RETRIBUTION - October 20th - Cincinnati, OH - MK Banned Regional

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Dear Chi,

**** the haters. Stay sexy.

- Tech_Chase


____________________________________

I have a second letter:

Dear Spec,

Stewy *****. Stay salty.

- Tech_Chase

 

[Vinylic.]

I said anyone who mains yoshi isn't quite human... I thought this was common knowledge? It was a dumb joke, don't read too much into it lol.

Might as well say anyone who mains Ganon is inhumanly talented and evil.

Btw, would like to ditto more.

 

[KassandraNova]

Chi, just give anyone who was upset a BJ. It'll make it all better.

You know what to do.

 

[Judo777]

Yes, as do Castle Siege, PS2, Rainbow Cruise, Smashville, and Frigate, but none to the same degree and one that are player controlled.

PS1 cycles through the same set of transformations regardless, and resets to a neutral position in between each. It does slow gameplay, but it doesn't slow gameplay on my terms. I can go and break the orbs on Brinstar and then camp one side or the other. Many characters have to hard commit to bridge that gap and you can punish that hard if they try it, so they're forced to wait for the stage to reform where I can simply retreat to the ledge, plank it out for a half second, break it again, and retreat to the side you are not on.

Again, I am not in favor of banning Brinstar, but I am in favor of informing people.

But taking time out of the fight to set up the map was one of the main discrediting factors that led to banning green greens. The walls were a large factor on that stage but it was said through proper set up of the blocks you could remove the walls and keep them from reappearing, the issue is that it is not practical to take time out of the match to set up the map so you can fight.

I realize Brinstar is not quite the same difficulty but its still not easy for someone to just go and safely destroy the bubbles.

And PS1 slows the game a lot more than Brinstar, those are like 30 second phases that no one approaches during and the stage change cannot even be a tempted to stop. PS1 is one of the most frequent time out stages because of this (often times not the original intent of the player).

@ Delux what do you mean it has hitboxes that can't be predicted to a unit precision? Like does the acid not hit people sometimes? I know the acid can never be blocked.

 

[clowsui]

You know what to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLp9vKnb8c0

 

[Carls493]

Why did it have to be the only girl in that pool to suffer such unfairness with that ratio issue? Hopefully this doesn't happen again. Same with that whole Spec vs. Stewy issue I witnessed...

As well as my Double Sheik luck. Something like that will surely not happen to me again so easily, but my new plan is to make sure to pick up one of my secondaries for just fighting Sheik. I had slightly better luck against Pikachu's chaingrab, which is why I was able to beat a couple or so.

It's better safe than sorry.

 

[Overswarm]

Sorry that you feel that way, and I understand the logic behind your position.

I'll gladly refund your entry.


1. Banned Brinstar on logic I don't even agree with, due to popular opinioin
2. Screwed Kassandra out of making it to bracket
3. Let a coaching issue bottleneck me
3a. Made several changes to decision during resolution of coaching issue
4. Did not pay attention to bracket while coaching issue was happening
5. Did not ever run my own bracket, really
6. Could not finish the tournament on time despite having 20 setups

There won't be another one. Not for a long time.

Everyone makes mistakes Chi. I personally make very few anymore when running a tournament, as does Keist, as does AZ, as does many other TOs. This is not because we are naturally gifted nor is it because we all do things the same way. It is because we know how to run a tournament and we have practiced it, refined it, and understand where our decisions come from.

The one thing we, and every other good TO, have in common is that we have experience and help and built a good foundation of knowledge.

The best advice anyone can give you is "don't make the same mistakes twice", "get more setups", and "be consistent", but I'm going to give you a piece of advice that is worth more than all of those combined.

Don't make the same mistakes that other people make.

1 & 2 on your list are solely because you looked at something that wasn't broken and for whatever reason said "this should be fixed" and broke it. Popular opinion is never a reason to do anything from an official standpoint because it changes frequently and doesn't necessarily create the best experience.

3/3a are because you didn't know the answer in advance. Your first response should be immediate and final because you should already know the answer. Did someone coach during the match when they weren't supposed to? Feel free to DQ 'em if that's the rule; feel no remorse. If you're a good TO and have consistent and available rules, they should know them.

By the way, never simply link to the Unity ruleset and say "here's what we're doing" if you plan on making any changes whatsoever. Then it isn't the unity ruleset. Just copy/paste and edit.

4, 5, & 6 are a result of either you putting other things before the tournament and not having enough help to make up for the slack, amongst the possibility of 3/3a.

We used to joke about "the TO curse", and how the TO never did well at their own events because they never got to practice and had to rush all their matches and get interrupted all the time. Every TO also always had someone that could help them if they thought they needed it, and they knew who to trust.

What help did you have? Was it good enough? I know Hilt means well and I've seen him do a great job before, but did you trust him to take over things or did you require your input on any discussions? If you say "Hilt, help me out" and then when a dispute comes up wouldn't want him to handle it on his own, you either need to get on the same page, find different help, or relax and let your help take care of it.

There's a ton of things that can happen in a tournament that can hurt time, and with large numbers like this of out-of-state people you have an even higher tendency for problems because they rarely respect you as much. I've seen the issues you listed happen on more than one occasion by other TOs, even during just the Brawl scene. Just learn from those mistakes and if you stumble upon a new one don't make that one again.

You got a large amount of setups and players in attendance; that in itself is a good thing to do and difficult to accomplish.

Next time the public opinion comes up in a discussion, ignore it and look at your predecessors and learn from what they've done. Some people want Brinstar banned. I think it's stupid and a hallmark of a scrub, and there's no statistical evidence showing it is bad. I have reasons behind my stance and if someone says "ban brinstar" I say "no" without hesitation. If they wanted it banned, they can prove it on my terms. Is it the same with you? You either ban it or you don't, but in the end it comes down to your mentality. If public request is determining your choices, you're going to get pushed around and you'll find people coming up to your table and yelling at you with regularity because they believe that you'll compromise in some way that will help them. Don't give 'em that option and make what you want and what you do clear in your own head, and the rest is just basic math.

@ Delux what do you mean it has hitboxes that can't be predicted to a unit precision? Like does the acid not hit people sometimes? I know the acid can never be blocked.

He's incorrect, but I believe he's referring to the fact that when a hitbox connects to a hurtbox the hitbox actually expands slightly. It did it in Melee too, if I recall, but not sure. So when you hit the bubbles / pillar, your attack can be both delayed and expanded. You can easily time this and space it properly; while I'm not sure on the exact specifications of how the hitbox expands and is delayed, with a small amount of practice you can anticipate the results of your attack. Kel and I used to use it for MK's f-smash all the time, and I know i've seen Ally wreck faces with a Snake f-smash there as well against people who do not know any better.

 

[stewyian]

Stewy's shoutouts

Great tourney Chi I definately would go to another you are a great TO

Steep: its alright man i really am not worried about it I look forward to the next time we get to play

Hilt: you are a really cool person and am glad I could meet you, good job handling the situation I caused

Michigan: we can place better than this come on guys

LOE1: u mad

Roller: I wont let you down next time coach

Ksev: sorry you got dragged into everything and thanks for driving

Zeton: sorry your match got held up, and thanks for the advice it helped sooooo much I look forward to playing you again in the future

Zinoto: good stuff reppin' Michigan

Spec:

Everyone else I didnt get to play, be thankfull you didn't play me all I do is cause salt

 

[DeLux]

No, the acid interacts with players by having a hitbox. A hitbox connects to an player's hurtbox giving them damage and knockback. You can't predict to a frame (unless you're able to tell me at what frame the acid rises and lowers on the 8 minute cycle much like you can with the klap trap on jungle japes or the platforms appearing on RC) and to an ingame unit where the acid will be. Hitboxes that alter percent and give knockback alter the scoreboard, thus having legal ramifications (not like "oh we should ban brinstar or metaknight" legal ramifications, like "this venture will be shut down by the state gaming commission because of the executive discretionary area on defining video gaming and gambling")

Pretty simple actually

But let's keep this about Retribution. If you want to debate Brinstar, there's a forum for that

 

[yoshq]

I just noticed YoshQ took out both Nova Scotians...and they were all in the same car on Friday.

We weren't in the same car, we just hung out. But yes, I did. It was a successful attempt to get Zhao to shake some salt onto my Facebook wall.

seems like the actual playing of brawl itself here wasn't fun for anyone

I had an incredible amount of fun at this tournament. I was in a hopelessly good mood the whole time. It was so fun playing all the midtiers and I had no problem with the organization.

I know how much work you out into it and what a personal stake you had in the success of this tournament. You're beautiful and I love you. But you have to learn to allow only as much negative emotion/stress as will help you succeed in the future regarding your mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes and no one expected the tournament to be perfect and all the Tvs rimmed in chrome and Angels announcing all the matches. Just know what you could have done and do your best to do it in the future. No need to stress. Everyone had fun, even if 3 people had a different degree of fun. Oh, and, it's not your responsibility to maintain everyone's level of fun. Fun is subjective, just like all other emotions. Don't put it upon yourself. We love you. Keep up the good work.

 

[Seagull Joe]

4: Seagull Joe ($70) - nice 4th. it was good seeing you again. your payout's wrong though, they forgot the change you scavenged from all over the venue.

Best way to profit at an arcade!!!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was so happy to see a Point Blank 2 machine, but sad to see that the guns were off by a fair amount.

Still played the hell out of it. Wish I had created a party for D&D: Tower of Doom or TMNT, though.

 

[Overswarm]

I was so happy to see a Point Blank 2 machine, but sad to see that the guns were off by a fair amount.

Still played the hell out of it. Wish I had created a party for D&D: Tower of Doom or TMNT, though.

Next time, D&D. I call warrior.

Sneaky, Stephanie, and I beat Battletoads.

(unless you're able to tell me at what frame the acid rises and lowers on the 8 minute cycle much like you can with the klap trap on jungle japes or the platforms appearing on RC)

Oh, yeah you can. Watch the background; the timing doesn't occur at the same time but it gives you ample warning with the background animations (chozo moving, bulbous thing in the background swelling/swinging, etc.).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sneaky, Stephanie, and I beat Battletoads.

I caught the end where you were shooting at Robo-Manus, yeah. The three of you didn't seem especially enthused, heh.

 

[Judo777]

No, the acid interacts with players by having a hitbox. A hitbox connects to an player's hurtbox giving them damage and knockback. You can't predict to a frame (unless you're able to tell me at what frame the acid rises and lowers on the 8 minute cycle much like you can with the klap trap on jungle japes or the platforms appearing on RC) and to an ingame unit where the acid will be. Hitboxes that alter percent and give knockback alter the scoreboard, thus having legal ramifications (not like "oh we should ban brinstar or metaknight" legal ramifications, like "this venture will be shut down by the state gaming commission because of the executive discretionary area on defining video gaming and gambling")

Pretty simple actually

But let's keep this about Retribution. If you want to debate Brinstar, there's a forum for that

Yea I'm pretty sure Halberds stuff doesn't always happen on an exact frame from the start of the match either. Like i dont think the hazards are even on a schedule much less which of the 3 you will get.

Also both the balloon on smash ville, and the shyguys on yoshi can affect entire matches and are completely random and in cases can't be seen at all.

S2 also always complains about smashvilles platform not starting on his side.

 

[Delta-cod]

I said anyone who mains yoshi isn't quite human... I thought this was common knowledge? It was a dumb joke, don't read too much into it lol.

I just didn't know about the Yoshi mains not being human bit. It's no biggy, I was just confused.

 

[since]

I didn't play near enough friendlies there.

Shoutouts
to Shugo/YoshQ/Fragger/Hoboz for awesome pools matches
to Nicole/Pink Fresh for ****** me in bracket
to Roller for knowing how to hadoken when I don't
to the few people I played outside of tournament

Tournament was awesome, one of the best ones I've been to that wasn't a national.

Also I owe Kenny a dollar. :<

Keep brinstar banned forever.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Chi, stop overreacting. W/L having priority over head to head is how things should be done. A player's performance in the overall pool has a greater influence towards you getting out than the individual people that you beat. Head to Head is the first tie breaker, while set wins and game wins are the primary qualifications for making it into bracket. It's the reason set wins takes priority over head to head as well. You did not screw anyone out of pools.

I'm a strong believer in W/L ratio taking priority. Not because of popular opinion, but because it contains more valid logic than head to head and makes the most sense when you actually take a moment to think about it.

Kassandra, I apologize that you feel you were screwed out of the situation because of it all. But I have made it a point to use this method at each of my events, ever since I noticed it would create an issue and debate if unspecified. That said, I'll continue to use the method at any event that pools are a part of that I run. It'll be a shame if you aren't present because of this, but that isn't enough to make me change the rule or refund money to those that feel they were cheated. Whether or not Chi does the latter is on him.

That said, you're my buddy and I hope I! haven't offended you in any way. I also hope that your mind changes and you do come to future tournaments I'm a part of.

 

[DeLux]

1: Reflex - Your Wario is godly. Sad we didn't meet in bracket though because I felt like I did some hw for both your characters.
2: Shugo - Glad I didn't have to play you, would have been embarrassing to lose to Falco and Sonic on Stream.
3: MJG - I'm sorry I failed in the plan. I am dishonored.
4: Seagull Joe - Ban Wolf
5: Kismet - You are the coolest of people. Top 5 coolest. Top 5 would beat me with Falco
5: Zinoto - I think you would have beaten me this time since I got lucky last time
7: DeLux - fraudulent

7: Coney - "Sometimes you just have to go hard"

- Coney after bodying me with DDD
9: Krystedez - Your Pit is scary. I wish I could loop like that
9: Fizzle - It's ok, I lose to Falco with ICs too
9: Kain - Don't quit. Yo if you REALLY want a job, I'll hook you up in KS if you want to move down. The irony would be you have to drive a bus
9: YoshQ - Fun as usual playing. Your luigi combo where you 0 to death'd me was jaw dropping
13: Kel - honor and privilege to meet you. I had to go into desperation mode to squeak out a win. First time I've had to kill Sopo for tactical advantage.
13: Nicole - Sad we didn't do our traditional 40 minute practice session
13: Zeton - glad your carpool worked out. Was getting really complex at one point
13: Croi - I could not hit your wario in doubles
17: DtJ S2 - Your DK was pretty awesome
17: Pink Fresh - Your Lucas is still legit and I'm a fan
17: Darc - Sad we didn't play
17: BPOW - Would have beaten me
17: Delta-Cod - It was amazing teaming with you. I'm sorry I was too heavy to carry, but had some fun with our counter picks
17: Judo - sad we didn't play
17: Player-1 - We don't drown by falling in the water. We drown by letting our heads fall beneath the surface. Keep your head up
17: Hadesblade - You're legit. Unfortunate we had to play in pools again
25: Future - You bodied me pretty hard
25: Ori_Bro - Awesome seeing you
25: Mister Eric - Nice seeing you
25: Mysterion - sad we didn't play
25: Stewyian - you're getting better
25: Ralph Cecil - sad we didn't play
25: Y.b.M. - I am so glad we finally got to play in touranment. Nothing but respect
25: DLA - Yo, I would drop a game to your ganon for sure just on fear aura. Not even kidding. Maybe even the set. I can't CG ganon to save my life.
33: Luminoth - Glad we didn't meet in bracket, would have lost to you lol
33: Roller - Sad we didn't play, but nice seeing you as usual. Keep putting in work, you're better than 33rd imo
33: Leaf - sad we didn't play
33: Kee - nice doubles friendlies
33: Sorasin - didn't even see you here. Would have said hi
33: jt556 - sad we didn't play
33: clowsui - Awesome tournament
33: Shadowphoenix - sad we didn't play
33: Spec - fun tournament set. Was surprised how good you were
33: MX - sad we didn't play
33: Carls - nice convo big man
33: Raziek - I have no idea how that fsmash broke my shield and how that fsmash killed me lol wtffffffff. Good stuff
33: Legan - Still the reason I picked up ZSS. Your words of encouragement meant a lot man
33: Ryker - yo, glad you made it out ok since you seem to have the worst car trouble
33: Tech_Chase - sad we didn't hang out much since your'e legit. had a long skype convo already though
33: The Thirst - fun doubles friendlies

Sneaky Tako - WTFFFFFFFFFFFFF. Why is your rob so good?
Nuzlocke Challenge - Dead @ level 3 hahahahahah
Bonds - Rise from the ashes and claim your glory
Fragger - We are putting in work. I think this tourney is the turning point for you
T22 - Atlantic East moments lol
Umashi - My god, you were so close to beating the Legend of Legan with Link int he ditto lol

If I forgot you I didn't mean to. Let me know and I'll give you a shoutout.

 

[BigLøu]

Reflex
Wario
NEVER
DIES
IFSHFJSFJSHFJ

 

[Ralph Cecil]

1: Reflex ($420.00) I wish I could've gotten to play you. D: Good job on winning this.
2: Shugo ($190.00) I've been going to Ohio tournaments for almost 3 years and still haven't gotten the chance to play you in tourney. >_<
3: MJG ($120.00) GGs in doubles. FOOOOTSTOOOOOL rageragerageragerage I wish I could've played you in bracket or friendlies or something. D:
4: Seagull Joe ($70) I wishI could've played against you as well. D: Also lol at that stream monster hate. They'll hate on anybody.
5: Kismet ($30) Your matches were really fun to watch lol. I wish I could've gotten in some friendlies or played you in bracket or something. D:
5: Zinoto ($30) Good job on 5th and yeah we need to just play friendlies or something at Phoenix Saga or something. :o
7: DeLux I wish I could've gotten to play you as well. D: Also it was crazy watching you make comebacks everytime I saw one of your matches.
7: Coney Wish I could've played some games with you as well. Need to learn that D3 mu better. :o
9: Krystedez We should play friendlies next time we get the chance. Your Wario is so fun to watch and our last set was really fun. :D
9: Fizzle Really wish you could've taken that set vs Seagull lol. That would've been so hype. :D Also we should play friendlies or something next time you go to a tournament or something, so I can learn the D3 mu. :o
9: Kain GGs in doubles lol. It was fun. ^_^ I wish I could've played you in singles as well, but meh. :I
9: YoshQ I haven't heard anything about you in the longest time and then you come here and get 9th lol. Good job. :D
13: Kel Thanks for the friendlies and the Marth help. It helped me so much. o_o I just messed up and kept doing those bad decision making things and yeah. D: Also it is just way too funny to me how that edgeguarding thing came into use in bracket lol.
13: Nicole
13: Zeton GGs in doubles. I wish game 2 would've been a bit closer at least, but oh well lol.
13: Croi I wish we could've gotten to play as well, so many OoR people and I didn't get to play a whole lot of them. D:
17: DtJ S2 Picking on me because of my shoes. :I I see how it is lol.
17: Darc GGs in bracket. :D Wish I could've at least taken a game, but I got to talk about the Marth mu and confirm so thoughts on the mu by talking to you so thanks for that. :D
17: BPOW Wish we could've played some friendlies at this. D: I wanted to see if i've gotten better at the Wario mu since our set at one of the SiiS tourneys. D:
17: Delta-Cod GGs in pools. Such close games. T_T Wish I could've pulled a game from our set, but oh well and playing you helped me fix so many problems as well. o_o Like before I played you I was just doing the dumbest things and then playing you just fixed some of those problems so thanks for that. :D Also thanks for talking to me about the mu and telling me some of my problems. ^_^
17: Judo hjgklhjjhgk Wish I could've taken game 2. >_<<<<< I was hoping to do better against you, but you were doing things that I didn't think of or expect lool. Also teach me the Sheik mu. Q_Q
17: Player-1 I wish I could've played some friendlies or something against you. D: I hardly ever get to play against good Diddy Kongs lol.
25: Ori_Bro Yeah inb4 us playing becomes as likely as the MI vs KY crew battle loool. Also I saw your set vs Pink Fresh and snaaap. o_o
25: Mister Eric I tink abut a showtout 4 u ferst.
25: Stewyian I don't remember who I saw you playing, but I haven't heard your tag before so it surprised me lol. Also your salt making abilities held up the tourney. Q_Q
25: Ralph Cecil Work on stuff and get better. Got a few wins, but there were some games that you dropped with poor decisions and poor adaptation. :I
25: Y.b.M. I should've tried to get some friendlies in with you. D: It's not often I would have a chance to play you. >_<
25: DLA Wish we could've played. o-o I think it would be fun to play you. :D Also learning the Ganon mu seems like it would be awesome too lol.
33: Luminoth I should've tried to get some friendlies in with you lol. Our games are always so close. o_o But there's always next local or something lol.
33: Roller I should've asked you to play some friendlies. o-o I never play the ICs mu and I feel like that's a mu I probably should try and learn.
33: Kee Unfortunate bracket man. D: We should've played some friendlies though it would've just been you walling me out the whole time. T_T
33: Sorasin Glad my Snake practice helped someone beat another Snake. :D Also we should've played some at this. :o
33: clowsui Awesome tournament. It's been one of the most fun tournaments i've been to in a while. ^_^ Also I just realized that we didn't play at this. o_o That just seems weird lol. Also teach me more about the Marth mu and my bad habits. D:
33: Shadowphoenix Fun friendlies and I didn't get to watch all of it, but I saw some of your games with Zinoto and snaaap. O-o
33: MX GGs in doubles lol. At least you did something that was fun lol. Also what happened to your placement? O-o We should've played some friendlies too. D: We are usually at the same tournaments, but never play. >_<
33: Carls GGs in pools. ^_^ Also that sucks about the double Sheik thing. :o You probably should pick up at secondary for those harder mus. o-o
33: Raziek GGs in bracket, and lol S2 told me about how he warned you about my spotdodging or something lol. I didn't realize that I spotdodged such silly things. o_o
33: Legan Thanks for playing me and OS in friendlies before the doubles bracket. ^_^ Also you made me feel so bad with those reads that you were getting on me. Q_Q
33: Tech_Chase Thanks for playing doubles friendlies with me and OS. ^_^ We should've played at this. D: Also i'm giving up on that crew battle. :I Too lazy lol.
33: The Thirst GGs in bracket lol. I loved how when something close happened you would get so animated lol. Your reactions things made that set and the tournament more fun lol.
49: WTP What happened? O_o Also we should've played at this and you should tell me what to do differently against D3. D:
49: Juu Wish we could've played at this. :o
49: Kassandra Sucks about what happened in pools for you. D: Would've liked to see you play some people in bracket. :D
49: Sneakytako I kept forgetting you were here, because I didn't hear the laugh. D: Also your pool was hard from what I remember. o_o Sucks you didn't make it out. D:
49: Bonds We should've tried to get a set up for Snake ditto friendlies with all of the Snakes at this. That would've been lulzy lol.
49: Overswarm Thanks for teaming with me, helping me with confidence stuff, and for the Snake bead art! :DDDDDDD I love it so much. ^_^ Just need to find a way to fit it into my stuff I take to tournaments, because apparently it's too big to just put on my Wii. D:
65: ShadowthePast :o
65: Jtsm We should've played Snake dittos and stuff. :o
65: Amida After playing friendlies with you I forgot that I didn't show you more gimmicky stuff. D: Just remind me of that next tourney we are at and i'll show you more stuff.
65: FalconsFist GGs in doubles. Also what happened in pools? D: It was so scary to play against you last time we played. o_o
81: Silver GGs in pools. Those were unfortunate SDs game 2. Also I think you probably should've tried to keep your items, but just be a bit more tricky with them, because I just just stop them with my jab if you just straight up throw them towards me.
81: Soulpech Wish you could've made it out of pools. D: Would've liked to see you rest everyone in your way lol.

Hilt Awesome tournament. ^_^ Had a really good time at this. :D


If I forgot anyone i'm sry. D: Also plz have Brinstar legal next tournament plz. D: I cp people there. T_T

 

[Delta-cod]

17: Delta-Cod - It was amazing teaming with you. I'm sorry I was too heavy to carry, but had some fun with our counter picks

The carrying thing was a joke. Don't worry about it, lol. I had an AMAZINGLY hilarious time teaming with you. Oh my god I was so hype. XD

17: Delta-Cod GGs in pools. Such close games. T_T Wish I could've pulled a game from our set, but oh well and playing you helped me fix so many problems as well. o_o Like before I played you I was just doing the dumbest things and then playing you just fixed some of those problems so thanks for that. :D Also thanks for talking to me about the mu and telling me some of my problems. ^_^

No problem bro. I look forward to playing you in the future. You better fix them problems. =P

 

[MX778]

I dun goofed!

I hadn't been playing that much at all lately and because of that, I didn't feel very confident in this tourney. I got maaaaddd salty after losing to Croi and Zeton in bracket, nontheless this tourney was amazing. shoutouts to chi. I'll do better next time.

Because of my saltiness, I'm gonna' use that saltiness to try to go to PS5 to redeem myself.

The yoshi herd is too good.

I'll do full shoutouts a little later.

 

[Overswarm]

Chi, stop overreacting. W/L having priority over head to head is how things should be done. A player's performance in the overall pool has a greater influence towards you getting out than the individual people that you beat. Head to Head is the first tie breaker, while set wins and game wins are the primary qualifications for making it into bracket. It's the reason set wins takes priority over head to head as well. You did not screw anyone out of pools.

I'm a strong believer in W/L ratio taking priority. Not because of popular opinion, but because it contains more valid logic than head to head and makes the most sense when you actually take a moment to think about it.

Kassandra, I apologize that you feel you were screwed out of the situation because of it all. But I have made it a point to use this method at each of my events, ever since I noticed it would create an issue and debate if unspecified. That said, I'll continue to use the method at any event that pools are a part of that I run. It'll be a shame if you aren't present because of this, but that isn't enough to make me change the rule or refund money to those that feel they were cheated. Whether or not Chi does the latter is on him.

That said, you're my buddy and I hope I! haven't offended you in any way. I also hope that your mind changes and you do come to future tournaments I'm a part of.

This has never been a logical position. Smash is a game of counterpicks and imbalanced matchups. If you get doubleblinded and you pick Falco and the other guy uses his pocket ICs and you get wrecked on the first stage, and then you destroy him with your other character the next two rounds, the one win does not indicate future success from that IC player.

We've always decided set wins because set wins are what counts. Chi most certainly did screw Kassandra out of pools, and did so because something that was solved years ago was discarded because it wasn't thought through.


Check this out:

We run a tournament with one round of pools, 3 players in each pool and 4 pools (to make the match easy). Top one get out of each pool each round.

If you have a guy who wins every set 2-1, and another guy who wins every set 2-0, and when they finally meet you have the 2-1 guy win with another 2-1, and the person who had nothing but 2-0 lose 1-2.

In this first pool, their record looks like this:

First guy: 6-3
Second guy: 5-2

That's the difference in their record. One win, one loss. Who is more likely to do better in future rounds, and who should advance? Hard to tell when they're so close, right? Win - loss = 3 for both of 'em.

So why does the guy who won one more set move on? Why was that decision made in the Smash community?


To further push this example, if you extrapolate it (pool of 6) you would have this:

First guy: 12-6
Second guy: 11-2


The second guy clearly bodied everyone in his pool except for the guy who 2-1'd everyone. But the guy with a win-loss score of 6 is advancing while a guy with a win-loss score of 9 is not.

Why was this decision made in the smash community?

Why do we use sets in the first place?

Because there is no such thing as a neutral stage nor a fair matchup, and variance is an expected factor in the Smash community. When you win a game it is isolated to that set alone and doesn't move on to a future match. Some characters are expected to have a "free" win on their counterpick and have for ages. Just having a pocket Dedede or ICs or Pikachu or Sheik can net you some serious free wins. Just ask Carls who had to face two Sheiks. There are nigh unwinnable matchups in this game and they occur. Losing one match to them is not indicative of talent or potential to win. Some characters, such as ICs, are almost always expected to lose when counter-picked. They are a highly volatile character in that they can have a near 100-0 matchup on some stages and a near 0-100 matchup against the same character on another stage. ICs rarely have 2-0 victories or losses in an even skill environment against prepared opponents, assuming the stage list is fair. It's the nature of the character.

The only format that actively uses the win/loss ratio is a True Swiss format which Smash has typically avoided. Round Robin is better in every way save for time, and Bracket saves for time (except for the new awesome OS system that everyone should use), so the smash community has historically used those rather than Swiss. We've tried swiss before and people didn't like it much.

If you lose the first match, you are expected to have an uphill battle unless you put some serious work into stages or characters (or both) and can compensate for these disadvantages. It rewards dedication and practice.

Given the bracket setup, you'll notice that winning every match 2-0 or 2-1 has no difference whatsoever in placement.

So why does win-loss even count in pools as a tie-breaker?


Because of three-way ties. That's literally the only reason. The best solution is a full 3 game rematch, but there's rarely time for that so, win-losses was the best we could do.



If you think win-losses should be before head-to-head but AFTER set wins, you've got some serious explaining to do because head-to-head is valuing the same thing as set wins. Valuing win/loss ratio is a completely different metric that isn't relevant anywhere else in the Smash community at all.


If someone won 2-0 all match save for one 1-2 and someone else won every match 2-1, is it a tie in a 3 man pool?

Does the guy who won more sets advance or the guy with less losses advance in a pool of 6?

If you run multiple pools and one guy 2-0's everyone in every pool until the last one, and then loses one set 1-2, does he lose the tournament because his opponent 2-1'd everyone, even though he only lost two games?

How can you justify using a different metric in one situation and not in the others? It isn't indicative of future success, that's for sure. Your pool composition of characters is more indicative of your win/loss ratio than your ability to do well in a tournament.

You're making an assumption that you can predict future success by the amount of 2-0's a person has when this isn't the case. Sets are what count, and head-to-head is a set. In a two way tie, the winner of the head-to-head moves on. It wasn't a decision that was made lightly but it's been consistent amongst every TO for over a decade for a reason, and it isn't because it wasn't thought through.

 

[DeLux]

The carrying thing was a joke. Don't worry about it, lol. I had an AMAZINGLY hilarious time teaming with you. Oh my god I was so hype. XD

haha, I know you were
But especially in our first loss I felt bad because of how poorly I did. Could not figure out what to do against Marth at all and Wario was elusive.

You probably could have top5'd or monyed with a better teammate. But if you ever want to team again it was the most fun I've had in doubles in a long time. Playing the Delta Cod way was too hype for us. I'm sure everyone we played hated it though lol

 

[DtJ Hilt]

@OS, first bit of logic I've heard from that end on the matter. If its been made before in the past, I must have missed it. If I ever end up running a tournament in the future, I'll put a lot more thought into that end. Appreciate it.

Edit: You also made me consider swiss pools, haha.

 

[Delta-cod]

haha, I know you were
But especially in our first loss I felt bad because of how poorly I did. Could not figure out what to do against Marth at all and Wario was elusive.

You probably could have top5'd or monyed with a better teammate. But if you ever want to team again it was the most fun I've had in doubles in a long time. Playing the Delta Cod way was too hype for us. I'm sure everyone we played hated it though lol

I never expect to money ever, despite trying my heart out to get there. You also assume people want to team with me in the first place.

10/10 experience, would team again.

 

[@TKbreezy]

I'm glad you caught yourself reaching for sympathy Chi. I was def about to have some words for you.

you probably wouldn't have liked them.

 

[Strong Badam]

Chi, just give anyone who was upset a BJ. It'll make it all better.

I'm really upset about what happened at this tournament.

 

[Exceladon City]

Ralph, I told you about your spotdodge habit. >_>

Adam quit being thirsty.

 

[Raziek]

Ralph, I told you about your spotdodge habit. >_>

I... don't think it's a bad thing. He timed it well enough to spot-dodge the entirety of a Dancing Blade and hit me back with F-Tilt for 21.

Like, his spotdodge seemed better than regular Snake spotdodge.

 

[Overswarm]

@OS, first bit of logic I've heard from that end on the matter. If its been made before in the past, I must have missed it. If I ever end up running a tournament in the future, I'll put a lot more thought into that end. Appreciate it.

Edit: You also made me consider swiss pools, haha.

You don't hear a lot of the logic for a lot of the things because they all occurred several years ago, many of them hidden in the BBR (because if we made a thread in the public like "should Brinstar be banned" we'd get less than adequate responses), but it's there. I don't think there are many rules left that work.


Swiss "pools" don't work well, but a full Swiss tournament could. Smashers just don't seem to like it though. The idea that your next match could be anyone, you can't anticipate who you're going to play, and you're never quite sure how important a match is all seemed to confuse Smashers.

That said, it would make stream play waaaaaay better because you'd always have at least one stream-worthy match.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ralph, I told you about your spotdodge habit. >_>

Adam quit being thirsty.

I... don't think it's a bad thing. He timed it well enough to spot-dodge the entirety of a Dancing Blade and hit me back with F-Tilt for 21.

Like, his spotdodge seemed better than regular Snake spotdodge.

Yeah. He spotdodged a lot, but I don't think he did so in a way that made it a bad habit. I get ****ing destroyed out of spotdodge a bunch of times. @_@

 

[SoulPech]

Spec:

Best shoutout ever.

 

[SoulPech]

Double post for Chi and justice:

Chi, I want you to reread some of these posts. I want you to locate anyone that has said "That was a horrible tournament/worst tourney ever. I'll never attend this tourney again." or something along those lines. You may see some posts where they didn't like the ruleset or their experience, but that's on them...not you. Everyone so far has mentioned they had so much fun at this tourney. Look at all the things you did right and stick to those. As for the things you did 'bad', look at it as 'things to improve'. Stop beating over yourself over the 'bad' and emphasize on the good things you did at this tourney. For example, you were ahead of schedule for doubles and singles and not even with the right amount of TVs and/or Wis. Take this experience and move forward!

 

[clowsui]

I'm glad you caught yourself reaching for sympathy Chi. I was def about to have some words for you.

you probably wouldn't have liked them.

lol don't worry i know when i'm being a giant *****

which ironically is most of the time? LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

also ralph's spotdodge is ***. if ralph EVER spotdodges against me, he eats 40+ damage. against marth ralph always spotdodges multiple times because he's scared or is trying to bait a reaction out of you. he never spotdodges as a prediction-type maneuver.

ralph if you want to spotdodge vs marth start predicting what they do and also learn the exact timing of when/where you can spotdodge marth's moves. ally is really freaking good at this and that's why playing him as marth is really gay, because even if you change your timing he knows exactly when to roll and exactly when to try and block

 

[sneakytako]

This has never been a logical position. Smash is a game of counterpicks and imbalanced matchups. If you get doubleblinded and you pick Falco and the other guy uses his pocket ICs and you get wrecked on the first stage, and then you destroy him with your other character the next two rounds, the one win does not indicate future success from that IC player.

We've always decided set wins because set wins are what counts. Chi most certainly did screw Kassandra out of pools, and did so because something that was solved years ago was discarded because it wasn't thought through.


Check this out:

We run a tournament with one round of pools, 3 players in each pool and 4 pools (to make the match easy). Top one get out of each pool each round.

If you have a guy who wins every set 2-1, and another guy who wins every set 2-0, and when they finally meet you have the 2-1 guy win with another 2-1, and the person who had nothing but 2-0 lose 1-2.

In this first pool, their record looks like this:

First guy: 6-3
Second guy: 5-2



That's the difference in their record. One win, one loss. Who is more likely to do better in future rounds, and who should advance? Hard to tell when they're so close, right? Win - loss = 3 for both of 'em.

So why does the guy who won one more set move on? Why was that decision made in the Smash community?

Ok first of all this example is confusing. I'm assuming a total of 4 people were playing, and that P-1 has a set record of 3-0 vs P-2 has a set record of 2-1. Clearly P-1 deserves to progress farther in the tournament, set counts are clearly more important than overall wins/losses in pools or bracket. What is your point?

To further push this example, if you extrapolate it (pool of 6) you would have this:

First guy: 12-6
Second guy: 11-2

The second guy clearly bodied everyone in his pool except for the guy who 2-1'd everyone. But the guy with a win-loss score of 6 is advancing while a guy with a win-loss score of 9 is not.

Why was this decision made in the smash community?

Why do we use sets in the first place?

Are you seriously making an arguement against using set counts vs using wins and losses? The wins/losses system is simply in place of clearing tie breakers between people who have the same set counts. It makes 0 difference in a tournament if a player wins the tournament winnning every set 2-1, 3-2, w/e. If they win the required amount of games to win each set, they win.

Most of the time, no one cares you won a game off of someone, it plays no role in determining who advances. Like I said the only time it makes a difference it when a set count is tied in pools.

If your arguement is that Wins/losses is stupid and head-to-head matters more then you need to compare these two against each other, not against set counts. I would argue that wins/losses more accurately seperates ties in set counts based off of silly arguements of inui logic. While you may have lost against the player you have tied against, you need to have beaten one of the players the other guy lost too. Is that win more significant than your loss to that player? How can you judge that? The most unbaised piece of evidence is wins/losses, numerical data is more unbiased than situational calls.

Because there is no such thing as a neutral stage nor a fair matchup, and variance is an expected factor in the Smash community. When you win a game it is isolated to that set alone and doesn't move on to a future match. Some characters are expected to have a "free" win on their counterpick and have for ages. Just having a pocket Dedede or ICs or Pikachu or Sheik can net you some serious free wins. Just ask Carls who had to face two Sheiks. There are nigh unwinnable matchups in this game and they occur. Losing one match to them is not indicative of talent or potential to win. Some characters, such as ICs, are almost always expected to lose when counter-picked. They are a highly volatile character in that they can have a near 100-0 matchup on some stages and a near 0-100 matchup against the same character on another stage. ICs rarely have 2-0 victories or losses in an even skill environment against prepared opponents, assuming the stage list is fair. It's the nature of the character.

Let me play Carls a sad song on the worlds smallest violin. While it's true that some character, even player MUs exist in a rock-paper-scissors balance, the player that wins most often deserves to progress. If we are to doubt that the most consistant player is to advance, then what are we doing? Why even play this game if the results can't tell who is the better player?

The only format that actively uses the win/loss ratio is a True Swiss format which Smash has typically avoided. Round Robin is better in every way save for time, and Bracket saves for time (except for the new awesome OS system that everyone should use), so the smash community has historically used those rather than Swiss. We've tried swiss before and people didn't like it much.

If you lose the first match, you are expected to have an uphill battle unless you put some serious work into stages or characters (or both) and can compensate for these disadvantages. It rewards dedication and practice.

Blah blah swiss blah blah.

Given the bracket setup, you'll notice that winning every match 2-0 or 2-1 has no difference whatsoever in placement.

So why does win-loss even count in pools as a tie-breaker?


Because of three-way ties. That's literally the only reason. The best solution is a full 3 game rematch, but there's rarely time for that so, win-losses was the best we could do
.
If you think win-losses should be before head-to-head but AFTER set wins, you've got some serious explaining to do because head-to-head is valuing the same thing as set wins. Valuing win/loss ratio is a completely different metric that isn't relevant anywhere else in the Smash community at all.

*copy pasted from above.
If your arguement is that Wins/losses is stupid and head-to-head matters more then you need to compare these two against each other, not against set counts. I would argue that wins/losses more accurately seperates ties in set counts based off of silly arguements of inui logic. While you may have lost against the player you have tied against, you need to have beaten one of the players the other guy lost too. Is that win more significant than your loss to that player? How can you judge that? The most unbaised piece of evidence is wins/losses, numerical data is more unbiased than situational calls.

And the rest of your post can be rebuttaled with the above.

Pretty much in a two way tie, how do you value one win over another? To avoid such a conflict, numerical W/L are more unbaised. That is a legitimate train of thought. I'm not going to say it unfailiable, but it derserves recognition of logical merit. It's not blasphamous to consider W/L before head to head.

Is Kassandra beating Ori more significant than Ori beating Fizzle? Fizzle obviously made it farther than Ori, isn't Fizzle a better win? Or how about we ignore all that and look at W/L first. Seems legit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I... don't think it's a bad thing. He timed it well enough to spot-dodge the entirety of a Dancing Blade and hit me back with F-Tilt for 21.

Like, his spotdodge seemed better than regular Snake spotdodge.

Yeah. He spotdodged a lot, but I don't think he did so in a way that made it a bad habit. I get ****ing destroyed out of spotdodge a bunch of times. @_@

Luck-based combaaaaaaaat~

 

[Napos]

Shoutouts to my car overheating on the way back to Georgia despite my filling the radiator with coolant before leaving Cincinnati. ****.

Good ol' car issues. Might've been a leak in engine.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Spent most of my winnings getting it back to Columbus and fixing it (busted hose in Atlanta). No long-term damage, thankfully (or so it seems).

Still, come onnnnnnnnn.