Roy's dair

[Scaremonger]

Is there an actual reason that Roy's sweetspotted dair is a "powerful meteor smash" rather than a true spike like Marth's? I've seen so many Roy players get totally robbed of a stock just because Roy's dair isn't a true spike like Marth's, most notably in Sethlon vs Mew2King at Apex recently. I don't really see why it'd be important balance-wise for Roy's dair to be a meteor smash rather than a spike.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I personally believe such is such on the grounds that D-Tilt to Sweetspot downair is Jesus-Cake as is, and considering how much horizontal momentum Roy can build up in comparison to Marth.....it would be pretty insane once Roy got the opponent to the edge. Besides, meteors in general are still insanely helpful to characters that can combo out of them, and they have more plausible kill power in Project M in comparison to Melee, so I'd give some more time to the move to see just what us Roys' cook up.

 

[Spralwers]

For that instance, Sethlon missed the L cancel on the dair. If he didn't miss it, he could've charged the f smash a little more and definitely gotten the kill. A bair may have worked as well, whether in place of the dair or immediately after l canceling the dair. You have to think of Roy's dair as a combo move moreso than a killer. Roy's got lots of kill moves already whereas Marth doesn't have as many, which is probably the motivation for Roy's being a meteor.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

IMO whenever roy can ken combo, he can just finish the combo with bair and ken combo for roy would only happen at higher percents cuz long percent weak fair doesnt have enough hitstun and strong fair move them too far for the sweet spot on dair

 

[Azureflames]

• Personally i dont think Dair should be viewed as a meteor offstage. The only reason to try for it is to be flashy and look cool. It's not a reliable way to gimp someone and will probably get you killed if you dont know your limits and if you miss, you're now at a disadvantage to edgeguarding. Roy has a lot of good edgeguarding options that dont require him to jump offstage.

• I think in a realistic sense if Roy can get to a position to Dair sweetspot he can easily get a Bair sweetspot as a finisher, plus Bair is more reliable (especially from the front/reverse hitbox). As for Dair sweetspot i think its a good tool for platform combos/disruption and somewhat of an okay option out of shield (though i havn't found it to be very effective since its not really that fast or easy to hit reliably, i find SHFFL Nair better out of shield).
• I think people should start experimenting more with DED side specials and the speed timing for xx^ spike. There's two speeds due to end lag on hits. Its not as hard as it seems either if you can do it really fast. (seriously, start practicing this its flippin good)

 

[Frost | Odds]

The dair being a meteor feels extremely unfair against tether characters, notably Ivysaur, Link and Lucas. Against others, you can kinda edgeguard by forcing them to upB at a bad time (though certainly not always), but against tethers it just seems like a really unnecessary weakness on the end of a long list of em. Would it really be a balance problem if it was changed to a true spike -- particularly considering how awkward/precise the positioning is for the sweetspot?

If there were a petition, I'd sign it. Eh.

 

[Remo]

For what you have to do for a sweetspot it should be a true spike. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd also argue that Roy should probably be rewarded for taking the suicidal risk of being offstage for any reason.

 

[Remo]

I'd also argue that Roy should probably be rewarded for taking the suicidal risk of being offstage for any reason.

If you miss the Dair its over. End of discussion. amirite?

 

[G13_Flux]

this has been discussed way too many times and youre bassically just repeating useless discussions from other threads within the roy boards. imo this should be closed, because this contributes no good to the discussion of roys character, and is just repetetive at this point. like really, several people have already quoted that same exact match, complaining about the same thing.

its not a spike, so get over it. no offense meant, but this convo is literally all over the boards, and its going to help you way more to just figure out how to play roy as is instead of trying to turn him into marth, which is what a spike would be doing. theres a lot of people here who just gave very sound reasoning as to why it doesnt need to be a spike, as it would actually hinder his onstage game.

 

[Scaremonger]

Yeah, this thread definitely needs to be closed. It's almost half a year old, now, and I have been well aware of why it isn't a spike for a long time now lol.

 

[Azureflames]

Ive said it multiple times, id prefer it stay a meteor because it helps his onstage game more. Roy has a decent amount of edgeguarding options anyway. Plus Despite people's beliefs, he can rising Fair with a full hop to gimp fairly low under the ledge and stlil make it back to the stage. Otherwise he can just as easily Flareblade off the ledge, Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, SHFFL Nair, grab the ledge, or ledgehop Bair. Dair should not be the main point of interest. Stop saying "why can't we Dair spike" and think "what else could we do to work around it"

Agreed, thread should just be closed already.

 

[Brim]

As others said this thread should be closed.
However, I'm still inclined on the sheer fact it should be a spike. I mean, the simple fact remains it is simply one of the hardest meteors to actually land without combos. No other character has this penalty.
-
On the subject of spikes however, is the third hit of his DED (The one that sends your opponent downwards) considered a spike? I remember asking this but not getting an answer.

 

[Scaremonger]

Brim, a spike that did as much Knockback as Roy's dair would be kind of imbalanced. It'd kill everyone at like 0%. And if you reduced the damage/kb, it wouldn't be as effective as a combo move, which is what it's intended to be. Killing with dair is only for flashiness.

 

[Brim]

Brim, a spike that did as much Knockback as Roy's dair would be kind of imbalanced. It'd kill everyone at like 0%. And if you reduced the damage/kb, it wouldn't be as effective as a combo move, which is what it's intended to be. Killing with dair is only for flashiness.

Also, I meant to add-in that at least the spot where you need to hit for the meteor to actually work should be changed to work similarly to Marth's. A good example of a meteor that hits plenty hard, and I believe as long as it connects you can't sour-spot it: Ganon's. So, that was my bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Brim, a spike that did as much Knockback as Roy's dair would be kind of imbalanced. It'd kill everyone at like 0%. And if you reduced the damage/kb, it wouldn't be as effective as a combo move, which is what it's intended to be. Killing with dair is only for flashiness.

Didn't consider this, thanks.

Consider me converted. The sweetspot is still pretty stupid though. I can hit it pretty consistently, but I don't see why it shouldn't extend at least as far in front of Roy as it does behind him. :/

 

[Kally Wally]

On the subject of spikes however, is the third hit of his DED (The one that sends your opponent downwards) considered a spike? I remember asking this but not getting an answer.

DED xx^ is a meteor.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Any reason for *that* to not be a spike? :<

 

[Kally Wally]

Any reason for it to be a spike?

Honestly, other Roy mains astonish me sometimes. Wah wah why don't we get a spike, Marth gets one, yeah, Marth also doesn't have more ****ing kill moves than he knows what to do with. Roy is already a beatstick with tons of versatile, accessible power - EZ forward smash, crazy strong back air, 4 frame down smash kills vertically, Flare Blade is huge, hell even forward tilt kills moderately well. Instead of asking why a meteor isn't a spike, ask instead why a meteor should be a spike.

If an attack can perform it's intended function as a meteor, it has no reason to be a spike. The intended purpose of Roy's meteors are to be combo pieces, which they can do just fine as they are.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Honestly, other Roy mains astonish me sometimes. Wah wah why don't we get a spike, Marth gets one.

Eh, I think we're just barely worse than Marth overall. Giving Roy another kill option would hardly make him OP.

I'm not exactly hot and bothered about the issue either way.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Dsmash hits frame 6 btw.

Also Roy's dair being a meteor makes it easier to combo with than if it was a spike. Meteors have to have more downward angles, spikes have to have more outward angles. The more outward the angle the farther away horizontally you get sent, especially with good DI. Meteors can't send very far in either direction even with good DI. This same property also means dair can kill grounded opponents off the top earlier.

 

[Scaremonger]

Eh, I think we're just barely worse than Marth overall.

Roy is definitely better than Marth in this game. Dunno why so many people don't realize this. Marth always kills at either 70%, or 170%. Roy, on the other hand, kills at 110% every single time because of bair and his other good, reliable kill moves. Marth was also really good in Melee because he was one of the best characters at gimping/edgeguarding. There are entire combo videos of M2K edgeguards. Unfortunately, recoveries are pretty much globally better, so kills tend to lean towards the higher percent side, and he also no longer has range superiority over every character in the game, which are both sort of indirect nerfs to him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's fair, but Marth's spacing is significantly better, and his Ken combo is WAY better - especially against the ludicrous recoveries in this game. It's also pretty easy for him to throw into tipper most of the time.

You could be right in any case.

 

[Mr.Random]

Roy is better AND cooler. Bcuz phire

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

At the very least in PM, the sweetspot's easier to use than in Melee, in which was harder to hit with than Jigglypuff's rest.

 

[Kirito-]

Marth > Roy.

Roy needs to be developed more before he can compare to Marth. Sethlon is the only top tier Roy atm.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, I'm really skeptical of the claim that Roy is better because of his increased # of kill moves. It's basically irrelevant because Marth's ken combo is 1000 times better and he has a guaranteed fthrow->tip against pretty much the entire cast, whereas all Roy's setups are much shorter range, and don't work past 100% or so.

 

[Scaremonger]

...Marth's setup's don't work past like 70, so I dunno what you're talking about, lol. You're not going to FThrow tipper someone at 100%. And do you legitimately believe that ken combo is what makes Marth a good character, or am I missing something?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It certainly doesn't hurt in PM's floaty-dominated meta. The Ken combo is far better in PM both because of that, and because of the overall improved recoveries that don't help against it in the least.

You're not going to FThrow tipper someone at 100%.

Whatever you say, dude.

 

[Scaremonger]

Why does everyone say that PM is so floaty? Regular falling speeds off of shorthops and while comboing are actually pretty much insignificantly different when you take averages across the board. Lots of good fastfallers in this game; Wolf is the same falling speed as Falco, and Lucas falls as fast as Falcon. Terminal velocities are actually faster in PM than Melee's S and A tier, but there's only a difference of about .01 units and that's pretty much irrelevant anyway.

Whatever you say, dude.

If you get tippered off of an fthrow at 100%, then you have **** DI, lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why does everyone say that PM is so floaty? Regular falling speeds off of shorthops and while comboing are actually pretty much insignificantly different when you take averages across the board.

It'll vary by local meta. Ours is mostly floaty, and has lots of characters with very good recoveries. Mewtwo, notably, pretty much won't die to anything but a spike or a Fox upsmash.

If you get tippered off of an fthrow at 100%, then you have **** DI, lol.

Maybe. I'll test in the lab later.

 

[Scaremonger]

It'll vary by local meta. Ours is mostly floaty, and has lots of characters with very good recoveries. Mewtwo, notably, pretty much won't die to anything but a spike or a Fox upsmash.

I mean Mewtwo basically has the same fallspeed onstage as Marth. And you shouldn't be trying to gimp mewtwo, lol, it's completely never ever going to work.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It does work if you just kill him off the bottom on stages with high floors like PS2, or if M2 has a lot of damage on him, or if you Ken him out of his jump.

You seem to be underestimating exactly how much kill power Marth's dair has.

 

[Scaremonger]

You seem to be underestimating exactly how much kill power Marth's dair has.

I know it's powerful, but it's not some amazingly reliable super guaranteed kill setup. Most good players are not going to get ken combo'd very often at all.

 

[Kirito-]

...Marth's setup's don't work past like 70, so I dunno what you're talking about, lol. You're not going to FThrow tipper someone at 100%. And do you legitimately believe that ken combo is what makes Marth a good character, or am I missing something?

If you seriously think that all Marth has are Fthrow tippers and Ken combo then it's not wonder you think so poorly of Marth. Marth has one of, if not THE best grab game. Uthrow leads to juggles which wrack up serious damage, Fthrow leads to tech chases and so does Dthrow, and Bthrow leads to bair.

Fthrow tech chase Fsmash works at an %, Bthrow tech chase Fsmash works at an %, and it's not that hard to do with the proper read. If you've been playing Marth for a long time, you'd know the exact distance you need to stand to get a tipper, in fact, it was one of the first things I learned as a Marth main. Floaties don't get tech chased by Fthrow/Bthrow since they can act out before they hit the ground at about 70% (depends on DI, they have to DI up iirc) but Bthrow pivot Fsmash is a DI mix up which you can get tippers off of on any unsuspecting opponents.

Ftilt, Utilt, and Dtilt in neutral can stuff almost any approach your opponent tries.

Marth is also the king of juggling. He destroys fast fallers all the way down to about Roy's weight with SHFFL Uair juggles. There is no way Roy can get down once Marth starts to juggle unless the Marth messes up, or Roy does a well timed counter (which is risky in of itself).

tl;dr
Marth has more to his game then Fthrow Fsmash, and ken combo. A short read through the Marth discussions will show you just how much killing potential this character has.

Why does everyone say that PM is so floaty? Regular falling speeds off of shorthops and while comboing are actually pretty much insignificantly different when you take averages across the board. Lots of good fastfallers in this game; Wolf is the same falling speed as Falco, and Lucas falls as fast as Falcon. Terminal velocities are actually faster in PM than Melee's S and A tier, but there's only a difference of about .01 units and that's pretty much irrelevant anyway.

Actually, Wolf is slightly heavier than Falco, but it's not that big of a difference so yeah. Just so you know, not trying to nitpick.

 

[Scaremonger]

If you seriously think that all Marth has are Fthrow tippers and Ken combo then it's not wonder you think so poorly of Marth.

lol, I'm not completely stupid, I'm aware that Marth has more setups than that. I mentioned those two specifically because those are two setups that Odds brought up. Yes, I know that he has more setups. However, any good Marth player worth his salt, which is something you seem to think of yourself as, should know about "Marth percent", which is the percents after 70 where his most reliable kill setups stop working, and before 170 which is where pretty much everything he has will kill you so he doesn't really need setups anymore. And I don't think poorly of Marth, I just think Roy is better against this game's roster.

Actually, Wolf is slightly heavier than Falco, but it's not that big of a difference so yeah. Just so you know, not trying to nitpick.

I am fully aware of Wolf's weight, but that has nothing to do with fall speed. Wolf does have a terminal velocity that's about .1 units faster than Falco's, but as a Marth main, you should know that terminal velocities are pretty much irrelevant for what a character's "fall speed" is. If you drop down from the side platform of Yoshi's Story, both Wolf and Falco take 19 frames to hit the floor. That method of testing is a lot more effective at determining how a character falls off of a shorthop or while being combo'd; a lot of characters' terminal velocities are pretty irrelevant when it comes to onstage physics (i.e. Wario or Marth).

 

[Frost | Odds]

And I don't think poorly of Marth, I just think Roy is better against this game's roster.

You may be right with regards to your local meta, though I think it's highly unlikely if that includes any floaty characters, space animals, diddies, or metaknights.

 

[Scaremonger]

You may be right with regards to your local meta, though I think it's highly unlikely if that includes any floaty characters, space animals, diddies, or metaknights.

I live in DFW, so take what you want from that. Our 10 best PM players are probably Sethlon, Awestin, Oracle, Denti, Lunchables, Infinity, Aerolink, Dakpo, Luck, and Strawhat, so Roy, Ness, Lucas/Zard/Wolf, Ivy, TLink, MK, Link, GW, Diddy, and Falcon.

And I'm not talking about local meta, I'm talking about in general. I don't base my opinions on how good characters are on anecdotal evidence.

 

[Kirito-]

lol, I'm not completely stupid, I'm aware that Marth has more setups than that. I mentioned those two specifically because those are two setups that Odds brought up. Yes, I know that he has more setups. However, any good Marth player worth his salt, which is something you seem to think of yourself as, should know about "Marth percent", which is the percents after 70 where his most reliable kill setups stop working, and before 170 which is where pretty much everything he has will kill you so he doesn't really need setups anymore. And I don't think poorly of Marth, I just think Roy is better against this game's roster.

Sure, the reliable kill set ups stop working at about 70%, but that is one of the things you need to adapt to as a Marth main. Fthrow tech chases work on almost any percent.

About your last comment, I beg to differ. I find that Marth has his good MU and Roy has his, but Marth has less bad or disadvantageous MU.

I just feel that Roy's metagame needs more time to develop and we need to see more top tier Roys before we start placing him as a high tier.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I live in DFW, so take what you want from that. Our 10 best PM players are probably Sethlon...

That might explain some of the pro-roy bias. :<

I love watching the videos from your region. There's a lot of seriously great players there.