Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[Leafplayer452]

Well from what my experience in the match up tells me, its 40:60 Marth

When Sheik ftilt locks Marth, at the point when Marth's 'private region' is right in front of Sheik's face, Marth (I think) can up B out of the ftilt lock.

But always remember that in this matchup Sheik has a projectile advantage.

And I suggest nobody uses the chain in this matchup

 

[<π]

dtilt < dash attack and needles

frame 7 on dtilt is neat when you consider the range and low cool down, but it still has but it's yet another one of marth's moves that can be dash attacked OOS. it's also crazy easy to needle the move on reaction when people try and use that as a spacer and whiff.

 

[<π]

Well from what my experience in the match up tells me, its 40:60 Marth

When Sheik ftilt locks Marth, at the point when Marth's 'private region' is right in front of Sheik's face, Marth (I think) can up B out of the ftilt lock.

But always remember that in this matchup Sheik has a projectile advantage.

And I suggest nobody uses the chain in this matchup

Marth can upB out of it at lower percents since ftilt doesn't truely combo into itself until like... what 40s-50s or something? Thats why characters with faster aerials can get out at lower percents and why snake can pull nades out during it.


double posts are neat.

 

[Steel]

You won't be punishing a spaced dtilt unless you power shield it. It won't happen. You'll most likely just run into another dtilt, dancing blade or fair.

You place way too much emphasis on needles. You make it seem like it's something devastating to get hit by one needle every now and then. Because you and I both know you won't have them fully charged for all these scenarios.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i was playing with my marth today. and i used his jab to ftilt to pressure the heck out of my opponent into a usmash. it was very effective.. but this is not a marth board. marth probably has that option to pressure sheik . but sheik has way better pressure game. but NEO his marth's spacing is flawless offline. you can't k/o it.

 

[<π]

they are devastating fully charged or not even three damage every time you miss an attack starts to build up, lol.

I was wrong dash attack OOS doesn't work on this move or a perfect fair either. Forgot about the time it takes to drop shield...

 

[<π]

i was playing with my marth today. and i used his jab to ftilt to pressure the heck out of my opponent into a usmash. it was very effective.. but this is not a marth board. marth probably has that option to pressure sheik . but sheik has way better pressure game. but NEO his marth's spacing is flawless offline. you can't k/o it.

jab and ftilt against what character?

 

[iLight]

@using dacus to punish d-tilt, its not that hard really. while marth's second d-tilt or whatever he feels like throwing out after that other than upB will come out fast, sheik's dacus does have a tiny hitbox in front of it and will clink with it. Its the same as going it to punish ROB's d-tilt. You just walk away from them if they are going to try to spam it and time it so that right as he finishes one he eats a dacus to the face, like i said i'll try to post some videos of sheik vs marth and anyone else you guys feel like i've made improper statements about, i would love to improve in all of my match ups as much as you guys. I'm in no way perfect in any way

 

[Steel]

That's probably the least safe thing I've ever heard of. You'd have to predict precisely when he is going to dtilt, if he even does.

 

[iLight]

like i said i only do that when someone starts spamming it and most of the time the dacus ends up hitting them as they are about to stop and continue approaching

 

[choknater]

i'd rather just run in and shield grab haha 2 good

 

[iLight]

well, i recorded some matches yesterday, but none of them were really that hot, aka neither bear nor I was playing that well, we will probably try again today, so I can illustrate the problems of the match up

anyways, you guys can continue on with other match ups in the mean time if no one else has anything to add, we can always just come back to this later

 

[saviorslegacy]

In my little bit experience I find the following to help.


NEEDLES!!!! I cannot stress how important it is to use Needles in this match up. Marth has little options against these since he cannot air dodge them and destroy them with Fair/f-tilt. Just about his only option is to full hop approach/bring up his shield.

Always remember when fighting a Marth that he can escape almost every sombo you throw at him with Dolphin Slash. So when performing a combo/f-tilt lock keep in mind when he can escape, shield and then punish him.

 

[choknater]

Full hop to get away from needles is a good option though. He doesn't HAVE to approach. It takes a long time to fully charge the needles and Marth can still space well enough to prevent full charges even if he is full hopping.

pplz dont overestimate needles though they ARE very good, u have to charge and use them at the right moments instead of relying on them

 

[Steel]

people focus way too much on needles, severely limiting your sheik's capabilities. running away to charge them isn't effective. running away in general isn't effective.

 

[<π]

why not?

 

[Steel]

maybe i over did it by saying "not effective," i mean it's brawl. but when you apply this to sheik it isn't as good as having a good offense imo. you miss a lot of opportunities

steel2nd (5:30:04 PM): while running can be effective
steel2nd (5:30:06 PM): its just
steel2nd (5:30:14 PM): not as good because you miss opportunities
steel2nd (5:30:16 PM): to attack
steel2nd (5:30:20 PM): and win
NEO (5:33:42 PM): yea
NEO (5:33:44 PM): and it's boring
NEO (5:33:48 PM): and you look like a ****ing ***
NEO (5:33:49 PM): and brawl sucks

 

[rathy Aro]

what would you suggest instead of running and charging needles? because I am personally tired of getting punished for following up certain characters like wario and luigi for example (both on which needles seem to work well). Needles (and most projectiles) don't really work too well on marth, but that's because he's marth. In this case I agree with you but overall I think needles are pretty ****.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i wish the olimar match up discussion appears soon....

 

[<π]

I got the opportunity to hang out with zelda master timmy, one of neo students, at the last gigs. We actually talked on this subject. It seemed to me NEO's idea of a constant rush down was more preference than anything. "It's boring and you look like an ***" seems to lend more toward the same idea.

That said I was being an *** more than anything and was just out to prove a point. You can't get "punished at all if you aren't there. That we can all agree to. My playstyle I'd guess isn't too far off from the ones you describe I pressure with bair jab and tilts while wait for opening or just flat out sheild poking if that opening doesn't present itself. When my opponent doesn't comit to a fight instead of sloppily approaching and fighting on their terms I remind them I have the option of dealing 18 more damage next time they look at me the wrong way.
it's not like chargeing needles is a full time job, it takes what, 7-8 frames to start and another 6-7 to stop. You can mind game needles in mid rush if you feel like it and not be in a position where you'll be easily punished.
but agian, running to charge won't cost you anything but time, and it's not like you don't gain anything in return.

 

[stealth3654]

Ok, it seems we are done discussing the Marth match-up.

Up next is Wario.

Discuss!!!

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i thought we do olimar...

 

[<π]

wario! YES!

Needles **** this match up since wario loves aerial approaches.
You out range and out speed him on the ground and in the air, but he will beat most of your stuff spare I think strong bair.

he is easy to grab. and because of needle presure he has to approach you, so grab release kills are a breaze on most levels.

 

[choknater]

i disagree that he is easy to grab, but if u can, more power to you, because GR kills at like 100 or something, too good

needle when he touches the ground, but the true air campy non-approaching warios are hard to needle even when they hit the ground, they sidestep and shield and stuff

i think when he is jumping around a lot, you should also jump around a lot too, because sheik's vertical speed is fast and can actually catch wario off guard if he is above you and you immediately full hop bair or uair unexpectedly

that's one of the only ways to hit him IMO

other than that, get most of your damage with needles and kill with random uairs or GR->usmash

those are the main tools, it's just harder to grab him than you think

(unless the wario approaches too much, then it's smooth sailing)

grab release ftilt is great, so are grab release nair and grab release fair

that's only if you wanna save ur usmash knockback cuz ur usmash does the most damage

you can go grab release ftilt nair, damage is great as well

lol better yet

grab release ftilt usmash

anyway........ getting grabs is hard in the first place so dont rely on grab releases. im just saying the options once u get the opportunity

 

[PhantomX]

*sigh* Why are we even doing this one again? We tried it like a month or two ago and it was a disaster. This matchup, from my experience with Light (though he usually plays me super late and not at his peak) and Sethlon (before he dropped Sheik), boils down to Wario gimping and grab ****** you.

Your moves speed doesn't even matter much when he can grab armor or bite you out of all of them (this is my primary damage building against Sheik)... your grabs are not easy to land, we can hold away from you at all times... if you jab cancel we're out of grab range, so you have to predict our next action.

Wario can gimp Sheik surprisingly easily as well, and if she makes it to the edge, it's very easy to just prevent her from getting on the ground again. Needles will hit once in a while, but are really less effective than you guys make them out to be. Your nair is super lame. I think I die more times to the Sheik players predicting my approach and UP+Bing than I do to them grab releasing me.

It's not Sheik's advantage, but I won't go so far as to say it's Wario's advantage either.

 

[stealth3654]

How well does Sheik gimp Wario?

i thought we do olimar...

Sorry Cross. I didn't know how many people wanted to discuss the Olimar match-up, so I just continued with Wario. We'll do Olimar next .

 

[PhantomX]

Sheik can gimp the Wario if he's reckless and bikes too close to the stage, and/or not very low or high. She has to use fairs though (or needles that hit Wario), b/c if you bair he can DI them up in which case he'll just get closer to the stage and/or eventually get his bike back. It's not common, but it's possible.

 

[Steel]

BUT THE CHAI......


nevermind

 

[PhantomX]

I will KILL you with my fists, girl or trap.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

YOU TROLL GET OUT OF OUR SHEIK THREAD...


chain, it *****, they are stupid enough to di towards it, they use a bike, chain ***** bike, they use air attacks, chain ***** airs. chain locks. charge your needles, when spacing, because hes going to try to bite you and miss. so you have a free 18% ftilt to usmash kills at about 95%. just grab release if you want to or ftilt to usmash.. i rather grab release ftilt decayed into fairs, space with needles . and always use utilt, this ***** warios air game. then when time is right, bait them into a grab then release. or bait into a dacus. or fsmash edge, or dsmash edge. needles offstage ***** warios recovery. tether canceling too. watch out for his farts, bait him into a fart and punish with uair like so. power shield his fsmash so you can get your grab release to usmash. if he uses fsmash.. and misses, prepare for another fsmash. or just foxtrot the other direction into needles. also sidestepping wouldnt be the best solution to his fsmashes. because you might get caught off guard on his 2nd fsmash.

 

[choknater]

lol it is actually very helpful to get a wario player to provide his input since we are very biased

 

[Crossjeremiah]

true. but phantomx is another deal. lol hes going to say wario ***** regardless and he will let our hopes down .

 

[stealth3654]

What do you guys think the match-up ratio is?

I think the best stage to take Wario is to FD, since there is no platforms preventing the GR > up smash and it's easier to camp. I think the worst stage is either battle field, because the platforms get in the way of the GR, and Rainbow Cruise. What do you guys think?

 

[clowsui]

LOL cross shut up, have you ever played a decent wario live?

it's so difficult to grab them

chain is stupid when they can get about 30% damage on you in about two hits and spend the rest of the game airstalling or being gay with their ridiculous defensive options that lead into MORE 12% bs (dair) and from there can make you get into silly situations where you get nair -> fsmashed

chain DOESN'T WORK if they camp + have percent lead.

 

[PhantomX]

WTF!? I'm one of the most unbiased people in matchup discussions that you'll ever meet. I make sure to post strengths and weaknesses of both in matchups and don't provide numbers even, b/c I think it's stupid. Note how I said neither is really advantaged... how does that = Wario *****?

Don't go to BF, you will have a hell of a hard time getting back on stage there. FD or anywhere large and flat are good for you guys, harder for us to get a free pass out of grabs, easier for you to stay on stage, which is what you want. Castle Siege is pretty good for this reason too.

 

[choknater]

it is hard to damage wario, you kinda just have to read his movement and wait till he gets close, then hit with any aerial except dair

wario is usually jumping all over the place, so full hopping a lot with sheik is actually helpful (just don't risk wasting ur second jump then getting hit)

think of it this way: wario is flying around, but obviously he has to go near you to hit you. just charge needles and jump around until you are near him, and whoever makes the more effective attack wins

IMO wario has a pretty good advantage simply because he is so mobile

but i think sheik is fast enough to control quite a bit of space around her, especially if she is full hopping a lot

in this matchup with sheik my favorite moves would probably be needle, uair, and bair

 

[<π]

bair! RAWR! it eats his approaches... I think. lol.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

im just playing phantomx you know i love ya xD
chain does **** when you have use it correctly. wario, has no projectiles so what can he do that defeats the chain.

clowsui shut up ive played slickvick live. so check your facts before you talk. im not going to tell you haven't played anyone notable, because i dont really care. i'm just saying some approaches work and some don't.

 

[iLight]

i think that this match up is 50/50 now, if the sheik just mimicks the warios movement in the air and approaches in the types of ways that wario does, then the only differences are speed, jabs, grab types, recovery. In the end it all balances out if you ask me

 

[clowsui]

im just playing phantomx you know i love ya xD
chain does **** when you have use it correctly. wario, has no projectiles so what can he do that defeats the chain.

clowsui shut up ive played slickvick live. so check your facts before you talk. im not going to tell you haven't played anyone notable, because i dont really care. i'm just saying some approaches work and some don't.

that's all i really needed, thank you

anyways the only part of your post that i was really criticizing was the chain part

the chain is not useful vs. wario if they decide to play campy is all i'm saying. you can't really approach with chain >__>; not to mention it's kind of telegraphed once you start using it more