Resolving The Brawl Crisis (For those who wish to see Brawl improved)

[Raging_Missiles]

Do any of you remeber what it was like waiting in anxious anticpation for the sequel to one of Nintendos greatest hits? Dreaming of all the new and improved characters and endless combo possibilities. Hoping that Sonic , Knuckles , Megaman, Diddy, Trixie, or Metaknight would make it to the Brawl lineup. And as E - for all debuted Brawl to the public how much hope we had for the smash community.I do. But what happened?

Well it seems as if our hopes and desires seemed to have been overlooked and disregarded by the exclusion of the game physics of Mellee.

This makes sense from (from the buisness point of view). WE told them what we wanted -brand new characters, new stages, more options like replays. But we forgot the most crucial part. Speed and Control.

Well now the only real logical solution is to simply tell them that we want a new game.Old and familiar but sleek and fresh.

Now the question is, how do we get them to make a new game? Well i suggest that the respectable moderators of the boards or those with connections to the creators of Brawl show Sakurai and those responsible for Smash that there are Thousands if not millions of people would buy a new Smash. All they would have to do is look on the boards to see the following that smash has.

If ,somehow, that this idea would not be economically feasible then the best thing to do would be to initiate Online Brawl updates that would help make Brawl more popular. And if this could not be a possible solution then hopefully someone could post their unique solution.


SIDE NOTE

This thread does not imply any negativity towards Brawl or Fans of Brawl and was simply created in response to those who dislike or see little hope of Brawl evolving into the competive game we ALL hoped for

PLZ no flamming any posts because the Boards was created in the hopes of sharing productive ideas

(Oh and I went looking for a Topic like this but didnt find. Sorry if there is already one like this)

 

[Deleted member]

Ummmm.....Who is Trixie? Do you mean Dixie?

Seriously, that's all I got.

 

[Newskool]

"Scuze me, Mister Sakurai, but could be have a new game? Pretty pretty please with sugar on top?"

Games cost money and time. I doubt that nintendo will give us a new game after they spent 7 years on the one that's barely been out a month.

 

[LavisFiend]

I don't think anybody here has any connections with the Brawl staff as you are eluding too.

The prophets were a lie.

 

[EmperorCesar]

Fail........

 

[Zink]

besides, sakurai actively dislikes us.

 

[Deleted member]

"Scuze me, Mister Sakurai, but could be have a new game? Pretty pretty please with sugar on top?"

Games cost money and time. I doubt that nintendo will give us a new game after they spent 7 years on the one that's barely been out a month.

QFT. Nintendo needs time to come up with new IP, characters in existing franchises, et cetera.

 

[J0K3R]

Do any of you remeber what it was like waiting in anxious anticpation for the sequel to one of Nintendos greatest hits? Dreaming of all the new and improved characters and endless combo possibilities. Hoping that Sonic , Knuckles , Megaman, Diddy, Trixie, or Metaknight would make it to the Brawl lineup. And as E - for all debuted Brawl to the public how much hope we had for the smash community.I do. But what happened?

Well it seems as if our hopes and desires seemed to have been overlooked and disregarded by the exclusion of the game physics of Mellee.

This makes sense from (from the buisness point of view). WE told them what we wanted -brand new characters, new stages, more options like replays. But we forgot the most crucial part. Speed and Control.

Well now the only real logical solution is to simply tell them that we want a new game.Old and familiar but sleek and fresh.

Now the question is, how do we get them to make a new game? Well i suggest that the respectable moderators of the boards or those with connections to the creators of Brawl show Sakurai and those responsible for Smash that there are Thousands if not millions of people would buy a new Smash. All they would have to do is look on the boards to see the following that smash has.

If ,somehow, that this idea would not be economically feasible then the best thing to do would be to initiate Online Brawl updates that would help make Brawl more popular. And if this could not be a possible solution then hopefully someone could post their unique solution.


SIDE NOTE

This thread does not imply any negativity towards Brawl or Fans of Brawl and was simply created in response to those who dislike or see little hope of Brawl evolving into the competive game we ALL hoped for

PLZ no flamming any posts because the Boards was created in the hopes of sharing productive ideas

(Oh and I went looking for a Topic like this but didnt find. Sorry if there is already one like this)

As cool as new content would be from the internet, it wildly unlikely that that would be feasible because of the amount of people who play offline and dont get said content.

 

[Nafix]

you're a homo, stop spamming the boards

 

[That_Move_is_Key]

"Hey, Sakurai, could you make a new Game for us? This one sucks."
Not exactly a nice thing to say.
Now, if you're saying this is what we should have done, or could do in, like, four years, sure, it's a good idea, but at the moment, if we don't enjoy what we've got, we're just going to seem like ungrateful selfish gits.

Edit: and from the threads I've seen, it's no surprise if he already thinks that.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Nafix

He's a Smash Director--In charge of some tournaments. You're telling him to stop flaming, that's epic fail.

 

[M.K]

 

[Doc_Gerbil]

besides, sakurai actively dislikes us.

What?? Why?

 

[Raging_Missiles]

Well i was hoping to get something productive out of your guys but......

I just want to see smash be the same epic game it was since the 64 and apparently ppl arent going to abide by the request i had placed above (not flamming) although i should have added spamming

This wasnt meant to be taken as a some kind of bash on sakurai or the rest of the creators of Brawl but just a simple plea to give those who THINK that smash isnt competitive enough a chance to voice their opinions in a positive way rather than just going to the thread where all you do is complain.

As of right now Brawl has inspired nothing but hateful narrow minded thinking. Overnight fanboys to a game that has some history. (That Move is Key)(Sorry if u really didnt mean anything by it)

Nowhere in my writing did I say we were going to insult sakurai and demand a new copy. All I am saying is that because there are fans who would be willing to pay and play a "Mellee 2.0" that they have incentive to make a new game.

Now unless anyone here really wants Smash to be a shadow of its former self plz post something worthwhile.

 

[Blackbelt]

Well i was hoping to get something productive out of your guys but......

I just want to see smash be the same epic game it was since the 64 and apparently ppl arent going to abide by the request i had placed above (not flamming) although i should have added spamming

This wasnt meant to be taken as a some kind of bash on sakurai or the rest of the creators of Brawl but just a simple plea to give those who THINK that smash isnt competitive enough a chance to voice their opinions in a positive way rather than just going to the thread where all you do is complain.

As of right now Brawl has inspired nothing but hateful narrow minded thinking. Overnight fanboys to a game that has some history. (That Move is Key)(Sorry if u really didnt mean anything by it)

Nowhere in my writing did I say we were going to insult sakurai and demand a new copy. All I am saying is that because there are fans who would be willing to pay and play a "Mellee 2.0" that they have incentive to make a new game.

Now unless anyone here really wants Smash to be a shadow of its former self plz post something worthwhile.

Shadow of its former self?

....oh, come on, stop living in the past, and look towards the future.

 

[Xengri]

Now, I'm with you in that, I'd want Nintendo to make another smash game that's more of a fast paced, offensive game, but you're plan is kind of idealistic....

Well i suggest that the respectable moderators of the boards or those with connections to the creators of Brawl show Sakurai and those responsible for Smash that there are Thousands if not millions of people would buy a new Smash.

See, there's the problem.
As far as I'm aware of, no one here has connections with the smash creators. And, even if they did, I doubt it's one that gives them any influence over the game.

Besides, as Zink said, Sakurai basically dislikes competitve smash, so I doubt he'd make another game just to undo his damage to it.

 

[Tofu Beast]

/

 

[LoVer]

There is no crisis. The game is great.

 

[crosser43]

There is no crisis. The game is great.

beat me to it

 

[IWuvGeno]

I sympathize with the OP's points, and have wanted many times for patches or exploits to fix what is so horribly broken.

Whoever was a part of making this game made some inexcusable mistakes. To think that a developer and a publisher wouldn't go out of their way include download-able patches for a game with so many variables - it's mind-boggling really.

Some of the community here expects to fix this wreck with exploits and glitches.... that's blind faith for you. That's like hoping you're going to win the lottery. Others think it's good the way it is...

 

[AlexX]

If people had no problem with exploits and glitches in Melee, why should they have any issues with the ones now aside from the fact they're different?

I'm not saying they're good, I'm just saying that being okay with them in Melee, but not with the ones in Brawl is kind of silly.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Well i was hoping to get something productive out of your guys but......

I just want to see smash be the same epic game it was since the 64 and apparently ppl arent going to abide by the request i had placed above (not flamming) although i should have added spamming

This wasnt meant to be taken as a some kind of bash on sakurai or the rest of the creators of Brawl but just a simple plea to give those who THINK that smash isnt competitive enough a chance to voice their opinions in a positive way rather than just going to the thread where all you do is complain.

As of right now Brawl has inspired nothing but hateful narrow minded thinking. Overnight fanboys to a game that has some history. (That Move is Key)(Sorry if u really didnt mean anything by it)

Nowhere in my writing did I say we were going to insult sakurai and demand a new copy. All I am saying is that because there are fans who would be willing to pay and play a "Mellee 2.0" that they have incentive to make a new game.

Now unless anyone here really wants Smash to be a shadow of its former self plz post something worthwhile.

My god, you are so picky, listen, if you believed that, after 7 **** years, that he was going to make the same game with OMG WAVEDASHING FOXTROT LOL OMG WE NEED AN EXPANSION PACK TO MELEE, KEEP EVERYTHING THE SAME LOL, then you are the one who set yourself up for disapointment, NOT SAKURAI, NOT NINTENDO, NOT BRAWL, BUT YOU.

Seriously, get over it, you sound like a baby who keeps crying to his mommy because his macaroni and cheese isn't the way she made it yesterday. Also one more thing, if sakurai did infact LEAVE all those advanced tournament tactics in, and we had online mode, then about the 99.9% of smash bros players that don't do that will just give up, its the same thing as mario kart ds and snaking (they removed snaking from Wii one). Now i know many elitist like to beat "scrubs" and laugh, but nintendo makes money from people being online, and if everyone leaves, they wont get as much money.

Kinda went off topic, but whatever.

 

[Raging_Missiles]

WOW u guys ... jsut wow

First off everyone (except Xengri) after my last post was basically one of THOSE OVERNIGHT FANBOYS OF BRAWL LOL

second this whole thread was supposed to be for those who think that brawl is messed up needs either

A)Pathches
Or
B)needs a new game to replace it

Now i know that we cant simply demand it but complacency is a vice we as humans cant afford to have

Brawl has seemed to have really started off on a bad foot , especially with cocky kids thinking that they have some wieght in whatever they say. Mellee may have created bad blood once in awhile but im hearing -frequently i might add- taht brawl attendies have been acting in childish and creating a schism between themselves and former mellee players who gave brawl a chance.

I expect to see this in Xbox games like Halo or CoD4 because they are FPS's and tension gets high in those games but this is supposed to be a FUN competitive game

BTW - thx for some support IWuvGeno and ICantCount just keep comments like that to ureself

 

[Guy in a floppy green cap]

WOW u guys ... jsut wow

First off everyone (except Xengri) after my last post was basically one of THOSE OVERNIGHT FANBOYS OF BRAWL LOL

second this whole thread was supposed to be for those who think that brawl is messed up needs either

A)Pathches
Or
B)needs a new game to replace it

Now i know that we cant simply demand it but complacency is a vice we as humans cant afford to have

Brawl has seemed to have really started off on a bad foot , especially with cocky kids thinking that they have some wieght in whatever they say. Mellee may have created bad blood once in awhile but im hearing -frequently i might add- taht brawl attendies have been acting in childish and creating a schism between themselves and former mellee players who gave brawl a chance.

I expect to see this in Xbox games like Halo or CoD4 because they are FPS's and tension gets high in those games but this is supposed to be a FUN competitive game

BTW - thx for some support IWuvGeno and ICantCount just keep comments like that to ureself

Well I've played all three games so I'm not one of those "Overnight Brawl fanboys" and I like the change. I would have felt ripped off if they didn't change anything. After 7 years it;s obvious that something would change and I'm glad. Just get used to the game and deal with it.

 

[Fletch]

Well i was hoping to get something productive out of your guys but......

I just want to see smash be the same epic game it was since the 64 and apparently ppl arent going to abide by the request i had placed above (not flamming) although i should have added spamming

This wasnt meant to be taken as a some kind of bash on sakurai or the rest of the creators of Brawl but just a simple plea to give those who THINK that smash isnt competitive enough a chance to voice their opinions in a positive way rather than just going to the thread where all you do is complain.

As of right now Brawl has inspired nothing but hateful narrow minded thinking. Overnight fanboys to a game that has some history. (That Move is Key)(Sorry if u really didnt mean anything by it)

Nowhere in my writing did I say we were going to insult sakurai and demand a new copy. All I am saying is that because there are fans who would be willing to pay and play a "Mellee 2.0" that they have incentive to make a new game.

Now unless anyone here really wants Smash to be a shadow of its former self plz post something worthwhile.

While I agree with everything you said, there is virtually no chance we are getting another game any time soon. Yes Brawl was a huge disappointment to anyone that plays games competitively, but the game has sold millions and appeases the casuals to no end, and in the end, those are the ones Nintendo and Sakurai wants to cater to. Sakurai said himself he doesn't want a competitive game, he only wants a random one where anyone can have a chance at winning and he basically succeeded thus far with Brawl. Although this sucks, at least we have Melee to go back to, and when the Brawl tournament scene dies (probably soon), I think Melee will see a rise again.

@ Everyone posting "Epic Fail" pictures and other crap: You do not know what you are talking about.

 

[abgar]

Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Competitive Edition DX

Comming soon this summer

btw, The legend of Zelda Twilight Princces and Mario Galaxy suck too, too uncompetitive.

 

[rageagainst]

Well I've played all three games so I'm not one of those "Overnight Brawl fanboys" and I like the change. I would have felt ripped off if they didn't change anything. After 7 years it;s obvious that something would change and I'm glad. Just get used to the game and deal with it.

they changed it, but not in a good way, the only reason its refreshing is because its new, not because its better remember that. NOTHING IMPORTANT WAS ADDED to brawl between the two games to compensate for the GREAT DEAL of things taken out.

stop saying look to the future not to the pasts statements, yes we DO need to try and find a way to make this game competitive (heavy brawl anyone?) but that doesn't mean we shoudn't be aware of how disturbingly uncompetitive of a game brawl was made out to be.

though a HUGE flaw in the OPs argument is that most people arn't competitive and DON'T view Brawl's downgrade as an actual downgrade, infact they don't see anything too different at all other than a different feel, so I think getting support will be difficult.

 

[PwnyRide]

WOW u guys ... jsut wow

First off everyone (except Xengri) after my last post was basically one of THOSE OVERNIGHT FANBOYS OF BRAWL LOL

second this whole thread was supposed to be for those who think that brawl is messed up needs either

A)Pathches
Or
B)needs a new game to replace it

Now i know that we cant simply demand it but complacency is a vice we as humans cant afford to have

Brawl has seemed to have really started off on a bad foot , especially with cocky kids thinking that they have some wieght in whatever they say. Mellee may have created bad blood once in awhile but im hearing -frequently i might add- taht brawl attendies have been acting in childish and creating a schism between themselves and former mellee players who gave brawl a chance.

I expect to see this in Xbox games like Halo or CoD4 because they are FPS's and tension gets high in those games but this is supposed to be a FUN competitive game

BTW - thx for some support IWuvGeno and ICantCount just keep comments like that to ureself

In reply to pretty much everything you have said so far, you're wrong, people disagree with you, and they're so OVER all the moaning and the *****ing about how you didnt get what you wanted.

Sugarcoat your argument with everything you want, in the end, all it is is a rant about how you want even more. You sound like a spoilt brat, and everyone is just sick of it.

So just suck it up and adapt, or dont play the game at all if you dont accept what it is.

Having a coloured name does not make your oppinion valid.

 

[LouisLeGros]

and I thought the people saying "B rawl will get as competitive as M elee, just give it t ime" were naive

 

[karterfreak]

My god, you are so picky, listen, if you believed that, after 7 **** years, that he was going to make the same game with OMG WAVEDASHING FOXTROT LOL OMG WE NEED AN EXPANSION PACK TO MELEE, KEEP EVERYTHING THE SAME LOL, then you are the one who set yourself up for disapointment, NOT SAKURAI, NOT NINTENDO, NOT BRAWL, BUT YOU.

Nobody expected the game to have the same exploits except for a select few (blind) people. However, we DID expect the game to have viable combos, and not have such a small hitstun. As many people have said before, the small hitstun ruins the competitive play, because now the best strategy is "pull out your tents and firewood, we're going camping!!!" This is a dissapointment to alot of competitive players. Also, please keep in mind that we all wanted brawl to be different, and yet still be an awesome game like 64 and melee.

Also, one thing I seemed to have noticed over my years of gaming is games are getting much easier than they used to be. Why is this you may ask? Either casuals complain about difficulty, or they go to a tournament thinking they are all that, and get destroyed by a competitive player. They don't want to push themselves to get better. I'll use a good example in a moment.

Also one more thing, if sakurai did infact LEAVE all those advanced tournament tactics in, and we had online mode, then about the 99.9% of smash bros players that don't do that will just give up

Minor proof of casuals generally making the gaming industry make games more shallow/easy to become good at to try and appease casuals who want to be good at the game, yet want to put in little effort.

Either way that entire statement is rather stupid, as not many competitive players wanted the same advanced techniques anyway (excluding l-canceling, teching, shorthopping, and fastfalling, but they are all incredibly basic to begin with)

its the same thing as mario kart ds and snaking (they removed snaking from Wii one). Now i know many elitist like to beat "scrubs" and laugh, but nintendo makes money from people being online, and if everyone leaves, they wont get as much money.

This one made me laugh. MK64 and MKDD both had forms of "snaking" (originally called straight stretch mini turbo, or SSMT, but the new MKDS players coined the term snaking) in them, and yet nobody complained. Why's that? The online. Nobody except for the competitive players even cared about trying to "snake", so casuals played their way, and competitives played their own way, and everyone was able to get along because there was no clash between the two groups, thus making the games good. Then MKDS comes along, and people who thought they were good at the game (casuals MOST of the time) were getting destroyed online by people who "snaked" at a competitive level. Now this leaves casuals 3 options.

1. Adapt
2. Stop playing online/Use friend codes
3. Complain/Call it cheating

The first two are casuals that nobody minds, its the third ones that nobody wants to hear, plain and simple. The third ones are also the reason that game companies are making games easier and shallower in a competitive aspect. They are afraid of losing customers and money.

Now before you go off saying thats only 3 MK games that had "snaking", lets add SMK and MKSC. Now these were awesome games because they had a "easy to learn - hard to master" feel to them. Anybody could pick it up, but there was a wide learning curve. They didn't technically have snaking, but they have techniques called NBT and ZZMT (new boosting tech and zig zag mini turbo respectively) that allowed pros to continue getting better and better times, adding depth to the game. Yet again casuals didnt complain because these games weren't online and nobody was getting demolished by a competitive player with these tricks.

Lastly, let me add one more thing as a competitive MK player, you're totally wrong about MKWii. They removed the MKDD and MKDS style snaking, but they didnt remove SSMTing. It's still possible to do mini-turbos on straight roads, we just don't know if the time gain will be bigger than driving straight (It most likely will) sp enjoy your thoughts on MKWii being more casual friendly, as it will still be competitive dominated, we just won't make a big deal about it. The casuals who refuse to adapt and only complain however.... well you get the idea.

Nevertheless, you are right about the big N not making as much money if casuals stop playing, but because of that, they will continue trying to make their games easier and easier, eventually becoming so shallow for comeptitive players that it would be like stepping into a puddle.

Well I've played all three games so I'm not one of those "Overnight Brawl fanboys" and I like the change. I would have felt ripped off if they didn't change anything. After 7 years it;s obvious that something would change and I'm glad. Just get used to the game and deal with it.

I'm fairly sure he's referring to it in the competitive aspect, and the fact that your join date says that you only joined SWF for brawl, and know basically nothing of the Melee metagame and how it was played competitively. However, that could just be a blind assumtion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the OP's statements, I do wish that some improvements would be made to brawl (larger hitstun is all I really ask, I don't even mind about tripping), but realistically, all we can do is play it for what it is. Brawl is Brawl, Melee is Melee. The only thing that makes me sad is that Brawl loses alot of what made Melee so rewarding by having such a small hitstun that combos aren't realistically possible, and removing the risk/reward factor for attacking campers. Still, not much you can do... I do not however agree with the thought of asking for a new game one month after Brawl comes out. Thats just plain greedy.

 

[orintemple]

lol....

This is so ridiculous its unbelievable.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with Brawl unless you are a competitive player. The 3% of total players that the competitive scene makes up is not going to win out against the otehr 97% of players for whom Brawl is better than Melee. A casual player wants:

-more content
-better graphics
-more characters
-more stages

They don't care about advanced techniques and winning tournaments. Sakurai is not going to cater to your *** just because you play the game more than 97% of the total fan base. You only bought the game once, he isn't making anymore money off you after that. And this goes for A LOT of people around these forums: Stop being a naive idiot and thinking that video game production is about more than money!
---
Also, Smash is not anymore of a FUN competitive series than Halo or anything else that seems more serious or adult, the tension and spirit gets just as high at a Smash tourney as it does at a Halo tourney. Fun is an opinion.

 

[abgar]

i guess is a little ridiculous the fact that (some of) they belive their lives will end if they dont get hardcore competitive games made just for them

 

[karterfreak]

Agreed with orintemple, however, I still feel that game companies should be able to make games that are good in both a casual and competitive aspect.

Brawl is FUN, but unless something ground-breaking comes up, it won't be COMPETITIVE due to the current dominant playstyle.

@ Abgar:

Most peoples lives won't in the literal term "end". However the top competitive players make a living off money from tournaments and money matches will be set down a notch money wise.

 

[PwnyRide]

Agreed with orintemple, however, I still feel that game companies should be able to make games that are good in both a casual and competitive aspect.

Brawl is FUN, but unless something ground-breaking comes up, it won't be COMPETITIVE due to the current dominant playstyle.

Sorry, but a game company is not going to waste money to cater for a minority.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Sorry, but a game company is not going to waste money to cater for a minority.

tell that to Blizzard
or Capcom

 

[abgar]

tell that to Blizzard
or Capcom

in these cases, whos the minority?

 

[Tomzo]

Just calling it not competitive isnt getting at the real problem and some people are misunderstanding. Its not about the actual tournament scene or training to play competitively, its that ssb and melee had the ability for growth and advancing your skill. What made it fun with comboing the **** out of someone into a spike of finisher. In brawl thats not possible.

The game gets boring and tedious by the inability to string together moves. Street Fighter 2 had more complex combos than Brawl. Its a **** shame to say but eventually i believe everyone will see the facts, unless something gamebreaking is discovered.

 

[PwnyRide]

in these cases, whos the minority?

Exactly my point.

 

[karterfreak]

PwnyRide, most of the time if a game can't be competitive in at least one way, it isn't exactly the best game anyway (Excluding 1 player and 2 player co-op games obviously, as they are judjed differently than fighting/RTS/FPS player vs. player games). You also have to remember that originally games were much harder to pick up, and that's what I grew up with. Games now are being dumbed down in difficulty because of casuals not wanting to improve (IMHO) and complaining, making gaming companies make less money, which results in them making an easier game so that they can appeal to a wider audience and make more money.

My best example would be to give the average casual player Gradius 3, and see how long they play before they complain about the game being unfair or too hard. Then give them Salamander, which is basically the same thing, but easier. They will most likely enjoy Salamander more because it's easier to pick up

 

[PwnyRide]

PwnyRide, most of the time if a game can't be competitive in at least one way, it isn't exactly the best game anyway (Excluding 1 player and 2 player co-op games obviously, as they are judjed differently than fighting/RTS/FPS player vs. player games). You also have to remember that originally games were much harder to pick up, and that's what I grew up with. Games now are being dumbed down in difficulty because of casuals not wanting to improve (IMHO) and complaining, making gaming companies make less money, which results in them making an easier game so that they can appeal to a wider audience and make more money.

My best example would be to give the average casual player Gradius 3, and see how long they play before they complain about the game being unfair or too hard. Then give them Salamander, which is basically the same thing, but easier. They will most likely enjoy Salamander more because it's easier to pick up

And the minority in this case is? And did Konami cater to this minority?