Respect the Game

[adumbrodeus]

Any different metagame creates a different set of "best players" therefore creating a different truth.

Similar to items removed, MK banned metagame merely has a different truth, but not necessarily an inferior one.

ITT: a person who has never tried any of the hacks he disses

Allied is trolling as usual, don't mind him, he plays Brawl+ pretty consistently and IIRC he had fun with B- that I brought to Pound.

 

[rathy Aro]

So many wrong things in this, I don't even know where to start....

WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT TO KEEP PEOPLE PLAYING

Consider playing something less crappy.

• • •​

Basically, remove the **** you have to remove, then play the rest of the **** game.​

I just quoted the only thing in here that makes any sense. I think in normal cases the brawl community would be dead, but since brawl is the only relatively new game of its type, we don't really have some other game we can just trade it in for (inb4melee).

Firstly, with the counter pick system, stage striking, banning stages, etc we already created a game. From the moment we added rules that aren't in the game we already left the "true" brawl. Secondly, its true that arbitrarily making rules gives us an arbitrarily made game, which is not necessarily what the maker intended, but the fact that we all consent on it is what makes it legitimate. We all generally agree on best out of 3 matches where the first stage is played on a neutral, etc (we show this consent by paying the entry fee) and so we all agree to play the same game and so the one who is best at this game we made has meaning. Thirdly, item should be on. This was your one chance to make a good point in this post and you ruined it with your ironically arbitrary bias against items. Fourthly, double elimination isn't about helping good players who lose by accident. To put it simply, if inui logic worked, we wouldn't need double elimination.

 

[demonictoonlink]

You sigged me! <3 <3 <3

Also...this thread is still good? Jesus don't infract me.

 

[M15t3R E]

Are we disrespecting the game by forming a recommended tournament ruleset? This means seeing the need to ban certain stages, have starters and counterpicks, banning certain tricks like MK's infinite cape, choosing to play without items and setting a time limit to matches, adding codes to tournaments such as inf. replay time and no tripping, and so on. I, for one, see all these things as necessary. And it does change the game... drastically! But no game comes straight out of the box with every option available adding competition to gameplay. And that's why we do it. It's completely necessary.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Great read. A question though that I'd love to discuss with you:

The ultimate goal is the truth, but the ultimate tool to reach that goal is not respect. To reach that truth, respect can be forgone, and at times it must be. In this case: the removal of items. Items randomize wins much too much to ever allow consistent results.

There is a truth to be found about a Brawl that uses items and a truth to be found about a Brawl that doesn't. Does the game not give both these options to us with equal validity towards respecting it? If the game provides either option to be played, why would choosing the non-default one mean disrespect? What change to the game's truth would be made if the default was 'Items Off/None', when, again, both options are available? I would even be willing to say that if there is an inherent difference, 'Items Off/None' is a more genuine [game in OP's title to be respected].



EDIT:

How can you hold the position that you cannot find truth without changing the game while simultaneously contending that in order to find truth we shouldn't change the game?

The first truth you mention is the competitive truth--a truth, according to Meno, which is slightly disrespected by removing some random factors (items). The second truth you mention is the truth of any game as the makers intended it, more specifically, Brawl as Sakurai hands it to you. You may not like what he handed you, but you must admit you disrespect the truth he intended by making changes.

 

[Dekar173]

Hack your wiis and get rid of random tripping- it causes the outcomes of matches to be too random.

 

[swordgard]

Hack your wiis and get rid of random tripping- it causes the outcomes of matches to be too random.

Or start walking more. Its really not that random. You have a prereq.

 

[Laem]

Nothing is true.

Everything is permitted.

Everything is permitted.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I love this post. Good job Meno.


I do have to say though that, regarding items, we aren't "changing the game" or "disrespecting it" because it's an option that is meant to be given to us via the game's design-- just like choosing time, stock, etc. It's not the same as "modding" or "banning" something. That's really the only part I didn't agree with in this article.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

1/10 will never read again. Also, dont say Smash bros as a whole isnt competitive...more like brawl isnt. Melee is VERY competitive.

And also VERY casual w/ there still being ITEMS, CGing, and CAMPING, like Brawl. C:

 

[:mad:]

Knowing Meno, this is probably a subtle troll.

I see "the Game" in the title.

 

[MK26]

​

Also, i like this thread, but the "No Items" part seems counter-intuitive and arbitrary...if you think like this, at the very least something like ISP should be attempted before throwing out items altogether.

 

[Mackorony101]

1/10 will never read again. Also, dont say Smash bros as a whole isnt competitive...more like brawl isnt. Melee is VERY competitive.

Brawl can be as competitive as melee but it just depends on the way you look at it. Brawl is more of a thinking game and melee is more of a technical game but both melee and brawl have a mixture of thinking and technical skill. It makes me a little mad when people say that brawl isn't competitive because the people that say that usually either are focused on melee or combos.

*waits for the haters*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Brawl can be as competitive as melee but it just depends on the way you look at it. Brawl is more of a thinking game and melee is more of a technical game but both melee and brawl have a mixture of thinking and technical skill. It makes me a little mad when people say that brawl isn't competitive because the people that say that usually either are focused on melee or combos.

*waits for the haters*

...


No, Melee is more of a thinking game because it has more depth, Brawl merely is less technical so the thinking becomes more obvious.

The technical aspects are merely entrance barriers to obtaining that depth.

 

[Mackorony101]

...


No, Melee is more of a thinking game because it has more depth, Brawl merely is less technical so the thinking becomes more obvious.

The technical aspects are merely entrance barriers to obtaining that depth.

You are right that brawl is less technical making thinking more obvious but that is what I believe gives it the potential to be competitive. Generally a person focuses less on combos and more on prediction when technical skill isn't as large of a requirement to win. Now-a-days games are based a lot more on the mental capacity of the playing individual than they were before (Since there are those people who constantly play games their entire life and are able to react in a split second and hit many buttons in successive order, at the right time and virtually perfectly)

 

[Browny]

^^ you give brawl far too much credit

Its all about staying safe and camping for 8 minutes

 

[Mackorony101]

^^ you give brawl far too much credit

Its all about staying safe and camping for 8 minutes

Haha, well its probably because I like most of the qualities of the game (Except for tripping but who likes that?). Also I don't like people putting it down just because its different from melee.

 

[fkacyan]

Knowing Meno, this is probably a subtle troll.

I see "the Game" in the title.

I don't know you and will probably never meet you, but you have my undying respect... And hatred, because I hate losing the ****ing game.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Brawl can be as competitive as melee but it just depends on the way you look at it. Brawl is more of a thinking game and melee is more of a technical game but both melee and brawl have a mixture of thinking and technical skill. It makes me a little mad when people say that brawl isn't competitive because the people that say that usually either are focused on melee or combos.

*waits for the haters*

This "brawl hater" plays brawl btw. Melee>brawl because there are more options, more technical and is just...better .

 

[Mackorony101]

This "brawl hater" plays brawl btw. Melee>brawl because there are more options, more technical and is just...better .

I didn't really specify who the "haters" are but whatever.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yeah,...I kinda TL;DR'd ur post.

 

[Dekar173]

Or start walking more. Its really not that random. You have a prereq.

Walking =/= Dashing

They both have their uses, but dashing is faster and therefore allows for punishes when otherwise you might not get it through walking alone.

A random factor shouldn't inhibit a character's movement

 

[MK26]

I don't know you and will probably never meet you, but you have my undying respect... And hatred, because I hate losing the ****ing game.

ITT: a person who doesn't read XKCD and has not reached the end of the thread yet did not read past the post he quoted...

 

[Eddie G]

Ehh...I'm all for philosophical introductions but you might want to consider the fact that over-complicating your stance for the general public to read will get an inevitable mish-mash of different feedback. Can't really place the blame on anyone for that.

And I'm not calling anyone stupid either. People have different levels of comprehension. It's a fact of life I'm afraid.

 

[link2702]

the truth is....

brawl sux

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the truth is....

I sux

Fix'd
10elitistscrub

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

USA sucks, Europe is better.

That's why we ***** you at Genesis.

OH SNAP!

 

[AvaricePanda]

That's why we ***** you at Genesis.

OH SNAP!

By "we ***** you" you mean, "Mango, in Grand Finals, beat one of two EU representatives, Armada, who beat Mango in Winners Finals, who both beat pretty much everyone."

Yeah.

10loldonttakethistooseriously

 

[Eddie G]

That's why we ***** you at Genesis.

OH SNAP!

Give credit where it's due. Armada exceeded everyone's expectations who initially underestimated him. He beat pretty much the best of the best (M2K, Shiz, etc.), knocked Mango into losers, and got 2nd. How exactly is that considered "****" in any sense of the word?

Oh, I forgot, you ate your faulty logic wheaties for breakfast this morning.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

The ultimate truth to Brawl is that Barwl sux.

edit: nevermind I sux.

 

[Judo777]

Give credit where it's due. Armada exceeded everyone's expectations who initially underestimated him. He beat pretty much the best of the best (M2K, Shiz, etc.), knocked Mango into losers, and got 2nd. How exactly is that considered "****" in any sense of the word?

Oh, I forgot, you ate your faulty logic wheaties for breakfast this morning.

Hey a wins a win. Also where are those euro brawlers at?

 

[Eddie G]

Hey a wins a win. Also where are those euro brawlers at?

Win =/= ****. There's a difference, just sayin.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT TO KEEP PEOPLE PLAYING

Consider playing something less crappy.

• • •​

Basically, remove the **** you have to remove, then play the rest of the **** game.​

this right here. I paid for my brawl disc with the intent that it was made by professionals. Professional artists, programmers, and everyone in between that were being paid to make the game from the ground up. It is a work of art, it is a testament to their labors. The problem that exists is that people cant seem to get past melees competitive edge. So to compensate for what they didnt get, they take it into their own hands. These people arent getting paid to professionally make or remake brawl, and from my POV once a piece of work is finished thats it. Its done, any further modifications, you risk ruin it and you lose what you were working for altogether. Hacked versions of the game are 'what ifs', they're after thoughts. There is no truth in any hacked brawl. Its just a horribly glorified failed attempt at saying, 'this is what it should of been'.

I don't know you and will probably never meet you, but you have my undying respect... And hatred, because I hate losing the ****ing game.

hey its only a game right, which is why people take illegal stimulates in order to win the game and look super awesome

 

[mdmfromdaridge]

This is absolutely ridiculous. There is no reason to apply such a poorly thought out philosophical mindset to a video game. That being said, if you want the truth behind ''Vbrawl'' then it is this.

"I am Vanilla Brawl. Half of my cast is overpowered, whilst the other half is sorely underdeveloped. If you want to be the best, pick one of the top 5 characters. If you want to lose, play anyone else. Also there is the addition of random tripping, that way there is always a level of uncertainty in your actions, and so that any lead can be effectively gotten rid of, and any chance of a comeback can be snuffed in one stupid action.''

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[deepseadiva]

lol@Masky

I'm glad you're one of the cool people.

Ehh...I'm all for philosophical introductions but you might want to consider the fact that over-complicating your stance for the general public to read will get an inevitable mish-mash of different feedback. Can't really place the blame on anyone for that.

And I'm not calling anyone stupid either. People have different levels of comprehension. It's a fact of life I'm afraid.

Yea, I'm not really one to pander to the masses. For this article, I went with a very "powerful and controversial" introduction, and decided to put the explanation more into the deeper texts. People don't read - or if they attempt to, it's apparently with a very angry predetermined mindset.

It's funny reading all these replies telling me I'm completely wrong on things I don't even take a stance against though.

The problem with this ideology as many people have already pointed out (both in this thread and others) is that you are arbitrarily choosing a line where things on one side of the line can be changed because they are TOO detrimental to competitive play and things on the other side can't be changed. What is the exact standard and reasoning for that standard of which something is too detrimental?

I'm not making any lines actually, I'm simply defining a goal. The principles I outline should be used when creating those lines, but they should be applied within their individual context (e.g. infinites, planking, Meta Knight, etc.).

The problem with the Smash community is that there's this MASSIVE misconception that creating a competitive rule-set is somehow subjective. It's not: it's incredibly objective.

That's what my entire OP proves.

There is a truth to be found about a Brawl that uses items and a truth to be found about a Brawl that doesn't. Does the game not give both these options to us with equal validity towards respecting it? If the game provides either option to be played, why would choosing the non-default one mean disrespect? What change to the game's truth would be made if the default was 'Items Off/None', when, again, both options are available? I would even be willing to say that if there is an inherent difference, 'Items Off/None' is a more genuine [game in OP's title to be respected].

Very nice catch!

The default and/or the intent of the creators play absolutely no role in determining what is respecting the game. It's merely semantics to get my point across.

I'd also like to make clear that while "disrespect" carries a negative connotation, it does not necessarily mean it's a bad thing.

Also, i like this thread, but the "No Items" part seems counter-intuitive and arbitrary...if you think like this, at the very least something like ISP should be attempted before throwing out items altogether.

I'm highlighting this reply since it's the only one I can't fully answer. Applying ISP to this logic comes up with something different than the SBR-supported ruleset we currently have, which very much confuses me. I'm still trying to rationalize it.

The ultimate truth to Brawl is that Barwl sux.

Probable.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Meno, you are going to make me bring out a dictionary to make sure I get all of these words defined correctly and in the right context instead of vague recollections of my past experiences with the terms.

 

[deepseadiva]

No, don't do that!

That'll only end up removing my intimidating and impenetrable fog of an OP!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No, don't do that!

That'll only end up removing my intimidating and impenetrable fog of an OP!

Too late. I have read it and thought about it. And I think I understand the reasoning behind it. Really, it's nothing new.

THIS MEANS ITEMS-ON

That subject is sort of a given it seems. Of course we have to enact some restrants on the game in order to achieve truth. That is just the way Smash is in general.

WE AS A COMMUNITY DECIDE WHAT THE GAME IS

Nice topic you covered. I have to point out one thing. No matter what you do, the truth will never be found. It is simple as that. As you mentioned, there are still flaws in the system. And there will be flaws in any system. I think it would be better to say that competition is not to find the truth, but rather to gauge each other's skills in a friendly manner. My thoughts on competition are more along the lines of what the olympics represent. The intent of the olympics is not to determine who is best. It is to have unity in a manner that tries to promote who is superior skill.

Although, the system the olympics has is fairly fine tuned. It's based on amateur competition.

Basically, remove the **** you have to remove, then play the rest of the **** game.

Short simply and to the point lol That is what people have been striving for, for ages now. Again, nothing in this OP is anything new to comprehend. It's just interesting writing written in a way to obsecure reasoning and promote simply ideas.

 

[Mackorony101]

hey its only a game right, which is why people take illegal stimulates in order to win the game and look super awesome

That made me laugh. This is my new sig, haha.