Project M Social Thread

[Grim Tuesday]

That's because they are annoyed they have to put effort into learning some new mechanics that they are unfamiliar with.

It's like when noobs get pissed at people wave-dashing.

 

[Archangel]

no. and besides, it's stupid to make a tier list for unreleased characters or the demo right now as the patch isn't out as it will make a huge difference in gameplay.

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

Or alternatively with their experience and expertise in Melee they have insight upon how the game will work with these mechanics.

But they're just scrubs johning up a storm right?

Who cares if Marth could feasibly CG Fox/Falco to the edge of FD/Smashville no matter where they DI due to vBrawl pivot grabs?

Or Sheik becoming even better at edgeguarding the cast with wall cling?

Nobody who makes criticism could ever have a legitimate claim and reasoning behind it could they?


Edit: You're talking about Melee players.

If there's cool difficult ATs we just about **** our pants in joy. We dont mind.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why would clinging onto a wall as Sheik be any better than holding onto the ledge? o_O I also believe this was tested.

CAN Marth feasibly chain-grab Fox/Falco to the edge of FD no matter where they DI? That seems like one of the most obvious things to test, so I'm sure the devs have it sussed.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would clinging onto a wall as Sheik be any better than holding onto the ledge? o_O

CAN Marth feasibly chain-grab Fox/Falco to the edge of FD no matter where they DI?

I have no definitive evidence of why it would be better in theory, but the mere idea that buffing one of the best characters in Melee should be enough to be cautious about implementing such an idea.

Both ideas still need testing for proof. I'm just here to convey conservative doubts of these ATs.

 

[Archangel]

Why would clinging onto a wall as Sheik be any better than holding onto the ledge?

Are you serious?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yep, please explain.

Cause I can't really see how hanging on the ledge to both give yourself invincibility, more options (you can't do get-up rolls/attacks out of a wall-cling) and edge-hog the opponent is inferior to the alternative, except possibly in some crazy situational event that requires you to cling onto a wall that is really low down to get the KO.

 

[Shadic]

I have no definitive evidence of why it would be better in theory, but the mere idea that buffing one of the best characters in Melee should be enough to be cautious about implementing such an idea.

Sheik has had a nerfed chaingrab, though. Instead of a straight buff, it was more of a "give and take."

And Falcon has been dropping in the tier list as the Melee metagame has progressed. A bit more flexible of a recovery and a Falcon Kick almost worth using isn't going to push him past the spacies.

 

[Metmetm3t]

jumping out of wall cling requires:
1. you to jump up and away from the stage
2. you to wait on the laggy wall kick animation
I've tried, it's not an advantage

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thanks Darkmetroid.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not here to argue if the AT in question should or shouldn't be applied to specific characters.

Instead, I'm just saying that the group of smashers that discuss PM in my area prefer a conservative approach and view of the mod.

I think the PM BR should get more opinions of hardcore Melee players with a mass survey or something. It'd probably go a long way to help you guys and I'm sure you could use sampling of opinions from players with great expertise instead of the more niche, unskilled audience that frequents this thread.

 

[sffadsad]

I'm not here to argue if the AT in question should or shouldn't be applied to specific characters.

Instead, I'm just saying that the group of smashers that discuss PM in my area prefer a conservative approach and view of the mod.

I think the PM BR should get more opinions of hardcore Melee players with a mass survey or something. It'd probably go a long way to help you guys and I'm sure you could use sampling of opinions from players with great expertise instead of the more niche, unskilled audience that frequents this thread.

Couldn't you relay back to them the counterpoints that other people are giving? That may help with getting their concerns actually discussed and addressed.

They also have plenty of opinions of melee top players. Although not publicly released I'm pretty sure they have asked very notable mains their takes on what the characters need changed or kept the same, and from what I've seen the PMBR also more often then not actually addresses the points of the casuals and counters them rather than blindly following them.

 

[Archangel]

Will there is a will there is a gay. No thats not a misprint. Someone always finds a way to do something gay if they have to pull it out of thin air somehow.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPUH7Ij8MA


Melee players are smart and when there is money on the line people will use anything to win....the most dangerous thing wall cling could provide is stalling.

more importantly what is going to become of Sheik's Side-b? If cling gets removed surely they could either give her a tether ledge grab back or just make the side-b useful/cancel-able. Time when I've tried to angle up-b's only to toss a stupid silly string and die. It's not just me either. I've seen the best Sheik players in the world do it a few times...it's very annoying and perhaps should be the focus of any possible buff/ "give and takes"involving Sheik.

 

[iLink]

I think there was a general agreement that sheik was already 2gewd and buffing her sideb was unnecessary or some jazz

 

[MonkUnit]

If you give her back her ledge snap with sideb then she can recover without being edge guarded, ie; without someone grabbing the ledge first. You can already grab the ledge backwards from special fall. That's a big enough buff in recovery for Sheik. She's not getting brawl tether back.

 

[Sinji]

I think with a little more control, sonic can be force to be reckoned.

his speed is very hard to control though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Will there is a will there is a gay. No thats not a misprint. Someone always finds a way to do something gay if they have to pull it out of thin air somehow.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPUH7Ij8MA


Melee players are smart and when there is money on the line people will use anything to win....the most dangerous thing wall cling could provide is stalling.

Wall cling isn't any better than Peach Bomber stall, in fact, it's MUCH worse.

How are you supposed to stall with it? It doesn't restore your jumps, nearly every character can just run off the stage and hit her, or they can just edge-hog and wait until she eventually has to recover.

 

[jahkzheng]

I imagine that sheik could wall cling to help in some edgeguarding situations.
Rather than ledge hang to bair a low recoverer, you could wall cling to fair... Sounds like it could be dangerous.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Too slow, edge-hop bair is more versatile, safer and faster. :/

 

[jahkzheng]

Fair would be a more definitive KO against low damage opponents... especially if it was used below the ledge.

With practice, going into wall cling would only take a little longer than a straight ledge grab - particularly if the stage has no "lips". Actually, with no backwards grabbing on ledges except during special fall, you could wall cling even right at the edge... I think.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's not going into wall cling that's slow, it's coming out of it.

You could only gimp really slow, predictable, low recoveries with that method.

 

[jahkzheng]

Did the PM team make coming out of wall cling slower? If they didn't, then I'm thinking we're talking maybe 3 or 4 frames slower tops. I'm not clear on these details admittedly, but just from how fast these two mechanics appear, it doesn't seem to be so much slower as to be relatively useless.








Edit:
Granted, attacking from a ledge hang is far more versatile... but I don't think wall cling edgeguarding tactics should be deemed inviable as a result.

 

[jalued]

Sheik has had a nerfed chaingrab, though. Instead of a straight buff, it was more of a "give and take."

And Falcon has been dropping in the tier list as the Melee metagame has progressed. A bit more flexible of a recovery and a Falcon Kick almost worth using isn't going to push him past the spacies.

haha trust me when i say that even removing sheik's chaingrab does not nerf her significantly (from a PAL player)

 

[JCaesar]

Dropzone fair is far more flexible, useful, and unpredictable than wallcling fair. I can't think of any edgeguarding situation where wallcling fair would be better. I guess maybe if you're both offstage and you essentially want to walljump fair, wallcling would let you vary the timing a bit. Still, that's extremely situational at best.

I'm surprised nobody brought up crawling. That's a much bigger buff to Sheik than wallcling.

 

[leelue]

I actually have not found crawling to be all that significant.
in the demo, it let's her avoid lasers. In the updated version, it won't. JC, what am I missing (assuming its something)

 

[JCaesar]

Sheik's crawl is very low, so you can avoid a whole mess of projectiles/aerials that aren't perfectly spaced. Never underestimate the power of being short. It also helps you space with dtilt, which is quite a good combo starter.

 

[Juushichi]

Pretty much this. ^

 

[jalued]

Sheik's crawl is very low, so you can avoid a whole mess of projectiles/aerials that aren't perfectly spaced. Never underestimate the power of being short. It also helps you space with dtilt, which is quite a good combo starter.

not to mention escapes ALOT of grabs and still space, falcon will not be happy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She's the best character in the demo...

 

[shanus]

She's the best character in the demo...

The world already knows that nontumble DI is fixed... blah blah blah

 

[leelue]

With the exception of spacing your own dtilt, wouldn't most of those points would exist if she just crouched? Perhaps all of my experience against marth and falco are soiling my view, since they don't miss the aerials nor the grabs due to my crawl. Not any that I play against anyway

Who misses the grab besides ganon?

edit
it is probably more effective against random characters in the backroom version

 

[JCaesar]

Sheik is not as good as either space animal, sorry...

@leelue: You don't see the advantage in being able to move while crouched?

 

[leelue]

I agree that in the demo fox and falco get stupid advantages that thankfully don't exist anymore. Stupid woodland creatures.

And crawling it is obviously better than not moving. I just don't see it as something that pushes her character.

She didn't need much of an improvement, so its fine. Perhaps I need to play against another Sheik and see it for myself.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'd have to say Sheik is much more managable. Then again, for every character I played in Melee, Sheik was an outright nightmare. Now the Sheik MU isn't "LOL Ur a loe tire dnot' get grabed".

 

[leelue]

Same sentiments. It feels as though they clipped the edge off her moves. Which is a lie. Idk what it is.

Don't say landing detection. It's probably in my head

 

[jahkzheng]

Speaking of "spacies" and "crawling"...

Wolf should be a crawler... imo, lol.

 

[leelue]

it would make sense, but is probably more work than its worth

 

[MonkUnit]

landing detection.

 

[MonkUnit]

Speaking of "spacies" and "crawling"...

Wolf should be a crawler... imo, lol.

IIRC you can only crawl if the character has CrawlData in them and I don't think you can just add them to a non-crawler.

it would make sense, but is probably more work than its worth

You're right about this.

 

[leelue]

@ monk 1
you sir, are a ****

@ monk 2
pssh, as usual =D