Seeds of Knowledge: Ivysaur Frame Data thread

[bubbaking]

I wonder if we can true combo FSJ>DAir mid air. Don't have a set-up to test it on atm. :[

What's FSJ? I'm trying to keep track of all char-specific abbreviations in my thread:
Terms, Abbreviations, and Concepts

 

[JOE!]

Foot stool jump.

Also, ill take that to the social.

 

[bubbaking]

As for the FSJ>UAir meteor, I was thinking about it some because I've been thinking about ways to set up FSJ with Ivy but any thing we have that leads in to FSJ would rely on bad DI.

Perhaps it could be done out of dthrow at low-mid %'s?

Edit: Depending on bad DI, of course. I would think a lot of things in Smash depend on bad DI, though.

 

[JOE!]

Next on the agenda:

• do stuff from the to-do lsit
• go through each move and note down common uses / possible common KO %'s
• any suggestions that people toss at me between now and then

 

[bubbaking]

Do you think you could possibly go over Ivy's jump squat data? That would be really useful.

 

[roymaster803]

Like this thread. The grab info was surprising. Never new dash grab was fastest output. I always new pivot was quickest frame wise though. I feel like standing grab almost isn't needed. It has it's place though. Good stuff.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, without standing grabs, Ivy won't have a shieldgrab. Ivy's grabs are very similar to Samus' grabs in that the dash/pivot grabs are overall faster than the standing grab. However, Samus' grabs all have different ranges. From what I'm seeing, this isn't the case with Ivy.

 

[JOE!]

Due to the blizzard, I have time off work and school!

Added:

Damage on Seed Bomb
New Heal data on Synthesis
Dodges
Jump squat
Landing Lag

 

[Ace55]

Dude I'm tripping balls right now.

Oh wait it's just Ivy's f/bair.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm trying to figure out whether this character is OK or just really bad (compared to Top Tier). I can barely make her work, but then I have friends who make her look amazing.....sometimes. Iota showed some cool stuff, until I figured out that Ivy doesn't have an answer to shield pressure or being combo'd. Oh yeah, what's up with that? A friend of mine (DuckPimp/Flamingo) who mains Ivy pointed it out and now I always see it. Ivy's combo'd to heck and back once she gets hit!

#Ranting

 

[Sudai]

NAir out of shield works some times. I usually just WD back OoS though. USmash OoS catches people off guard but it's super situation.

I found out something kind of neat with Ivy today. Not super useful but I'm sure someone will use it at some point. Crawl backwards to the edge of a stage or platform. If you keep crawling you will stay there but if you shield you'll fall off the stage immediately without your shield deploying. The issue there is you go in to the tumble state that you would ah if you were pushed off a ledge with your shield up. I played with this some more and found out that all it takes to cause the fall is to return to our standing animation. That means if you just let the control stick reset to neutral you fall straight down and can immediately BAir OR grab the ledge. It's nice as an edge guard mix-up to force them to up-b early but you're also limiting yourself a lot to set this up so iunno. Figured I'd post it to see if anyone can turn it in to something awesome.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, she's rather bad against a good chunk of the cast.

 

[bubbaking]

I found out something kind of neat with Ivy today. Not super useful but I'm sure someone will use it at some point. Crawl backwards to the edge of a stage or platform. If you keep crawling you will stay there but if you shield you'll fall off the stage immediately without your shield deploying. The issue there is you go in to the tumble state that you would ah if you were pushed off a ledge with your shield up. I played with this some more and found out that all it takes to cause the fall is to return to our standing animation. That means if you just let the control stick reset to neutral you fall straight down and can immediately BAir OR grab the ledge. It's nice as an edge guard mix-up to force them to up-b early but you're also limiting yourself a lot to set this up so iunno. Figured I'd post it to see if anyone can turn it in to something awesome.

I don't see how this is too limiting, tbh. Having access to an instant drop-off like this is pretty good. My friend, John12346, discovered a very similar tactic with Zard for 2.1 (he steps backwards to breathe fire or something so if you roll to the edge, you can make him 'step off' and he'll grab the ledge) which was removed for 2.5, but he used it pretty well to get edgehogs. He was bad at WDing, so odds are he used it as a substitute and I can see this tech being used similarly, but even if that isn't the case, remember the Marth Killer in Melee? This isn't identical, but it seems similar. Instant bairs are also really cool, and I'd imagine that this move could also be used to set up dairs at the ledge. Crawl backwards > instant dair to cover the ledge sounds pretty good if you ask me. Nice find!

 

[Sudai]

Well I say it's limiting because you have to face and crawl backwards in order to do it. In your roll example we'd have to roll, then crawl backwards then stop which is probably still pretty fast. Iunno, I guess limiting wasn't really the right word, more something that won't get used super often.

 

[Ace55]

I found out something kind of neat with Ivy today. Not super useful but I'm sure someone will use it at some point. Crawl backwards to the edge of a stage or platform. If you keep crawling you will stay there but if you shield you'll fall off the stage immediately without your shield deploying.

I noticed this with Wario and Bowser so I'm guessing it works with every crawler. Didn't find any use for it though.

 

[Sudai]

Yeah I actually tried it out with shiek and zss and it works for them as well.

 

[bubbaking]

The official Project M site clearly states that fair can be used to gimp opponents, but how do you gimp anyone with hotboxes that ONLY point upwards?

Edit: Upon closer inspection, I found the 'gimping hitboxes', but they're right in front of Ivysaur's face, and they STILL point mostly upwards (so they can be DI'd so that you go flying upwards instead of outwards, aiding your recovery against Ivy). If this move is supposed to actually be good at gimping people, shouldn't the 'gimping hitboxes' be closer to the tips of the move? This move is kinda.....wacky.

 

[JOE!]

Well crap, no more collapse tags? OP looks derp now...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

There aren't character icons either



See.

Video thread looks really dumb now too

 

[JOE!]

well, fixed the collapse tags, it's "spoiler" now

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's a speed modifier of 1.5 on/past Frame 30 of Forward-B, so the endlag is actually something like 23-43.

 

[bubbaking]

well, fixed the collapse tags, it's "spoiler" now

I hope you changed them back.

 

[JOE!]

Son of a...

 

[Sudai]

I took care of it for you. I'm not technically a mod of the Ivy forums or anything the Ivy forums are under but I figure this isn't too big a deal for me to change since for some reasons all mods are mods everywhere on the new forum.

 

[chenjesu]

I wish the standing up-b had those sweet bulb frames that the aerial up-b has.

 

[bubbaking]

I just discovered something with Ivy's (failed) tether that's EXTREMELY similar to a specific Samus tether tech in Melee. In Melee, Samus could perform something called the Instant Rising Grapple Cancel. If you tether too close to the stage, you enter freefall without actually tethering anything (the tether is cancelled). However, since you can AD before the tether, you can AD up a curved surface and then tether against the stage during the first few frames of the AD. The tether will be cancelled, but Samus will be flung waaay up (distance depends on how soon into the AD you tethered) in 'freefall' (more like 'freerise' ), during which she can land onstage with practically NO landing lag or grab the ledge. It's a great recovery mix-up that actually covers, I'd say, at least twice the vertical distance that her screw attack covers.

This tech is probably one of the biggest Samus-specific reasons (I have a ton of general reasons that apply to everyone) I prefer Melee tethers over the current P:M/vBrawl ones.

Ivy can do something similar to what Samus can do using apparently similar mechanics. If you use Ivy competitively, you should know by now that upB causes Ivy to 'hop' upwards, even if she's already expended her DJ. This could be seen as akin to the AD before Melee Samus' tether. Now, have you noticed how, if you try to tether the stage from 'within range' but below and a little 'past' the ledge (the best way I can describe this is against an inwardly curved/slanted slope under and a little 'behind' the ledge instead of 'in front' of it), Ivy's upB is just cancelled? It seems like she suffers the same thing when she tries to tether from juuuuust past max range, but it's much easier to do consistently in the scenario I'm presenting (also more applicable). You can probably see what I'm getting at by now. By initiating an upB while hugging a slanted/curved side of a stage, you can get a fairly large jump upwards (the slant accentuates the otherwise 'small' hop that the upB gives) and Ivy can grab the ledge directly out of this jump. As of now, I've only tested this out extensively on FD, but the tech can be done consistently and EASILY. It seems potentially useful for enlarging the angles Ivy can use to recover on stages with sloped/slanted sides (FD, FoD, etc).

To clarify further, I find Ivy somewhat easy to edgeguard now because her upB tether is easily intercepted by select members of the cast. Long lasting hitboxes, like sex kicks or, funnily enough, Ivy's bair, are really good at knocking her out of it. All one has to do is place a hitbox between her and the ledge. The tether's angles are too predictable. By having an additional recovery avenue on certain stages, Ivy could possibly mix up her recovery more than she currently can, allowing her to dodge such simple edgeguards. I still have to test this tech more extensively in actual practice.

Btw, I doubt that I was the first to discover this, but I haven't seen anyone post about it, so here it is. It just caught my eye because it was extremely similar to Samus' Instant Rising Grapple Cancel (a.k.a. High Jump).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Air meteors puts grounded opponents into the air at these percents:

Mario: 85%
Luigi: 85%
Peach: 81%
Bowser: 93%
Wario: 88%
Donkey Kong: 91%
Diddy Kong: 78%
Captain Falcon: 87%
Link: 87%
Toon Link: 78%
Zelda: 81%
Sheik: 81%
Ganondorf: 89%
Fox: 74%
Falco: 76%
Wolf: 78%
Zero Suit Samus: 78%
Pikachu: 76%
Jigglypuff: 67%
Lucario: 85%
Squirtle: 77%
Ivysaur: 78%
Charizard: 90%
Ness: 82%
Lucas: 76%
Marth: 79%
Ike: 87%
King Dedede: 91%
Pit: 76%
R.O.B.: 88%
Mr. Game and Watch: 72%
Snake: 87%
Sonic: 77%

Depending on the fall speed of the opponent, you can reliably follow up with Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, or a footstool. Unfortunately, it can be CC'd until absolutely bonkers percents, so that limits its usefulness.

 

[bubbaking]

Can't the meteor also be DI'd? Or is the pop-up so small that DI hardly affects anything?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The difference created by DI is really small to the point where it shouldn't substantially change things for most characters.

 

[Swann]

Images be broken. Dunno if it's just me but I'd recommend something better than photobucket at the very least

EDIT: yeah, it was just me. Got back home and things are fine. Connection at my friend's place must've just been weird.

 

[Sudai]

They work fine for me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was thinking about new footstool opportunities and came up with something a couple days ago that I was able to use during my first tournament match yesterday.

The tip of F-Air sends people straight up. If you're moving forward with it (either close or in a running fullhop), you can footstool, reset them with U-Air, then get a free U-Smash or setup move (grab, D-Air) if they don't tech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8YeHz1--ek#t=16s

 

[standardtoaster]

dammit reflex those footstools

 

[TheReflexWonder]

At least it only works at a certain percent range (40-70% before the F-Air on most characters). Thankfully, the higher end of that KOs most characters.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Is there any timeline for when 2.6 frame data will be available for public use?

 

[JOE!]

I can get it as soon as I'm home from this wedding.

Sorry I haven't been active, real life and lack of ability to play pm got in the way

 

[bubbaking]

JOE, do you think you can document how much % it takes to charge Solarbeam now? It looks to me like it takes some amount over 20% to fully charge it, whereas I seem to recall that it used to take some amount under 20% to do so in 2.5b. Also, the grabs seem to be a bit different...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It was 18% in 2.5 and is 22% in 2.6. Grab pummel still heals 1% but only deals 2% damage each time.

 

[JOE!]

Hey, I know a while back I said I'd be updating this, but life got in the way / etc.

To make things easier: does anybody know for sure which moves got changed so I don't need to go through all of them?

 

[Ogopogo]

I was thinking about new footstool opportunities and came up with something a couple days ago that I was able to use during my first tournament match yesterday.

That reminds me... how do you do a footstool in PM? Was it up-taunt?