idea is brought up that they disagree with it's always "No, we don't even need a reason why, we just dislike the idea. Oh, and any further discussion of said idea is completely banned because we won't change our minds no matter how good the argument is".

That's just the vibe I get from you guy's posts.
This hyperbole is completed unfounded. A lot of people answer the same question probably 100 times each, and thus choose the concise method of response as compared to a long and detailed answer (just keeping this thread in control can be quite time consuming for some people!). To put it bluntly, most ideas are not sound for the generation of a competitive product like: omg give a character this or this needs to be done or I won't play Project M. All the ideas that go through this thread are filtered, and certain key gems make it through. One part of this discussion triggered ideas on new applications to footstools as an example. Another example is on Ike's sideB JC. Just because we don't listen to some ideas doesn't mean we don't listen at all. It's that simple.
 

Grim Tuesday

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This hyperbole is completed unfounded. A lot of people answer the same question probably 100 times each, and thus choose the concise method of response as compared to a long and detailed answer (just keeping this thread in control can be quite time consuming for some people!). To put it bluntly, most ideas are not sound for the generation of a competitive product like: omg give a character this or this needs to be done or I won't play Project M. All the ideas that go through this thread are filtered, and certain key gems make it through. One part of this discussion triggered ideas on new applications to footstools as an example. Another example is on Ike's sideB JC. Just because we don't listen to some ideas doesn't mean we don't listen at all. It's that simple.
I understand what you mean, It's just that I have seen so many ideas in the last few pages which seem reasonable and are just being completely shut down without a second's hesitation.

Like a lot of the ideas for Link.
 

Kink-Link5

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My only comment on L-canceling, since hopefully the argument will end soon only to come up again next Sunday


People still make mistakes. RockCrock misses Ledgetechs. Mango misses rests. Gimpy misses the ledge out of WF. M2K misses L-Cancels. M2K MISSES L-Cancels. Just because it is "always" beneficial to use it (It actually isn't every time for some characters' aerials as their Landing Lag animations have them lower to the ground then they are when crouching) doesn't mean players won't make mistakes. We're talking about humans here, not bots.
 

TLMSheikant

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Im glad ALR isnt going to be used, its one of the things that put me off from playing brawl +. The other being buffer, but ive grown to like it as an option. Btw, how are the melee stages going?
 

Shadic

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I understand what you mean, It's just that I have seen so many ideas in the last few pages which seem reasonable and are just being completely shut down without a second's hesitation.

Like a lot of the ideas for Link.
Uh wut? I haven't seen a single idea for Link in the last.. Four or so pages? And I'm on the highest amount of posts per page.
 

.Fade

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Uh wut? I haven't seen a single idea for Link in the last.. Four or so pages? And I'm on the highest amount of posts per page.
Go back about six pages, you'll find a variety of posts about arrow angling, cucco bombs, boomerang hitboxes, and many of the like. Trust me, it happened. =]
 

Sterowent

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All the ideas that go through this thread are filtered, and certain key gems make it through. One part of this discussion triggered ideas on new applications to footstools as an example. Another example is on Ike's sideB JC. Just because we don't listen to some ideas doesn't mean we don't listen at all. It's that simple.
feelin pretty good over here about now.
 

SymphonicSage12

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Arrow angling = a good idea that WASN'T shut down. It was just not taken into enough consideration. It's not like they were like NO. NO. etc.

cucco bombs= a pointless idea that would be a stupid gimmick, and I believe StrongBad gave a resounding no to it. So I guess that one was shut down..

boomerang hitboxes ARE BEING CONSIDERED. They were not shut down.
 

Kink-Link5

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Rewatched Hbox videos.

Jigglypuff's physics are different even though values were ported exactly from Melee.

The difference is how those physics act in the game itself. In Melee, during her double jumps, Jiggz had less air maneuverability than when they were over (Or canceled, such as with an attack) or when she uses her grounded jumps. This physic is what causes Melee WoP to weave in and out precisely when Jiggz attacks. In all hacked versions of Brawl that give her better air maneuverability, the maneuverability is constant, causing her WoP to look more like Wario's spacing since she can weave in and out while double jumping, instead of only when she throws out her attack. The difference is not subtle at all for people who are accustomed to the unique aspects her DJ has in Melee.
 

Archangel

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If for some reason Most of Links Ideas are shut down and he just ends up kinda mediocre. Perhaps could get an effect like Peach has. I mean Peach has stitchface, Dot eyes, Bomb, Mr. Saturn, & Beam sword. Perhaps Link could pull out a different color bomb every once in awhile. Make them at least somewhat threatening.
 

shanus

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arrow angling as far as I know is completely infeasible to do from a coding standpoint currently.

boomerang hitboxes are under active discussion

Considering several posts have been copypasta'd from here into Link's PMBR thread, I don't think things are being so actively ignored GrimTuesday.
 

.Fade

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Rewatched Hbox videos.

Jigglypuff's physics are different even though values were ported exactly from Melee.

The difference is how those physics act in the game itself. In Melee, during her double jumps, Jiggz had less air maneuverability than when they were over (Or canceled, such as with an attack) or when she uses her grounded jumps. This physic is what causes Melee WoP to weave in and out precisely when Jiggz attacks. In all hacked versions of Brawl that give her better air maneuverability, the maneuverability is constant, causing her WoP to look more like Wario's spacing since she can weave in and out while double jumping, instead of only when she throws out her attack. The difference is not subtle at all for people who are accustomed to the unique aspects her DJ has in Melee.
Wait, so in short? When does she have more/less maneuverability? I'm confused =/
 

Archangel

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Please tell me you got the other matches too. Like the Matches with Hax$?

Also I was wondering about the 3,2,1, Go! Audio. Is there anyway to make it the 3, 2, 1, Quit Life! Audio from Genesis crews?
 

Kink-Link5

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Wait, so in short? When does she have more/less maneuverability? I'm confused =/
In Melee- When Jigglypuff inflates she loses air maneuverability. When she uses a single jump, or uses an aerial out of her double jump, her air maneuverability is normal.

Alternative VERY short: Jigglyuff has less air maneuverability while double jumping. You can test this for yourself if my explanation doesn't make enough sense.

In all hacks of brawl that "fix" her air maneuvering problems- Jigglypuff constantly has high air maneuverability.
 

Shadic

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Go back about six pages, you'll find a variety of posts about arrow angling, cucco bombs, boomerang hitboxes, and many of the like. Trust me, it happened. =]
As Shanus and Sage have said already:
Arrow Angling - 90% impossible to do fluidly.
Cucco Bombs - Dumb.
Boomerang hitboxes - Being discussed.

Don't act like everything is being ignored when you don't know. ;) The only idea that was flat-out rejected was the Cucco one, and that's because this isn't Brawl-, and is near impossible to code in the first place.

We're not ignoring Link. I am a Link main and I'm not going to let it happen. Even without me, it would not happen. Remember, we've got a cast of close to 40 characters, not everybody can go first. We've also got some Melee pros chiming in with some feedback in the PMBR. Just because we're stuck being busy in this thread by debunking stupid claims and repeating arguments we've had semiweekly for the last four months, doesn't mean business isn't being done behind the curtains - though sometimes it may slow things down. :smash:
 

Sora-kun

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=_= i'm kinda late but i wanna say anyway;

auto L cancel is brawl+. that's why i hate brawl+ is because it has no L-cancelling and i don't need to work to achieve my speed. you say putting in auto lag reduction would appeal to a "broader audience" but that would make it brawl+ with melee air dodge... annnnd i probably wouldn't even bother with project M if it started being dumbed down... and i fail at melee. thus it wouldn't appeal to a bigger audience because i'm sure a lot of melee players wouldn't play this if it had auto l cancels. <_< and i love L-cancelling because it's fun.

sneak: LRN2PRESSBUTTONS

ok anyway, thanks shadic pleaaaase don't let him get cucco bombs or any stupid **** e.e i'd be pissed as all hell. i trust you man <_<

ok so, the discussion about his rang.. is it for either replacing windboxes with hitboxes, one hit on the way back, or hitboxes annd windboxes for the ultimate rang of death?
 

I R MarF

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Rewatched Hbox videos.

Jigglypuff's physics are different even though values were ported exactly from Melee.

The difference is how those physics act in the game itself. In Melee, during her double jumps, Jiggz had less air maneuverability than when they were over (Or canceled, such as with an attack) or when she uses her grounded jumps. This physic is what causes Melee WoP to weave in and out precisely when Jiggz attacks. In all hacked versions of Brawl that give her better air maneuverability, the maneuverability is constant, causing her WoP to look more like Wario's spacing since she can weave in and out while double jumping, instead of only when she throws out her attack. The difference is not subtle at all for people who are accustomed to the unique aspects her DJ has in Melee.
If you are right I hope Jiggs returns to her Melee style of air movement while the "aerial dash dancing" can be reserved for Wario.
 

[TSON]

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ok anyway, thanks shadic pleaaaase don't let him get cucco bombs or any stupid **** e.e i'd be pissed as all hell. i trust you man <_<
Lol are you trying to make us all sound like idiots? We wouldn't let that in... Even the non-Link-mainers.

ok so, the discussion about his rang.. is it for either replacing windboxes with hitboxes, one hit on the way back, or hitboxes annd windboxes for the ultimate rang of death?
I don't think we'll be keeping windboxes.
 

Sora-kun

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Lol are you trying to make us all sound like idiots? We wouldn't let that in... Even the non-Link-mainers.


I don't think we'll be keeping windboxes.


nah i was being dramatic. i know you guys wouldn't let it in <_<

alright. so multi hit is a possibility?
 

GP&B

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Out of curiosity and egotistical purposes, did my post about Link hitbox comparisons get copied? Or was that information already quite accessible?
 

Shadic

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So what about the Bomb Idea I posted? Has that been copied and paced also?:bee:
Gimme a link/quote to what you're talking about. Lots of things have been proposed.

ok anyway, thanks shadic pleaaaase don't let him get cucco bombs or any stupid **** e.e i'd be pissed as all hell. i trust you man <_<
Link isn't going to be stupid. By the end of it, you should hopefully see an interesting mix of 64/Melee/Brawl Link, basically with the better aspects of each.. Probably without the hilariously awesome disjointed hitboxes of the 64 incarnation, though. :(

For the boomerang:
Multihit is currently in. I don't really like it, but whatever. I'd like to get some good Links commenting on the boomerang before anything significant is done with it, but I'd like something more like the N64 'rang. I need to do some testing in the area though, and I'll be a bit busy with reconstructing my computer in the next few days. The windboxes are 95% staying out, though. I think that's a good bet to say about windbox. :V

Out of curiosity and egotistical purposes, did my post about Link hitbox comparisons get copied? Or was that information already quite accessible?
Gimme a link/quote the post you're talking about.
 

Sora-kun

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I'm a good link D:

LET ME COMMENT ON IT! PLLZZZ

eh.. nvm e.e

edit: what about it do you not like? curious. does it feel wierd? mess up your setups? less efficient than one hit?

also, can you guys keep the wind on it w/o the windboxes? the wind is kewl imo <_< or are you removing it and making it a normal looking rang?

actually.. removing the wind could be cool.. could make my boomerang texture stand out more..
 

grim mouser

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Also, if data can now be directly imported from Melee, does that mean Marth will have his former range? That would rock...

Finally, I notice Melee SFX. Since this requires Riivolution, what will be lost in the shift from using the File Patch and the other old methods, if anything?
Repost. Forgive me if both have been answered; if so, kindly point out the page (or page range) I should read through.
 
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