Results of SRT

[Tesh]

No, they would never ban MK at Apex.

 

[Delta-cod]

No.

He brings an example that will NEVER be reality, therefore kinda useless to discuss about.

But we were discussing something that COULD be reality (MK being banned at APEX and Japanese players dont come)

Are you actually...

The example is an overstatement to demonstrate the potential absurdity of catering our rulesets to international players. It has nothing to do with reality. The same example could be made with nearly any other universal rule implemented in Japan that isn't implemented here.

Imagine a world where Japan actually did use Items for standard tournament play. Would we start using items to cater to the Japanese so they'll come to Apex? Or do we take the alternative, which in your words, would be: "Items being banned at Apex and Japanese players dont come".

Same thing with MK.

Like, it wasn't hard to see.

 

[Uncle]

The question in my previous post was asked because it seems that the anti-ban side's biggest weapon is the "Japanese factor" right now. They want US players to be ready to deal with Japan's finest, and they want Japan to come over again in the first place. Are those good reasons to keep MK legal? That's not the easiest question to answer..........

If the anti-ban side has a more prominent reason for keeping MK legal than what I just talked about, then please correct me, by all means.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK not being broken alone is good enough an argument to not ban him, isn't it

 

[Kel]

He took 4/8 at the most stacked tournament in the world, with rules that are supposed to be the best at nerfing MK (making him playing on FD against ICs, making it illegal to fly under a stage at a certain time, making you lose if you grab the edge too many times, etc.), with the best Ice climbers and Olimars in the world (known to beat MK), with many of the MKs taking each other out in bracket to allow others characters to pass.

The character is too good. You want him to be like Master Hand and just wreck everyone's **** in order to ban him. We look at data gathered over 4 years and say "why is this guy still here?" you say "cuz."

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not only is this the wrong thread for this but your arguments are pretty weak to begin with. 4/8 isn't a problematic ratio for the best character in the game and doesn't imply that he's broken in the slightest, especially if you take the sheer number of MK players overall into account. If that is an actual problem then it should be equally concerning that IC took 2/6 despite only 4 IC players making the bracket at all [which is probably 75%+ of the overall IC attendance at this tourney in the first place].

You say that MK players were mainly taken out by other MK players and yet M2K and Kakera [2 of those 4 top 8 MKs] were eliminated by a Falco, Otori was eliminated by an IC player and the only set Rain lost at this was a non-MK as well. All of those MKs were beaten by a non-MK at this tourney at one point. Moreover, if you look at all the non-MKs in top 8 you'll notice that all of them except Vinnie were eliminated by non-MK too: Mikeneko by Kyuubi and Masha / Kyuubi by Vinnie - only Vinnie was eliminated by Rain. So not only did all the MK players in the top 8 lose to a non-MK but so did the other non-MKs as well. Looks like the MK players were actually *fortunate* to play against other MKs in winners at this because it allowed them to avoid all those non-MKs that eliminated them.

tl;dr "cuz"

 

[sneakytako]

M2K didn't lose to falco, he lost to scrooging rule.

And of course most of them weren't elminated by MK, because most of the MK's were in winners.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And this is why pro-ban isn't usually being taken serious.

If you want MK banned you should rather let other people argue.

 

[sneakytako]

Ur arguement is stupid.

Vinne knocked people out in losers. Thus MK isn't broken.

Ok Vinne can beat MK's in losers. Good ****. It still doesn't change the fact that MK won over 2/3 the money.

Also last time I checked Mikeneko was a marth main, IDK if he switched to MK recently.

How many of the top 8 MKs lost to non MK that wasn't vinne or scrooging rule?

 

[clowsui]

1: Rain
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Wanapero
Defeated Sakasaka
Defeated Mikeneko
Defeated quikSilver
Defeated Vinnie
Defeated Otori
Lost to Vinnie

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated Vinnie

Overall: 1/???[/COLLAPSE]
Lost to Vinnie

2: Vinnie
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated FILIP
Defeated Brood
Defeated Yui
Defeated Daiki
Lost to RAIN

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated 9B
Defeated Masha
Defeated Otori
Defeated RAIN
Lost to RAIN

Overall: 2/???[/COLLAPSE]
actualy is Viny

3: Otori/おおとり

[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Sigma
Defeated Isotaku
Defeated Mew2King
Defeated 9B
Defeated Kakera
Lost to RAIN

Loser's Bracket:
Lost to Vinnie

Overall: 3/???[/COLLAPSE]
Lost to Vinnie

4: Masha/ましゃ
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Runpa
Defeated Mao
Lost to Havok

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated Sakasaka
Defeated Earth
Defeated Quiksilver
Defeated Mew2King*
Defeated Kakera
Lost to Vinnie

*M2K lost game 1 due to scrooging rule

Overall: 4/???
[/COLLAPSE]
5: 9B
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Defeated Gengar
Defeated SOL
Defeated Kuroobi
Defeated Nietono
Lost to Otori

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated Shogun
Defeated Mikeneko
Lost to Vinnie

Overall: 5/???[/COLLAPSE]

5: Kakera/かけら
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Tige
Defeated Moyomoto
Defeated Earth
Defeated Havok
Lost to Otori

Loser's Bracket:
Lost to Masha

Overall: 5/???
[/COLLAPSE]
Lost to non-MK in loser's

7: Mikeneko/みけねこ
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Nyagato
Defeated Abadango
Lost to RAIN

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated Dio
Defeated Suinoko
Defeated Havok
Lost to 9B

Overall: 7/???[/COLLAPSE]

7: Mew2king
[COLLAPSE="W/L"]Winner's Bracket:
Bye
Defeated Frea
Defeated DAMU
Lost to Otori

Loser's Bracket:
Defeated Maguro
Defeated Nietono
Defeated Daiki
Lost to Masha

Overall: 7/???[/COLLAPSE]
Lost to scrooging rule

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This whole talk of M2K losing to scrooging rule is borderline sladerous.

 

[Overswarm]

This whole talk of M2K losing to scrooging rule is borderline sladerous.

Why? The guy apparently sucked and needed a special rule to beat MK. Whatever, happens all the time.

 

[xDD-Master]

Are you actually...

The example is an overstatement to demonstrate the potential absurdity of catering our rulesets to international players. It has nothing to do with reality. The same example could be made with nearly any other universal rule implemented in Japan that isn't implemented here.

Imagine a world where Japan actually did use Items for standard tournament play. Would we start using items to cater to the Japanese so they'll come to Apex? Or do we take the alternative, which in your words, would be: "Items being banned at Apex and Japanese players dont come".

Same thing with MK.

Like, it wasn't hard to see.

But APEX didnt start playing MK because of Japan.
They just kept him allowed, like it nearly always has been for almost 4 years now.

They never changed the ruleset to please the Japanese, they just kept the old ruleset, because the whole world is more used MK being legal than MK being banned, and therefore the competition is better, because more International players come.
Pro-Ban (US Americans mostly) wants to change the ruleset because of themselves, the japanese never suggested a ruleset change, so they would come. They also came to Genesis II where stupid stages like RC and BS were allowed, lol.

The example would fit better when you ask, if APEX should keep playing without Items, in the unrealistic case of No-Items being the new standard ruleset in the US.
The answer should still be NO, because APEX has the goal to be an international event (The biggest), therefore the ruleset must please everyone.

>> Conclusion: This example doesnt fit well for multiple reasons and MK should stay legal at APEX.

 

[Vinnie]

Btw, the main rules for singles

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise

RPS for 1-2-1 strikes for game 1. 1 Ban per person.

 

[Kel]

^Thanks, Vinnie. Was FD bannable?

 

[CYVE]

Btw, the main rules for singles

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise

RPS for 1-2-1 strikes for game 1. 1 Ban per person.

Best ruleset!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why does anyone even argue about MK being banned anymore?

Gamers, especially top players and long-time competitive gamers, are trained to think that anything they can't handle is their own fault and think they just need to try harder. They will obviously project that mentality onto this issue. It's an ideology has to be completely ironclad or it loses its power.

Anti-ban's primary argument for the entirety of this discussion has been the apparently infinite human ability to improve and the unknown eventualities associated with this phenomenon. The entire anti-ban position hinges on several very compelling "what ifs" and fear of a perceived scrub label. There's no reason to believe they'll ever back down from that no matter how ludicrous it is. There's no reason to argue with people that can't be reasoned with. You will rarely convince someone who is anti-ban that anything, let alone a very popular character, is too good. It goes against their religion.

I gave up long ago, I suggest everyone else do the same. Brawl's life has however long it takes before Smash 4 comes out left anyway.

 

[Vinnie]

^Thanks, Vinnie. Was FD bannable?

Yes. These were the only 5 stages. They're all classified as neutrals, I guess. And you can ban any of the stages. Including FD. I liked this ruleset A LOT.

 

[Marcbri]

Played @ a tourney with japanese ruleset some time ago and didn't like the fact you couldn't ban some stages, glad to know they changed it/it wasn't like that

 

[Keitaro]

This whole talk of M2K losing to scrooging rule is borderline sladerous.

Agreed.

10agrees

 

[Alphicans]

This whole talk of M2K losing to scrooging rule is borderline sladerous.

Well he did lose game 1 to the scrooging rule then gave up game 2. I'd say it's 50/50, one half scrooging one half him having a bad mentality. Saying M2K lost to a scrooging rule does NOT mean masha couldn't have won, so stop acting like that's what people are saying.

 

[Apasher]

Why does anyone even argue about MK being banned anymore?

Gamers, especially top players and long-time competitive gamers, are trained to think that anything they can't handle is their own fault and think they just need to try harder. They will obviously project that mentality onto this issue. It's an ideology has to be completely ironclad or it loses its power.

Anti-ban's primary argument for the entirety of this discussion has been the apparently infinite human ability to improve and the unknown eventualities associated with this phenomenon. The entire anti-ban position hinges on several very compelling "what ifs" and fear of a perceived scrub label. There's no reason to believe they'll ever back down from that no matter how ludicrous it is. There's no reason to argue with people that can't be reasoned with. You will rarely convince someone who is anti-ban that anything, let alone a very popular character, is too good. It goes against their religion.

I gave up long ago, I suggest everyone else do the same. Brawl's life has however long it takes before Smash 4 comes out left anyway.

Probably the only good post I have read in this entire thread.

 

[Delta-cod]

But APEX didnt start playing MK because of Japan.
They just kept him allowed, like it nearly always has been for almost 4 years now.

They never changed the ruleset to please the Japanese, they just kept the old ruleset, because the whole world is more used MK being legal than MK being banned, and therefore the competition is better, because more International players come.
Pro-Ban (US Americans mostly) wants to change the ruleset because of themselves, the japanese never suggested a ruleset change, so they would come. They also came to Genesis II where stupid stages like RC and BS were allowed, lol.

The example would fit better when you ask, if APEX should keep playing without Items, in the unrealistic case of No-Items being the new standard ruleset in the US.
The answer should still be NO, because APEX has the goal to be an international event (The biggest), therefore the ruleset must please everyone.

>> Conclusion: This example doesnt fit well for multiple reasons and MK should stay legal at APEX.

Yes, but the ban was actually supposed to take large effect after Apex, but due to Japan's performance, people thought we should adapt to their rules so we could continue to compete with them.

We're still catering our ruleset to players we only see like, once a year.

This is going to be my last post on the matter with you.

 

[| Big D |]

The character is too good. You want him to be like Master Hand and just wreck everyone's **** in order to ban him.

I'd just like to point out that if Master Hand was legal in tournament play, he would be the worst character in the game, regardless whether he has HP or percentage.

The tier list is suppose to represent characters and their abilities used on a national/international scale. The predictability of Master Hands moves not to mention how telegraphed they are, means that anyone who is a tournament threat will have mastered how to avoid his moves. Due to the lack of skill gap, and Master Hand's severe lack of options, this means that there won't be any Master Hand players placing after a month of development to the new meta game.

This means that the standard will be able to time out any Master Hand Player. There are many, many stalling tactics that can be used, and Master Hand's lack of quick moves, not to mention his inability to punish rolls will only hurt and frustrate any Master Hand players to a point of dropping the character.

Master Hand players may be a threat at a local level, but not a regional/national/international level.

In other words everyone > Master Hand

 

[Overswarm]

I'd just like to point out that if Master Hand was legal in tournament play, he would be the worst character in the game, regardless whether he has HP or percentage.

The tier list is suppose to represent characters and their abilities used on a national/international scale. The predictability of Master Hands moves not to mention how telegraphed they are, means that anyone who is a tournament threat will have mastered how to avoid his moves. Due to the lack of skill gap, and Master Hand's severe lack of options, this means that there won't be any Master Hand players placing after a month of development to the new meta game.

This means that the standard will be able to time out any Master Hand Player. There are many, many stalling tactics that can be used, and Master Hand's lack of quick moves, not to mention his inability to punish rolls will only hurt and frustrate any Master Hand players to a point of dropping the character.

Master Hand players may be a threat at a local level, but not a regional/national/international level.

In other words everyone > Master Hand

I demand a master hand tournament to back this up.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Meta knight, more like metagame knight

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

HDR Akuma was banned because he was still broken. The developer that balanced him came out and said that the changes he made to Akuma weren't nearly enough and didn't end up doing what was intended to Akuma's playstyle to make him balanced.
Neither Akuma is comparable to MK, who has even MUs and can be outplayed.

Strong Bad, do you have a source for that? I do have a source for Sirlin regarding HDR Akuma.

Conclusion
Akuma has a solid ground game with fireballs that stand up to Ryu’s, juggling special moves, an incredibly versatile air fireball, and a tricky super. He does take more damage than any other character, but not by a large margin. We finally have a 17th character.

--Sirlin

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-akuma.html

 

[TeeVee]

mk has won every single national (that has had a us player in attendance) since mlg dallas in 2010, and its not even only 1 or 2 mks winning every one.

 

[Flayl]

What was the national DEHF won?

 

[TeeVee]

apex 2010, prior to mlg

 

[Flayl]

Okay thanks, I really had forgotten for anyone wondering

 

[Overswarm]

mk has won every single national (that has had a us player in attendance) since mlg dallas in 2010, and its not even only 1 or 2 mks winning every one.

"Just get better"

 

[Apasher]

Why do you people let a bad character like MK win nationals and take all of your money for 2 years?

 

[Overswarm]

"Oh, MK isn't bad. He's the best character. He's just not TOO good. Good enough to win absolutely everything important for two years, take a chunk of money that eclipses the next five characters in their entirety combined, and have a "top players" list for that character that dwarfs all the others, but that's still not TOO good. I mean, he COULD lose. He just doesn't."

 

[Apasher]

He doesn't lose because you're all bad at this game.

 

[Kel]

Shut up, Overswarm! ANti is good! so there!

 

[SoulPech]

He doesn't lose because you're all bad at this game.

Yup. Especially, when you use and get beat by

:3

 

[Apasher]

Yup. Especially, when you use and get beat by

:3

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Strong Bad, do you have a source for that? I do have a source for Sirlin regarding HDR Akuma.



http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-akuma.html

The Sirlin article you linked to was made prior to HDR's release, and was primarily made as a way of explaining the changes (he has a blogpost for each of the entire cast, iirc). I DO remember the quote Strong Bad is talking about (Sirling admitting essentially that he "didn't do enough"), but I'm not entirely sure where to find it myself.

 

[Tesh]

mk has won every single national (that has had a us player in attendance) since mlg dallas in 2010, and its not even only 1 or 2 mks winning every one.

WHOBO 4. SRBT (week before SRT).