R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #6: Lucario

[JCaesar]

Oh cool I didn't know that.

I'm pretty sure the insta grab break applies to it as well though, because I think I remember doing it by accident once (at high % so it wasn't just from struggling). I could be wrong though.

 

[Sudai]

Noted. Danke.

 

[WarmSoda]

Is there any information on how well the grab release dtilt works on Lucario?

 

[Nintendevil]

Haven't you ever noticed that sometimes you break out of a grab instantly, regardless of percent? I believe it's done by pressing A at the exact moment you get grabbed, but don't quote me on that.

someone said they where going to confirm this and nobody ever did. some people say you have to airdodge, some say press A, some say grab. is it at the same time, or right after? Tooooo much isn't known about this.

 

[T-REX!]

someone said they where going to confirm this and nobody ever did. some people say you have to airdodge, some say press A, some say grab. is it at the same time, or right after? Tooooo much isn't known about this.

Isn't it part of port priority?

 

[Nintendevil]

No thats when two people grab at the same time but one of them gets the grab anyways, no break (I think).

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

What CPs have you guys had luck with against Lucario?

 

[JCaesar]

I like Yoshi's Island vs Lucario. You'd think the walls would help his recovery since he can cling out of his up-B, but he's extremely vulnerable when he's clinging and you can take advantage with a drop-down aerial. Other than that, low ceiling stages like Halberd maybe, since he doesn't kill great vertically. I haven't really put much thought into CPing Lucario actually... I don't think I've ever had to counterpick one in tourney.

 

[jjvirus]

Frigate for me I dont think I need to say why

 

[Syde7]

What CPs have you guys had luck with against Lucario?

*thinks*

Frigate, of course.

I've entertained the thought of japes as his aura shots travel horizontally, so claiming a platform and camping it may work as he would have to jump at which time you can laser him, and there's the chance his spheres may not make the distance required to get to you. I haven't really tried it, so someone feel free to point out any flaws in this before I make a dumb decision.

I agree with picking Halberd... for some reason its quickly becoming one of my fave stages.

I thought about RC, as he doesn't have...anything other than the ship to ledgerab and the wind-down from his up+B could help you, but I don't know. I doubt it. Someone with more exp. on the matchup feel free to rip this idea a new one.

Maybe norfair, if you want to get a cheap 'plank-esque' win, iunno.

Again, im vastly unfamiliar with the matchup, so I am speakin in theoreticals, hence me not really contributing much to the discussion.

 

[JCaesar]

I don't think Norfair is a good choice. Lucario is good on ledges, and if he gets on the ledge below the one you're camping he'll be able to dislodge you with bairs which beat our fairs, and if you try to camp the bottom platform, his dair will stop that in a hurry. I just think there's too much vertical fighting in this stage and ROB really needs to stay to Lucario's side, because he loses from above and below.

 

[Syde7]

I don't think Norfair is a good choice. Lucario is good on ledges, and if he gets on the ledge below the one you're camping he'll be able to dislodge you with bairs which beat our fairs, and if you try to camp the bottom platform, his dair will stop that in a hurry. I just think there's too much vertical fighting in this stage and ROB really needs to stay to Lucario's side, because he loses from above and below.

Very astute observation, and duly noted. Thanks

 

[RT]

Anything with small ceilings and no wallcling-able sides is a good CP. You'll force Lucario onto the stage and it's basically a free punish.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

I've played a Lucario on Norfair in friendlies... you eat a lot of his dairs there lol

 

[Nintendevil]

Anything with small ceilings and no wallcling-able sides is a good CP. You'll force Lucario onto the stage and it's basically a free punish.

EDIT: misread post >_>

All I know is I do't like Luigis Mansion for Lucario. His tilt **** hurts more when you add knee high platforms and ceilings.

 

[Sudai]

I personally like taking Lucario to Frigate. They can cling to the right side when the platform is up or in the middle, but just wait for the Cling Jump BAir/Air Dodge and then FSmash.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Yeah I was actually just playing my friend in some friendlies. Frigate really helps keep you in control of the match against Lucario.

 

[Kitamerby]

^^ I think he means you can break out with the insta-grab-break, not by mashing after you get grabbed.

No, you can break out of Lucario's ForcePalm just like a normal grab.

He can be dangerous at low %. He can combo the hell out of ROB when his aerials and tilts don't have any knockback. Sure, they do low damage too, but they can string together a lot of stuff at low %.

We don't kill Mario until 187% or so with Fsmash (with basic DI) when we're at 0% and at the same stock. We need to wait until we get to like 50% before we can kill reliably. Note that this does not apply if we're one stock down, in which we get a small boost from the start and should be able to kill at like 20-40%.

I'd be careful about camping a high % Lucario. Remember that a fully charged aura sphere will eat right through a fully charged gyro like it wasn't even there. If you don't powershield every single aura ball he will be outdamaging you also. At high % is when you should be trying to get rid of Lucario ASAP.

Gyro and Aura Sphere always clank regardless of our charge. Also, Lucario camping is probably one of the weakest forms of camping in the game. Baby Aura Spheres are very slow, don't do much damage, have low range, and a slow rate of fire. It is most likely that Lucario will be approaching (usually) in this fight.

Eh, be careful about leaving a gyro out vs Lucario. His dash attack is quick and high priority, good for picking it up, and his glidetossing game is almost as good as ours. Most Lucarios probably won't have a lot of experience with glidetossing but the good ones will know what to do.

Luc's Glidetoss is crap. >>

I'm gonna say 55:45 ROB. Killing him early is very important, and even though ROB can't kill well, Lucario is one of the more easily gimped characters. There's really very little he can do about well-spaced fairs off the stage.

You won't gimp Lucario.

One thing I like to do against a fsmash-spamming Lucario is run into it, powershield, and jab OoS. It works every time. If you're bad at powershielding, you can space yourself a bit farther away and ftilt OoS, so you're out of his jab range, because he can follow fsmash up with jab fairly quickly.

Good Lucarios don't spam Fsmash from far away. We will use it while you're already approaching from mid-range, while you're landing, while you're on the ledge, to kill, and basically any time you're vulnerable.

I like Yoshi's Island vs Lucario. You'd think the walls would help his recovery since he can cling out of his up-B, but he's extremely vulnerable when he's clinging and you can take advantage with a drop-down aerial. Other than that, low ceiling stages like Halberd maybe, since he doesn't kill great vertically. I haven't really put much thought into CPing Lucario actually... I don't think I've ever had to counterpick one in tourney.

Lucario can immediately do a rising airdodge from a wall cling, and can actually scale walls even without a double jump or Extremespeed, which is kinda cool, albeit somewhat only for show since he's extremely vulnerable while attempting this. <<

I've entertained the thought of japes as his aura shots travel horizontally, so claiming a platform and camping it may work as he would have to jump at which time you can laser him, and there's the chance his spheres may not make the distance required to get to you. I haven't really tried it, so someone feel free to point out any flaws in this before I make a dumb decision.

Japes makes us live to stupid percents. It's a real risk to take Lucario to Japes.

I thought about RC, as he doesn't have...anything other than the ship to ledgerab and the wind-down from his up+B could help you, but I don't know. I doubt it. Someone with more exp. on the matchup feel free to rip this idea a new one.

Lucario shouldn't need to use Extremespeed. If you choose Rainbow Cruise, it should be because the boundaries are tiny. [/QUOTE]

Lucario's dash attack is like a laggy DTilt. It's terrible, get out of here.

*shrug* What can I contribute? It's about all been said and I lean in the 55:45-ish direction. Don't let him bait you with FSmash and crap, go back to camping and just make him approach so he can't do it. ;/ He's a little more disjointed but his range isn't annoyingly large like Marth, you just learn the spacing as you go. And yay for being one of the most easily gimped characters in the game, it's like trying to edgeguard Fox/Falco without their Side-B.

You won't gimp Lucario. ROB can edgeguard and rack up some damage by keeping Luc off the edge, but you will almost NEVER kill Lucario off the bottom boundary unless the Lucario seriously screws up. Lucario's recovery is actually above average. :\

 

[Browny]

You won't gimp Lucario. ROB can edgeguard and rack up some damage by keeping Luc off the edge, but you will almost NEVER kill Lucario off the bottom boundary unless the Lucario seriously screws up. Lucario's recovery is actually above average. :\

^^ this man, he knows

7:34
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ICEvJ66Upvs

lucarios recovery is top tier... who else can survive a ganon spike at 110% lol

 

[tedward2000]

Ok, So its getting to the point of annoyance.

Lucario is not as gimpable as all of SWF thinks.

"His Up-B doesnt do damage!"
Doesn't mean he can wall cling elsewhere.

There's several times seen in notable matches with lucario, where he wall clings the ledge that is occupied by a ledge guarder.
Yes, Lucario can wall cling pixels, right above the ones above your character.

Lucario shouldn't have to ES to recover. His jumps and floatiness is more then enough to reach a stage.
ES doesnt have to be used every time to recover, but as a last minuet option or mind game trickery. (cause he flys, and thats just awesome to watch.)

Wall clinging, Lucario can do it blindfolded.

Dair, slows him down, aka, stalling his falling.

Gimping is still an option, just not as "OMG LUCARIO = GIMPTASITC".
K, thanks. XD
-t2

 

[JCaesar]

No, you can break out of Lucario's ForcePalm just like a normal grab.

I already admitted I didn't know that.

We don't kill Mario until 187% or so with Fsmash (with basic DI) when we're at 0% and at the same stock. We need to wait until we get to like 50% before we can kill reliably. Note that this does not apply if we're one stock down, in which we get a small boost from the start and should be able to kill at like 20-40%.

When I say Lucario is dangerous at low %, I don't mean his KO potential, I mean his damage-racking and combo potential.

Gyro and Aura Sphere always clank regardless of our charge. Also, Lucario camping is probably one of the weakest forms of camping in the game. Baby Aura Spheres are very slow, don't do much damage, have low range, and a slow rate of fire. It is most likely that Lucario will be approaching (usually) in this fight.

I was pretty sure a fully charged Aura Sphere when Luc is 100+% eats through gyros (freshly fired gyros, nothing eats a gyro that has already landed) but I don't have a Wii to test this on right now so whatever. I give you that Luc isn't a great camper, but you can charge your Aura Sphere while powershielding ROB's spam and **** gets dangerous for us.

Luc's Glidetoss is crap. >>

K, I thought it comboed pretty nicely into jab or grab but maybe I'm wrong.

Good Lucarios don't spam Fsmash from far away. We will use it while you're already approaching from mid-range, while you're landing, while you're on the ledge, to kill, and basically any time you're vulnerable.

OK, I was just saying it's not as unpunishable as people think.

Lucario can immediately do a rising airdodge from a wall cling, and can actually scale walls even without a double jump or Extremespeed, which is kinda cool, albeit somewhat only for show since he's extremely vulnerable while attempting this. <<

OK, his options from a wall cling are pretty limited though.

Japes makes us live to stupid percents. It's a real risk to take Lucario to Japes.

I can't argue with that, I wouldn't take Lucario to a big stage.

Lucario shouldn't need to use Extremespeed. If you choose Rainbow Cruise, it should be because the boundaries are tiny.

k

You won't gimp Lucario. ROB can edgeguard and rack up some damage by keeping Luc off the edge, but you will almost NEVER kill Lucario off the bottom boundary unless the Lucario seriously screws up. Lucario's recovery is actually above average. :\

This is where I really have to disagree. Distance-wise, sure, Lucario's got a fine recovery. His aimable up-B and wall cling means he shouldn't be getting edgehogged very often, regardless of the fact that his up-B does no damage. But that's not how ROB gimps people. ROB flies out and harasses you far off the stage with fairs, and can turn around at any moment to land a bair for the kill. ExtremeSpeed has significant startup lag, which makes it very easy to continue the harassment. Luc is good at avoiding that situation, with his large 2nd jump, high-priority fair and good airdodge, but if he ever gets knocked out without a 2nd jump, or if ROB lasers or fairs him out of his 2nd jump, Lucario is toast.

I'm not really sure how that video of Luc surviving a Ganon spike is relevant. All it proves is that his recovery has good distance. It has little bearing on the gimpability of his up-B.

Who in the cast has a more gimpable recovery than Lucario? Tethers (excluding ZSS), spacies, some of the bottom tiers, Ike and Marth maybe...

 

[Sudai]

Lucario's FORWARD glide toss is crap. His reverse glide toss is pretty ****ed good.

Lucario is gimpable via harassment. It's what ROB does better than anyone (even MK can't harass high up like we can.) We don't expect you to just die from a few hits or an edge hog. You're gonna die because while you're in the blast zone, you're getting hit in the face dropping you lower and lower.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Lucario is one of the few characters that I actually consider dair a legitimate edgeguarging option.
Oh, and the fully charged aura does in fact eat through a fully charged gyro... and punishes the lag from firing the gyro as well lol.
But yes, Lucario is definitely one of the more gimpable characters (and I do mean ROB gimp, not just edgehog gimp, although ROB can do both)

EDIT: Sudai pretty much explains it very well (what else is new? lol)

 

[indianunit]

I think if you ask me ROB should be able to gimp lucario just because Lucario's extreme speed is pretty easy to read.

Not that it's EASY to gimp lucario, keep in mind that lucario floats quite farther than most other character and you can curve Lucario's extreme speed so he has much maneuverability but since it doesn't do damage it's easier to gimp than most other characters.

 

[Browny]

I wonder what it feels like to play against opponents who have no idea how to airdodge, DI or save thier mid-air jump. Ill bet its pretty fun

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

I wonder what it feels like to play against opponents who have no idea how to airdodge, DI or save thier mid-air jump. Ill bet its pretty fun

It's actually quite fun, you should try it.

But seriously, ROB does have options if the opponent airdodges, like FF fair, RGC bair, or even nair.

 

[JCaesar]

Bair's lingering hitbox ***** airdodges.

 

[Sudai]

Accidental double post.

 

[Sudai]

I wonder what it feels like to play against opponents who have no idea how to airdodge, DI or save thier mid-air jump. Ill bet its pretty fun

I wonder what it feels like to play against opponents who have no idea how to bait air dodges, read DI, or know when the other person still has their double jump. I'll bet it's pretty fun.


Besides, it's not like we're claiming you're dead every time you're off stage, that'd be asinine. We're saying we have the tools to gimp you, probably better tools to gimp you than any other character in the roster. That alone should be enough to take note of. You can't play a ROB and expect to seldom be gimped, it will happen. ROB gimps characters that are very difficult to gimp for the rest of the cast, deal with it.

 

[DRaGZ]

This topic has been very enlightening. Thanks for making it the character of the week Sudai, I feel as though I have learned a lot.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Mmm... Even I have to wonder if you guys are being a little overly defensive about Lucci's gimpibility now. ROB's offstage game is hell to deal with when you're recovering as Lucario, they're right. Outright gimp kills are neither commonplace (I don't think any ROBs have said that they are) or impossible.

As long as we're at that, I haven't found ROB's recovery to be as untouchable as some people think with Lucci. Offstage game is still in his favor, just thought I'd mention it.

I don't see this matchup as any worse than neutral for Lucci. I could potentially see it as a slight advantage to him, but I don't much care for debating numbers anyway. Take it as you will. *Shrug*

Also hai Dragz.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hey Stauffy.

I still feel bad. Lol.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It's all good, it's all good.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

When i play lucario i only worry about his uair because i cant do much about it. I'm pretty sure this is in ROBs favor

 

[phi1ny3]

Mmm... Even I have to wonder if you guys are being a little overly defensive about Lucci's gimpibility now. ROB's offstage game is hell to deal with when you're recovering as Lucario, they're right. Outright gimp kills are neither commonplace (I don't think any ROBs have said that they are) or impossible.

As long as we're at that, I haven't found ROB's recovery to be as untouchable as some people think with Lucci. Offstage game is still in his favor, just thought I'd mention it.

I don't see this matchup as any worse than neutral for Lucci. I could potentially see it as a slight advantage to him, but I don't much care for debating numbers anyway. Take it as you will. *Shrug*

Also hai Dragz.

I lean towards this. I agree that ROB has a gay offstage game, though both chars can equally do some pretty nasty things to each other's recovery, although I have to say that ROB has some slightly better options offstage. Anyone who has suggested dair to gimp a wallclinging lucario has mouthed ignorance of the highest degree, lucario's wallcling will only usually be gimped by something fast, certainly not something like dair or nair (possibly bair tho). If you say that he's punishable when he lands onstage, the problem is that you only have enough time for a quick aerial that sends him not toward the same side edge, but opposing edge, essentially meaning that this isn't quite gimping well!
Yeah, also, unless a lucario is being uber predictable and not utilizing his offstage recovering tricks (dair stall, BAS, wallcling, etc.) I don't think that it's going to be per se as easy as some have been leading this to be.
FO is imo a good option, even though lucarios love this CP normally, against a ROB it's kind of disadvantageous, and RC would also be runner-up.
Imma gonna say 50:50, doing some things with t0mmy has helped, and I think that this, leaning towards a slight disadvantage for lucario could be accurate.

 

[Overswarm]

If the Lucario is a fan of wall-clinging, drop from the ledge and footstool him right off the wall. XD

My favorite lucario edgeguard on Yoshi's Island:

B-throw to vertical fair/f-tilt depending on their DI. Laser them so they get hit out of their jump or up+b if they try it, or fall lower if it misses / they air dodge. Drop off the stage and fair if necessary (never will be), then shoot a gyro at the stage.

It bounces off if it is fully charged and knocks lucario out fair enough for you to easily edgehog or bair. XD


It's hard to do and hardly ever is applicable, but it is super fun.

 

[Overswarm]

Haven't you ever noticed that sometimes you break out of a grab instantly, regardless of percent? I believe it's done by pressing A at the exact moment you get grabbed, but don't quote me on that.

This is done by too much momentum going in the opposite direction or too much of a slant when you are grabbed.

 

[Teh Future]

So am I the only one that thinks this is in lucarios favor simply because we cant kill him until high percents?

Seriously you can outplay him the entire match and because he lives to high percentages he'll hit you once and your dead at around 100%.

Living long is not hard at all against ROB not to mention Lucario players focus on living long more than any other player in the game.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

Im just gonna throw this out... Side B vs lucario is REALLY fun

 

[ipitydatfu]

Seconds Post Above ^^