Recovery Tier List

[Nintendude]

i meant distance wise, you must really dislike ICs, cause their recovery isn't THAT bad, it's not good, but it's not horrible like you're making it out to be

also, ICs up b and forward b both go farther than g&w's up b,

1. If this list was solely about distance you wouldn't have used edgeguarding situations to justify your placements on the list.
2. I have nothing against the ICs, and they are even my main. What I dislike is lack of logic and common sense.
3. I already know that ICs recovery moves go farther than g&w's up-B, but we've already established that the recovery tier list is not based solely on distance covered.

 

[Impp]

I main Kirby, and my second is Link. I'd much rather get knocked off the ledge with Link. Kirby is easy to edge guard. Kirby just doesn't have many options in coming back. (against a good Marth it's pretty much game over) Link has an awesome recovery. He's got so many options with his hook shot and Up and B. I'm not factoring in bomb throws, since I can only pull them about 1/2 of the time I try. He's a pain to edge guard. He can also throw bombs at edge guarders which is quite a plus. It's not uncommon for a Link to reach 200%+( I know weight is a factor with this, but recoveries got something to do with it) Ranking him below Ganon is strange.

 

[mood4food77]

i don't know, that middle group is such a pain, we need more about the other characters before i change it, cause right now, they're top of that group as is

 

[Nintendude]

Well, here's some quick changes I'd make, based on what I said before:

Make high tier Link, Fox, Ganon, G&W
Put Sheik and Marth in mid-tier
Put Zelda and ICs in bottom tier.
Put Falco in low tier

 

[mood4food77]

falco's recovery sucks, he can't make it back, the bottom tier is of the characters who can barely make it back to the stage

zelda and ICs at least have shots to get back to the stage, and can still make it back after being edgegaurded, the bottom tier basically doesn't have a shot

 

[Nintendude]

There's a difference though. Out of almost all the characters on the bottom half of the list, Falco has by far the greatest chance of surviving when he's within range of the stage. This is due to the fact that he has all of Fox's options. The only important difference is that he goes like 2/3 the length.

Zelda sucks because all the opponent needs to do is get on the edge, which forces to Zelda to come above the stage, and then come up and smash her back out. It's basically like the ICs' recovery but worse. Also, Zelda often gets stuck on the edges of stages, like when coming from below FD. She also can't grab the ledge during her ending animation, as she spins around backwards and can't grab the ledge while facing away.

You need to consider common situations rather than distance when making a list like this.

 

[mood4food77]

most commonly zelda and ICs make it back more than falco does....

 

[Ornj]

oh and note that falcos side-b spikes ppl

 

[Nintendude]

most commonly zelda and ICs make it back more than falco does....

Not really. From what I've seen Ken has a much easier time edgeguarding Chu than PC's Falco, and that's about as elite as you get. As for Zelda, I haven't seen much of that except when Sheik is the actual character being used, so I can't make a good call solely based on vids. Though, I often see Zelda recovery attempts from a Sheik player result in Zelda's death.

 

[Nintendude]

oh and note that falcos side-b spikes ppl

I don't think that matters because tier lists only matter at peak metagame, and if the person can't meteor cancel it isn't peak metagame.

 

[mood4food77]

it doesn't matter, how often does that part matter anyways, and it's a meteor, so it can be cancelled

falco doesn't get edgegaurded as much as ICs or zelda cause he doesn't have to be, he's most likely not making it back, even pichu can survive longer than falco on average

 

[Nintendude]

When a lot of characters on the bottom half of the list get hit past Falco's recovering range, they get edgeguarded like 50% of the time anyway, so is that really such a severe disadvantage?

 

[mood4food77]

how many times do the ICs get edgegaurded compared to falco

how many times do the ICs make it back to the stage compared to falco

you're taking edgegaurding way too much into effect, yes ICs are easier to edgegaurd but does it maek them worse than falco who can barely make it back to the stage half the time

 

[linkmastersword]

Well, here's some quick changes I'd make, based on what I said before:

Make high tier Link, Fox, Ganon, G&W
Put Sheik and Marth in mid-tier
Put Zelda and ICs in bottom tier.
Put Falco in low tier

agreed.

but falco needs to stay lower than ICs no matter what. his recovery is a joke.

 

[Ornj]

I don't think that matters because tier lists only matter at peak metagame, and if the person can't meteor cancel it isn't peak metagame.

aww but the spike helps him from being edgeguarded

 

[Nintendude]

how many times do the ICs get edgegaurded compared to falco

how many times do the ICs make it back to the stage compared to falco

you're taking edgegaurding way too much into effect, yes ICs are easier to edgegaurd but does it maek them worse than falco who can barely make it back to the stage half the time

I do not think I'm taking edgeguarding too much into effect at all. Tier lists only apply at peak metagame. This is implying that the edgeguarder will be extremely competent. You only have so many options while recovering, and the best edgeguarders can deal with almost every predictable situation. Falco is one of the few characters that can effectively use mindgames to get around edgeguards, which is what separates him from a lot of the other low / bottom tier characters on this list.

 

[mood4food77]

falco goes like nowhere with his recovery, ICs go really far with their recovery

falco's harder to edgegaurd than ICs, but not by much

now if both were taken into effect equally, who would have the overall better recovery...ICs, why cause their distance compared to falco while recovery is much greater than the fact that they get edgegaurded more easily than falco does

get what i'm saying

all of the characters in bottom tier are the recoveries that negate their ability to survive long, like doc and mario don't survive as long as they should cause of their recovery, most of the time, these characters are dying downwards because of not making it back to the ledge, they do it much more often than the rest of the characters, hence why they are not edgegaurded as much

look at ganondorf, he's one of the easiest characters to edgegaurd, if not the easiest, but what makes his recovery so good, he can come back again and again

ganon and ICs make it back the most often out of that middle group, doesn't that mean their recoveries are better

 

[Nintendude]

falco goes like nowhere with his recovery, ICs go really far with their recovery

falco's harder to edgegaurd than ICs, but not by much

now if both were taken into effect equally, who would have the overall better recovery...ICs, why cause their distance compared to falco while recovery is much greater than the fact that they get edgegaurded more easily than falco does

get what i'm saying

all of the characters in bottom tier are the recoveries that negate their ability to survive long, like doc and mario don't survive as long as they should cause of their recovery, most of the time, these characters are dying downwards because of not making it back to the ledge, they do it much more often than the rest of the characters, hence why they are not edgegaurded as much

look at ganondorf, he's one of the easiest characters to edgegaurd, if not the easiest, but what makes his recovery so good, he can come back again and again

ganon and ICs make it back the most often out of that middle group, doesn't that mean their recoveries are better

I'll just use some specific examples I guess. Lets take for instance Falco and Kirby. If Falco gets hit only a little off, he's difficult to edgeguard. If Kirby gets hit just a little off, I'd say it's a little easier since he's predictable and slower. Now, lets assume we're talking about a distance barely beyond where Falco can get back from. Obviously, Falco dies 100% of the time, but Kirby will also die a lot of time provided there's a competant edgeguarder at the ledge. Therefore, the fact that Falco automatically dies doesn't mean much because Kirby will be dying a lot of the time at that same range anyway.

Falco is a lot different from the two bottom tier characters above him too. When Falcon, for instance, gets off the edge, he's even more vulnerable than Falco since he is a lot more predictable and his up-B gets hit by almost anything, so he dies from that a lot more than Falco does. When dealing with instances beyond Falco's recovering range, Falcon will pretty much always die for the same reasons. The fact that he can make it back to the stage while Falco can't doesn't matter because Falcon always gets edgeguarded anyway.

I also you think you should back up statements such as "ganon and ICs make it back the most often out of that middle group, doesn't that mean their recoveries are better," because I find that completely wrong. Out of that list, Marth, Sheik, Fox (especially him), and Link make it back very often. When Chu Dat goes up against a competant player and gets off the stage, he loses Nana a very large percentage of the time, and often dies himself. When he's Popo alone and goes off the edge, he usually comes back and is sent off again repeatedly, and eventually dies without really doing anything but demonstrating attrition.

 

[mood4food77]

but falco's recovery sucks, how can you compare falco to that middle group, his up b and forward b are half the length of that of fox's, yes he has more priority (his up b goes through samus' fully charged b), but does it matter, i find him one of the easiest characters to edgegaurd

the top 6 recoveries are the best in terms of recovering, and 5 of them are the hardest to edgegaurd, mewtwo is probably the 6th hardest character to edgegaurd

falco's recovery isn't good, he's fairly easy to edgegaurd and his airdodge does crap for him, he's not heavy so he dies earlier, he's a fast faller, killing his recovery, there's nothing good with his recovery, 1 IC alone has better recovery than falco, you can't compare the two, the fact that falco isn't as easy to edgegaurd as ICs doesn't matter if he can't make it back to the stage, so most people don't even bother, falco and fox are easy to edgegaurd, that's why they attempt to sweetspot the ledge everytime, and there is no way in heck that kirby is easier to edgegaurd than falco, no way, kirby can use his rock to get lower and still use his jumps to get back, his rock can act like bowser's and yoshi's down b also, falco's recovery sucks, it's why he's in bottom tier

 

[Nintendude]

but falco's recovery sucks, how can you compare falco to that middle group, his up b and forward b are half the length of that of fox's, yes he has more priority (his up b goes through samus' fully charged b), but does it matter, i find him one of the easiest characters to edgegaurd

You and the people you face are nowhere near peak metagame, so that really doesn't matter at all. If the Falco is PC or Bombsoldier's calibur, and he only gets knocked a little off the stage, he's gonna be a pain to edgeguard. If Ken and other pros hav trouble with it, then Falco is tough to edgeguard. Of course, this is only when Falco wasn't hit off far.

the top 6 recoveries are the best in terms of recovering, and 5 of them are the hardest to edgegaurd, mewtwo is probably the 6th hardest character to edgegaurd

They are also the hardest to edgeguard regardless of how far they got sent out. That's why they are so high. If (hypothetically) edgeguarding Pichu when he's sent out far was as easy as edgeguarding Falcon, then he wouldn't be so high.

falco's recovery isn't good, he's fairly easy to edgegaurd and his airdodge does crap for him, he's not heavy so he dies earlier, he's a fast faller, killing his recovery, there's nothing good with his recovery, 1 IC alone has better recovery than falco, you can't compare the two, the fact that falco isn't as easy to edgegaurd as ICs doesn't matter if he can't make it back to the stage, so most people don't even bother, falco and fox are easy to edgegaurd, that's why they attempt to sweetspot the ledge everytime, and there is no way in heck that kirby is easier to edgegaurd than falco, no way, kirby can use his rock to get lower and still use his jumps to get back, his rock can act like bowser's and yoshi's down b also, falco's recovery sucks, it's why he's in bottom tier

You are wrong in a bunch of ways.
1. Falco is not easy to edgeguard if he isn't sent out far. I've said this repeatedly. Can you explain to me why the top players let Falco return if he's easy to edgeguard?

2. Explain why the fact that 1 IC can go much farther than Falco gives him better recovery. You act as if a rock sits at the edge when the opponent gets knocked off the stage.

3. Fox is easy to edgeguard? Sure, that's why Ken lets Mew2King get away with recovering over and over and over. There's also a good reason why Mew2King always sweetspots and survives: it's safe and it works.

4. lmao at Kirby's rock making him harder to edgeguard. You seem to be forgetting that Kirby can't grab the ledge as a falling rock, while Bowser and Yoshi can with their down-Bs.

Anyone else want to give input on this? If it's just me and m4f debating we won't get anywhere.

 

[mood4food77]

if you release kirby's down b at the right point he'll instantly grab the ledge...

maybe cause i'm a ganon user i find falco and fox easier to edgegaurd (also, ken uses fox...fox doesn't have a trusty edgegaurd like ganon), marth is about timing

also, with most characters, it's easier to edgegaurd fox and falco than ICs

sweetspotting the ledge isn't safe, it's just the smartest thing you can do, also the safest, being off the stage is in no way safe

i have played good falco's (storms), i'm the only IC player by me, kinda can't play myself, but storms is better than me and his falco gets edgegaurded a whole of a lot more than my ICs do

 

[Magus420]

I'd say Mewtwo is the 2nd/3rd hardest character to edgeguard really. Definitely not 6th.

 

[mood4food77]

jiggs, peach, samus, pika, and pichu all i thought were harder to edgegaurd than mewtwo, mewtwo's jump i thought was easy...or is it cause of his DJ boost

 

[Mew2King]

Nah dude, Fox's recovery really isn't that good, there's plenty you can do about it it's just Ken and most people assume you won't sweet spot perfectly so they F smash early so that they hit a badly sweet spotted up B. His recovery's not as good as I used to think it was.

 

[shadydentist]

Is this seriously a comparison between falco's recovery and IC's recovery? While I think IC's are a bit too high on the list, their recovery is nowhere as bad as Falco's . Light weight, fast faller, ridiculously short up and forward Bs...

With two ice climbers, the side B goes both really high and really far. Even with one ice climber, side B gets respectable horizontal distance. This is not even a fair contest.

 

[mood4food77]

also, isn't falco the easiest character to spike in the game?

 

[Nintendude]

if you release kirby's down b at the right point he'll instantly grab the ledge...

Oh, I didn't know that. Are there any vids of that?

maybe cause i'm a ganon user i find falco and fox easier to edgegaurd (also, ken uses fox...fox doesn't have a trusty edgegaurd like ganon), marth is about timing

i have played good falco's (storms), i'm the only IC player by me, kinda can't play myself, but storms is better than me and his falco gets edgegaurded a whole of a lot more than my ICs do

Once again, that doesn't really matter since you don't play at peak metagame. I also use ICs and I believe I'm somewhat near you, so you aren't alone. How can you say Fox doesn't have trusty edgeguarding either? Shine can go through like anything, up-smash is one of the best moves in the game to use to take advantage of vulnerable recoveries *coughICscough*, and he's also great with ledgehopped bairs and stuff.

also, with most characters, it's easier to edgegaurd fox and falco than ICs

Not if the Foxes and Falcos are smart....

sweetspotting the ledge isn't safe, it's just the smartest thing you can do, also the safest, being off the stage is in no way safe

Obviously being on the stage is safer than being off the stage, and you just agreed with me that sweetspotting is the smartest and safest thing to do. I don't get what you are trying to argue here.

I'm getting kind of tired of going around in circles getting nowhere. Someone else give input please.

 

[Nintendude]

also, isn't falco the easiest character to spike in the game?

I would give that title to Ganon or Falcon.

m2k, even if you sweetspot and get hit, can't you just edgetech forward-B to survive?

 

[Magus420]

jiggs, peach, samus, pika, and pichu all i thought were harder to edgegaurd than mewtwo, mewtwo's jump i thought was easy...or is it cause of his DJ boost

Yeah, his jump isn't very hard to edgeguard, but when above the height of the edge (which will almost always be the case even w/o a jump, barring bad DI or following a spike) Mewtwo is pretty much guaranteed the edge or landing on the stage or a platform with no lag with his up-b. It also has a far quicker startup time on the invincibility and direction than the other teleporters.

 

[mood4food77]

m2k just said fox's recovery isn't that good, ken wasn't expecting m2k to sweetspot

i'm one of the top ganon users in NY, if not the top (cause of lack of ganon users in NY ) and trust me, you don't have to be at top metagame to figure out how easy to edgegaurd a fox/falco is

irvington is i think at least an hour away, not sure though, we always race them in track...at least the diceasare twins are gone (freaking nasty)...just gotta worry bout the little one

fox and falco can only go in one direction, ICs can over shoot the opponent and land too far for them to attack

 

[Nintendude]

m2k just said fox's recovery isn't that good, ken wasn't expecting m2k to sweetspot

That doesn't mean it's really bad though, and there's also other top players that m2k face that fail to edgeguard him a lot.

i'm one of the top ganon users in NY, if not the top (cause of lack of ganon users in NY ) and trust me, you don't have to be at top metagame to figure out how easy to edgegaurd a fox/falco is

Doesn't phish-it main ganon?

irvington is i think at least an hour away, not sure though, we always race them in track...at least the diceasare twins are gone (freaking nasty)...just gotta worry bout the little one

fox and falco can only go in one direction, ICs can over shoot the opponent and land too far for them to attack

Haha I remember the DiCesares...yeah they were gods at the pole vault.

If ICs overshoot the opponent then what's stopping the opponent from just walking up to them and smashing? They fall really slowly and it's easy to see where they will end up.

Do you at least agree on moving the ICs down on the list? You really just put them ridiculously high. If you don't agree that their recovery is horrible maybe you can agree that they should be moved down a tier or two.

As for Falco, I would say he deserves at least top of bottom tier. Do you agree with that? I honestly don't see how Falcon and Mario are better.

 

[mood4food77]

i'll move them down, but not incredibly low

phish-it mains peach last time i checked

if he does main ganon, it's between us two, i might edge him out a little on fox's and falco's though

holy crap the DiCesares were amazing...and the young one was fast at the 100 also, but i was still faster

falcon and mario make it back the stage more often than falco does, but really, that entire bottom group is tied

if ICs overshoot their opponent, most of the time the ICs are low to the ground

 

[Scrubs]

I think Doc should be moved above Falco for the following reasons:

- Doc can cover more horizontal distance with his recovery. Try to make it from the very right edge of Hyrule Temple to the lowest platform down near the cave. Falco is the only character in the game that can't make this gap. (note i play pal)

- Doc's recovery is harder to edge guard than Falco's. Doc can throw out a couple of pills while returning to the stage to intercept edge guarders. Doc can also use is cape to deter edge guarders. As well as being able to use his tornado to stall so that the edge guarder may become confused. I know that the tornado isn't going to throw off a good player so it isn't that useful but if it works 1 out of 100 times it is still better than nothing. Doc's air dodge is also somewhat useful when compared to Falco's. Doc's Up-B has surprising range and a large amount of priority. Falco has....well nothing except for shortening his illusion but that is only useful when he is close to the stage.

 

[arrowhead]

this list probably isn't for PAL

 

[mood4food77]

nope...why, you got PAL, it really shouldn't be that much different, if any at all

 

[Scrubs]

Hahaha the fact that I play PAL was the least important part of that post. I don't know why both of you decided to focus on it, maybe because it is shiny, pretty brackets. I play pal because I live in Australia.

Anyway the point of the post was to illustrate why Doc should be above Falco.

 

[Earthbound360]

I agree with scrubs. Falco is a bit too high. Doc should be above him. He has more options and can attak as he recovers (pills). He falls slower and such and weighs more.

 

[Red Exodus]

Ness' recovery should be lower due to the fact that you can screw Ness over by jumping into PK thunder, or by hitting it with something, just as Samus' charged shots, or Peach's turnips.

 

[mood4food77]

peach's turnips will save him....
samus charge shot, depends on if he's using his sheild or not (most likely no) so then yes, that'll work

and yes, jumping into his pk thunder hurts him...but it's very risky sometimes

 

[Red Exodus]

I have to try it to see how feasible it is.