San Diego Lovin' - Triweekly XXXII - December 1st

[Engdrew]

But no one actually grabs lol. I'm saying even if you pillar perfectly, there's always a frame window (a rather large one actually. something like 9 or so frames), where there is no shield stun and you can do something oos. It's actually really dangerous to keep pillaring someone's shield. Jesse generally just comes in with a nair shine nair and leaves, which is a lot smarter and safer.

Eric is all talk and no play. Y U NO PLAY?????????

 

[ycz12]

I like to up-B out of shield against pillaring,

as Jigglypuff

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

Man, I wasn't even trying to say that Falco and Fox aren't broken. They're definitely broken sometimes, but I just find space animal shield pressure/comboing really entertaining and more exciting than the staid grab-and-throw strategy that pretty much dominates the game. Part of what makes it exciting to me is the fact that a player has to actively move their character and rapidly string together multiple attacks to reach the goal that isn't even guaranteed after all the effort.

Also, Marth and Falcon might struggle with shield pressure, but I don't think Falco, Fox, Shiek, Peach, Puff, or Samus struggle as much. That's why I don't really like playing against them. hahahahaha. =D

Essentially, I see pillaring as a really convoluted way of baiting my opponent to do something stupid and what this means is really dependent on the character (I could really go into detail here, but it is late and I am tired). Suffice to it say that I think most successful shield pressuring is heavily reliant on reading your opponent well and this, in my opinion, isn't that easy to do. Especially if you're opponent is good.

Additionally, pretty much everything that Eric says.

Really though, Falco's lasers are what's 'gay'.

 

[onionchowder]

But no one actually grabs lol. I'm saying even if you pillar perfectly, there's always a frame window (a rather large one actually. something like 9 or so frames), where there is no shield stun and you can do something oos. It's actually really dangerous to keep pillaring someone's shield. Jesse generally just comes in with a nair shine nair and leaves, which is a lot smarter and safer.

Yeah, I was always under the impression that there are escapable gaps in pillaring, it was just hard to time doing anything besides buffering a roll, especially if the spacie mixes up the timing.

 

[Jun.]

When I get pillared, I start convulsing and the spacie player usually gets freaked out and messes up.

 

[Glöwworm]

Yank out their controller and pillar the controller IRL

That was a good read, Jesse. Post the more detailed version when you have time.

EDIT: Can someone tell me more about this road to apex tournament? So it's a tournament to prepare for Apex and it's held in SD?

 

[Jun.]

I believe its going to be a series of tournaments leading up to Apex West? And one of the tournies being in SD

 

[outofdashdwz]

Eric is all talk and no play. Y U NO PLAY?????????

I played a bit with Sunny today. First few games were terrible but it slowly came back. After like 2 hoursish, most of my chars were moving decently smoothly again haha. Especially my amazing Falco. I pillared Sunny all day

I just find space animal shield pressure/comboing really entertaining and more exciting than the staid grab-and-throw strategy that pretty much dominates the game. Part of what makes it exciting to me is the fact that a player has to actively move their character and rapidly string together multiple attacks to reach the goal that isn't even guaranteed after all the effort.

Haha while I do agree that the current higher metagame of non-spacies is centralized around grabs, throws, and follow ups, if you look at the very highest metagame of these characters, I don't feel that's true. While, say, Tope's game is very grab-centric and arguably one dimensional, m2k's Sheik does the most ridiculous combos in addition to his standard grab stuff and I think that's partly why he is the best at doing what he does. It's very exciting to watch. I may or may not be biased though

Essentially, I see pillaring as a really convoluted way of baiting my opponent to do something stupid and what this means is really dependent on the character (I could really go into detail here, but it is late and I am tired). Suffice to it say that I think most successful shield pressuring is heavily reliant on reading your opponent well and this, in my opinion, isn't that easy to do. Especially if you're opponent is good.

Additionally, pretty much everything that Eric says.

Really though, Falco's lasers are what's 'gay'.

I think that's a good way to put it. Pillaring is really only useful to find an opening to capitalize on, and that comes in many forms, ranging from a missed shield grab to even breaking their shield.

P.S. Jesse, if you want, I can teach you how to play Falco later.


P.P.S. I am making a comeback in the near future.


P.P.P.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FuXUARkRM

hehe

 

[HomeRunTom]

Eric's falco. I lol'd.

i'll beat it with my rusty as the titanic ganon.

Spoiler

jk

 

[Vouge]

Hey guys, just throwing this out there, ill be in the lodge with a setup from 2-6 today.

 

[SNG]

Who is going to be there at one?! (i leave at 3) maybe come back at cinco (5).

 

[Vouge]

Uh, im out, ill be there at 1.

 

[onionchowder]

I'll swing by for a few hours, probably around 2-5

 

[Jun.]

Taj is my hero.

alright i'm going to the lodge right now. Lets play.

 

[TheBOSS]

lets have a big smashfest this week! friday?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Andrew, I hope you realize that nobody pillars perfectly. LOL.

I hope you realize that most space animal players are under the ******** impression that they're the only ones who get punished for making mistakes, and that they're better players purely because they play space animals.

Practically speaking shield pressure works precisely because it will stuff most attempts to punish it, not to mention the fact that sometimes space animals will just get a shield stab before the other character even has a chance to punish. LOL at 9 being a "rather large" window when most of the fastest out-of-shield moves start in 6-8 frames, barring rare exceptions like Samus' Up B. There's a reason why the best space animal player in the history of the game bothers to shield pressure so well against other extremely good players.

 

[outofdashdwz]

Practically speaking shield pressure works precisely because it will stuff most attempts to punish it, not to mention the fact that sometimes space animals will just get a shield stab before the other character even has a chance to punish. LOL at 9 being a "rather large" window when most of the fastest out-of-shield moves start in 6-8 frames, barring rare exceptions like Samus' Up B. There's a reason why the best space animal player in the history of the game bothers to shield pressure so well against other extremely good players.

I actually looked it up again out of curiosity, and here is the data:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2712857#post2712857

So apparently it's actually 15-20 frames depending on how they pillar. I guess I think of things in terms of Sheik and Peach's 6 and 7 frame nairs, but to me, that is a very large margin of error I have to nair out haha.

No good Falco player ever shield pressures repeatedly against good players lol. Fox is a different matter though. You can't do anything about him.

 

[Sizzle]

Apparently it's my Smashboards anniversary lol. I'm leaving Japan in the next couple weeks, so I'm excited to get back into the Smash scene with you guys. I'll have a new place, so I will probably start hosting stuff near SDSU again for people in that area. Sounds like everyone is super active, so I gotta shake off the rust and jump back in. See you guys in the near future.

 

[LittleFumi]

lets have a big smashfest this week! friday?

i agree with boss

 

[AzN_Lep]

I'm down for a smashfest on Friday. Maybe a mini-tourney if we can get the turn out?

Speaking of which, I'm going to need some volunteers and help for the tournament coming up in late September. Running pools and what-not, nothing too complicated. In the meantime it'd be great if you guys could help hype up the event. Actually we could pretty much just start posting in that the TourneyPlay thread instead of here and that would do it. People flock to threads with new posts haha.

 

[SNG]

I hope you realize that most space animal players are under the ******** impression that they're the only ones who get punished for making mistakes, and that they're better players purely because they play space animals.

I don't really know who you are talking about here, Andrew. There aren't even any space animal players who consistently place in the top anymore besides Mango and I'm pretty sure he has justifiable reasons in thinking he's a better player. Also, it wasn't even his spacies that brought him to fame and the top.

Practically speaking shield pressure works precisely because it will stuff most attempts to punish it, not to mention the fact that sometimes space animals will just get a shield stab before the other character even has a chance to punish. LOL at 9 being a "rather large" window when most of the fastest out-of-shield moves start in 6-8 frames, barring rare exceptions like Samus' Up B. There's a reason why the best space animal player in the history of the game bothers to shield pressure so well against other extremely good players.

I'm pretty sure that you're upset about shield pressuring because of the way Jesse has been keeping you in your shield, but most characters have a way to counter the pillaring. For example, marth's wavedash OOS is good enough to get out of a pillar. His up-b/reverse up-b is also plenty fast enough to get out of the pillar and will even inflict damage and knock back to the spacie. It can potentially KO the spacie as well. By looking at this post, one can see that the dolphin slash provides invincibility from frames 1-5 and then has knockback on frames 5-10. Given that Eric's data is correct, 5 frames is MORE than enough to get out of a pillar.

Also, if pillaring is so effective and easy to do, you would see lots of kids just practicing in their room and getting first place at every tournament. That doesn't happen though, obviously.

 

[Alex Strife]

REGISTRATION IS UP PLEASE REGISTER AT http://apexsmash.com/

 

[Jun.]

Hey Pat I'll help you run the tournament. I realize I've never worked on the other side as a TO before and it seems very interesting. If need be, I'll also look into having a very legit and thorough streaming setup.

Some random points:
- SF4 / Marvel would run the smoothest and will have the biggest turnout if you have SD's Box Arena come in and either co-host or just help run it. They are very good at what they do (take a look at wgf sf4). Not sure if Alex Strife wants to split the attention of the tournament but just informing you guys of a great option we have.

- If we put our club's name on this, as Pat was asking me, we should be able to get some money we can use for basically anything. I'm in a club (DVC) that just received $19,000 from the school to run Let's Bounce so I can ask them exactly how they managed to get the money.

 

[Alex Strife]

- SF4 / Marvel would run the smoothest and will have the biggest turnout if you have SD's Box Arena come in and either co-host or just help run it. They are very good at what they do (take a look at wgf sf4). Not sure if Alex Strife wants to split the attention of the tournament but just informing you guys of a great option we have.

It wont bother me cause in reality they wont know its an Apex qualifier nor, to be honest, they will care. More people = more hype so go for it.

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

I hope you realize that most space animal players are under the ******** impression that they're the only ones who get punished for making mistakes, and that they're better players purely because they play space animals.

I don't think it's so much that they think they're the only ones who get punished for making mistakes, it's just that they often do make mistakes because of the precision necessary to effectively pillar and because of the risk involved in actually approaching the opponent. Also, effective pillaring doesn't even guarantee anything. I don't know how many times I've lost a stock or a game because of shine out of shield or a smart reaction or stupid *** Peach stuff. Oh, and don't even get me started on Ice Climbers. Additionally, space animals and fast fallers in general are combo food. Being vulnerable for any amount of time sucks.

This discussion reminds me of an exchange I had with Pat about two weeks ago or something. I asked him who he thinks would be the 'best' characters if the game hadn't advanced beyond its basic mechanics. He said he was pretty sure it would be Marth and Shiek. He reasoned it would be their grab range and throwing ability since they aren't completely reliant on advanced techs for these to be effective. Then Puff because she is silly and can practically fly with kicks.

Falco and Fox are essentially creatures of technical exploit. They wouldn't be that great without advanced techniques, especially L-canceling (although, thinking about it, Fox would still be kind of strong considering his speed and grab follow-ups). Falco's aggression would be gone and his lasers would be easily punished (yaaaaay!). Really, if you think about it, the universe, through perfect coincidence, allowed for the development of pillaring to correct for the lameness of shields and defensive play.



Switching topics, this tournament seems so exciting. Ahhhh. So excited.

 

[outofdashdwz]

or stupid *** Peach stuff.

It is a large trade off for you though. While you are constantly at extremely high risk, if you can land a solid hit on someone, that's pretty much at least 40% guaranteed, no matter the character, no matter the stage, no matter the DI. Not very many characters can do the same thing.

But it's okay. Everyone has something to complain about. Falco players complain about Marth, Marth players complain about Falco, Peach players complain about Fox, Zelda players complain about this game.

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

It is a large trade off for you though. While you are constantly at extremely high risk, if you can land a solid hit on someone, that's pretty much at least 40% guaranteed, no matter the character, no matter the stage, no matter the DI. Not very many characters can do the same thing.

But it's okay. Everyone has something to complain about. Falco players complain about Marth, Marth players complain about Falco, Peach players complain about Fox, Zelda players complain about this game.

I included that just for you.

 

[SNG]

Lol. At least 40 percent doesnt mean that much to Peach. She never dies. Unless you have crap DI like yu xiao ding. (eric)

 

[Jun.]

40% is half of Peach's stock vs Fox...

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

40% is half of Peach's stock vs Fox...

It's not even a third of a single Peach stock vs. Falco, excepting a lucky Dair or something like that or playing on Yoshi's.

 

[outofdashdwz]

lol @ fox player complaining about peach

 

[TheBOSS]

what time u guys wanna start on friday?

andddd we are playing at my pad right now if anyone wants to cruise come by!
760-277-3522

 

[Glöwworm]

I'm planning on getting there around 1PM

 

[AzN_Lep]

Hey Jun wanna be in charge of getting Box Arena? I think that sounds awesome, legit stuff is always good.

I'll be getting to the smashfest after work on friday (4 ish)

 

[Jun.]

Hey Jun wanna be in charge of getting Box Arena? I think that sounds awesome, legit stuff is always good.

I'll be getting to the smashfest after work on friday (4 ish)

No problem. Already e-mailed them and started to talk to Ilija about it. This is gonna be a huge event.

 

[SNG]

40% is half of Peach's stock vs Fox...

Lol. Eric was talking about falcos comboing ability though, not foxs.

 

[tacoz42]

This game's lame. I wanna learn 3S instead.

On a side note, @Pat: Will we have any rec class for fall quarter?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I actually looked it up again out of curiosity, and here is the data:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2712857#post2712857

So apparently it's actually 15-20 frames depending on how they pillar. I guess I think of things in terms of Sheik and Peach's 6 and 7 frame nairs, but to me, that is a very large margin of error I have to nair out haha.

No good Falco player ever shield pressures repeatedly against good players lol. Fox is a different matter though. You can't do anything about him.

So are you just ignoring the first section where there's only a 6 frame window? Which can be cut down to 5 if Falco uses nair instead of dair? That's enough to shut down shield grab and all aerials out of shield, leaving only invincible Up B's, which only a select few characters have. Shine to aerial IS a frame trap when it's done perfectly. Human error might make it difficult to do a true frame trap in practice, but unlike what some players would like to believe, human error goes both ways. Even if human error makes it theoretically punishable, now you're asking for near frame perfect play from the other character. Not to mention that last section where there's a 2 frame window.

I don't know if you know this, but it only takes two moves to make a frame trap. If you have three moves put together that couldn't be punished, then that would be...two frame traps. Shine to grab is pretty much a frame trap as well.

I'm pretty sure that you're upset about shield pressuring because of the way Jesse has been keeping you in your shield, but most characters have a way to counter the pillaring. For example, marth's wavedash OOS is good enough to get out of a pillar. His up-b/reverse up-b is also plenty fast enough to get out of the pillar and will even inflict damage and knock back to the spacie. It can potentially KO the spacie as well. By looking at this post, one can see that the dolphin slash provides invincibility from frames 1-5 and then has knockback on frames 5-10. Given that Eric's data is correct, 5 frames is MORE than enough to get out of a pillar.

Also, if pillaring is so effective and easy to do, you would see lots of kids just practicing in their room and getting first place at every tournament. That doesn't happen though, obviously.

Lol, I'm not upset just because I lose to Jesse. Characters don't actually bother me that much. I played Fox as a secondary for two years, and then Falco for a year after that, before coming to SD. This game is broken and gay, and I'm a lot better at accepting that than most people are. In fact, I like it that way.

What really bothers me are players and their attitudes -- especially space animal players who get a sense of entitlement over their tech skill, and cry about what hard lives they have, while complaining about other (often inferior) characters. I have more respect for Sheiks who aren't oblivious to how gay they are. Most of the time I'm content to be quiet, but my patience is a bit thinner than it was a year ago.

Trust me when I say that I'm very well versed in Marth's out-of-shield options and that I have used all of them at some point except for one of them. You misread the frame data though. Marth's Up B only has invincibility on frame 5, not the first 5 frames, and it regularly gets stuffed for whatever reason (maybe human error). I've been wavedashing out of shield for years, but some players actually have pretty good ways of dealing with that too. From watching matches at Genesis, Taj and Dart (and even S2J) responded to shield pressure with buffered rolls roughly 80 to 90% of the time. Probably just the safest thing even though it's punishable too.

Counter out of shield has merit, but no one has ever bothered to do it.

And don't give me that "if x is so easy" crap. If every other character were so easy then space animals would never win against them.

I don't think it's so much that they think they're the only ones who get punished for making mistakes, it's just that they often do make mistakes because of the precision necessary to effectively pillar and because of the risk involved in actually approaching the opponent. Also, effective pillaring doesn't even guarantee anything. I don't know how many times I've lost a stock or a game because of shine out of shield or a smart reaction or stupid *** Peach stuff. Oh, and don't even get me started on Ice Climbers. Additionally, space animals and fast fallers in general are combo food. Being vulnerable for any amount of time sucks.

No, given the fact that I was speaking in absolutes, my statement couldn't have been anything more than an exaggeration of the truth. What space animal players actually do believe is that other characters can get away with making mistakes, because they have less combo hitstun and less gimpable recoveries, while space animal players can't.

Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone pays for it when their opponent makes them. I make dozens of mistakes every game and get punished very hard for them. I don't know how many times I've lost a stock or a game because of some miniscule detail either. That's just how this game goes.

Part of the problem comes in understanding punishment only in terms of damage and stocks. Space animals don't just punish with combos and edgeguards; they also punish by denying opportunities. Other characters do this too in certain match-ups -- it's pretty much the only thing Marth does against Samus -- but no one does it as well as Fox and Falco, because no one exerts control anywhere near as well as they do, at least not against other good characters. Part of the whole reason space animal players get bent out of shape over getting punished for mistakes is because that's when other characters -- whether it's Marth, Falcon, Peach, or anyone even further down the tier list -- actually get a decent opportunity to make something happen. But they need to do more with less, and they need good execution so that they don't squander what opportunities they do get.

There's even more to be said on this subject, but this is already pretty TL;DR.

 

[AntoPark]

Whenever I read your posts, it feels like you gave up on advancing the metagame/your own play.

 

[SUNG475]

San Diego so far from LA, never get to play you guys in tourney