Randomness

[Une]

1. Project M is supposed to be more competitive and fast and technical and all badass and stuff right?
2. Randomness is NOT competitive or badass. Well okay maybe randomness can be badass if the kind of person that feels like a cool guy for winning because you got a bob-omb or misfire but it's certainly not competitive.
3. So why is there random **** in this custom made mod thing that's supposed to be all non-scrubby and for tournament play and stuff.

As far as I know Peach's turnips, Dedede's minions, Luigi Missile, Pikmin etc. are still random. Why. I mean sure. You could say that those things don't effect the outcome of matches very much but then again you could say the same for Brawl tripping, Clean Hits in SCV, Arakune clouds, or Faust/Zappa randomness. Randomness in fighting games is ****ing dumb and has no place in them. Smash at least has the excuse of being a party game but PM is kinda different.

Just kinda curious really because I'm sure this has been discussed among the super-secret PM backroom homeboys and I'm wondering what the justification for leaving in random elements in something that is supposed to be made for competitive play is.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Stick around longer before making threads that look like obvious bait.

Random elements are fine when the move already is decent at its worst, when the strongest versions can be manipulated, or when it can be predicted to some extent.

Game and Watch's hammer has so many tells for when it can roll a 5, 6, 7, or 9, all of which are great attacks that either kill or automatically lead to a kill.

Luigi's misfire runs on a Russian Roulette system, where the misfire starts as 1/6, then 1/5, and so on until it is guarantied, has a tell in the green shading that occurs when it will misfire, and can be stored for use whenever you want.

Peach's Turnips and DeDeDe's waddle/gordo toss have a calculated risk inherit to taking the time to use the move, and have decent enough application to be used often. Gordos are as easy as any other Waddle to get around from neutral, and kill only marginally sooner than his other options in a combo. Peach's turnips, meanwhile, have a fluctuation in percents; it isn't like the move is nothing but ****ty turnips and 1/120 stichfaces. This is a case similar to DeDeDe, where the use of turnips warrents using the move to pluck a lot.

Olimar Pikmin would be pretty stupid without random plucks. He'd always just stick with Purples, and have no use for the others. As it is, he has to work with what Pikmin he has to the best. It isn't the worst part of Olimar's design by a long shot.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I mean come on bro, everyone's moves you just listed, are in a sense supposed to be random. I'd say more but Kink pretty much summed everything up.

 

[Vashimus]

Randomness usually isn't the cornerstone of a character's gameplan, and they typically aren't that big of a deal. For those where randomness really is a part of their playstyle (Faust, Zappa, end list), they're balanced around it accordingly as other aspects of their play are weaker.

Smooth first post, buddy.

 

[Smo]

Well, I kinda agree, and I used to main Peach on this game. Turnips are already great, and I didn't find it to be very satisfying when I would win with a lucky turnip pull.

 

[Yurya]

I have to agree with Une; randomness is not ever a good thing. It gets worse the more noticeable the differences are. If a Peach wins a match because of pulling a stitch-face or bomb-omb it isn't right. If Peach regularly pulled a stitch-face every match then this would be less of a problem but the differences from separate matches shouldn't be there.

 

[Hulter]

Agreed. This stuff buggers me off too.

Inconsistent gameplay elements much in this vein killed Halo. It should be avoided when possible. And in this it is.

It's like bullet spread in shooters. It's there to limit the range of a weapon, but this could be done through constintent measures, like damage dropoff over distance. It's ********.

Make luigi misfire every sixth time, or whatever, make stitches turn up every n:th time, where n is the average amount of turnips required to get one, or simply average it out to a single static version that always turns out the same.

Lacking balance can't be excused with randomness.
Randomness has no place in competitive games.

 

[Infil]

Randomness has no place in competitive games.

Poker seems to be doing fine.

Being able to control or predict randomness to some degree is neat, as long as the most common outcome is still worth using and as long as it's used sparingly; both of these things seem to be true of Project M. If you don't like it, you don't have to choose the character who suffers from it. If Peach randomly gets a free stock once every 15 games because she got a stitch face, to me that's just part of the character (and a benefit, if I'm a Peach player), and I'm not too upset. Also, I don't *have* to get hit by the stitch face.

 

[deadjames]

 

[Mera Mera]

I will say I generally agree. I half wish randomness was out of the game entirely, but PM has made the random things they kept far more acceptable.

There are things that make randomness less bad:
1. Predictability: if you can figure out what's likely to happen next then the opponent can adapt accordingly.
2. Consistency: if you get about the same amount of benefit each match given a similar amount of use of the random move. Stitch face fails this test pretty hard admittedly.
3. "React-ability": if you have time to react to the random event after knowing the random event happened. Stitch face fits this pretty well. You see it before she has a chance to hit you with it.

I think the Olimar's Pikmin fit all three very well, and as such I have almost 0 problem with it. The other random things in the game I have very little problem with, though I'm not a huge fan of the Judgement hammer personally (though the changes made it WAY more reasonable).

I personally wish there were less random things in this game, but at least randomness was handled well by the PM team. It doesn't ruin the game for me and I'm sure some people like it, so I guess it's fine.

Not gonna lie though, I hated the random huge bacon.

I suppose it might be worth asking the community how many people who main characters with a random factor enjoy said random factor.

 

[deadjames]

To answer your question, I'm pretty sure bob-ombs, stitch faces, and beam swords are my favorite thing about Peach, with float cancelling being a close second.

 

[Mera Mera]

Yeah because of my third point, which I think is the strongest thing in making random fair/competitive, I don't really have a problem with Peach. Beam swords in particular are fun as hell imo. I have way more of a problem when something violates the third point ("react-ability")... and the thing that violates that the most is G&W's hammer.

 

[deadjames]

Yeah because of my third point, which I think is the strongest thing in making random fair/competitive, I don't really have a problem with Peach. Beam swords in particular are fun as hell imo. I have way more of a problem when something violates the third point ("react-ability")... and the thing that violates that the most is G&W's hammer.

Well Luigi can jab cancel into misfire, that's pretty hard to react to as well.

 

[The_Altrox]

People are actually bothered by this?

For me, it's just a part of the game. When I play against a Luigi, a G&W, a Peach, or a King Dedede, I accept the risk and I prepare accordingly. I'm always on guard to dodge those things and if I get hit with them, who's fault is it? Mine. You can either whine about it or you can be ready to deal with it.

 

[Mera Mera]

Well Luigi can jab cancel into misfire, that's pretty hard to react to as well.

Yeah that's fair. Misfire was on the back of my mind when I said that. Only reason I see it as less bad is you can KNOW you have a misfire, and so there's less incentive to risk getting punished when you don't know. G&W's hammer is better than it was cause you can narrow it down to options that do the same general thing, which is good.

I don't hate randomness, I just think that it's a ****ty feeling when luck plays a large roll in winning or losing a match. Namely if a misfire would to hit when it was still a 1/6 chance or if a Gordo screwed a DDD's recovery, or if the hammer hits with a 9 OR a 1 in a close match when either was possible (which is not always the case).

And I know this doesn't happen often, which is why it doesn't bother me much. Just playin' devils advocate here. It's not a black and white issue for sure.

In fact Pikmin, the beam sword, and Mr. Saturn are examples where random factors can add depth to the game, because not only can the player and opponent react and adapt to the random factor, but the differing pikmin and those items have utility that is unique to them (I guess stitch face and bomb-ombs too, though they seem more like straight upgrades).

 

[popsofctown]

pikmin are fine because the sample size is so large. I think it would be a smart move on the PM team's part to add some additional manipulation, like plucking immediately after using a certain move gets you a certain one (with Purples requiring you to have actually connected with a strong move). But it's fine as is.

Peach is not fine, don't get hit is dumb advice that could be used to justify D3's infinite on DK. It's not fair for randomness to impact how much punishment a mistake deserves in a competitive game, the punishment should be similar each time. Bob-ombs don't even require a mistake, for the record, you could be doing something laggy across the stage like setting C4 that would be guaranteed finished in time to shield against turnip pluck, but then Peach grabs bomb instead and throws it for guaranteed hit instead. Bob-omb's travel much faster in the air.

 

[Yurya]

Randomness in any amount is not a good thing. Just because it isn't as noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't have an adverse effect on the game. It can exist and I would be fine with it but only if it is so minimal it is not noticeable (then what is the point?) or in such a quantity that all the variations are covered multiple times in a stock (I have one exception here that I will get to later).

The random features could be changed up without majorly impacting their character's game:
Bacon could have just one path (leading to more thoughtful use).
Pikmin could come 1 of each (total of 5, Pluck could even be changed).
Misfire could act much like Wario's Waft.
Peach and DDD's pulls could treat all other possibilities as items; which wouldn't appear with items off (I am assuming here, and this wold leave just Dees and basic Turnips).

The problem I come to though is Judgement, as it is such an integral part of G&W's move set (the reason I hate his design). I believe that it actually a big reason as to why any random elements are in the game. Because if everything else were removed Judgement would stick out as the strongest, and only, random factor.

My personal solution for this (my exception from above) would be to give G&W the strongest combo game in the game: one that almost always finishes with a hammer. This would leave the possibility of a 0-death combo in the hand of Judgement. A 1,2 or 3 gives the target a place to escape/counterattack. A 4,5,6 completes a solid combo that will probably leave G&W in a favorable position, or a 7,8,9 that cleans up nicely. The only character comes to mind that has such a combo game was 2.1 Lucario who was broken because he was too good.

And this is point I am trying to make:
That such a random system could only be balanced (somewhat) by being paired with an almost guaranteed combo game.

Also Poker is about surviving long enough to capitalize on a few successes (Gambling is also looked down upon in most societies).

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Pikmin could come 1 of each (total of 5, Pluck could even be changed).

JESUS NO! HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED OLIMAR? I don't want to have to use the whistle FIVE TIMES after each attack just to have some viable way to follow up that combo. Having multiple of a single pikmin type, not having a pikmin type in your line-up, only having n pikmin, and having specific pikmin line-ups is what makes Olimar Olimar. You can't just take that away and call it the same character without making thousands of other tweaks.

2.1 Lucario who was broken because he was too good.

This is actually correct, Lucario was broken in 2.1 because he was broken.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i agree no randomness whatsoever is acceptable, thats why dota isn't competitive

 

[MattNF]

I agree with this topic. I don't know why there are still random elements in Project M if it's supposed to be competitive. Losing or winning a match because of a dice roll is stupid and has no place in the game.

 

[GrosMinou]

I used to think the same way. but then someone said : Imagine if you could control a G&W Side-B to always hit 9s. I think randomness is fine.

I don't recall a match where someone with because of the randomness of their characters (maybe its just because I don't watch that much games).

 

[MattNF]

I used to think the same way. but then someone said : Imagine if you could control a G&W Side-B to always hit 9s. I think randomness is fine.

That's a terrible example, because it implies that if his side-b was made to be non-random that it would also keep the same stats it has now instead of being rebalanced accordingly.

 

[popsofctown]

Can we set item settings to "frequency: off. Beam Sword: ON. Bob-omb: ON. Saturn: ON"? It's only fair.

 

[Mansta]

Randomness is dumb every match should be exactly the same and boring.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Randomness is dumb every match should be exactly the same and boring.

They should remove every character that isn't Marth or Captain Falcon.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It might be difficult to implement, but maybe it is possible for the PMBR to create a fake randomness that will be regarded as random commonly but isn't (like a dependance on both player's percent in a weird way [ so modulo math e.g.]). Then, if you really want to achieve being not dependant on randomness, you could learn what factors effect your outcome and otherwise still treat it as randomness. I am convinced this has potential but it needs to be developed further if used... (but with so many smart brains in the PMBR, its obviously not even near to a problem ^^)

 

[Kink-Link5]

All randomnes in the game is fake random. Peach's turnips are decided by a random seed based on the timer. There is no true random number generation in either real life or in video games outside of the quantum level.

 

[Nicknick]

I've thought about this before multiple times and I still don't think randomness has a place in Project M or any competitive fighting game, and here is why:

There is no reason for it to be there.

What if the random moves never existed in the first place and were instead replaced with brand new moves that were balanced according to the character's move-set? From a competitive standpoint, would we miss these random elements we never had? No. How many competitive gamers go into a skill-based game thinking, "Hmm, you know what this game needs? More dice rolls."

Randomness has no place in a competitive fighting game because the concept of adding randomness is to provide unpredictable elements. Unpredictable elements inherently oppose skill-based gameplay in fighting games. Skill should be promoted, not otherwise.

Randomness is is great for adding chaotic fun in games, but that's not what Project M's fun is derived from. Smashers have "fun" by pulling off finely tuned techniques to outplay their opponents in a satisfying way, not by some randomly generated number (regardless of how small or psuedo-random it is). When you outplay someone you know you did. This is similar to why items are off by default in competitive rules.

Randomness has its place, but in my opinion this place is absolutely NOT in competitive fighting games. As for Project M specifically I've always thought the random-related moves should just be remade. And if people want RNG for party plays then add a "Random Moves" option in the menu that turns the moves back into their legacy counterparts.

 

[Mansta]

Getting that "randomly generated number" is very satisfying when it hits, it kind of makes smash what it is: not a traditional fighting game.

Edit: removed first part because I read your post more carefully. :/

 

[Hulter]

Getting that "randomly generated number" is very satisfying when it hits, it kind of makes smash what it is: not a traditional fighting game.

Edit: removed first part because I read your post more carefully. :/

So the defining attribute of smash is that it's random ********?

I thought it was the percentage system, free movement and physics engine instead of set combos.

I'll just go tell Svenska spel they need to regulate smash tournaments then, since apparently it's gambling like any other.

I'm done.

 

[deadjames]

Getting that "randomly generated number" is very satisfying when it hits, it kind of makes smash what it is: not a traditional fighting game.

Edit: removed first part because I read your post more carefully. :/

Even some traditional fighting games have random elements, like Tira's split personalities on Soul Calibur 5, or the status effects on Persona 4 Arena.

 

[Hulter]

How are people in 2014 defending randomness in a competitive game?

I've seen these same arguments in defense of bloom and random weapon drops in Halo, and look where Halo got thanks to it! Daily population peaks are below 15k after merely a year since the release of Halo 4 wheras in Halo 2 it was well above a million after the same period of time.

But I guess we just need to learn to ADAPT.

 

[Hulter]

People are actually bothered by this?

For me, it's just a part of the game. When I play against a Luigi, a G&W, a Peach, or a King Dedede, I accept the risk and I prepare accordingly. I'm always on guard to dodge those things and if I get hit with them, who's fault is it? Mine. You can either whine about it or you can be ready to deal with it.

I don't get this "take the risk into account" bull****. How is randomness any more tactical than consistent mechanics?

Preparing accordingly and accepting risks is exactly what you cannot do, because you have no idea whether peach will push you back an inch with a happy turnip or blow you to the moon with a bobomb. By its very nature, randomness CANNOT be adapted to.

They say the same thing about bloom in Halo, but it doesn't stop bad kids from crossmap spamming me with a successful 5shot every 4:th time whereas I pace my shots and don't even get to fire a 4:th shot. But I should have ADAPTED, taken the risk into account and taken the only reasonable corse of action: to quit playing the game. And that is exactly what a million people did. And now Halo's dead. Good job.

 

[deadjames]

I can't believe this thread is even still alive.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And now Halo's dead. Good job.

Yeah, but they're still making money off it.

You're on Smashboards, Brawl should have taught you seven years ago that companies do not give a **** about competitive scenes in the slightest.

 

[Hulter]

Yeah, but they're still making money off it.

You're on Smashboards, Brawl should have taught you seven years ago that companies do not give a **** about competitive scenes in the slightest.

That's completely irrelevant. And besides, I dare say their reputation has been hurt enough to drastically decrease sales for Halo 5. 343 have hired prior pro players to improve their image or something. They definitely try to look like they care.

PMBR is not a company anyway, and I haven't the faintest why you brought that up, if I'm honest.

 

[Hulter]

I can't believe this thread is even still alive.

Why?

Randomness is still dumb, and it's not yet been addressed.

 

[MattNF]

Randomness is dumb every match should be exactly the same and boring.

Guess we better re-add tripping then! After all, don't we want to have tons of SO RANDOM AND SILLY XDDDD fun?

You're on Smashboards, Brawl should have taught you seven years ago that companies do not give a **** about competitive scenes in the slightest.

Since when is the PMBR a company?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I know in Smash it is still fake randomness, like everywhere, but it might be possible to create a fake-randomness that can be accessible by players that want to put some time in it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Guess we better re-add tripping then! After all, don't we want to have tons of SO RANDOM AND SILLY XDDDD fun?



Since when is the PMBR a company?

ITT: terrible hyperboles, strawmen, and bottom quality posts.

Attacking only the worst arguments made from individuals as snide and contemptuous as yourself helps neither case.