Scrub-Proof: The Competitive Ike Thread: Take Cover Here! -MOTD: Up Tilt!

[Kirio]

Yea but the down tilt has so much startup lag, that you will easily get shield grabbed before the down tilt comes out. Plus down tilt only does 10%, Any other move would be better to use.

If you space properly you're fine.

Doing something they don't expect is almost guaranteed damage. And 10% with Ike is like, 1/5th of what you need to KO someone.

 

[thenightsshadow]

Sorry I'm late to the posting.

I personally find that if you continually B-throw and get the damage/knockback down, you can usually set yourself up for a jump down tilt that will poke through the stage edge and barely get them when they immediately come up for ledge grabbing.

Obviously, this is very situational.

 

[VersatileBJN]

You definitely need throws. Maybe he wouldn't be unplayable, but he'd certainly be pretty awful. Throws open up your offense big.

I will probably leave throws as the move of the day tomorrow unless people make contributions towards it more tonight. Though I really do think I covered a lot of bases I'm sure there's more to add.

 

[senjiroth]

past moves xd

Hey! been reading this whole thread and i love it!! so i wanted to give me advice tho i dont think im as good as anyone here....

Throws: i use throws just to get some space from my ike... i use d-throw most of the time, since i got used to the aether follow-up and sometiems u-air.. but i dont even try to do it anymore because its so predictable and i get punished instead... xd f throw and b throw to give space or to throw to the ledge then follow up with f-smash (if im sure 'll hit) and most of the time f-tilt...

probably a noobish question but i'll ask it anyway (pls be nice??)

how can u approach a wolf that runs away and just blasters u to death???
is it just common sense patience? any approaches u reccomend?

Edit: for the past moves...

Eruption: i use it at random times when both of us are in high percentage and i try to time with the SA frames (which usually works for me), most of the time i use it to punish air dodge happy ppl..

D-tilt: never used it... xd i throw it out sometimes hoping to get at spike when off the ledge... well yea.. thats it for the D-tilt

 

[nitro-blazer]

---
Throws
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Throws are great with ike. Not too damaging, but they can give you better positioning.

IF they don't DI right, down throw to aether can rack up some damage. But, it can also be airdodged, leaving you vulnerable. With the weaknesses his jab has on some characters, a grab can often be a better way to 'punish' them and NOT get yourself an up B to the face.

As with most characters, though, there isn't much you can do to follow up on it. Aside form the occasional Aether, which isn't too common against someone good.

Still, it can provide much needed breathing space if, say, a metaknight is all up in your grill, and you can't get away enough to space properly. It can allow you to get back on a good defensive.
----
On the past two moves...
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Eruption. Eh... I never get any use out of it. Falling eruption is pretty bad. They see it coming, wait, and punish you after.

Some of the other uses posted, using it to catch an expected air dodge seems interesting. I'll need to try that out. But overall... I've learned to avoid it. Way to situational.

Down tilt has uses? News to me. F-tilt is better in every way imaginable. No one is getting spiked by this.
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up B'd Jabs
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Can someone try this? Have Marth do the up B thing (Powershield single jab), but have Ike hold shield while jabbing. His Shield come sup ASAP, and I'm wondering it it's fast enough to block the attack.
---

Also, how much better are you guys finding Ike is offline, as opposed to online? I'm finding I have much more success offline at tournaments than online. It's like the improved timing allows me to hit more often. Especially when I do F-Smashes/tilts to punish poor decisions. They just seem to work better online. Anyone else noticing this?

Definitely. I find him much better offline. But somethings are also easier. Case in point, jabs are MUCH more effective. Sometimes if you predict right, F-smashes are more effective since the lag prevents them from doing something ASAP. More missed airdodges on your U-air and U-smash...

I use Diddy online though, Bananas WRECK when you can't catch them, so I've pretty much neglected online Ike.

 

[Ussi]

Ike is not terrible without throws, you're just limiting your choices in what to do and leaving your self open to attacks out of shields. Throws make your opponent think twice about abusing the shield. Also this shows you how much dodging is important. but you don't have to throw the person, you could head butt them till they break free.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Headbutting could be an interesting option when they're at high damage. You'd get me damage than a throw, and since it's higher damage, there's pretty much nothing you could do out of the throw anyway.

But at low percents, they usually get out before you can get more than 2 headbutts in, so a throw is usually equal to or better damage wise.

 

[VersatileBJN]

When I said throw I meant grabbing in general which includes headbutting, but ok. If you think Ike would be able to win without grabs then I respect that

 

[Ussi]

its possible, when you learn how to aim nair and fair to strike a person's shield then land BEHIND them, it limits what they can do out of the shield. My replacement to throws.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I don't grab often really. Given my success with Aethers out of shields, I haven't really needed to. Though, I'm apparently the ONLY one getting success with that. *laughs nervously*

Shield-grabs are the only time I really grab, and it almost always followed with F-Throw to give space. I just want the to back the hell off most of the time.

And am I the only one consistently getting Dolphin Slashed in the face when I try to jab? Must be the people I play against... the same ones that fall for my Aethers... interesting...

 

[Wolt]

You must fight some pretty messed up opponents Trebor, I am curious on your ability to get good Aethers out of your shield that actually connect. I have never had anyone Up-B me with any character during a jab. They'll either shield through the whole thing, or *ShieldspotdodgeShield*. My success with throws varies, as I'm just not the kind to use his throws. Like it was earlier said, his range on a grab is horrible, and I just never think, "Dang I gotta use this and that to put him in perfect positioning for a grab!" It just isn't his best option to work with, and theres usually something better to do. Although they are far from useless.

 

[fire_wulf]

I don't get hit by ^B's while i'm jabbing. I guess my friends and i never ^B out of moves cuz we find it way too punishable.

Throws:
I find the grabs to be a vital part of Ike's game.. i use it to turn the game around in my favor....or to link moves and keep damage racking.

I normally only back throw because my friends always fight for center and i am normally near edge. going into bair or dtilt scare.. or dair attempt. Just basically edge guard if your not aggressive enough to go for the spike.
I have started using down throw to combo with aether.. or uair.. or utilt.. or even SH nair.
The forward throw gets rarely used.... but when i do i normally follow with a forward tilt.
I never use the up throw.. but after seeing the one post about the moves that are viable afterward... i might have to use it more.

 

[thenightsshadow]

I commonly get reversed by Samus Up-B with every character I main except Sonic.
Question is, do I have to tip-point my attacks so that I don't get in the path of the Screw Attacks?
Or rather, how do I bait and punish?

 

[nitro-blazer]

Remember this thread isn't talking about matches against your friends. It's talking about high level tournament play... Which is where this kind of stuff would be much more prevalent. Ask yourselves if your friends even know about these techniques, first of all, and secondly, if they have the skill to pull it off.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

You must fight some pretty messed up opponents Trebor, I am curious on your ability to get good Aethers out of your shield that actually connect. I have never had anyone Up-B me with any character during a jab. They'll either shield through the whole thing, or *ShieldspotdodgeShield*. My success with throws varies, as I'm just not the kind to use his throws. Like it was earlier said, his range on a grab is horrible, and I just never think, "Dang I gotta use this and that to put him in perfect positioning for a grab!" It just isn't his best option to work with, and theres usually something better to do. Although they are far from useless.

The issue with Aether is that it combos into itself only when there is a fair distance between you and your opponent.

Given this, only select characters will actually be in the right range to use it, namingly Marth, Zamus etc. If they aren't far enough away, the first hit won't connect right and they won't be launched upward. So, I guess this MIGHT explain why it works for me, as I have that spacing down almost perfectly.

That might explain it...?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Nitro it doesnt take much skill to keep pressing Up B to test if it interrupt jabs lolz. Besides, the friend who did it certainly can pull off something so simple.

Treb I would just get out of the habit of doing that in general. Making Ike that unsafe just for a little damage isn't worth it fo sho.

Where's Hostility and Kirk for throw discussion?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

im not sure if i have this right or not and i kind of feel like im being ignored like that other guy but don't trows work as mind games because i used to use the down or up trow and follow up with an aether and eventually people i fight started learning how to dodge it especially other ikes they always dodge this so now i trow them up and follow with an uair or bair. but now im going to start saving my down trow since versitile said that it can k0 at high percentages. i already knew that but i always 4get that using a move more often makes it weaker.

for back trow i usually follow up with a smash if i am near the edge this seems to work pretty well if they don't sweetspot i think is what you call it i dont have very many brawl terms down.

as for foward trow i hardly use it because i try and push people towards the edge then side step behind them and grab out of the shield but i think i might start trying to use it more since using the same move makes it weaker.

 

[J.rudolph]

VersatileBJN i want to play your ike against my dedede and see who wins im not worried about ike's b or his down tilt so i want to see what you can really do against a good dedede player.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Chill status.

Gimie your aim, and where are you located?

RoK the Reaper updates on page 1.

EDIT: Mobile? I hope you don't mean mobile alabama. Epic lag bruh

 

[3xSwords]

At like 0% I do a down or up throw into a SH neutral air. Always gets them, because it lasts long enough so even if they air dodge it hits them. Never tried ground stalking but its probably the best option. This was talked about in the tactical discussions where characters could pull of moves after opponents breaks free of their grab. If you keep pummeling them the enemy can only break free by sliding across the ground, and it can set up for certain moves. For Ike I think you can chain this into a jab combo, and I don't know more than that. Maybe a dash attack or SH aerial setup? Anyway I use d-throw most of the time, I mean leave the throw kills to the psy kids.

 

[XSilvenX]

I commonly get reversed by Samus Up-B with every character I main except Sonic.
Question is, do I have to tip-point my attacks so that I don't get in the path of the Screw Attacks?
Or rather, how do I bait and punish?

....it's not you, it's Samus. She's had that since Melee. Hitting her shield is pretty much asking for an upb out of shield..if the opponent is daring enough that is. Sometimes they mistime it though and you get lucky. If they spam it and you know they do it alot then try to bait it. It may be hard though since sometimes I try to jab to grab with Ike and people shieldgrab me way before my initial jab is withdrawn so I would assume Samus can do the same and upb way before you get a chance to shield. I don't know :-\

Your only real option is probably to get better at spacing because Samus can only get the upb when you're pretty much inside of her . Inside of her...

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

At like 0% I do a down or up throw into a SH neutral air. Always gets them, because it lasts long enough so even if they air dodge it hits them. Never tried ground stalking but its probably the best option. This was talked about in the tactical discussions where characters could pull of moves after opponents breaks free of their grab. If you keep pummeling them the enemy can only break free by sliding across the ground, and it can set up for certain moves. For Ike I think you can chain this into a jab combo, and I don't know more than that. Maybe a dash attack or SH aerial setup? Anyway I use d-throw most of the time, I mean leave the throw kills to the psy kids.

I've wondered about this myself. I will test it today. I'm most curious about the f-tilt in this situation... I'll get back to you as soon as I can.


Edit: Okay, I've tested, all character drop in front of Ike the same distance. However, smaller character tend to be so small to target effectively. The Jab SEEMS to be the only move that will come out fast enough to hit an opponent before they react. I'll test this more thoroughly this afternoon.

 

[xYz]

VERSA!
update the first page with the Will combo!!

 

[Whiteface]

Ahhhh... Ike's throws. Well by now i'm sure everyone knows about the D-throw to aether. A good combo but everyone also knows by now how to DI out of it. I try to follow up with an instant running attack if they DI forwards (By instant running attack I mean pressing forward on the analog and down on the C-stick at the same time.) This seems to work well, but it also depends on damage and character as well.

 

[Kirk]

I'm not good enough to be posting here...but screw the rules.

Throws:

I find it hard to get grabs, besides shield grabbing because the range is just too small. Pummel is decent, nothing too special. Now for the actual throws:

Upthrow: My least favorite. It's slow, it doesn't send them very high, and it has the most post lag of all his throws, making it very useless to follow up on, if your opponent isn't stupid. I NEVER use this one.

DownThrow: Better than upthrow. Much less lag after so you are able to follow up with other attacks. Can combo into aether or another aerial at lower percents...but usually opponents aren't stupid and DI properly, so it doesn't work all the time. It is also Ike's best knockback throw...can kill effectively at 200% maybe slightly less. Hopefully it shouldn't come to this...if you have trouble killing someone at that high of a percent...there is something wrong there.

Fthrow/Bthrow: My most used throws. They are both quick, almost no lag after the throw, and sets you up with options to punish your opponent.

--If they don't do anything --> Grab them again, repeat.
--If they spot dodge --> Can get them with any attack really. If you're expecting it, you can time a smash or another grab on them.
--If they roll backwards --> Upsmash can cover both behind and infront of you, if you don't know if they'll spotdodge or roll backwards.
--If they jump --> I like to jump up with them and Bair. It's quick enough to get the job done. Or even upsmash to scare them some more.
--If they attack you --> Usually the best option is to SH Fair or Nair. With the space they cover it's usually safe.

Basically, it's just a prediction game. It is Ike's closest thing to a tech chasing game...I know it's not that at all, but it's the closest thing he's got. Just read/guess your opponent and punish them for w/e they choose to do.

Other things to do with Fthrow/Bthrow:

--Near ledges: Throw them off to set up for the edgeguard. One thing I like to do is just fall off the ledge immediately and Fair. It surprises them since it comes out so quick and can kill at the right percent (or gimp if they used their second jump right away, but that depends on who you're fighting). You will have just enough to get back to the stage with your double jump and aether. Just be sure you don't miss, you could get edgehogged.

--Against a wall: Fthrow them to death. Time it right they can't get out. If you're facing the wrong way, Bthrow will set it up with no problems, you can regrab them easily. I usually finish with an uptilt kill, but feel free to do w/e.

Sorry if I'm biased, but Fthrow has the best potential for Ike imo.

 

[3xSwords]

Nice Kirk. I used to love f-throw -> f-throw -> dash attack on bridge of eldin, because they would always get hit off for a cheap kill. But now they just jump away from it. Guess I'm just lazy with the tech chasing game sometimes. But Kirk any advice for the tech chasing game, like do you decide what you are going to do and commit or do you react to what they do? And about f-throw I consider it as good as d-throw, b/c with the d-throw you can ground stalk them. Funny thing in Brawl is that if you are above the opponent you have a disadvantage most of the time, contrary to games involving strategy where elevation is usually a good thing.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Good stuff Kirk. Differing opinions but its kewl. I personally don't think up throw only works on stupid opponents, but ok

Throw will be done tonight. I'll prolly put up the next move of the day around 8 or 9

 

[Kirk]

It's best to do it a few times and see what your opponent does. Learn his patterns and tendencies so you can better predict what he'll do next time. If you have a good reaction time, by all means, wait to see what he does. Get up close and wait for a spot dodge or roll dodge or w/e and then punish accordingly. Whatever you feel is best to do.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Also guys, since up and down throw work so similarly, you can easily apply my up throw advice to down throw if you don't care about saving that for high percentage KOs .

 

[xYz]

my views on throws

down throw - N/A
upthrow - N/A
backthrow- N/A

FTHROW- DING DING DING!!
fthrow should be the most used throw for many reasons, kirk named all of them. Listen to him, hes top tier.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I agree with Kirk, F-Throw has the most potential for "tech-chasing" though its not really tech chasing. =P

Ike is naturally built on punishment, and the F-throw gives you the most options to punish with. Kirk went over that game rather well.

On the topic of breaking my habit of Aethering out of shields, what do you guys suggest other than the grab? Nothing seems quite as beefy as the Aether out of the shield...

Also, my research into "pummeling" as opposed to throwing. It's quite effective on many of the bigger characters to pummel and simply follow with a Jab, which we all know what we can do from there. if you're good enough at prediction, or your opponent doesn't catch on fast enough, you can potentially Grab->Pummel->Jab->Grab->etc until you run out of stage. That could build quite a bit of damage safely. I can't get anything else to work fast enough out of the pummel to work. >.>

 

[J.rudolph]

versatile bjn-
i hope that post didnt offend you in any way.
that was my freind who posted that post.
if you happen to find him on the boards he's LKP1.
i really didnt think he would do it


anyway i really dont use ike but my freind ragnorock uses him and i dont no if
anyone has discoverd it but ike has an almost infinte chainthrow thingy on
wall stages mainly shadow moses.

i dont have video but it was simply

grab-f.throw.a. repeat

 

[3xSwords]

I still think d-throw ground stalking can be just as effective as f-throw tech chasing. In my opinion ground stalking is easier b/c in brawl, like I already said, being above your opponent is generally a bad thing, b/c your options are much more limited. Thus its easier to ground stalk b/c your opponent has fewer options so it is easier to predict.

 

[Kirk]

Jabbing out of shield is the quickest thing Ike can do as opposed to shield grabbing if they are in front of you. You can either do the full 3 hits or do 1-2 hits and follow up with a grab. If you're looking for something 'beefy,' you could possibly do an ftilt or uptilt out of shield, depending on spacing. I haven't done this myself, but I suppose it's a possibility. But if they're behind and you're in shield, I usually opt for a SH Bair.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I still think d-throw ground stalking can be just as effective as f-throw tech chasing. In my opinion ground stalking is easier b/c in brawl, like I already said, being above your opponent is generally a bad thing, b/c your options are much more limited. Thus its easier to ground stalk b/c your opponent has fewer options so it is easier to predict.

I wouldn't recommend ground stalking against G&W personally. That key has brutally good priority (I've seen it go through my U-air and U-tilts way to many times...). That's probably an exception though, not the rule. ^^

 

[thewiredknight]

Personally I find dthrow the most useful. I almost never use bthrow or uthrow. Fthrow is good since you can chase after the opponent but the reason I like dthrow is that it sends the opponent directly aboke Ike providing plenty of time to follow it up with his air game; principally I like following it with Bair, it's not that long of a combo but it does good damage and has pretty good knockback if you want to shift back into a defensive game.

 

[Ussi]

counter the key when you see it coming >.> he has a small start up time on his key. all fast dairs people have it, just if you see it coming you can react fast enough.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

counter the key when you see it coming >.> he has a small start up time on his key. all fast dairs people have it, just if you see it coming you can react fast enough.

I love you. =)



Kirk, I tried your advice for a "beefy" attack out of the shield. U-tilt is amazing, I suggest everyone should at least try it. Its quick, powerful attributes are great as a counter. It's also long enough that many characters that "space" are close enough to hit. ^^

 

[bobwhiz]

Hey everyone, great work on the throws, and thanks for the comments on counter and the SHed Eruption. I'll take it into advice. The aerials seem to be the way to go.

Quick question to anyone close enough to a Wii and a decent player to test it on...
how does - Grab- Pummel-Pummel-Regrab work? Does it rack up damage nicely? Or is this something relegated to Marth v. Lucas

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

It's along the same ground's, except Ike has a poor reach with his grab, so often have to move to get it down, so it's not as reliable. Something that can work if you're opponent doesn't expect/know how to get out of it. =P