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Ehh...Fire Wall and Arcfire have differences beyond one being faster than the other. Arcfire, for example, can trap the opponent and activates in the air while Fire Wall is...well...a wall.
I think he's more talking about landing, which Robin is pretty bad at. It's better with stages that have platforms, though.
Check with @
Raziek
, I think he has some tips.
tfw trying to be sassy but you get taken seriously and demolished. Shows how much I know about Robin customs lmao
Our interpretations are so different. When I saw "Give him something besides nosferatuing someone sheilding while bodying you." I think of trying to attack on shield, not landing. You might be right though.
Yeah, my up-B idea was really just a quality-of-life thing; I wanted it because...well similar up specials had it so why not ours. Plus we could make up some neat stuff with that as an option, who knows; apparently the game Robin has right now isn't working out as well as it could.
Thank you for not thinking it needs to be gone.
I disagree with a few things.
No it's not. Thoron is just too easy to see coming and even with forward throw, a player who knows of the combo will easily DI out of the way. ArcFire is not consistent and not reliable in much higher levels as it's able to be pinpointed by higher skill players, it can be escaped and DI'd out of still, and loses it viability in later percentages, and down throw does not have that much end lag and the true reason it can't combo is because of the fact the knockback gives the opponent enough time to DI or spot/air dodge. Also, Nair could benefit a little better with slightly less landing lag as speed/rushdown characters, as well as shielding opponents, can immediately catch Robin afterwards and punish it. The changes listed are just to reduce the pressure game on Robin. They are not huge changes that will suddenly make the character OP by any means. Robin's abilities and movesets are just way too reliant on the skill level of the opponent, and he suffers tremendously because of it. I love the character, but Robin is heavily flawed and is severely lagging behind because of all of the buffs every character has been given, and Robin has received nearly close to nothing. Including the Durability System still present (being shaved off of just 2 seconds), Robin could use some of these, as Ike has been buffed considerably to being upper-mid tier now, as well as Link.
I'm might not have played too long, but Thoron is already a pretty good move as it is. It's the fastest moving charge special I can think of while still being powerful in both damage and knockback. It takes a while to charge and has a little start-up but I'll take that any day; it just needs planned use and that's perfectly fair. If people are DI'ing forward throw in such a way to dodge Thoron, you're probably not using Thoron at the best time. Short hopping or even full hopping and using it as a mix-up worked pretty well for me if they dodged immediate use often, plus it catches air dodges or you can even mix it up Arcfire at mid-low %'s to block an option and get more time to think without using up Thoron. Just theory, I've only done it a few times without knowing for sure.
No. Too many people opt out of using Thoron and use ArcThunder over it. I use Thoron often as well and has killed reliably for me many times, however, it's not as reliable as it should be, and the travel speed does not make it a viable option in serious play because not only is Robin's startup frames obvious giveaways for when the move is activated and how, but too many people are saying it is very easy to just block and dodge. Even after seeing its full potential, nobody fears it. I'm not saying it should sail the stage in half a second, but just a small boost in travel speed would definitely help him in the long run. His speed, frame animation for the end of Thoron, and air game will still make him still difficult to control, so there are still things he already has to balance himself.
What are you talking about? Thoron is great for surprising your opponents while they're close to the uppermost blast line. This has given me great success and has killed at surprisingly low percents. If Thoron is getting you killed you're using it wrong. And Thoron IS easy to block if you use it on the ground. Here's a word of advice; DONT! Use Thoron in the air. You use Arcthunder, and Elthunder to put on the pressure on the ground.
NO Robin does not need combos. You don't need a 50% combo like Marios or Luigis combos to be feared. You can easily be feared for just doing your job right. Robin could easily be feared if he played a good Projectile and Defensive game. Thats all he needs to be a huge threat on the battlefield.
Robin hasn't gotten worse (aside from that unnecessary nerf his Elwind Jab recently received) Its just players have been getting better. Robin was said to be amazing during the 3ds days because, well its the 3ds and people weren't used to the controls. Robin has also stayed relatively the same while other characters got buffed exg: Ike, Marth/Lucina, Link etc.
Umm...Are you talking the Japan tier lists, Reddit tier lists, or Eventhubs tier lists? Those are the only consistently updating ones I've seen.
Yes, I am talking about all tier lists, American, Japanese, Reddit, player input, etc. There is an obvious trend happening and Robin is moving lower. That is my point to saying that. Please, just hear me out, as the changes are not huge ones.
Just the time it takes a projectile getting from point A to point B. I was trying to give Robin changes without removing his weaknesses, but your idea is miles better than mine.
Actually, he's starting to be seen lower than that now, more like mid-low tier now. This is also why he should get some buffs. They are very minor aesthetic changes though.
Me and some other people have already stated why we think he hasn't been getting buffed. to quote myself here "The few people who still play Robin do fairly well so they dont see a reason to give him a buff"
Again, if you're consistently missing with Thoron you're using it wrong. And this is coming from someone who plays against people who regularly go to tournaments. They have been hit by the strategy I had stated in a previous post numerous times and still get hit by it. Its hard to doge. (which Im not going to restate. its literally a few posts above this one)
@ A aceorduece : Please refrain from double-posting. Edit your posts rather than making a new one (if nobody has posted in between).
We're more lenient on double-posting if the thread has been quiet for like 24 hours or something, but posting in quick succession is against site rules.
I won't be issuing an infraction for it, as you're clearly very new, but please keep it in mind for the future, and make sure to edit instead of double-post!
I don't miss Thoron. It's just not as rewarding in scenarios as it should be. I left no implication of how I play, so why are you juts assuming my play style without even knowing how I play? I've already explained the majority of my wins are from playing Robin alone. I've beaten good Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ness, Shulk, Fox, Luigi, Mario, Sonic, and Zero Suit Samus players, however, they lose simply because they don't know the matchup well enough. I do play good Robins and I beat them with my secondaries as well as my own Robin. I am well versed with Robin's potential, but now everyone else's potential has increased, so now Robin is having a harder time. If I had the recordings still, I would definitely show them to you. My only point is Robin still needs more tools now with the constant update changes in the meta game, as he is getting nothing. I'm still new to this site and its rules, and it seems I'm in trouble for not knowing how to use the thread, but I'm just trying to say that Robin DESERVES better fighting tools for this constantly changing meta game. I can understand if you don't like me because you think I'm saying he's a bad character overall, but that's not what I'm saying. If I thought he was, I would have suggested changes to his dash attack. Otherwise, there are still a lot of people mocking Thoron. That was the purpose of the travel speed, but someone already suggested instead to reduce some frame data of its startup, as the startup for the move is 20 frames long, which already concluded as being much better. I never said I ever quit using Robin either. He's still in my list of mains, but you can disagree with me all you want. I feel in my heart Robin DESERVES a few buffs in the meta game, simply because of the fact that the fall is not his fault, and neither is it the players.Me and some other people have already stated why we think he hasn't been getting buffed. to quote myself here "The few people who still play Robin do fairly well so they dont see a reason to give him a buff"
Again, if you're consistently missing with Thoron you're using it wrong. And this is coming from someone who plays against people who regularly go to tournaments. They have been hit by the strategy I had stated in a previous post numerous times and still get hit by it. Its hard to doge. (which Im not going to restate. its literally a few posts above this one)
Btw thanks for cleaning up the thread
we can dream TwT
Every time I mentioned ArcFire or Thoron, everybody kept telling me if "I" am doing this or that in a certain way, I am simply playing the character wrong. The things I mentioned were supposed to be very minor tweaks that serve to at best reduce the effectiveness of rush down and reduce the pressure most Robin players face. I know too much will make him too strong, which was why I suggested very small, but noticeable changes, just like how Ike has been treated as they paid more attention to his moves and made him much more viable with it, especially since Robin hasn't been checked in a long time. It actually saddened me more that almost everyone were willing to turn a blind to Robin's faults and simply blame the players for the lowering Robin statistics. If the change was supposed to be big, like reducing Robin's landing lag with neutral air, I would say change it drastically, as Robin is not the only character I've been working on. At most, frames should reduce between 3-5 if no indication is made. Now someone commented on the Startup Frames from Thoron, and I agreed that that is the better idea to stick with by reducing a few frames. Doesn't help that I suddenly got in a grudge match against Little Mac defenders on Youtube that also greatly overestimate Little Mac's approach options (not saying he's bad mind you) and underestimated Robin and players who constantly try to bait Little Mac's defense. I understand opinions, but it's fact that things like that happen. As for ArcFire, I feel the frame data of the pose, as well as travel speed of the attack, should speed up slightly. The same with the nerfing of throw knockback "growth" of forward and down as they still will need a jump or at least slightly increase their hitstun times, but at least he would have a better chance to do the follow up they need instead of just hoping the opponents doesn't know the matchup well and not DI like an average player would.
I of all people know Robin has faults. I'd go as far as say I think hes a bad character. But I stand by what I said about how you use Thoron. Its fine the way it is now and anyone who consistently misses is using it wrong. Robin needs other changes such as changes to Arcfire. Grabs, Arials etc. Thoron is literally the least of Robin's worries as Thoron can be relied on almost all the time if used correctly (unlike other faults Robin has) We aren't turning blind eyes to Robins faults. We're just saying the one change you want is a change he doesn't need. if you take it as us turning a blind eye to Robin's faults well frankly that's your problem.
I dont want to be that guy, but I would prefer if Thoron would you know kill like ten percent earlier, but that is legit the only thing I would change about it
Sorry. Could you please just stop making suggestions on how to use Thoron for a minute? I know how to use it, but it needs to be more reliable and either just reduce a little amount of startup lag or make it travel a little quicker because it still depends too heavily on whether or not the opponent knows the matchups or not, just like how they fixed his Wind Jab issue before 1.6 as well as ArcFire, but I recall you were telling me how Robin doesn't need a buff, but that's your opinion, and that's alright. I'm just a little sick of fighting about it right now.
That's not a bad thing either.
If multiple mainers are saying that they're able to do something with Thoron and you're not getting the same results, there's some kind of difference in usage there and there's bound to be a person or two that asks about your method. We're not trying to say you're using it wrong or poorly, but other people have found other ways around what you're saying and it's probably better to ask about those before continuing to push your idea through the disagreements. I'm pretty sure we're not taking sides or anything like that.
We're making suggestions about how to use Thoron because, for me, I find Thoron to be very reliable without any modification. Of course, it *could* be better, but that, logically, is always going to be true. I think the point we're getting at is this: Is the point of disagreement a result of an inherent limit on Robin's potential, or is it the result of unrealized and/or unmaximized potential on the part of the player? The answer to this will likely correspond to whether we think it is necessary to buff Robin vis-a-vis this point, or whether the buffs are simply something we would like or want.
The reason why Robin's mobility is so bad is because of said projectiles...
Maybe I should rephrase it to, please stop telling me how I should use Thoron, because I know how to use it and use it well. I clearly said that because, I know what Thoron can do, and to say you can't or shouldn't use it in the air is not good advice as it's very reliable in the air, and many of his kills for Thoron comes from miss timed aerial dodges as it is both an extreme pressure tool and a somewhat unpredictable KO move if used in the air, but can be read properly, however, it can just lose a couple of startup frames, which is not a huge change, not to mention just telling me if I do this or that, you simply aren't doing it right, which is not my point at all, and it seems you are blaming me for whatever issues Robin has because of a suggestion and I'm just a bad player, apparently. The biggest reason I made that list was solely because of the constant character upgrades, and yet Robin has not yet been touched, and it is affecting him in battle. I simply just wanted to justify my reasoning so no one will think I don't know Robin or what I'm talking about like people did to the original poster.
Thoron is not on my priority list, but what I got was the when someone kept telling me how I shouldn't use it in the air and things like that, which are untrue as it's totally reliable as an air move, and it seems everyone here got the wrong idea that I think Thoron is terrible. At best, I described it a slight, which means just a few milliseconds early, which is not very significant if you think about it, and it is far from the only thing I mentioned. As for ArcFire, I personally just think slightly reducing some knockback on the ArcFire pixels before the final explosion for better pressure like Wind Jab, and maybe slightly increasing its travel speed would help.
As I said, please do not try to tell me how I should and should not use Thoron. The most my change would do is make it come out a few milliseconds sooner, so it's not much of a significant buff at all, in fact, it's almost literally as if nothing happened, and please no more assuming that I think the move is bad. It's solely just me explaining my reason as well as proof that I know my character well enough to justify it instead of just spouting out random stuff and not even having an inkling of what the character is all about. If you still think I'm just saying Robin's Thoron is terrible, then that's your problem, not mine.
What you quoted wasn't me telling you how to play the character. If I wanted to I most certainly could. All I (and many others) are saying is he doesn't need that change. We get success with Thoron so we feel it doesn't need to happen. What you quoted was literally what I just said here. Now, get back on topic and quit insisting everyone is telling you how to play Robin.
They actually put all that in several patches ago. You just have have to enter the secret code: up up down down lefter right left right A B character select shiek
With all due respect, this is one of the examples I'm talking about. I even said beforehand that I knew of it, but still insisted that I'm using it incorrectly. Maybe you didn't truly recognize it, but that was exactly what you were doing with that comment. Also, Thoron works well in the air, but it's best that you don't use it while offstage.
This is also another example. Never have I said I struggle with using Thoron in any of my comments, and if you thought I had or assumed that I thought that Thoron is a bad move, I'm sorry, but please as I am asking you respectfully to refrain from doing this and just see what my posts for what they are, an in-depth analysis, and even if it works for you, I am giving credit to smarter, better players who can get around his tricks way too easily without need or pressure, and I am including myself, not to sound narcissistic or arrogant in the least. Just as you have had people on here who seem to agree with you, I have had people on other mediums that agreed with me, after some sound debating, so whatever you seem to think of me, please do not assume just because I am a newcomer to this site does not mean that I don't know what I am referring to specifically.
I never said he needed combos either. I more than agree with you on this matter, however, this was to create just a more reliable, but still risky, way to connect with certain moves in low to mid percentages, which was why I said reduce the knockback (growth) of down/forward throw. I don't want another Link/Charizard/Luigi like combo for him either, but it's clearly too much knockback even for 0%, and if not the knockback, at least very, very slightly increase the hit stun time to make DI'ing a little harder to escape from, but still possible for the opponent to dodge in later percentages, and this is assuming the opponents knows how to properly DI, but make it somewhat slightly harder for the opponent to DI out of it.
Like I said, the reason there is so much for Robin listed is because of the abundant amount of buffs many characters like Ike, Meta Knight, Marth, Zelda, and Link have been getting, and yet Robin has hardly been touched since the beginning of the game. My only point is the metagame is getting unnecessarily harder for him to keep control now and simply needs a boost or some help, like certain other characters do.
Like I said, before, I will stay with my stance to just decrease the startup lag of Thoron. At best, it will come out within just a few milliseconds faster while keeping his end lag, which isn't too significant or noticeable to begin with. To me, it's absolutely the smallest change on the list, whether you think it's necessary or not, but coming out of a few (4 to 5) milliseconds faster will not make him suddenly over powered. I'm simply giving my answer to the unpopular decision, not some huge debate over how Robin is practically the Captain America/Batman of this game and the need for strategy which I'm all too familiar with. With all respect, I respect you're opinion, but it will not change what I think either, as I think it would benefit him just slightly without even coming close to being eventually breakable. My biggest things I want for Robin are as goes:
You know what would really make Up Taunt Tip Some Mother****ing scales? Make it have a hitbox as big as Palutenas Temple ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
