Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[D20]

@D20: Well, that's why you make an approved item list. I'm not saying turn every item on high, I'm saying we should broaden our perspective (since, you know, this is a different game) and see if certain items can bring anything new to the table thanks to the reduced hitstun and slower gameplay. I don't think that's too unreasonable.

This does seem more reasonable, but it still has some issues. Take a character like Toon Link or Falco... they make excellent use of their projectiles. Therefore, their standard moves begin to lose value when items are on. For example, if a Jigglypuff picks up a ray gun, she now has a move similar to one of Falco's character specific moves.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yes, Spiral, if your friend loses gets discourages and quits because he loses he IS a scrub.

The BEST way to get good at a game is to get your *** kicked by the elites. I came into melee in february 2006 playing with all of TA+H2YL and had no idea how to play the game. Luckily i have a competitive mentality and had already been pro in other games and in less than a year i was competing with pros, and after almost 2 I was a top level player.

I know plenty of people who started the same level as me yet have the mentality you spoke of (scrubby) who just dont get very good ebcause of it.

its not elitist. its truth.

 

[thumbswayup]

I remember going to my first competitive melee tourny. I had played for months prior and knew how to do weak *** combos with fox and sheik. I couldn't even wavedash or L-cancel. Suprisingly enough, I beat someone there and came close to beating another. Granted, I was using sheik against ganon in the latter. Anyways, besides those two matches, I lost every other match I played there and got four stocked countless times. Sure, it was frustrating, but i was having FUN while losing. This is a concept scrubs do not grasp. To them, in order for something to be fun, they have to be winning.

I remember many months later I improved so much, but STILL had trouble wavedashing and still could not L-cancel. This didn't stop me from going to more smashfests and playing as many people as I could. Each time I played I got better, and that excited me in ways you noobs will never know. It's when you see yourself doing things you thought impossible only months before that you understand that all the practice and patience you put in this game truly become rewarding.

And now, today, each time I play melee I pull off a new combo, or do an old one faster and more accurately. This is the best motivation for me to continue to play melee. I've come this far and each time I play I notice myself getting better. Brawl has no such impact on me.

 

[Scar]

Dunno why you guys are arguing over depth in this game. I mean sure the players might play it competitively like in melee, but neither brawl nor melee are competitive games.

Compared to any half way decent fighter, smash bros is fairly shallow. But it's just by far the funnest that's all *shrugs*

It's like arguing which anime is worse, Naruto or One Piece, when clearly it doesn't matter because they both suck.

THANK YOU. I've been waiting for someone else to say this.

Wow so you guys are clearly trolls and both suck really bad at Melee? Is that what I'm to understand here? Would you mind going back over to SRK or wherever you came from? If you knew anything about anything you'd know how deep/competitive/balanced/awesome SSBM is.

 

[NekoBoy085]

....Brawl is shallow, but Melee is pretty deep. Maybe not as deep as VF or GG, but **** it if it can't beat Street Fighter II Turbo and it is played (I am pretty sure this game is half way decent fighter). lol

Nah it's not really that deep. Having a few glitches that very character can use isn't really deep at all. They are just minor additions to make the entire gameplay easier once learned.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Nah it's not really that deep. Having a few glitches that very character can use isn't really deep at all. They are just minor additions to make the entire gameplay easier once learned.

Obvious troll, or really ignorant person.

 

[Scar]

Nah it's not really that deep. Having a few glitches that very character can use isn't really deep at all. They are just minor additions to make the entire gameplay easier once learned.

I think you are stupid. You are presenting things as fact when you have no idea what you're talking about. Added to the list, and now since you are here the thread is going to turn to garbage (feeding the trolls) and I guess I'll just wait it out.

Good work.

 

[NekoBoy085]

Wow so you guys are clearly trolls and both suck really bad at Melee? Is that what I'm to understand here? Would you mind going back over to SRK or wherever you came from? If you knew anything about anything you'd know how deep/competitive/balanced/awesome SSBM is.

Wow so just because I disagree with you that makes me a troll? Fair enough, everyone use this same means to try and seem like they are winning an argument. If you can't come up with a better means of arguing please kindly leave me alone.

I mean honestly how can I be a troll when I play this game five or more hours a day e.e'

 

[Scar]

If you think Melee isn't deep, then you are not good at the game and have never played/competed with anyone good at the game. If you want to ask why we think it's deep then feel free, but to say "Melee is a shallow game" is presenting something completely false as fact.

Doing so is not to be respected.

 

[NekoBoy085]

Lol a few glitches don't make a competitive game really, just how I feel. Like it or not I don't think melee will ever be considered as deep as most competitive 2D fighters and 3D fighters. Sure it's competitive, that's because the game is fun and a few players make it that way.

Players can logically make any type of game with points in it competitive.

 

[Spiral]

Wow so you guys are clearly trolls and both suck really bad at Melee? Is that what I'm to understand here? Would you mind going back over to SRK or wherever you came from? If you knew anything about anything you'd know how deep/competitive/balanced/awesome SSBM is.

Lol. you aren't worth talking to. You can be dissapointed with the game and continue trying to ram a round peg into a square hole. I'll have fun with it because I know what it is and accept it at that. Who really wins?

 

[Wiseguy]

Yeah, I'm off Scar's list of stupid posters! I appreciate it.

This paragraph is much more significant. Yes, I agree. This is how things go, and this is a truly competitive game we're discussing. The people who don't have fun anymore feel that they have reached their limit, and either give up or continue to miserably play, never making any progress because their attitude sucks.

These people are scrubs. I started playing Melee and everyone ***** me all the time. I was terrible. But that's the way the game goes, you start at the bottom because you know that if you keep trying, at some point, you'll be at the top. Or at least see how far you can get.

The scrub mentality of "the game is no fun if you consistently lose" is a mark of poor attitude, immaturity, and insecurity. The fact that Nintendo caters to this says only that their target market is "Ages 4 and up," the only class of human beings excused for such character traits.

The problem here is obvious: the Smash/SWF community is more mature than that, and given the choice between a child's game and something that has been clearly demonstrated as more than that, Melee>Brawl competitively speaking.

I have to disagree with you. The only purpose videogames serve is the enjoyment people recieve from playing them. No method of playing videogames is inheriently superior than another.Some people play stock, 1vs1 matches on Final Destination. Some people play coin matches on New Pork City. You can argue which mode is the better way to measure skill, but neither method of play is inheriently better for the simple reason that different people enjoy different things.

Enjoying a game where you don't need years of practice to hold your own in touraments does not make someone an inferior human being, less of a Smash Bros fan, or an immature four year old. Their opinions and preferances are just as valid as the next guy. In addition, there are lots of older Smash Bros fans have jobs, relationships, college, etc. Some people just don't have the time or the patience necessary to learn advances techniques. This does not, however, mean that they are not also loyal tourament attendees or "competitive" players in the tradtional sense (ie: people who engage in competition.)

In essense, if Brawl is indeed a less technical (or perish the thought) less "competitive" game by your definition it will likely still be a superior videogame in that more people will revieve more enjoyment from their experience playing it. And really, that's all that matters since no game can please everyone.

I'm serious; we really need to consider competitive item play, at least at first. All of the 'ISP' testing we've done says that it really can screw up camping (which is the big problem right now), and over at Crush Siblings they're going to be running a few item tournaments to see if that's really the case. I mean, what's the harm in trying, right? Worst case, we waste a few tournaments; best case, camping goes and eats a d*ck.

I definitely agree. But do tourament goers have that degree of openmindedness? (The people I play with would sooner gnaw off their own arms than consider turning items on...)

I hope to see some Atlantic Canadian items tourneys some time, as I would definiitely attend.

 

[NekoBoy085]

If you think Melee isn't deep, then you are not good at the game and have never played/competed with anyone good at the game. If you want to ask why we think it's deep then feel free, but to say "Melee is a shallow game" is presenting something completely false as fact.

Doing so is not to be respected.

Nah I judge it based on my other fighting game experiences in general not by how well I do in it. I learned the L cancels and wavedashing, foxtrotting etc. etc. but they weren't what made the game interesting in the slightest. The gameplay is what did so and I enjoy the game because it's unique play style. I mean you guys can say it's deep and such but I simply will not agree and many fighters lovers will agree with me.

Smash bros is fun, really fun but not really deep to me.

But lol at you guys getting offensive over it, really shows what you guys are

 

[Plairnkk]

Wiseguy, I agree that more people will enjoy brawl. But those more people are not those I find to be the true competitive players. The issue at hand is that Sakurai turned his back on the melee community. He saw what we did to his game...how we evolved it...etc and rather than being appreciative of this...appreciative that we loved his game THAT much, he went out and slaughtered everything we know.

At E-for-all brawl still had some advance things in it. They let people demo it...why? So they could see what else was left advance and STRIP that too.

Do you know what starcraft is doing? For starcraft 2 they are letting korean pros demo it and work out balance issues. They are making sure the game stays on path.

That is a true competitive game. Sakurai could have easily made the game appeal to both a competitive and fun-based audience, but he chose not to. Point and fact, he turned his back on us.

edit:: neko before i played melee competitively i sounded like you, but you just have to put your ignorant bias aside and actually play the game in tournaments before you learn what it's worth. Likewise melee players don't find other fighters to be as serious sometimes, since it's just the same exact button inputs against someone stuck to a wall over and over.

 

[Spiral]

This remindes me of all the EQ fanatics posting about WoW being dumbed down and ez mode, takes no skill, etc etc etc.

Compare WoW's population to EQ's?

Most people aren't looking for that uber hardcore experience that you seem to be after. Most people just wanna play some games for fun with their friends. Sorry bro, this game is not what you're looking for.

If you really wanna own people and prove your skill you should pick up another game.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

If you think Melee isn't deep, then you are not good at the game and have never played/competed with anyone good at the game. If you want to ask why we think it's deep then feel free, but to say "Melee is a shallow game" is presenting something completely false as fact.

Doing so is not to be respected.

Enlighten me then. Everywhere I go someone wants to tell me how deep and technical Melee is. What is there to know about competitive Melee aside from wavedashing, l-canceling, and maybe short hopping? Those things alone don't give the game the depth of something like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

 

[Scar]

Lol. you aren't worth talking to. You can be dissapointed with the game and continue trying to ram a round peg into a square hole. I'll have fun with it because I know what it is and accept it at that. Who really wins?

lol Imagine that being anything that I have done. I'm happy for everyone that plays it and enjoys it. I'm glad for people who have fun with it. I just play Melee, I never play Brawl. I'm not trying to get people to follow me, I just started this thread when it was a point of discussion that perhaps Brawl and Melee exhibited the same level of competitiveness.

So basically what you have said was "I'm not worth talking to," followed by a false description of me, a description of you, and a rhetorical question. I don't even know how to respond. There is just nothing to that post.

Nah I judge it based on my other fighting game experiences in general not by how well I do in it. I learned the L cancels and wavedashing, foxtrotting etc. etc. but they weren't what made the game interesting in the slightest.

Right, so you haven't played vs anyone good and therefore can have no idea how deep the game is.

Smash bros is fun, really fun but not really deep to me.

Well it's not a matter of opinion. Depth in a game comes from facts about it... so "deep to me" is a relatively meaningless phrase.

But lol at you guys getting offensive over it, really shows what you guys are

I'm getting defensive, there's a big difference. I will always and forever be defensive when someone presents blatant lie as plain fact. It's just who I am.

If you really wanna own people and prove your skill you should pick up another game.

Yes. Melee.

 

[icethatclimbs]

Scar For President Listen To This Man Please He Knows What Hes Talking About!

 

[Scar]

Enlighten me then. Everywhere I go someone wants to tell me how deep and technical Melee is. What is there to know about competitive Melee aside from wavedashing, l-canceling, and maybe short hopping? Those things alone don't give the game the depth of something like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

You would be correct. The techs do not make the game competitive, they just increase options from what the game was designed for. They make movement more free and allow for longer and more awesome combos.

I can't just sit here and explain the depth of Melee, it's too much. But if you stay tuned, when M2K wakes up I'm going to make him explain it, he is much more robotic than I and can spew facts in rapid succession without skipping a beat.

Also if you wanted to watch a high-level Melee match, I could point out the things they are doing and why, why the players are forgoing other apparently equally good options, what mistakes they were making and which choices they should have made... it's just clear that anyone who says Melee isn't a deep game has simply never played it competitively.

 

[thumbswayup]

Have M2k explain it in this thread Scar. I cannot wait for that lol.

edit: Also, how do you change the color of your name? Scar yours is pink, cactuar's is green, how do I change mine from yellow to blue?

 

[Spiral]

Why don't you just play Melee?

 

[NekoBoy085]

edit:: neko before i played melee competitively i sounded like you, but you just have to put your ignorant bias aside and actually play the game in tournaments before you learn what it's worth. Likewise melee players don't find other fighters to be as serious sometimes, since it's just the same exact button inputs against someone stuck to a wall over and over.

I did play a few tournies though, they were fun even though I didn't win and I have seen all the competitive videos and best of the best play etc. Just because a game has a tournament doesn't really mean that it has much depth, I think we can find an agreeable stance to that. Unless you want to say rock, paper, scissors is a very deep game.

lol Imagine that being anything that I have done. I'm happy for everyone that plays it and enjoys it. I'm glad for people who have fun with it. I just play Melee, I never play Brawl. I'm not trying to get people to follow me, I just started this thread when it was a point of discussion that perhaps Brawl and Melee exhibited the same level of competitiveness.

So basically what you have said was "I'm not worth talking to," followed by a false description of me, a description of you, and a rhetorical question. I don't even know how to respond. There is just nothing to that post.

Don't think you are talking to me since I never said any false information. So I'll leave this.

Right, so you haven't played vs anyone good and therefore can have no idea how deep the game is.

So to put it in best words from you, only people who have played against Ken in melee know about the depth in a video game? If so then be my guest and say so, I won't argue with you because really there is no point

Well it's not a matter of opinion. Depth in a game comes from facts about it... so "deep to me" is a relatively meaningless phrase.

So then tell me what makes this smash on par with MvsC, SFvsSNK, Tekken, Street Fighter series and Virtua Fighter 4 & 5 in terms of depth.

I'm getting defensive, there's a big difference. I will always and forever be defensive when someone presents blatant lie as plain fact. It's just who I am.

Okay...what lies?

Yes. Melee.

If you say so, I'll stick my competitive play with Tekken more likely though

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jesus, this is going downhill quick. And we had such a (relatively) good morning in here, too.

 

[Brookman]

It's really pointless to try and explain depth of melee to someone who has never experienced it's depth.

Have you ever tried to explain a beautiful sunset to a blind man? No matter how detailed your description is he will never grasp it's sheer marvel

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy, I agree that more people will enjoy brawl. But those more people are not those I find to be the true competitive players. The issue at hand is that Sakurai turned his back on the melee community. He saw what we did to his game...how we evolved it...etc and rather than being appreciative of this...appreciative that we loved his game THAT much, he went out and slaughtered everything we know.

At E-for-all brawl still had some advance things in it. They let people demo it...why? So they could see what else was left advance and STRIP that too.

Do you know what starcraft is doing? For starcraft 2 they are letting korean pros demo it and work out balance issues. They are making sure the game stays on path.

That is a true competitive game. Sakurai could have easily made the game appeal to both a competitive and fun-based audience, but he chose not to. Point and fact, he turned his back on us.

Scar's defintion of "competitive" players (ie: Smashers concerned with accurate skill measurement) are neither the majority nor the superior branch of the Melee community. Making a game solely for this audience makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, Sakurai did not "turn his back" on the "competitive" community. If he had, he would have removed all skill from the equation. The widely accepted argument is that skill is rewarded less in Brawl than in Melee, not that winning in Brawl totally devoid of skill. Sakurai simply didn't cater his game to the "competitive" branch of the community as much as they would have liked. Instead, he corrected concluded that the majority of the community prefer to FEEL like they are skilled rather than actually become skilled through lots of practice.

Brawl is perfect for what it is. It's not Sakurai's fault that a local few aren't buying what he's selling.

 

[NES n00b]

So then tell me what makes this smash on par with MvsC, SFvsSNK, Tekken, Street Fighter series and Virtua Fighter 4 & 5 in terms of depth.

This is a strange question, as the same could be said of "in what way could those games have the same depth as Melee" which of course would be super hard to explain.

Let's just say that you need alot of game knowledge, need to be a quick thinker, and there are so many options that you have to account for them all in both how to counter and using them to fool your opponent like any other game.

 

[Cort]

I played cort in Brawl last night, and his primary strategy (with snake) is throw grenades, plant mines and ****, DC up smash randomly, and shield into f tilt/up tilt.

Sounds fun, and advanced, and skillful, right?

I think it's fun. *shrugs*

It might not take a lot of skill but then... use Snake and out ftilt me? Then the more skillful ftilter will win. Or CG me with DDD considering you can shield anything into shield drop dash grab and give me around 30-40% minimum if you know what you're doing.

I'm not really sure what my opinion on Brawl is, but I have fun playing Snake and I do well with him in tourny, and there's money to be made considering every scrub thinks they're the best.

I honestly laugh really loud inside my head whenever I play someone that approaches me in tournament, cause I know for a fact I'm going to win by many stock.

 

[Gamerjoe]

I think this thread ran its course, along with every other thread that has to do with the competitive value of Brawl and Melee. Ever since some Melee pro/moderator started a thread to cry about Brawl’s lack of competitiveness, likely someone who sang its praises when they played it before everyone else when it was demoed, they managed to turn a large portion of this community into civil war.

In any case, I think we can all see that this is going no place. Its not like anything anyone posts is going to change your mind about the competitive value of Brawl, is it Scar? It’s also clear that a lot of people like Brawl and you haven’t been successful in convincing them that Brawl is any less shallow than Melee. So what’s the point, friendly debate/discussion? No, since no one can win this debate and you designed this to be a thread where only your opinion is recognized by shortcutting to the post that you deem “Real Important.” Jack Keiser has raised interesting points that counter your opinion but I don’t see him getting credited on the first post.

So what is the point of this thread? You claim it’s to compare Melee to Brawl in terms of competitive value. You said yourself that you cannot define competitiveness through words, its something that an individual decides based on their opinion and values. So, in short, Brawl is more shallow than Melee in your opinion and it is not so in my opinion. That’s it; I doubt anything else really constructive will come of this. Aside from trying to convert more people into agreeing with your opinion, which clearly isn’t working (those who were unhappy with Brawl felt that way before you started this thread), you’ve attracted all sorts of aggravation and negativity with this, along with every other one of these threads.

Label me as one of your “Unintelligent Posters” or consider this a “Real Bad” post if you wish. I don’t really care since I’ve been browsing this thread for a long time and never felt compelled to register, my join date doesn’t reflect my experiences here or in terms of Smash Bros., but now the general discussion has become very unpleasant and pointless opinionated threads are becoming ridiculous.

You must admit Scar that this thread isn’t really accomplishing anything besides voicing your opinion, of which you could have done in any other one of these threads. If you like Melee so much better then why can’t you just play Melee and leave it at that? If you’re disappointed with Brawl then I’m sorry, but you have to understand that some of us are also happy about the changes with Brawl. I simply don’t see the point in making a thread arguing Brawl is better so why do you feel you need to do the same? Which game is better or worse is what these threads seem to amount to.

 

[Brookman]

Super Turbo P2P Kaillera Ranbat #1 - 11/03/08

PC vs KDJ MLG Vegas series

Just for fun.


Honestly, anyone arguing that Brawl is "deep" has yet to play anyone good in the game.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Super Turbo P2P Kaillera Ranbat #1 - 11/03/08

PC vs KDJ MLG Vegas series

Just for fun.

I don't find either of those particularly entertaining.

 

[Cort]

That's because you have little to no idea of what's actually going on.

..which is why I didn't find the Super Turbo video entertaining.

 

[Brookman]

You didn't find them entertaining? That's nice...and?

 

[Gamerjoe]

I don't find either of those particularly entertaining.

Me neither and while I was able to understand what was happening, it was too fast to appreciate it as a spectator and the stocks end way too prematurely in my opinion.

You posting the videos was equally as irrelevant to the topic as Jack responding to it.

 

[Alukard]

Super Turbo P2P Kaillera Ranbat #1 - 11/03/08

PC vs KDJ MLG Vegas series

Just for fun.


Honestly, anyone arguing that Brawl is "deep" has yet to play anyone good in the game.

o how i miss this game ...thank u brookman for making me turn my melee for a good hour just to combo the computer lol ... =)

 

[Brookman]

If you think that Melee is just "wavedashing and dash dancing around till someone messes up or leaves themselves open too long" then I invite you to just wavedash and dash dance around against me.

Since it's that easy, you should win...right?

 

[GTR!]

Thinking quickly is exciting. Speed is exciting.

Imagine watching two snails race. Sort of defeats the purpose of a race, right? Likewise, smash is a fighting game, and fighting games should be fast.

Brawl tests knowledge of the game, which can be gained by sitting in front of your computer screen for hours and learning what counters what. That is boring, especially since there's very little to know about the game.

true being fast makes a fighting game more entertaining to watch but is it necessicaraly better to play?

Samus dittos on Dreamland wasnt exactly the ideal match to watch because of the rediculous ability of samus' recovery as im sure everyone here knows but that doenst mean just beacasue of that one simple fact the game itself was bad because of samus dittos.

now brawl has a bit more varied version of said "samus dittos" such as and analogy of samus dittos to camp fests in brawl but that doenst make the game aweful.

it pretty much comes down to the fact that in hinesight of all of this will you still play brawl? Its pretty mcuh like even if you have a car that has dents all in it but have nothing else to drive will you drive the car anyways? sure you can always drive your mom's mini-van but its which is the lesser of the two evils its all up to the person to decide


edit: this edit sucked

end of story

 

[Brookman]

Me neither and while I was able to understand what was happening, it was too fast to appreciate it as a spectator and the stocks end way too prematurely in my opinion.

You posting the videos was equally as irrelevant to the topic as Jack responding to it.

Honestly, you have absolutely no idea what is going on. You may be able to see the characters moving; you may know what attacks they are using; but the fact that you say it's too fast and that the stocks end prematurely just illustrates your lack of understanding as to what is going on beyond the pixels and button inputs.

The relevance of posting the videos is also beyond you, it seems.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Honestly, you have absolutely no idea what is going on. You may be able to see the characters moving, and you may know what attacks they are using. But the fact that you say it's too fast and that the stocks end prematurely just illustrates your lack of understanding of what's going on beyond the pixels and button inputs.

The relevance of posting the videos is also beyond you, it seems.

You can see beyond the character movements? Did you make a deal with a Smash-god or something?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Brookman, I understood everything that happened in that video; when I still lived in Washington state, I played a Fox just like that one (but not as skilled) all the time. I understand, but *gasp* I still don't find it entertaining. I understand executions and how they work, but, lo and behold, I wouldn't find watching one of them entertaining, either. I understand how cooking works, but I hate Iron Chef.

See what I'm getting at?

People love to assume that, if you don't like watching a Melee (or SF, or whatever) pro fight, then, well, you must not understand it because how on Earth could you not watch that and just not love it? It isn't what I like watching, so freakin' sue me. That match proves... well, not much. Certainly doesn't prove how one game is any better than the other, that's for sure.

 

[Brookman]

Funny .