Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Da Shuffla]

Marth Killer.

 

[Scar]

How do you edgeguard a marth? also is reverse u air a practical edgeguard?

If you hit him far enough off the stage, it's just a matter of staying on the ledge and making sure he doesn't hit you with upB. If you don't get hit by it, ledgehop knee is too easy, Marth's landing lag is atrociously long. If you don't hit him terribly far off, he will prob get back on. A Marth with many options is a scary Marth.

And no, I haven't found reverse uair to be that great.

 

[strangely mundane]

And no, I haven't found reverse uair to be that great.

Thanks, reverse u air is still sexy though.

 

[OmgItsWill]

Edgeguarding Marth is such a pain. The only thing that usually works for me is just letting go and regrabbing the edge to regain invincibility and hopefully edgehog them or force them up top for a knee =/

Also, how would you edgeguard a jiggz? She gives me the most trouble -.-
more marth edgeguarding advice would be cool too =)

 

[Aiko]

joke for scar:

Q: What would your name be if you were a pirate?

A: Scarrrrrr

 

[Bullet Bill]

Got any general advice about dittos? Any particular combos I should be going for. Thanks

 

[Oskurito]

Got any general advice about dittos? Any particular combos I should be going for. Thanks

Grab and tech chase, knee and space well.

/not really helpful

 

[Ripple]

scar, you are going to miss out if you don't go to SMYM 9. sethlon is coming and he and I are teaming for double roy and are going to ****.

 

[CanISmash]

i always copied isai and took a real sharp angle however was fit with a falling back-air to catch em off guard and it usually puts you into a position to just roll edge hog for the kill.

(edge guarding marth)

 

[G1G4 G0N0RRH34]

for marth, i get on the edge and time ledge drop regrab for invincibility right before he gets close
and then i ledgehop d-air when he up+bs
You can also just space on the edge and try to pressure him and predict what he does so you can just grab > knee

 

[PolMex23]

Ok marth is so gay.

I cant stand the match up...

I know my problem...my tech skill needs to be perfect...Im trying to do things i cant which is leaving me vunerable...

(JC grab) But...every1 i face is stupid in my eyes...i just cant do what i wanna do...lol. I cant wait, but again, i read g regs shiz on marth, really good.

Scar what are the things that u do in a match against marth than say (combo time)

Nair to knee?. I know d throw upAir into knee works at low percents... what else

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

for marth, i get on the edge and time ledge drop regrab for invincibility right before he gets close
and then i ledgehop d-air when he up+bs
You can also just space on the edge and try to pressure him and predict what he does so you can just grab > knee

why would you do that? I mean, besides being flashy. But if the marth can sweet spot, that's a bad idea. It's much better to ledge regrab for the invincibility, then maybe do a normal get up if you don't feel you have enough. You'll definately continue edgehogging, no chance missing that, and if they do make it on the stage you can just reverse knee them.

 

[Scar]

My thoughts on Marth..

MATCHUP BREAKDOWN
Marth can be really gay, but it is a winning matchup at the highest levels of play. Let's look at a table that I'm going to make right now.

MARTH...mid----good----solid----high
CF.............................................................
mid.........50/50--45/55-----30/70---*****
good.......60/40--60/40----35/65--*****
solid.......70/30--60/40----40/60----30/70
high........****---****----65/35----60/40

The interesting point I wanted to make with this little chart is that the matchup is HIGHLY HIGHLY dependent on the skill levels of both players.

Notice the drastic difference between "good" and "solid" Marth players. Be afraid of Marths that have just hit the next level of play, they really do transform into something scary. Note also the big change between "solid" and "high" level CF players.

In both of these cases, losing matchups turn into winning matchups. Just be happy as CF players that at the end of this progression you end up with the upper hand, though not by a huge margin.

For competitive Melee players, Marth players seem to have more trouble with Captain Falcon than vice-versa before becoming very solid players.

Once they hit that point, however, Marth seems to beat all but the best Captain Falcon players.

So yeah in your progression as a Falcon player it is my opinion that Marth is an easy matchup, then once you get better, equal level Marths give you A LOT more problems, until finally you reach the next level and it's match that you expect to win 60% of the time vs an equally skilled competitor.

ACTIONABLE ADVICE
vs Marth you really want to keep moving, dashdance a lot and be wary of his incredible fsmash range, jumping in and nairing is your usual approach but Marth beats this with:
fsmash
his incredibly fast sh>fair
and worst of all, dd>grab.

To counter this you need to be unpredictable. Be very wary of what Marth is up to, if he is ever vulnerable you really need to jump on him and catch him with a nair or a grab, and if you can't combo him to death from a nice combo starter (any clean hit with nair, dair, fB, or grab) that should be the first thing you work on.

Marth has a fairly easy time killing Captain Falcon from a grab, and is more than capable of keeping you on the defensive for a very long time after every hit. Again, make sure you are capable of returning the favor.

If you just jump in a lot, you're probably off to a bad start because that's probably what he expects, instead work on mixing that up with grabs or running in and shielding if he likes to fsmash a lot. Shielded fsmash when Marth is at low % can be countered by knee out of shield>grab, I use it and love it.

Try not to get grabbed, but if/when you do, don't get mad. Mix up teching and missing techs intentionally, be wary of Marth's options and just try to get out of it alive. His edgeguarding is amazing so you really need to realize that you have to beat him on the stage, every time you are offstage expect to lose the stock, and if you don't, kudos to you. Just realize that the ledge is that dangerous.

Other than that, be mindful of Marth's advantages when below you, stay away from platforms unless it's DL64, and work on your combos.

This match boils down to who can get the first hit, so learn how to mix up your approaches, learn how to bait Marth into doing what you want him to, and try to hit him first and then take the stock from him.

lol @ the pirate joke, ripple it's still 17 hours away, and I will talk more about edgeguarding Marth and CF dittos later today.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

How do you deal with a marth uthrow tech chasing you at low percents before you can jump out? I've tried mixing up DI and tech directions, and I still end up getting chased until the marth makes a stupid mistake. If I miss a tech, I get jab reset. If i tech under platforms to end the tech chasing, i get utilted.

 

[Doomgaze]

There's really not a whole lot you can do but vary your tech pattern and hope they make that "stupid mistake". What usually gets me out though is a tech in place->buffered spot dodge, then again this might still get punished by good marths so IDK.

And Scar, that was a great summary of the Marth matchup, even though most local smashers argue that CF is at a huge disadvantage throughout this matchup progression (then again, CF might be underdeveloped here).
I've read your advices again and again vs animals and shiek but we (I think I speak for most of us) would be more and happy if you could give "matchup breakdowns" for these as well.

PS: Can't wait for IKM2

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Actually, now that I think about it, if falcon has an advantage over marth at top levels of play, why is it that top marths usually beat top falcons?

 

[PolMex23]

Theres certain few who are on another level xD

 

[Meverse]

Actually, now that I think about it, if falcon has an advantage over marth at top levels of play, why is it that top marths usually beat top falcons?

cuz marth is the king of gimping while CF is the king of getting gimped

 

[Zephyr]

Because the top marths happen to be better at smash than the top falcons.

>_>

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Zeph just ***** all you falcon players

 

[DrewB008]

chred hold a direction or A when you miss a tech, other than that youre already doing all you can. dthrow tech chasing is just as good for marth vs falcon, and you cant jump out forever.

i think marth has a slight advantage over falcon at top levels myself, but either way id say its close enough to where it doesnt really matter

 

[JonaDiaper]

well top marths arent as sexy as falcon players

marths combos are all the same

falcon mixes it up every time. who cares if marth wins?

i dont see people cheering for m2k while he plays....

on the other hand theres darkrain and ss and EYE ZAYY UHHHHH

 

[Scar]

Yeah I think it's definitely because there are very few Falcons at that level. I personally think Darkrain would ruin any Marth out there.

Marth will outplace Falcon though because there are so many matchups that Marth will win and Falcon will most likely lose. It's tough to say though, because Isai made it to the finals very often and him vs Ken was never a done deal... but all the top players say that Falcon vs Marth is SLIGHTLY in Falcon's favor, no more than 60/40 and probably closer to 55/45.

I'll impart my vs Sheik and Fox knowledge, but honestly it comes down to being smart, camping, waiting for your opportunities and making them all hurt like hell. At least vs Marth there are some reliable strats, but Sheik and Fox are more/less impenetrable walls.

Falco is Falcon's worst matchup, if anyone has tips for ME I'd take them. I lost to AaroSmashGuy so whatever.

And about Marth's uthrow tech chase, wiggle out and land on your feet, then jab. Works like a charm.

 

[NES n00b]

Falco is Falcon's worst matchup, if anyone has tips for ME I'd take them. I lost to AaroSmashGuy so whatever.

XD HAHAHA.

Maybe if VA/PA/Maryland goes to TO4 I can help

Spoiler

lol

and stuff. And maybe the jigglypuff matchup too? But this is assuming I am even better than you in those matchups. It also assumes I can give any advice at all cause sometimes I try to give advice and I think it ends up being garbled mess to everyone.

 

[PolMex23]

Scar I have advice for you...

Aaro is really tech based...alittle thought behind his moves.

U are the same, combo happy.

You play diff now, i saw u play against DJ recently. More cautious, spacey...more like a C Falc with a brain.

Thats all man, I think i can teach u bout mindgames xD.

Im weird, I see the game in frames. Its not as fast to me as others would view it. Brawl is sooooo slow.

Idk why i cant convey what i want to do with my fingers fast enough (aka Tech skill) xD

Thats all

 

[Scar]

Yeah well that was a real experience for me lol so after that I started tech chasing more, and ultimately it's a long road, I haven't been playing the game for nearly as long as most other people and I'm just getting better with each tourney.

We'll see what happens.

 

[PolMex23]

Scar, 1

Your name is ****

2 Your Combo Vid is ****

3 Your avatar is the Rock which is a win an u should have woman clawing at your door for a piece of you an

4 Dont worry. Some1 needs to replace G Reg xD

 

[NES n00b]

Obviously I replace Greg. Get out. My Falcon forums.

 

[Bailey]

Why have women clawing at your door when you could have me?

 

[Scar]

Bailey where the **** have you been??

 

[DrewB008]

i think falco is my best matchup out of those top 3, but i just kind of play it by feel and its pretty different depending on the falco player. id say tech chase with knees rather than stomps pretty much always, a lot of times you can catch them with bad DI and get them low and off the stage at low %. i full jump and double jump a lot and come down with aerials to get around lasers, but thats dangerous too with falcos utilt. i like to run up and try to close range powershield to nair, that works really good.

roll around a lot instead of shielding

 

[Bailey]

Bailey where the **** have you been??

Losing 90lbs

 

[Da Shuffla]

Congratulations, Bailey.

Percents for Nair chains?

 

[Bailey]

Yep now I can be arrogant even more!

But now that football is over I can get back into smash and prolly gain 45lbs

 

[Dark_Crono]

Yeah I think it's definitely because there are very few Falcons at that level. I personally think Darkrain would ruin any Marth out there.

Marth will outplace Falcon though because there are so many matchups that Marth will win and Falcon will most likely lose. It's tough to say though, because Isai made it to the finals very often and him vs Ken was never a done deal... but all the top players say that Falcon vs Marth is SLIGHTLY in Falcon's favor, no more than 60/40 and probably closer to 55/45.

I'll impart my vs Sheik and Fox knowledge, but honestly it comes down to being smart, camping, waiting for your opportunities and making them all hurt like hell. At least vs Marth there are some reliable strats, but Sheik and Fox are more/less impenetrable walls.

Falco is Falcon's worst matchup, if anyone has tips for ME I'd take them. I lost to AaroSmashGuy so whatever.

And about Marth's uthrow tech chase, wiggle out and land on your feet, then jab. Works like a charm.

watch your game when you have 1 stock...thats the way you have to play against falco.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Congratulations, Bailey.

Percents for Nair chains?

they work at pretty much any percent (until they go to far from the nair, off course)

 

[Scar]

Nair chains are worthless vs floaties, anyone who knows what they are doing will DI up. They work best on semi-floaties with away or down DI, but if you're fast and creative with platforms you can really **** w/ nair>nair>nair.

 

[Cia]

what is your opinion on FowardB?? i picked up falcon and i use FowardB probably more than i should, but i don't really get punished for it.

 

[Scar]

fB is an incredible move so long as you don't get punished for it. Depending on opponent shield DI sometimes it can't be shieldgrabbed, and if it hits it's usually an incredible combo starter.

It very quickly decreases in utility as character weight decreases, though. fB vs Peach and Jiggs is not worth the risk of punishment if you ask me.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

rest/dsmash?