Rate And Discuss Their Chances: Closed

[Onyx Oblivian]

Muddy Mole:

I was VERY uncertain about him, due to me not knowing of the game Mole Mania. However, after watching gameplay videos and informing myself about the creator and game itself, I've determined that I like him. haha

So 3.8 for want.

In terms of likelihood, I think that Sakurai might still be digging in the "NES" era, before the game boy era. and If he is digging through the game boy titles, For the Frog The Bell Tolls and Muddy Mole are definitely going to be the first on his list.

I just noticed my use of the term "digging"... no pun intended on that one haha.

Want: 3.8

Likelihood: 3.0

Oops. Nomination Time!

x5 for Chibi-Robo

Prediction:

Palutena: 3.8

 

[jigglover]

Right. I shall do the Pros and cons of Muddy mole to reach a verdict:
Pro: Has a lot of arguments for it.
Con: Most other characters have a lot of arguments for them.
Pro: Sakurai has showed a lot of interest in the character, as has a lot of fans.
Con: Has only had one game in the series.
Pro: Can bring a new mechanic to the game.
Con: Might be too hard for the producers to produce.
Pro: Good retro rep.
Con: Might make too many retro reps.
Right, that was just my thinking there. Want is 4.3 I love the character. Likelihood is... 3..21

 

[Opossum]

For Muddy Mole, my want is at 3.0; I don't know him to really want him or not. All I know is that he's a retro character. With that said, I give his likelihood a decent 3.0, because he's a retro character, and seeing as Game & Watch and R.O.B. were made playable to represent retro characters (though, in R.O.B.'s case, an accessory), who is to say they won't do the same for Muddy Mole, if they don't get the Duck Hunt Dog, or Balloon Fighter in before him? Also, didn't Sakurai acknowledge Muddy Mole's existence at one point? I forgot if he did, but assuming that was the case, it would indeed help his chances, if only by a little bit.

I nominate Rosalina x5

I'm typing from the Wii, so if this isn't formatted correctly, I apologize in advance. To answer your question, he did get a mention on the ''Brawl Poll," but the nature of it was unknown. It was rumored to be positive, however.

 

[---]

Want: 3
Likelihood: 1.5

He's a retro rep without much backing him up outside of that one mention (by the interviewer) in one of the more recent Sakurai interviews. Also would expect a moveset to be on the weird to program side kinda like Ridley. Besides that he does have a small cult following and that's about it.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Muddy Mole could potentially become an effective character on it's own, especially with the idea of a character that can play with the stage to his advantage. But I will say that Muddy does have a slightly better chance then the retros due to being the long lost "child" of Miyamoto. No guarantees, but it's a far better possibility then Mr. Peppers.

Want- 4.06
Likelihood- 3.66

For Palutena, I predict a 4.77.

Nominations are Starfy x3 and Megaman x2

 

[Starphoenix]

Want: 0
Likelihood: 1

Very easy

 

[kisamefishfries]

As BKupa666 said, its hard to rate retro reps, however I believe there are enough modern characters who deserve spots to where we don't need filler retros like rob and ice climbers. (G&W is different though) That being said I give muddy....
want: 1.5
likelihood: 2

nominations:
Lloyd Irving x3
Paper Mario x2
soon..... soon.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm going to play the game before I vote. It's out on eShop today

 

[Oasis_S]

I give Muddy one thumb down.

 

[MelMoe]

Nominations

Dixie Kong
Isaac
Lip
Saki
Little Mac

Voting & Discussing

Muddy Mole

Personal Bias: 2.3
Likelihood: 1.33

I did a little digging on Mole Mania & Muddy Mole before I came to my conclusion. His digging gimmick would be a nice welcome for Smash since new playstyles are somewhat rare. However not all stages will have solid or large platforms to burrow through, so his playability will rely on stages. He also has very little mentions compared to other retro or obscure characters. Mole Mania's only representation in Smash was in the Chronicle were all Nintendo franchises were listed. He was a character created by Miyamoto & Mole Mania was release on eShop today so that could help his chances. I prefer other retros such as: Takamaru, Lip, Mach Rider, & Sukapon.

Prediction

Palutena: 4.63

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So far the game has an amusing concept. The farmer ***** slapped Muddy Mole's wife with a hammer, than grabbed all his children by their tails.

Then some Kangaroo challenged me?

 

[N3ON]

I wouldn't mind seeing Muddy in the next Smash, but he's far from my most wanted retro character, and I believe we will only be seeing one (two if we get an unexpected/obscure character) retros, and honestly I prefer characters like Takamaru, BF, Sukapon, etc. However since apparently Sakurai likes him, and he would probably be fairly unique, I'll give him a:

Want: 2.5
Likelihood: 2

Nomz:
Isaac x5

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'll give Muddy Mole
Want: 3
Likelihood: 2.5

Sakurai wants retros for series revival. Muddy Mole doesn't seem like a series that can be revived thoroughly. I'm sure a 3D remake or something would be wonderful, but as an outright series I don't see much potential. THe game is amusing though.

Takamaru is the only character I see being able to be revived through smash. Sukapon is the only characer I WANT to be revived through smash

 

[Opossum]

I'll give Muddy Mole
Want: 3
Likelihood: 2.5

Sakurai wants retros for series revival. Muddy Mole doesn't seem like a series that can be revived thoroughly. I'm sure a 3D remake or something would be wonderful, but as an outright series I don't see much potential. THe game is amusing though.

Takamaru is the only character I see being able to be revived through smash. Sukapon is the only characer I WANT to be revived through smash

Actually, I think that it does have quite a bit of potential, mainly due to the 3DS. New challenging puzzles, 3D, and having the two screens to show what's going on above and underground at the same time. I think it may be something that would be interesting to see Sakurai attempt.

 

[jigglover]

Also predict low 4's for Palutena... how about 4.12.
Forgot to do my nominations before. Plusle and Minun are up for prediction tomorrow, that's pretty ground-in now but just in case I'll put in a few more nominations for them. I'll start with the character I think is the second most deserving. No, it's not in the order of my sig and don't worry, I'm not bringing Bucha or King Boo into this game, even though I think they would be awesome and unique, especially King Boo... oh... I'll do it then.
Plusle and Minun x2
Bowser Jr. x2
King Boo x1
Do I just have a habit for finding and liking characters nobody else does!?

 

[yani]

Muddy being a forgotten Miyamoto character leads me to believe he is a character Sakurai will definitely have his eyes on. He would also be a Gameboy/Puzzle retro character so that's always a plus as well.

Likely: 2.5
Want: 3

Shulk x5

 

[Opossum]

Not to mention the fact that in the slim chance of version exclusives, he'd definitely have a shot at the retro slot for the 3DS.


EDIT: Can I change my nominations? I didn't see Mewtwo so high up, so if possible, I'd like to transfer my x5 votes from Starfy to Mewtwo.

 

[jigglover]

I'd also like to point out that Sakurai shouldn't really start a series in Brawl that doesn't have many viable reps. If Muddy gets in, it would be a one night stand.
Opposum, are you really changing your nominations simply because I want P&M up for discussion tomorrow? Well two can play at that game!

 

[Opossum]

Nope. I just like Mewtwo, and seeing how high he was, I wanted to get him out of the way, as he is a fan favorite. To add to that, Ice Climbers, Game and Watch, and ROB say hi as far as "one night stands" (was that really the comparison you were going for?).

 

[jigglover]

Can't you just let P&M be up next, I really want to battle their case on here ASAP much like you wanted with Muddy. Mewtwo will be afterwards.
*Opens mouth, tries to speak, then closes it.
Opossum, you've got me there. I should have put more thought into that comment shouldn't I... I withdraw my argument.

 

[N3ON]

I'd also like to point out that Sakurai shouldn't really start a series in Brawl that doesn't have many viable reps. If Muddy gets in, it would be a one night stand.
Opposum, are you really changing your nominations simply because I want P&M up for discussion tomorrow? Well two can play at that game!

It wouldn't be the first time he did that (Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Pit (at the time of inclusion), hell, most retro series really only have one viable character), and I doubt he cares if a series only has one viable rep, as long as that one rep is a good one.

edit: Ninjad a while ago. Damn you, slow comp!

 

[jigglover]

I don't know what Ninjad or comp means, but I'm guessing it's said in a jokey attitude due to your laugh afterwards...

 

[deuxhero]

Likely: 3.5. Being made by Shiggy means a lot, though he is obscure.
Want: 3.5: Neither interested nor disinterested

Nominate Anna x5

 

[Arcadenik]

Given that Muddy Mole's game had a re-release on the 3DS VC today, I'd say he's not going to be obscure soon. I think if Muddy Mole somehow gets in SSB4, I think many people might vaguely recall Muddy Mole but not remember what game he came from... and then the knowledgeable fans would remind them of Mole Mania, the game that came on the 3DS VC alongside Wario Land.

I truly think Muddy Mole has a shot this time, especially when he is pretty much the only international Game Boy retro character we have. That gives him an advantage over Sabure Prince (who got a boost in fan support from that fake SSB4 leak last year) who is Japan-only.

Just finished beating the first level in Mole Mania, I am reminded why I aways thought Muddy Mole would make an interesting character. It's not just the digging playstyle he might bring, it's his personality that I really like, I could see that from his animations. I was already envisioning what his running attack would look like, what his throws would look like, what he would look like when he's attacked, etc. and I love the idea. I think he would also bring an interesting stage based on a farm called Jinbe Land. It might be based on the first world - seriously go download Mole Mania on the 3DS right now! You might see why Opossum and I would like Muddy Mole in Smash. Know what? I think he is now my #2 most-wanted retro character.

How much do I want Muddy Mole? 5
How likely would Muddy Mole get on the roster? 3

Who do I nominate? Duck Hunt Dog, Dixie Kong, Starfy, Toad, Tingle

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I am not quite familiar with Muddy Mole, who he is, what he represents, who his family is, or the actual game he comes from. In fact, I had Muddy confused with this particular mole:

So, with no prior knowledge to Muddy, I went to his support topic and browsed through the threads and started to find myself interested in this Muddy Mole more and more. I imagine his attacks would be centered around a hit and run approach while trying to remain unseen. It would be very interesting to see a character who can tunnel through the ground. A tunneling charged attack for his Dash A would be pretty epic.

However, Muddy has to contend with various Retro and Classic characters such as Takamaru, Lip, Mach Rider, Prince Sable, The Duck Hunt Dog, etc etc. Additionally, I would say Takamaru is one of the better retro characters from that list with Lip and Mach Rider behind. While playing as a mole is cool, I am not sure how many people are familiar with Muddy or would take personal delight in playing as him. That brings into question his popularity and what he can bring into Smash Bros.

While I think Muddy would be a very unique character, interesting character story, game play style, and the Mole Mania franchise would be an interesting inclusion into Smash Bros., I question it's overall popularity, what the mole can bring into Smash, and would Muddy convince doubters to play Smash. Overall, I am fairly indifferent and wouldn't see surprised if he made it in but he isn't my top choice.

For Muddy Mole:

Likeliness: 3.20
Want: 2.80

Palutena Prediction: 4.60

My Nominations:

Mewtwo x3
Saki x2

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Muddy Mole


Aah, Muddy. This guy's little hard to determine and analyze to me.

I really love his character, what his abilities can bring to his gameplay, how unique and fun he'd be to use. He really gets all the categories there for me. His game has excellent puzzles, characters, style, and of course, music. Really, this guy's all around amazing and original.

The only sad thing's just that he's so obscure still. He might've trounced Prince Sable in means of being internationally released, but Nintendo doesn't refer AT ALL to his game, nor this game gets mentioned in the community very much either. It thus might make me think that adding Muddy would feel kinda little out-of-place to me after all these years, especially since we have more well-known series to be added (Golden Sun, Starfy, etc.)

But what he at least needs is SOME nudge of popularity boost, because I would really wonder why he'd be added in an allstar game that is Smash Bros. He just feels pretty shadowed and everything now. Trying to bring him back would be quite a move, but might also rise the questions of "Why this series of all the Nintendo's revivable franchises?"

He might've been brought back for 3DS VC, but I'm stumped that all of Miyamoto's creations, he's the one who's just the most obscure.

Unless Sakurai wants to give yet another VIP-status to Miyamoto's franchises, I really, really am sceptical of how Muddy would fare in Smash. He's an excellent and unique character if added, but he just needs some more nudges and support from Nintendo now after getting his game re-released. (-l´l-); I though am looking forward to see more of Muddy because that's what he needs to gain his popularity to be appliable to Smash.

Likelihood: 3.2 (And this just comes from his game getting re-released...)

Want: 4.2.

Predicting Palutena to get 4.77.

Noms:

Lip x5.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I'm going to talk about my "theory" for a minute. This isn't going to be popular, but if I cared about that I wouldn't support half of the characters I do.

My theory is that Dark Samus has a very good chance if Sakurai decides he does not want to make Ridley playable. I don't believe for a second that the Nintendo Power article, where Sakurai was asked about Ridley, is what people think it is. It reads as somebody who is laughing off a suggestion rather than discussing technical feasibility, and after seeing his appearance in Brawl it is no wonder why he would think that. To add to this it a little known fact that Metroid is not exactly the high profile series in Japan. Not to say it isn't popular, but it is not what it is here in the West and generally lags behind other Nintendo series. This isn't to lay out a case about why Ridley shouldn't be in, I think he should, but just pointing out how he could miss the boat.

Now, time to tie into my theory. What I think could happen is that Sakurai observes a very legitimate demand for another Metroid character coming from the West, despite having two characters already (Zero Suit Samus counts as a separate character). After considering Ridley for a time he is ultimately going to pass over him, again, due to the "challenge" of balancing him [crap reasoning, but whatever]. Instead he will look through the series for another character, if any, he can use. He'll look at the semi-latest game in the Prime series and find Dark Samus. Seeing her as an easier character to implement Sakurai and Namco will proceed with development.

Months later, or whenever Dark Samus is revealed, there will be immense backlash across various Super Smash Bros forums, as well as a growing fear of Ridley not making it onto the roster. Especially if she is even remotely "clone-y."

Finally, all of the horror of the Ridley community will be culminated when Sakurai reveals the Geothermal Power Plant stage, and just like the stage in Dead or Alive Dimensions, Ridley is a background hazard. All hell will break loose and will probably be the anti equivalent to Sonic's Brawl reveal. Super Smash Bros 4 will be deemed a joke by angry fans and will proceed in turning their seething anger onto the "less important semi clone POS". It will become one of those days that live in cyber infamy. For those without any vested interest, it'll probably be hilarious, but for everyone else not as much. Either that or he just doesn't show up at all, in which case there is still resentment.

Ridley still not being playable is one thing, which part of me or my subconscious wouldn't be surprised by, but just doing the exact same thing with him in SSB4 as what they did in DoA Dimensions would be such a copout, I don't think I even acknowledged it as a possibility until now, though leave it to a Dark Samus supporter to put a dark image like that in my head. Just the thought of that and the reactions almost makes me want to support her less now, and I've supported her more than most of those who want Ridley.

Spoiler

And if all that really does happen, I would probably want to smack you IRL for being the first I saw to think of that.

Muddy Mole-
Want: 3.0
Likelihood: 3.5

Nominations:
Mewtwo x3
Rosalina x2

 

[Deleted member]

@Ridley_Prime: Might be good to at least give a brief explanation for your vote as I did state I wanted that in the "Fallacious Argument Not Allowed" section in order for a vote to count. This is mainly to avoid high or low votes that counter the rating (not that you're doing it and thankfully, no one is doing it).

Also, updated nominations in the OP.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

You mean what I voted for Muddy Mole or the two characters I nominated? Well I gave Muddy a fair 3.0 because he's cool but at the same time I'm kinda indifferent about his inclusion. My instincts tell me he has a slightly higher chance than how much I want him in though (I saw others vote before without really giving a reason at all, so I figured it'd be fine if I did the same. My apologies).

 

[Deleted member]

Muddy Mole

Muddy Mole isn't a bad idea for a retro choice. It'd be like the next Ice Climbers of the series, but I am doubting him getting in.

The digging mechanic, if implemented correctly, can make Muddy Mole a popular retro choice, if unexpected one. However, there comes the problem that some stages don't have enough for Muddy Mole for digging, so that would put Muddy Mole in an unfair disadvantage. Now Opossum did suggest he could attack down the ground in stages with little ground, but Muddy Mole still can't use his mechanic. It's not like the Illusion with Zoroark that you can simply butcher it and Zoroark can use it in every stage (if he is playable). The mechanic is unusable in several stages and that is going to hurt him in the long run.

Muddy Mole's only hope is that Sakurai gives him the retro remake treatment so that Sakurai can give him ideas for moves without having to use the digging mechanic and help him reach the first criteria. But with evidence supporting Mach Rider getting it next, I don't think there's much hope for his inclusion.

I give him a 0.5 in likelihood. Feel I could be wrong about this, but I doubt I am.

 

[Deleted member]

@Ridley_Prime: Your explanation for how likely you consider Muddy Mole. You don't have to explain why you do or do not want Muddy Mole and you sure don't have to explain your nominations (that would be a waste of time).

Anyway, your explanation suffice.

 

[BKupa666]

I do think the digging mechanic is possible pretty much everywhere except for drop-through platforms.

Just have Muddy Mole dig down a short distance and become an attackable bulge in the stage. To prevent too much craziness or stalling, he can only dig horizontal tunnels, rather than burrow down into the earth and out the bottom of the stage. That shouldn't be too difficult to program.

 

[deuxhero]

Predict 4.5

 

[MelMoe]

I do think the digging mechanic is possible pretty much everywhere except for drop-through platforms.

Just have Muddy Mole dig down a short distance and become an attackable bulge in the stage. To prevent too much craziness or stalling, he can only dig horizontal tunnels, rather than burrow down into the earth and out the bottom of the stage. That shouldn't be too difficult to program.

Isn't the digging suppose to be an ambush attack? Also, there wouldn't be much of a point if he could always be attacked while underground; attacks like DK's handslap could affect him.

A couple of stages in Brawl wouldn't be able to support the mechanic because base platforms aren't thick enough. There are also many stages are composed of thin or drop-through platforms & only have one "dig-able" base. Stages like SkyWorld, Big Blue, Rumble Falls, & Hanenbow would also be a problem.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Muddy Mole:
I really don't think he'll be the next 'retro' character to be added to Smash, because not only is he the least requested retro for Smash, but he is also the least known and popular.

Want: 0.8
Likelihood: 1.2

Nominations:
Waluigi
Black Shadow
Samurai Goroh
Roy
Mach Rider

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I forgot my nominations. Since it's the same day, I should be fine...right?

I want Tom Nook x5 this time

 

[BKupa666]

Isn't the digging suppose to be an ambush attack? Also, there wouldn't be much of a point if he could always be attacked while underground; attacks like DK's handslap could affect him.

A couple of stages in Brawl wouldn't be able to support the mechanic because base platforms aren't thick enough. There are also many stages are composed of thin or drop-through platforms & only have one "dig-able" base. Stages like SkyWorld, Big Blue, Rumble Falls, & Hanenbow would also be a problem.

I suppose it doesn't matter now, but he could always have super armor for some time, or simply use the digging as an ambush-style counter, tunneling around behind the foe to attack them.

While I think he could still reasonably dig into the stages you mentioned, just by becoming a bulge on the surface rather than digging down (he could even pop out the bottom of drop-through platforms, like the victims of DK's headbutt), whether this gets implemented depends on how much effort the developers want to put into it. Ridley has the fanbase to warrant said effort, but I'm not so sure about Muddy Mole.

 

[MelMoe]

^
¦

I suppose a "dig counter" could work. Rather than using his mechanic as an ambush he could just dig temporary pitfalls or something; one "enter" pitfall & one "exit" pitfall. Pitfalls already work on drop-through platforms so it could work. Hmm, he could also uses the holes he made as some sort of teleport. This idea actually made me consider him more.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

How could someone not like Mole Mania. It has big black balls that muddy loves to move around the course

 

[Opossum]

Very well put, Psycho. I don't see how anyone can possibly take that the wrong way.


This has been quite a long day for Muddy.