Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Reaver197]

So, Brawl = GNTEX?

And I also would like to see this Sirlin article. As far as I can tell, he never wrote an article that dealt with what specifically made a game competitive or not. I could be wrong though, and would love to see it anyway.

And considering the use of a dangerous option is only viable if the pay off is worth setting up for it (if it's possible to set up for it in any consistent, controlled manner). I can't say Brawl handles that too well.

 

[SiegKnight]

Heh, ^^; its what it says on the tin. Unequal rock paper scissors, for the article. And yeah, I understand such worries, I just don't think it'll remain that way forever. Its easy to control any engine with experience and knowledge of the way character hitboxes work.

Sirlin has a crap load of competetive game tutorials for multi player balancing. He's a guy who assumes everyone has the budget to make a game, so they're not too hard to find floating around.

 

[DRaGZ]

This topic is really amusing.

 

[Aesir]

the biggest thing is, camping is to good, being aggressive isn't that good.

Most legit combos are like 2 hits, playing brawl is like playing a luigi ditto, or just playing against luigi in general.

Btw No one likes playing against luigi, No one.

Find me one person I dare you.

 

[SiegKnight]

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/rock-paper-scissors/

ah, here we are

how this is relevant is that in any fighting game, character specific exploits become the most powerful of the rock paper scissors triad. its unequal, remember? this is why broken games seem more fun or balanced. they are, you just don't know it yet. having one option thats ridicolously powerful and having the rest as just tide-overs is what makes a game fun.

thats why I bring sf3 into question. Urien and Yun have super arts with destructive traps for corner or knockdown or upon hit confirm depending on what character of the two you mean. No doubt they're the most fun and effective characters because of it. Crap characters in fighters or bad to play ones have fewer options, and have to rely on chipping away with basic spacing.

Ibuki has no specific moves and thus playing her feels like playing any game, you can compare it even to fps for all I daaamn well care. Any game deals with aspects of distance, spacing and accuracy. Playing her is a turtle, space and damage chip game. Her low stamina and lack of dangerous risk/reward setups make her alot like playing brawl, an fps where players are homogenized, or... anything really. When a character has a dangerous setup, they become good and make the game FUN. Playing her is alot like playing brawl... In its CURRENT state. Bare bones.

In essence maybe Melee will be proven to be LESS deep, if more character specific abusive things appear in Brawl. Melee will always have the better universal system, but characters are so diverse this time and the physics are so prohibitive, yet glitches are coming out so fast.

now, since most of these dominant options are not discovered yet, now you know why Brawl sucks and is... 'rely on chipping away with basic spacing...'

All connects a bit better now?

 

[NES n00b]

the biggest thing is, camping is to good, being aggressive isn't that good.

Most legit combos are like 2 hits, playing brawl is like playing a luigi ditto, or just playing against luigi in general.

Btw No one likes playing against luigi, No one.

Find me one person I dare you.

I do as Falcon. Sue me. lol The difference is Falcon can actually combo Luigi in Melee. I can't truly combo as well as I can combo with Falcon against Luigi in brawl with anyone against anyone cause of stupid hit stun and physics.

 

[Yuna]

How does that in any way prove anything of what you're saying here?

"There might be hidden techs!" - This article proves it!

 

[Reaver197]

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/rock-paper-scissors/

ah, here we are

Yeah, I actually managed, to find it, but thank you for bringing it to my attention. I've only recently started to read his articles (often very slowly due to work, urgh).

But, yeah, I agree that at the core of all games capable of competition is essentially an RPS battle. However, that does not necessarily mean that the game will be conducive to reach a higher level of competitive play, like the Dead or Alive series. It strikes me that not only does the metaphorical rock, paper, and scissor needs to all be viable and effective at some point or level, but also in their implementation, whether I can use them aggressively or defensively.

Also, I'd like to point out that I don't think in any of the Smash games we took "control" of the physics engine. We took advantage of whatever quirks came of it, but never could force it or changed how it worked. For Brawl, to get the level of competition I think you're trying to tell us about, we would really need to break how the physics engine works (among other things), something that didn't happen nor was necessary in Melee or 64.

 

[SiegKnight]

Yuna - read my edited post. Stop being condensencing too. I want an even debate and the benefit of the doubt if you want me to listen to your replies, which you obviously do since you didn't ignore me the second I came in.

Treat fellow players with the same respect you give yourself and listen with an open ear. I already said I agree the hit stun and floaty physics make the unequal risk/reward factor a little more unlikely than usual, but also why its not the be all and end all.

It will never be at all like melee. It might be deeper, even, though.

and yes, I know it was never NECCESARY in melee. thats why I say it'll never be the same. Melee didn't need you to. Drill shine and a few other tricks and chaingrabs stand out as things to force people in, so did waveshine as an unequal high. But you didn't need them to have competetive fun.

Unfortunately you do in brawl, and in brawl theres more chance of character specific abuse, as research so far has proven at an alarming rate and is continuing to. Brawl has none of the melee crap to fall back on

Its very easy to write it off, but give it a chance, ffs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

the biggest thing is, camping is to good, being aggressive isn't that good.

Most legit combos are like 2 hits, playing brawl is like playing a luigi ditto, or just playing against luigi in general.

Btw No one likes playing against luigi, No one.

Find me one person I dare you.

I do. Take THAT! Granted, it has to be Melee Luigi.

Edit:

Treat fellow players with the same respect you give yourself.

Yuna openly admitted he was a she and made vaguely homo-erotic conversation with me. He can be as disrespectful as he wants

 

[Yuna]

Why are you editing old posts beyond recognition after new posts have been posted? Just post new posts so people don't have to be psychic and assume you've edited your old ones and go back and re-read them.

 

[SiegKnight]

You're obviously psychic since you think you know what brawl will be in a few years time. But anyway, go bloody read it. You asked for an explanation as to why the article fits in with my explanation, theres your answer.

I will say this, if I'm allowed to make another vs fighter analogy; ST players hate 3S players. The fact that hit stun in 3S is also less and the sprite detection is so accurate promotes lack of combos, and the damage scaling is so high that health destroyers are rare, so is spatial control. In fact, 3S is very 'campy' in comparison. 3S shown no tricks for its first few years too, and when they came out, they were suprisingly character specific.

I don't think it may be the same. But if character tricks come out and other abusive options do, which heighten your strategic planning capability, I ask you all to eat your words.

He can be as disrespectful as he wants

Yeah... No. This is why SRK is cooler than here. The ammount of ***otry being promoted among the elitists here is scary high. Regardless of new status or not, if you make a smart post there, you'll be taken note of as a serious person.

 

[Reaver197]

I can see what you mean about Brawl possibly having more depth than Melee by virtue of its diverse character set and abilities. However, it seems to me that the general mechanics of Brawl doesn't really allow all the character's unique abilities to be shown to their full potential. While it is very cool, and very complex, that Brawl might have an intricate character-based approach to it, I don't think there are any individual, character-based techniques that will really effectively counter the anti-competitiveness of Brawl's more general mechanics.

Plus, if certain characters really did manage to break from the game's core mechanics, it could create a very skewed game, were some characters can literally break free of the game's inhibiting mechanics, but others have to abide by it.

At least, I think that was one of the points you were trying to make. I might be mistaken.

 

[Yuna]

You're obviously psychic since you think you know what brawl will be in a few years time. But anyway, go bloody read it. You asked for an explanation as to why the article fits in with my explanation, theres your answer.

And so obviously are you. You're speaking as if the game engine will be broken.

I don't think it may be the same. But if character tricks come out and other abusive options do, which heighten your strategic planning capability, I ask you all to eat your words.

That's one huge "if".

Yeah... No. This is why SRK is cooler than here. The ammount of ***otry being promoted among the elitists here is scary high. Regardless of new status or not, if you make a smart post there, you'll be taken note of as a serious person.

That's rich coming from you... and SRK. We're not promoting elitism or biggotry. The only thing we oppose here on Smashboards is stupidity... which certain people have in spades.

And at least we're not having problems deciding whether items should be on or whether or not Spear Pillar should be banned or a counterpick.

 

[SiegKnight]

I can see what you mean about Brawl possibly having more depth than Melee by virtue of its diverse character set and abilities. However, it seems to me that the general mechanics of Brawl doesn't really allow all the character's unique abilities to be shown to their full potential. While it is very cool, and very complex, that Brawl might have an intricate character-based approach to it, I don't think there are any individual, character-based techniques that will really effectively counter the anti-competitiveness of Brawl's more general mechanics.

Plus, if certain characters really did manage to break from the game's core mechanics, it could create a very skewed game, were some characters can literally break free of the game's inhibiting mechanics, but others have to abide by it.

At least, I think that was one of the points you were trying to make. I might be mistaken.

You have it down pact and to the very tee, and you also have the best counter argument for it I could probably imagine from my theory. Yes, alot of characters may have to abide it, not everyone will be at the top or usable. Brawls current balance is a farce, or will be, likely, but I'll welcome it if not. You show spades more observation than I've seen out of Yuna, even when she's not pussying out of arguments.

I don't know if the physics will allow for it, fingers crossed though. No one can tell, and stuff is coming out as it is. Dedede and IC chain grabs horrify me. Hell, Zsuitsamus' two d smash -> up grab is already pretty dangerous to centre your game around, and I wonder if its possible to make guarantied air combos via making them account for possible airdodges, so that they techchase in between the gap of airdodges for guarantied damage.

I'm just theorizing, but likely if it does break itself and become amazing, it won't be because of anything I can foresee or tell you here, really. If you can understand the possibility of it, I will accept an opinion of belief that melee will always be better than brawl from you, as it shows you're not ignorant at least.

I still think these arguments are useless, troll bait and should stop.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yeah... No. This is why SRK is cooler than here. The ammount of ***otry being promoted among the elitists here is scary high. Regardless of new status or not, if you make a smart post there, you'll be taken note of as a serious person.

lol. This may be the first time I've heard ***otry, Elitists and SRK at the same time without all three being related.

 

[SiegKnight]

SRK 'elitists' generally joke around. You'd be suprised how many of us actually are capable of reasoning with you for free. Don't forget its a board for all sorts of sf players. If you get elitists and fuedists among good players who'd sign up inevitably due to their fandom of competetive play, well, sorry, ignore them. If anyone generally reasonable sides with them, its just out of respect for their skills, and its likely playful anyway.

You'll rarely see them actually heated up. Half of them are bloody city boys anyway, the type who're likely too stoned at their comp to actually care. Even their SWF insults are generally playful. If you reason with them, the more prominent members step forward to listen. But they're also tied to their own reason, god forbid any self respecting person does that.

The idiots are a result of it being a board for so many fighting game fans its not funny. Not all of us are specifically 'SRKers.' People like Roshihikari come to troll third strike with hilarious crap all the time and they laugh at it, and at least our idiots are competetive idiots. Half of the idiots here can't tie their own shoelace and are general smash fans, not even competetive ones. For gods sakes. Some of them would prefer SSE to actually learning the game.

But this is off topic.

 

[Reaver197]

You have it down pact and to the very tee, and you also have the best counter argument for it I could probably imagine from my theory. Yes, alot of characters may have to abide it, not everyone will be at the top or usable. Brawls current balance is a farce, or will be, likely, but I'll welcome it if not.

I don't know if the physics will allow for it, fingers crossed though. No one can tell, and stuff is coming out as it is. Dedede and IC chain grabs horrify me. Hell, Zsuitsamus' two d smash -> up grab is already pretty dangerous to centre your game around, and I wonder if its possible to make guarantied air combos via making them account for possible airdodges, so that they techchase in between the gap of airdodges for guarantied damage.

I'm just theorizing, but likely if it does break itself and become amazing, it won't be because of anything I can foresee or tell you here, really.

Yeah. ZSS up-B also makes for some awesome tech-chasing in a game that otherwise wouldn't let happen very often, if at all. I'm glad the IC's got something to add some fire behind them, if only Falcon can follow suit... : (

I guess you can say I've got some natural bias against Brawl for how my favorite character turned out, but I try to iron it out as much as I can (whether or I not I actually can, I can't really tell).

But, yeah, I can see that Brawl can have a lot of depth in theory, but I think Nintendo did a very good job polishing and programming Brawl, so I don't really know how far or effective we can get with trying to break down the mechanics to allow something freer.

 

[Aesir]

Reasoning with us? LOL thats rich, sorry but I've been on the receiving end of their elitism many times, playful? yeah right.

I gave up after a while and ignored their obvious ignorance of our community. The fact that you take brawl tact discussion as a basis for how our community functions is laughable at best. You can call what I just said elitist but it's true.

Heres a pretty good example;

makes a valid case why melee's current rule set is good and not stupid or whatever the person was arguing at the time.

SRKer sais "who cares it's just a 10 year old party game anyway"

Tries again to make a case as to why it's an indepth game.

gets neg repped and I get some 4chan insult thrown at me.

Sooo this is reason? I'm sure there are a few who aren't like that but they're to few and far. Pretty funny if you think about it because you run into the same **** on smashboards. Which is why it's my firm belief both communities hate each other because they're a lot a like, so in essence they're both self hating entities.

 

[DRaGZ]

Just wanted to point something out:

http://www.allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=295

This is what Melee vs. Brawl arguments look like to everyone not emotionally vested in their arguments right now. It's just ridiculous.

EDIT: The main point I want to emphasize, which is not in that link, is that all of your opinions, however nuanced they may or may not be, are being interpreted by extremes by anyone who has not been following this whole thread (i.e., 90% of the people who read this). All it does it create two-sided controversy and argument that does nothing to help either Melee or Brawl. It's all just stupid talk.

 

[SiegKnight]

Yeah. ZSS up-B also makes for some awesome tech-chasing in a game that otherwise wouldn't let happen very often, if at all. I'm glad the IC's got something to add some fire behind them, if only Falcon can follow suit... : (

I guess you can say I've got some natural bias against Brawl for how my favorite character turned out, but I try to iron it out as much as I can (whether or I not I actually can, I can't really tell).

But, yeah, I can see that Brawl can have a lot of depth in theory, but I think Nintendo did a very good job polishing and programming Brawl, so I don't really know how far or effective we can get with trying to break down the mechanics to allow something freer.

zsuitsamus' up b is the sex.

Yeah, but the most broken games ever have to start somewhere. Alot of the most broken crap is so out of the blue and in such unexpected places. I'm actually suprised WD'ing in melee wasn't discovered very very early, its actually obvious as far as game transforming mechanics go.

nintendo did their best on the surface; and well, we're scratching the surface as it is.

dunno how far it'll get. I don't particularly like Smash, I browse these boards for a good laugh when the noobs come in totally clueless to competitive smash or gaming in general, and then you guys even notice their posts as accountable. I bring srk up as they'd just turn their nose to it, not even respond.

But its up to you guys to push it. They don't even have to broken mechanics, just creativeuse of mechanics that're there which present a huge advantage when abused or set up for consistently.

Card games, strategy games, etc, all work off of the same ****. Nintendo doesn't know what makes a competitive game, which is unequal risk/reward and rps. They thought the techniques in it were all that needed to be fixed. Nono, you all have it wrong; uneven moves and setups do. Its up to you to find the uneven grounds and sit on them like a stubborn ***** till whoever you're playing is dead or adapts to it. This may take years of improvising and strategic exploration, and understanding of the movesets.

In a way, this is the first time the smash community has gotten a sequel. Melee came out so fast after 64. And its the first time its had a drastic direction change - from melee - and a drastic bug fix - from 64, which had broken crap pouring from all. Brawl came out shhhitloads~? Of time after when both of the previous games are fully mature.

Course there'll be panic and lulz at first.

 

[SiegKnight]

Reasoning with us? LOL thats rich, sorry but I've been on the receiving end of their elitism many times, playful? yeah right.

I gave up after a while and ignored their obvious ignorance of our community. The fact that you take brawl tact discussion as a basis for how our community functions is laughable at best. You can call what I just said elitist but it's true.

Heres a pretty good example;

makes a valid case why melee's current rule set is good and not stupid or whatever the person was arguing at the time.

SRKer sais "who cares it's just a 10 year old party game anyway"

Tries again to make a case as to why it's an indepth game.

gets neg repped and I get some 4chan insult thrown at me.

Sooo this is reason? I'm sure there are a few who aren't like that but they're to few and far. Pretty funny if you think about it because you run into the same **** on smashboards. Which is why it's my firm belief both communities hate each other because they're a lot a like, so in essence they're both self hating entities.

naw, I said brawl tact discussion is where I like viewing most, as I find it cool and helpful, unlike here.

also, sorry about your srk experiences. Neg rep is common, mines low as all heeelll thar. But like, this is you taking it too serious. a 4chan insult and neg rep? oh noessss. you're in trouble.

If you were giving out logical reason to some of the better members of the community, they'd listen.

Just wanted to point something out:

http://www.allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=295

This is what Melee vs. Brawl arguments look like to everyone not emotionally vested in their arguments right now. It's just ridiculous.

EDIT: The main point I want to emphasize, which is not in that link, is that all of your opinions, however nuanced they may or may not be, are being interpreted by extremes by anyone who has not been following this whole thread (i.e., 90% of the people who read this). All it does it create two-sided controversy and argument that does nothing to help either Melee or Brawl. It's all just stupid talk.

best read ever. Who's that post writer? You or like, who?

 

[SiegKnight]

accidental triple post, ignore

 

[Aesir]

EDIT: The main point I want to emphasize, which is not in that link, is that all of your opinions, however nuanced they may or may not be, are being interpreted by extremes by anyone who has not been following this whole thread (i.e., 90% of the people who read this). All it does it create two-sided controversy and argument that does nothing to help either Melee or Brawl. It's all just stupid talk.

I'm honestly sick of the debate...>_>

I find brawl competitive and in depth, it's about as in depth as the atlantic ocean, However melee is about as in depth as The Mariana Trench.

For those for you who don't know what that is.

Brawl is a inch, melee is a yard.

 

[DRaGZ]

It's also funny how this topic degenerated so quickly from what Gimpy was trying to say and turned into another Melee vs. Brawl argument.

 

[Yuna]

The idiots are a result of it being a board for so many fighting game fans its not funny. Not all of us are specifically 'SRKers.' People like Roshihikari come to troll third strike with hilarious crap all the time and they laugh at it, and at least our idiots are competetive idiots. Half of the idiots here can't tie their own shoelace and are general smash fans, not even competetive ones. For gods sakes. Some of them would prefer SSE to actually learning the game.

But this is off topic.

And we denied hating them when? I hate idiots of all races, creed and colors (and sexualities, sexes, etc., etc., etc.)

 

[thumbswayup]

Brawl fits in both but w/e.

I'll agree with the bold statement once I play you again and see how much you have improved. If I beat your sonic again with that character that I don't know how to use at all, you'll have some explaining to do.

If this happens I'll quit both Brawl and Melee forever.

 

[Dime]

I really don’t want to get into a debate about whether Smashboarders are elitists or not because most people here are open and friendly. Sometimes though, I get the impression that more than a few members here look down at members with a 08 join date.

“I get the impression that because I am new to smash and have less knowledge than others that I cannot try to learn by taking part in intelligent conversation. I have this funny feeling that some people wish newer members like me would just shut up and leave smashboards.” – Dime 2008

 

[thumbswayup]

Most people here don't look down on someone just because of their join date. It's when they try to talk **** about something you know nothing about that pisses us off. It's then that we bash them and call them noobs because clearly, from their idiotic posts, that's what they are.

So anyone with an 08 join date is more than welcome to participate in an intellectual discussion on Brawl and Melee. However, the moment this person acts arrogant and condescending when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about, they are no longer welcome.

 

[Reaver197]

Unfortunately, I do think that people do put something by what your join date is, and use it as sort of a lens under which to view your posts, for negative or positive. I even find myself sometimes, inside my head, dismissing a lot of users by their join date, but usually if their posts only back up that first impression I get about them, which I unfortunately feel is correct with a lot of them.

It's just sort of irksome to have somebody who literally just joined Smashboards just because of Brawl, make a post about why they think Brawl is better than Melee, but then say they've never actually played Melee or took it to the level that it got to.

Personally, I really think we, as a community, should come to some resolution and take a clear, definite action on the whole Melee vs. Brawl debate. It's clearly enough of an issue that just letting time sift it out wouldn't be the best course, and without some clear resolution, Melee vs. Brawl threads will inevitably keep popping up. The question is, what can we do in that regard?

 

[Dime]

Yeah I try to stay away from the Melee vs Brawl debate because I never was a Melee player. I also shy away from technical discussion for that same reason. I do feel however that I can contribute to discussion on what competitive should mean and if brawl can be competitive. I have no competitive tournament experience but I have been competitive in other aspect of my life outside of video games. My knowledge of competition outside of smash should still be applicable to a competitive smash discussion.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

It's not that an 08 date makes me look down on someone, it's if that person proves their "noobness" with stupid posts, the join date provides additional evidence that they may not know what they're talking about. It's certainly not the first thing I look for, but sometimes, the negative judgement is appropriate.

Siegknight, I find it funny how you go out of your way to bash Yuna, one of the most logical voices in this thread. How can you call him a troll when it's you that's actually trolling the thread? You make some good points, but your ideas about the metagame are simply postulations about what might happen. You think we're gonna find something that'll expand the meta...

Are you absorbing the counterpoint? The physics system doesn't allow you to take advantage of much at all... Sure, maybe we'll find a broken move (metaknight's up+B), but even if we find a few, does it really make the game better? It'll reduce the cast of characters so sharply that it's to the point of ridiculousness. I also think that the lack of mobility will make it so that overpowered moves are waaay overpowered, since you can't counter them as quickly or space quickly/accurately.

At least in Melee, you could do well with anyone. Granted your best options are Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco but there's some amazing Pikas, Luigis, Ganons, Peaches, CFs, and hell even Mewtwos who are a serious threat. Knowledge and manipulation are so vital.

In Brawl, knowledge is important, but half the strategy seems almost like a Muay Thai strategy... trade hits and land the more damaging blow. Or spam. Idk... I suppose it's opinion but it makes more sense to be able to dance around an opponent than to sit there and trade smash attacks or arrow spam.

I really don't think we're gonna find anything that'll open up the game. If anything, we'll find things that close the lid even tighter.

 

[Avalon262]

If this happens I'll quit both Brawl and Melee forever.

When I first made that bet, you said there was no possible chance for me to win and if I did you would quit brawl/melee and yet you keep on playing. I doubt if I DO beat you again you'll keep your word. Its just more bragging rights for me and it might show you the game takes more skill then you think.

 

[thumbswayup]

When I first made that bet, you said there was no possible chance for me to win and if I did you would quit brawl/melee and yet you keep on playing. I doubt if I DO beat you again you'll keep your word. Its just more bragging rights for me and it might show you the game takes more skill then you think.

Ok, how about if you win, I'll throw my controller into the wall then break my copy of Melee along with my memory card. After that I'll set fire to my wii and feed my copy of Brawl to my dogs.

 

[Avalon262]

Ok, how about if you win, I'll throw my controller into the wall then break my copy of Melee along with my memory card. After that I'll set fire to my wii and feed my copy of Brawl to my dogs.

You and I both know you wouldn't do such a thing. Also, most likely our rematch will be held at my house and if you throw the controller at my wall you'll feel the wrath of my parents and a chunk of money will be coming out of your wallet.

Lets see how well you do at c3 this weekend. If you lose again in the first round, still think the game doesn't take much skill?

 

[thumbswayup]

Maybe the part about destroying melee and my memory card isn't true, but I'm not kidding about what I'll do to my wii and Brawl if you win.

We'll see about c3. I know for a fact Tim and I will **** in teams, but I don't know how I'll fare in singles. And good god, sonic NEVER wins tournies

 

[DarkRenji]

Please make a video of it, I want to see it.

 

[xizor98]

^^^ *to my previous post*

Its obvious Brawl focuses more on character specific junk than blanket techniques like Melee advocated...Dedede's chain grabs and Snake's strategic proxy space control are prime examples of this, as are some other pivot tricks and other things characters have that only *THEY* can use.

um, not to be captain obvious, but melee was pretty **** character specific in its own right, so there's no need to pretend that Brawl is unique in this regard. I'd even go so far as to argue that Brawl lacks the potential to be anywhere near as character specific as Melee, considering that the "superior" physics engine and longer hitstun its predecessor provided for a great deal more character specific abuses than I fear Brawl will ever be able to match.

But anyway, yeah. That's my 2 cents.

 

[SiegKnight]

I think trolling is trying to start an argument when its obvious the other person doesn't give a crap and you're just annoying them. Yuna does that plenty here. Sure she's logical, and consistent with her views, that I respect. But honestly threads like this belong in a melee discussion board; I hate to cite the bloody troll tome but its true here... Brawl, isn't melee, really.

I agree that character specific stuff is hard to advance, but that doesn't change that its more diverse than melee for the fact theres so many characters. Of course as the game is right now, we can't tell if it'll advance further. Our only lead is the lack of hitstun, and other such paralyzing move properties, but is that the be all and end all? Wait it out, at least one or two years if not a few more years. If not, go play one of the many new age fighters that stand along side brawl as revival attempts for the genre. Plenty are coming out. Or go play Melee. I'm very tempted to learn it just from discussions here.

I'm sorry if I came off as hostile; yes, the apology is earnest. And I do know what I'm on about. It isn't experience, but I'm a very technical person and from a young age I've always loved competetive gaming of all varieties.

I think a mod should close this thread or move it to melee discussion, and smashboards as a whole needs better moderation when threads repeat. Especially troll tastic ones. You are not helping new brawl players wanting to learn to compete by proving their points wrong before they've even got their hands dirty in a serious round of smash. You are not helping them compete by trying to reason with yourself in the open and think aloud about your belief Brawl will never be on the level of melee.

I'm not saying to shield the truth, more importantly though, we can't tell what Brawl will be; pretending you can and then making up convincing reason would tip alot of people, like me if I never heard of smash before, very much away from the idea of competetive Brawl. This is exactly the sort of stigma that turns me off of a competetive game. Yet, I really like Brawl. Not astoundingly so, but it does feel intense when the other guy knows what he's doing. Whether its a fighting game vet, someone who retired from melee but regged tourneys, or even a self righteous noob on a level with smashballs and bombs bouncing everywhere who you just want to disprove against all unequal odds that you have more skill in any field.

I like it not just as a party game, but a 1 v 1 fighter on the flatter stages with a little bit of 2 v 2 with team attack off, and very occaisionally - but never seriously, albiet still technically and competetively - some of the less one side decisive items (healers, duh.) or fs for the odd seasoning. I research matchups and love the tactical board here. As you can see, differing community or not, me and you guys are quite alike. If you put aside my differing background, lack of melee experience and my hostile first impression, the same core is inside me.

I won't deny I probably will love melee and, hay, maybe be tempted to shelf brawl if I tried it. That 3 part tutorial vid that infected youtube is incredibly immense in terms of awesome. If third strike players organized tutorials and stuff in such an interesting way I'd be very happy, and the dynamic - not as dynamic as brawl because its less floaty, but far more concrete and practical - prediction of DI juggles makes my mouth water. Especially that falcon example in the first of the three parts.

But I still think Brawl'd be fun to me - and I don't mean casually as I don't play it like that much, except for sse, which is a guilty pleasure of mine as I love streets of rage and similar games. I know its no reflection of Brawl proper. I still think it isn't developed at all. Developed doesn't particularly have to be too different. It just means you're absolutely sure everything is weeded out. Patience. Or at least stop bloody trolling. Its a bloody eyesore. Get me my biscuits and daaamn tea you- kidding.

Also, Yuna? Yeah, point taken. That makes sense. Suprised you haven't attempted deeper replies though, argumentative - read tro... Yeah... - as you seem to be on Brawl general discussion.

 

[DYC]

Yuna is a guy.