Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[DeLux]

Uhhhhhh...

So the issues is that there's an established grab break formula.
But Kprime is throwing out statistics that defy the grab break formula.

Is it safe to assume the grab break formula is wrong?

 

[Pikabunz]

How is what I said defying the formula?

 

[Sieguest]

How is what I said defying the formula?

At 0 percent the grab duration is 90 frames.

You've just said over the past few posts that two inputs can be accepted in one frame, that the earliest a character can break from a grab is frame 20 (21 for pikachu) and that mashing inputs are accepted upon the first frame of being grabbed (which I'm very skeptical about but I'll go with it).

Two inputs is 16 frames being taken from the remaining grab duration.
90/16=5.625(6) This means that you are able to mash out of a grab in 6 frames once the game starts registering mashing inputs. (To be honest it may be less due to the passing of time as this happens.)

Now if inputs for mashing are accepted from the first frame of being grabbed, as you've said, then you should be able to mash out of the grab by frame 6. That's a 14/15 frame difference from the 20/21 minimum that you earlier posted was the earliest a character can mash from a grab.

I'm more inclined to believe that mashing inputs are not accepted until frame 7 of being grabbed (due to GIMR's testing which looks like it checks out). Going from that you should be able to mash out at frame 12, an 8/9 frame difference from the 20/21 frame minimum.

The problem is that there is no explanation for why these other 14/15 or 8/9 frames of nothing are coming from. And seeing as how I've done the math for the nine thousandth and first time, I'm pretty sure I'm not making a mistake. The only logical thing to assume at this point is that something is wrong with the grab formula.

 

[Pikabunz]

Let me rephase, the earliest the game will allow you to break out is 20/21 frames. So you could be inputting 100 inputs within 5 frames (which isn't possible), but you won't be able to actually break out till frame 20.

 

[Sieguest]

Oooooh okay, now I understand what you're saying. Well it does me no good why the programmers set it there but okay.


Thanks!

 

[T-block]

Anyone have time to look at this? http://www.michaelcw.com/store/misc/rp_110309_2015.bin

 

[T-block]

[yt]NQT6uNevVjI[/yt]

No longer looks PKT specific, but more like some weird interaction between Pikachu and the stage.

edit: replaced with frame-by-frame

 

[Pierce7d]

how much shield hit lag does ZSS get when she hits a shield with Dsmash?

 

[Kinzer]

Didn't I hear somewhere that there wasn't any?

That's from hearsay though, if you want hard numbers, I don't have them ATM.

 

[Toomai]

No shield hit lag as far as I can tell. (Didn't bother to load in the frame advance code but I'd say it's obvious enough just in training mode at 1/4 speed.)

ZSS's d-smash is just odd in general. It gives no lag at all to ZSS, it may be considered Special:Indirect for sticker purposes (based on boss HP testing), and it's the only attack I know of that can be absorbed but not reflected.

 

[phi1ny3]

Disregard post

 

[A2ZOMG]

That would explain the ridiculous frame advantage on block.

Now I'm going to do a rundown of the flags just so that we can check what causes that.

Normal Flags 06430E94
0000 0 11001 0000 1 1 00 00111010 0 10100
0000 0 25 0000 1 1 00 58 0 20

Special Flags (set 2) 014FFFC0
0000000 10 1 00 11111111111111 000 000


Compare to Falcon's Knee

Normal Flags 39C30483
0011 1 00111 0000 1 1 00 00010010 0 00011
3 1 7 0000 1 1 00 18 0 3

Special Flags (set 2) 004FFFC3
0000000 00 1 00 11111111111111 000 011

 

[rPSIvysaur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcj1PjtCddE&t=4m28s
watt

 

[Yikarur]

it's known that Lucarios sideB acts like a grab, so you can break out of it.

 

[Luxor]

Ally's mashing is so pro.

Also ZSS' Dsmash on block is like -1 or -2. Sick frame trap, NickRiddle does it all the time.

 

[EverAlert]

It's -4 I believe.

Just sayin' cause I need to post here more lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcj1PjtCddE&t=4m28s
watt

it's known that Lucarios sideB acts like a grab, so you can break out of it.

^This.

It's why we can't CG with it anymore T_T

Makes for a nice kill move/fair combo setup though

 

[Yikarur]

well sideB to awesome combos is still guaranteed xP

 

[T-block]

Does anyone know if GW's rapid jab counts as multiple moves in the stale moves queue? Is there an easy way to extract this information from OSA or something?

 

[Sieguest]

A move only goes into the stale move queue once the character goes to a different action. "Action" referring to any state different from the one they were in (e.g. using ftilt->standing idle) Given that, I don't think rapid jab goes into the stale counter until after you finish. However, once you do finish the stale multiplier will be at the amount of times you used the move up to max staleness. So as long as you continue the rapid jab the move won't stale; however once you stop it'll stale by the amount of hits you landed during the rapid jab up to max stale.

Clarifying quote:

I actually did a bit of testing since my last post; I believe I've figured it out.

Basically, with PSA I modified Marth's FTilt so that it did 20% on all hitbubbles with no knockback (so there's no tip and predictable dmg with no kb so I don't have to worry about him being out of range for the second hits), IASA on frame 6, hitbox start on frame 1 and hitbox termination on frame 11. Originally I had it IASA on frame 1 but this caused complications (it was too easy to cancel the tilt into a walk accidentally, even when going frame-by-frame). So for this test, Marth's frame data for FTilt is:

Hit - 1-10
IASA - 6
Duration - 43
Base Damage - 20% (21 unstale, 19.63 w/ 1x stale)

I wanted to test 3 things here. 1) Hitting with the same move a second time before the first's hitbox expires. 2) Hitting with the move again after the first's hitbox has expired but before the animation expires. 3) Hitting with the move again after both the hitbox and animation of the first move have expired (i.e. after Marth has gone into another action entirely). Results:

Condition 1 - 42% (Both actions got the unstale bonus - after thinking for a bit about why Nana wouldn't experience Popo's stale entry, I expected this.)
Condition 2 - 42% (As long as the second action was initiated within the 43-frame animation, both actions got the unstale bonus - unexpected, as I thought the entry might have been made on hitbox expiry)
Condition 3 - 39% (Second hit was given 1x stale as long as it was initiated on frame 44 or after - expected for obvious reasons)

To double-check this, I tried buffering a DTilt into itself - sure enough, 9% on both hits. So from this we know that a move is entered into the stale move queue on the first frame of the next -different- action. Of course, this means you can abuse the buffer to get an unstale bonus for the same move twice in a row.

As a side note, from this we also know that the game checks 3 things in this order: 1) If anything is in the buffer, it goes directly into the appropriate action (taking into account certain button combinations, eg a dash buffered but with the stick held to the side on execution results in a walk), otherwise 2) it goes into air/ground idle appropriately, performing any actions associated with that frame's animation. Finally, 3) If there is any button input, the action is again changed on the same frame to another action based on the buttons input between the current frame and the last.


Incidentally, there's something else I found: If you buffer multiples of the same move, the game keeps track of how many times the move hits and adds the move that many times to the top of the stale queue (I noticed this after I was FTilting Snake constantly across FD for lulz, the next time I did the move after his death it did 9% rather than 19%, doing it properly frame-by-frame also confirmed this).

Of course, I double-checked this using DTilt again. 3 unbuffered DTilts produced a damage sequence of 9%, 8%, 7%. 2 buffered DTilts into an unbuffered DTilt produces the damage sequence 9%, 9%, 7%.

 

[phi1ny3]

So, if I understand the buffering system right, I basically do a buffer by inputting the command 10 frames before the IASA? I plan on doing some testing on Sheik for stuff, and I kinda want to see if she has anything for BDACUS that's usable (not saying it will for sure be fruitful, but hey, that's what we do, right?)

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes you have to input all commands within that ten frame window

 

[Yikarur]

bdacus is just a buffered dash attack. You buffer a dash attack, wait for the first frame of the dash attack and then input upsmash.

 

[phi1ny3]

I was trying it out, man BDACUS could be pretty nifty for sheik, although I'm having a hard time with timing it after certain attacks like specials lol

 

[Dantarion]

For people who don't wanna sit through a minute+ of bull****.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hn6DkMjs8&t=1m38s

^ Skips right to the part.

No idea what caused it. Looks like stage shenanigans tho.

Here is what I think happened. Somehow or another, the grab hitbox from DK's grab ended up getting the stats of the ships spike hitbox.

(think the shiek chain glitch)

It may have something to do with how the previous grab was broken, or the giant punch, I am not sure, but that angle and speed is insane for it to be Giant Punch hitbox.

 

[Lord Chair]

ZSS is -5.

Jab will be GAed.

Spotdodge doesn't work against a normal 6-frame grab.

Does work against Snake and the likes obv.

Sheik's BDACUS, from what I've heard, is easier than her normal DACUS.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

ZSS is -5.

Jab will be GAed.

Spotdodge doesn't work against a normal 6-frame grab.

Does work against Snake and the likes obv.

Sheik's BDACUS, from what I've heard, is easier than her normal DACUS.

What is this a response to?

 

[Lord Chair]

Statements made on the previous page, obviously.

 

[phi1ny3]

ZSS is -5.

Jab will be GAed.

Spotdodge doesn't work against a normal 6-frame grab.

Does work against Snake and the likes obv.

Sheik's BDACUS, from what I've heard, is easier than her normal DACUS.

meh, after doing both more consistently, both are hard in their own way (BDACUS seems obnoxious to do from air release, DACUS not so much, etc.)

 

[Yikarur]

bdacus has a 1 frame window, dacus has a 2 frame window.
:D
I can normal dacus out of everything fluently with Sheik D:

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, the only one I find somewhat easier is spotdodge, and even so, DACUS seems to have more application, since you can do it out of any sort of situation while on the ground.

However, I can see limited but decent use from buffered dash attack, since sheik uses her DA extensively for punishes, and I see it used as a followup/string finisher at low percents lots of times.

 

[phi1ny3]

Pardon what would seem to be the naivety behind this question, but what dictates the outcome of moves after a clash? I've noticed countless times that I've clashed w/ moves much faster than the opponent's (and vice versa), yet have lost out to them when I make the same input again v. their input (ex. Sheik jab v. Lucario/snake jab/tilts). Is there a certain amount of hitlag that is prescribed to certain moves? Or is how far characters get distanced from certain moves after they clash?

 

[T-block]

How fast a move comes out doesn't matter =P

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300629

 

[phi1ny3]

So is the hitlag of a given move the basis for which move gets to go through after a reset?

 

[Sieguest]

So is the hitlag of a given move the basis for which move gets to go through after a reset?

No. What may be happening in the instance you describe (using your example from your previous post) is that the hitboxes on those moves come out at different times and the spacing changes due to the clash, causing one move to win out over the other when they come out again (This assuming that the moves start at the same time, which they most likely are if both players are hitting the attack button after the clash). The initial clash occurs due to more than likely the moves not starting at the same time.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ahhh, I got you, I can see that being the case, it seems things like snake ftilt wins a lot of those scenarios even against faster moves, and I always wondered why.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh diggity, I've got a really good question!

Okay, so this is admittedly fairly rare in singles, but in doubles it's a different story. Normally, as we're all aware of, a move has to go through a substantial amount of hitlag on shield, making things like smash attacks very punishable. However, if one gets interrupted from an outside source while performing the move, can they cancel the hitlag they'd normally take and do another move while the opponent has some amount of shieldstun? I ask because I remember experimenting w/ Falco + a character, w/ falco ground lasering to force a move to end before it's hitlag allowing you to do a lulzy "IASA" effect (ex. D3's dsmash). I guess it ultimately boils down to the "Order of operations" for attacks (kinda reminds me of Damage/battle/phases back in my Yugioh days lol).

So for example, let's say a dsmash with a hitbox on both sides, for the sake of simplicity (like ROB or Lucario, since laser turns you around to face whoever hit you w/ it) is hit with grounded laser as it's performed on shield. Can they somehow induce enough shieldstun, keep a hitbox out, and perform another one on shield without the augmented lag?

 

[Sieguest]

Oh diggity, I've got a really good question!

Okay, so this is admittedly fairly rare in singles, but in doubles it's a different story. Normally, as we're all aware of, a move has to go through a substantial amount of hitlag on shield, making things like smash attacks very punishable. However, if one gets interrupted from an outside source while performing the move, can they cancel the hitlag they'd normally take and do another move while the opponent has some amount of shieldstun? I ask because I remember experimenting w/ Falco + a character, w/ falco ground lasering to force a move to end before it's hitlag allowing you to do a lulzy "IASA" effect (ex. D3's dsmash). I guess it ultimately boils down to the "Order of operations" for attacks (kinda reminds me of Damage/battle/phases back in my Yugioh days lol).

So for example, let's say a dsmash with a hitbox on both sides, for the sake of simplicity (like ROB or Lucario, since laser turns you around to face whoever hit you w/ it) is hit with grounded laser as it's performed on shield. Can they somehow induce enough shieldstun, keep a hitbox out, and perform another one on shield without the augmented lag?

I see what you're getting at, the only reason why I believe it's not possible is because moves that induce relatively large amounts of shieldlag+stun take a relatively large amount of time to actually get their hitbox out again+the amount of frames spent flinching from the laser hit. On the flip side, you could try relatively faster attacks (same deal for moves with multiple hitboxes), but they don't induce near as much shieldlag+stun so you probably wouldn't be able to lock them there. The most I suppose you could do is a "hard" hit->laser->"soft" hit. But that'd be about it.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

So I wanna learn more about bones... any suggestions as to where/how to start?

 

[MK26]

1) find local hospital
2) ???
3) Profit!

Spoiler