SBR Recommended Rule List Discussion: Brawl

[memphischains]

Nuro had an idea for custom stages in high play, Overswarm you should talk to him.

I believe he has a thread somewhere and some things on YouTube about it, and I'm sure he has elaborated on the idea more

edit - Think Ohana.

and i still have some issues with this way back from like the first pages, but I guess it is really up to the TO.

 

[Tony_]

IMO, custom stages wouldn't be all that good for competitive play, as anything could happen, and it would put the opponent to a MAJOR disadvantage.

 

[Mmac]

IMO, custom stages wouldn't be all that good for competitive play, as anything could happen, and it would put the opponent to a MAJOR disadvantage.

I'm not talking about stages with a bunch of randomly placed Springs/Fall Platforms/Belts/Spikes/Weird Things/Cookies. Just some simply designed 6x2 ,6x3, or 6x4 Small Stages, or 10x3-5 Medium Sized Stages With only a few platforms or other simple elements

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I could bring up a million points, but I think I'll limit myself to the issues I find most important and most likely to be productive (I don't get a sense that anything but hard experience is going to convince anyone about how bad Pirate Ship is at this point).

I'll cover the most important first: does the SBR have an extremely concrete definition of stalling? The line is actually pretty fine, and I've heard a lot of contradictory positions on exactly what constitutes stalling. Here are some random cases that come up:

There are only 15 seconds in the match and you are using Sonic. You just run around and away until you win to time.

You are playing on Green Greens and have a 1% lead. You go to one of the far platforms (which is a great advantage to you in this matchup) and simply don't move until either they jump at you or time runs out.

You are playing on the Pirate Ship and, whenever you are even or have a lead, you just jump in the water in the front of the ship and refuse to approach. If they want to fight you, they can come in the water (nevermind your massive advantage there).

You are playing on Hanenbow in a doubles match and it is 1v1. You are using Fox and just run and gun until they are at killing damage; you refuse to ever get close enough for them to hit you.

The matchup is Ike vs Captain Falcon. Ike jumps on the ledge and spends the next 8 minutes using Aether.

I would consider none of those cases stalling, but I've heard a lot of people claim that some (or even all!) of them are. Considering I will definitely attempt to camp the water at any tournament that allows Pirate Ship, it's relevant.

How are exact ties (stock and percentage) handled? This is important in deciding whether you have to approach in some circumstances.

Why isn't the Bridge of Eldin doubles legal? None of the issues brought up with it apply to doubles at all; it seems like it would be a 100% fair counterpick in that environment.

Speaking of doubles, the logic presented for the banning of 75m and Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 doesn't seem to apply to it very well. Did the stage list for doubles get an independent analysis? I'm not sure either of those stages are actually fair in doubles (though I don't think 75m is any worse than Hanenbow which is a statement against Hanenbow more than for 75m), but I have to point out that those stages seem unexplored for fairness in that environment right now.

 

[Tony_]

I'm not talking about stages with a bunch of randomly placed Springs/Fall Platforms/Belts/Spikes/Weird Things/Cookies. Just some simply designed 6x2 ,6x3, or 6x4 Small Stages, or 10x3-5 Medium Sized Stages With only a few platforms or other simple elements

Ahhhhh I see.

 

[mangamusicfan]

i think its a very nice list of al thos stage's

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Ampharos, ties are when time runs out, and both players have one stock. The player with lower % will automatically win, so you don't have to do the sudden death.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The question was exact ties where the percentage is the same (like you both have 1 stock 67%). The case where one player has a percentage lead is obvious.

 

[Overswarm]

Sudden death is played out in those cases.

 

[Xiivi]

There are only 15 seconds in the match and you are using Sonic. You just run around and away until you win to time.

In cases like this most people will call it "running the clock" (sounds a lot like stalling... -_-;. Rarely would you see a TO jump in and call it stalling.

You are playing on Green Greens and have a 1% lead. You go to one of the far platforms (which is a great advantage to you in this matchup) and simply don't move until either they jump at you or time runs out.

Maintaining your positional advantage is obviously not stalling. If neither you or your opponent want to approach, what is the TO supposed to say? "Sorry, Player A go attack Player B right now!" If Player A was in a position that could not be reached by Player B, then this would be a problem.

You are playing on the Pirate Ship and, whenever you are even or have a lead, you just jump in the water in the front of the ship and refuse to approach. If they want to fight you, they can come in the water (nevermind your massive advantage there).

See the point above, you're simply refusing to give up your positional advantage and their refusing to give up their position as well.

You are playing on Hanenbow in a doubles match and it is 1v1. You are using Fox and just run and gun until they are at killing damage; you refuse to ever get close enough for them to hit you.

Fox is running away and shooting lasers, which is engaging in enough conflict for it to not be stalling. (Which is why Hanenbow sucks when it gets to 1 v 1.)

The matchup is Ike vs Captain Falcon. Ike jumps on the ledge and spends the next 8 minutes using Aether.

Ike's running the risk of being edgeguarded or spiked during this while putting C. Falcon at the risk of getting Aether spiked if he tries to do those things. C. Falcon can reach and punish Ike in this case, thus it can't really be stalling.

How are exact ties (stock and percentage) handled? This is important in deciding whether you have to approach in some circumstances.

From the rulelist itself: Resolving Ties: Any games ending in time running out should always be decided by stock, and then percents. If percents are the same or both players die simultaneously, there will be a 1 stock overttime or the sudden death will be played out. The TO needs to decide which of these will be used before the tournament. Bowser's suicide klaw is exempt from this rule.

Why isn't the Bridge of Eldin doubles legal?

I believe Hanenbow was the only stage that was voted on for Doubles. Kind of a shame.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike's running the risk of being edgeguarded or spiked during this while putting C. Falcon at the risk of getting Aether spiked if he tries to do those things. C. Falcon can reach and punish Ike in this case, thus it can't really be stalling.

plus Ike can only aether 6 times in a row then he falls like tethers do. Should have done this to others too like Mk and bowser.

 

[jyuuberu]

All of metaknight's specials are recoveries. If there was a limit on shuttle loops he would just switch to dimensional capes and that whole cycle would just last until the metaknight didn't want to stall anymore.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i have a question,
when you win a match and have to pick your character first, if you chose someone like pokemon trainer, do you have to also choose your starting pokemon at that time, or are you allowed to change which pokemon you start with.

 

[Xiivi]

i have a question,
when you win a match and have to pick your character first, if you chose someone like pokemon trainer, do you have to also choose your starting pokemon at that time, or are you allowed to change which pokemon you start with.

Yes, when you pick your character, you have to follow through with your decision. You cannot simply pick Pokemon Trainer and then after your opponent picks their character you get to choose between the three. If you pick Pokemon Trainer without selecting one of the three, then you're stuck as is (which is randomly chosen). It's similar to someone placing their cursor on Zelda and then after their opponent picks their character you say "oh I wanted sheik". The whole point is they are supposed to be able to counterpick you, not the other way around.

 

[Mr.E]

Can't you also choose a pokémon directly from PKMN TRNR by holding the corresponding button for whichever one you want to use?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Can't you also choose a pokémon directly from PKMN TRNR by holding the corresponding button for whichever one you want to use?

You just select the one you want at the character select screen. >_>

 

[GameQ]

What about counter picking against someone who picks Samus?. Lets say your pro who mains Samus and ZSS. Can't you then decide to switch to ZSS or not depending on how your opponent pixks?

I guess it isn't a very big deal since they can switch in battle anyway.

~GameQ

 

[infomon]

Yes, I believe that you hold L after the character select screen (as it goes to the stage select screen) to start off as ZSS. But I guess if you're picking Samus or Zamus, you should have to tell the opponent which one you're picking when you do. That should probably be in the rules IMO >.>

Although my personal opinion is that they should be counted as one character; you pick Samus, and it's up to you if it will be Samus or ZSS when the match starts. Brawl provides this mechanism for a reason. *shrug*

 

[O D I N]

Yes, I believe that you hold L after the character select screen (as it goes to the stage select screen) to start off as ZSS. But I guess if you're picking Samus or Zamus, you should have to tell the opponent which one you're picking when you do. That should probably be in the rules IMO >.>

Although my personal opinion is that they should be counted as one character; you pick Samus, and it's up to you if it will be Samus or ZSS when the match starts. Brawl provides this mechanism for a reason. *shrug*

True, but this would get rid of a "mindgame" in my opinion.

An opponent should be able to counterpick based on whatever options that opponent has.

In melee, if someone picked Zelda, a large majority of smashers assumed that they were in fact playing as Sheik. But then the match starts, and it's Zelda. Or Zelda can change mid match. As a player, you have to be prepared.

Besides, on the stage select, you can see what character is gonna be starting, so you can prepare yourself that way. I understand the idea of counterpicks (obviously), but the winner of match 1 shouldn't just hand the other opponent a win by saying "I'm picking this character, and playing as Squirtle the whole time".

Just my opinion. I'm sure there are a lot of problems with my post, but I'm open for discussion.


(Sorry if this didn't make much sense. Just woke up)

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ok so im pretty sure this isn't allowed, but I just wanted to ask anyways.
are you allowed to switch controllers with your teammate in the middle of a doubles match, and take control of each others character?

 

[thumbswayup]

Alright, thank you very much OS.

It's really aggravating that people are crying for MK to be banned just 5 months into the game and without full, concrete evidence supporting it. (thumbswayup, I'm looking at you)

Try living in MD/VA, where every other player mains MK, and the other half uses him as a secondary

 

[Wölf]

I love how one of the main reasons why Eldin is banned is because of DDD's sheer ownage.

Not even being sarcastic, I think it's hilarious.

 

[swordgard]

I would like an answer from somebody who knows something about the SBR rules.

At a recent tournament(FFYF), a metaknight extended his cape to get behind me, but didnt stall.

Is extending metaknights cape completely banned, or only banned for stalling, I think it is completely banned or else it would already be in the stalling parenthesis section

 

[Vyse]

I would like an answer from somebody who knows something about the SBR rules.

At a recent tournament(FFYF), a metaknight extended his cape to get behind me, but didnt stall.

Is extending metaknights cape completely banned, or only banned for stalling, I think it is completely banned or else it would already be in the stalling parenthesis section

Completely banned.
Not even to extend it slightly, because timing the extension is unrealistic.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

About the Summit: Is it just me, or does it have a circle?

 

[Overswarm]

It appears to have a circle at first, but the icicle, water, and falling platform as well as the destructable ice make it very difficult to keep this circle up. You just end up making a loop or two before getting caught.

 

[Empy]

True, but this would get rid of a "mindgame" in my opinion.
[...] I understand the idea of counterpicks (obviously), but the winner of match 1 shouldn't just hand the other opponent a win by saying "I'm picking this character, and playing as Squirtle the whole time".

Just my opinion. I'm sure there are a lot of problems with my post, but I'm open for discussion.


(Sorry if this didn't make much sense. Just woke up)

Obviously you shouldn't tell your opponent I'm playing this character the whole time but you should tell which 1 you start with, even if it's Samus/ZSS. Why shouldn't players be allowed to counterpick ZSS or Samus?

 

[Platypus]

Up to this point, almost all of the questions have been about gameplay, but I have another thing in mind.

According to the rules, wireless controllers are discouraged. That much is logical. However, I saw no rule determining the course of action to follow if a wireless controller goes out mid-clash.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Platypus, the game would be paused, and hope to god nothing serious happens. You should check your batteries before entering a tournament anyway, so you should know if it is going to run out.

 

[Overswarm]

That player gets to get beat up by his opponent while his batteries are put in. The opponent doesn't have to pause.

 

[Cod]

Sorry if this was discussed on another page, but what's the reasoning behind Bowser's Klaw rule? To me it seems like the Bowser player should be aware that Bowserciding when both players are on their last stock is a gamble, and should deal with the outcome he gets.

 

[Overswarm]

use search function, cod

 

[Cod]

I apologize. I didn't know about the controller port thing. I tested out Bowserciding months ago and I thought I remembered getting different results under the same exact circumstances, but I just tested the controller port thing to see for myself and it's true (obviously). I came out of lurking just to screw up. Oh, well.

 

[Blad01]

Seriously, the only stages that can be named "Neutral" are :

- Final Destination
- Battlefield
- Smashville

Yohsi's Island is NOT Neutral (think to auto-cancel... Particulary Ganondorf :x).

Castle Siege can't be a starter neither... Think to projectiles and chaingrabs...

Delfino neither...

On the other hand, Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise or Halberd could be starters, yes...

 

[Swordplay]

I am disappointed...

I am super happy that the rule set came out HOWEVER..

You could have mentioned something about ISP (item standard play) instead of blowing the whole topic off.

At least an "optional" format to follow if you wanted ISP would have been nice in the "Official Ruleset"

Can any SBR members tell me what made you decide to leave this out all together?

 

[MysticKenji]

Yohsi's Island is NOT Neutral (think to auto-cancel... Particulary Ganondorf :x).

On the other hand, ... Lylat Cruise ... could be starters, yes...

Wait, what?

 

[Sinz]

What?

Halberd a starter? Do you want to lose instantly to MKs?

 

[Sliq]

I am disappointed...

I am super happy that the rule set came out HOWEVER..

You could have mentioned something about ISP (item standard play) instead of blowing the whole topic off.

At least an "optional" format to follow if you wanted ISP would have been nice in the "Official Ruleset"

Can any SBR members tell me what made you decide to leave this out all together?

Nobody really gives a shit about item standard play, not even the players that want it. Seriously. You would attend 0 tournaments anyways, so it's pointless.

 

[Swordplay]

Not true at all.....

I attend plenty of tourneys and play MM friendlies with ISP.........

Ya "Nobody" gives a **** about ISP??? I would change that to "most".


I am a very competivite player sliq....but I love to try diffrent versions of brawl competition and ISP provides just that. A fair and competitive way for Item play.

 

[exarch]

I spent the past several days digging through this topic,

Overswarm, you've done a fantastic job explaining the logic behind some of these decisions, not to mention having an incredible amount of patience at the same time. You changed my mind about Pipes (Just so you know people's minds can be changed over the internets). I'm not convinced about some of the other stages though.

Also to address the SP issue, I agree the control flipping isn't a valid reason to ban it, but there is a HUGE circle camping problem with this level. That is why the level is (or should be) banned.