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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

Crossjeremiah

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thats why you use it like once during the game like last stock or something. jab cancels into other attacks work well against wario. like jab fakes. into fairs or something with spacing of course. dtilt might help you too. uair might help if hes caught off guard.

lol i agree with light, just play gay as they do. and annoy them with 1 needle or 2 needle attacks
 

Zankoku

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I'm going to go with Light's and PhantomX's judgment on this matchup, since the only Midwest Wario representation is in Illinois, and I've never been to Illinois.
 

rathy Aro

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*sigh* Why are we even doing this one again? We tried it like a month or two ago and it was a disaster. This matchup, from my experience with Light (though he usually plays me super late and not at his peak) and Sethlon (before he dropped Sheik), boils down to Wario gimping and grab ****** you.

Your moves speed doesn't even matter much when he can grab armor or bite you out of all of them (this is my primary damage building against Sheik)... your grabs are not easy to land, we can hold away from you at all times... if you jab cancel we're out of grab range, so you have to predict our next action.

Wario can gimp Sheik surprisingly easily as well, and if she makes it to the edge, it's very easy to just prevent her from getting on the ground again. Needles will hit once in a while, but are really less effective than you guys make them out to be. Your nair is super lame. I think I die more times to the Sheik players predicting my approach and UP+Bing than I do to them grab releasing me.

It's not Sheik's advantage, but I won't go so far as to say it's Wario's advantage either.
How is this even? Shouldn't this be like 60-40 Wario at least? I don't see how sheik can go even with someone who gimps her and renders all of her basic tools useless (needles, grab, the speed of her moves!, and nair). Explain please.
 

BRoomer
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needles aren't rendered useless in any match up. time them so that when your opponent hits the ground the needles hit. you have a short period of lag when you land where you can't do anything, that includes shielding. Even if you dodge into the ground and sheild there is still a time period where you are vulnerable to attack.

bite like the grab, takes time to activate. you have to predict when she'll attack (sheiks moves are faster than wario's grab and bite) if you want to take advantage of wario's grab armor. bad predictions will result in needles tilt combos or at the very a dash attack. The opening of bair is disjointed any way so yeah.

and while wario is a ***** to kill... grab usmash *****. I still think wario isn't that difficult to grab, and I know I've played good ones. again landing lag comes into play. with sheik you are fast enough to follow wario's aerial movemengt speed. follow him to where he lands and grab him in that space where he can't throw out and attack and when he has that land lag. it's a heafty window. most warios I've delt with would rather use their second jump than throw out an aerial on the way down, so you are relatively safe. And if you just stay out side of his attack tiny attack range you'll be fine either way. decide on a shield or dodge if he does change direction in the air and gor for an attack. free sheild grab most of the time.
 

rathy Aro

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needles aren't rendered useless in any match up. time them so that when your opponent hits the ground the needles hit. you have a short period of lag when you land where you can't do anything, that includes shielding. Even if you dodge into the ground and sheild there is still a time period where you are vulnerable to attack.

bite like the grab, takes time to activate. you have to predict when she'll attack (sheiks moves are faster than wario's grab and bite) if you want to take advantage of wario's grab armor. bad predictions will result in needles tilt combos or at the very a dash attack. The opening of bair is disjointed any way so yeah.

and while wario is a ***** to kill... grab usmash *****. I still think wario isn't that difficult to grab, and I know I've played good ones. again landing lag comes into play. with sheik you are fast enough to follow wario's aerial movemengt speed. follow him to where he lands and grab him in that space where he can't throw out and attack and when he has that land lag. it's a heafty window. most warios I've delt with would rather use their second jump than throw out an aerial on the way down, so you are relatively safe. And if you just stay out side of his attack tiny attack range you'll be fine either way. decide on a shield or dodge if he does change direction in the air and gor for an attack. free sheild grab most of the time.

Hmmm. I'll let the wario main point out what's wrong with this post....

What I wanna ask is why does it always seem like you're the one advocating for sheik being better than our general consensus? I figures its one of two things: you've brought sheik to a level most of us aren't aware of (I hope its this because I'd love to see sheik progress and I think she deserves some random smash prodigy maining her) or the people you play with aren't that good (I always thought florida smash was at least decent, but you could just live in a bad area). I don't ask this to start an argument, but I want to know if you're good so I can find your vids and see where I can improve.


edit: what name do you go by in tournies anyway? Less than three?
 

BRoomer
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I go by "<3" in tourney I tell the coridinator it is pronounced "Less Than Three". People call me a lot of stuff though, heart, love, etc.

I love that you call me random, lol. I just don't have any vids worth mentioning up. But I've been an active member of the smash comunity for what... 4-5 years now? I've played with Cort and PC chris frequently when I lived in CT. And now I play with some of the best in central FL.

Florida in my opinion is way above the curve from what I see in vids posted up of other regions. And I don't just mean the sheik fights I watch, but in general. Florida's spacing is rediculous, and techinaclly they are very strong as well. We don't make errors or hesitate when there is a hole large enough to punish.

Most sheiks I see approach blindly and are, frankly, luck their opponents don't know what a sheild is yet. Lazy approaches like that cost you stocks down here. But heck maybe that well recived playstyle is why sheik has the laughable title of easiest to grab. when bair is one of the safest moves in the game on sheild connect .

because of my work schedule I don't get to participate in as many tournies as I'd like... I've participated in three brawl tourneis worth mentioning. December gigs, january Gigs and most recently April gigs. In all of my tournements I get knocked out by a high skilled played. In this last case it was a power ranked snake, Lambchops, after a match that went down to very literally the last hit. snake was at 180+ on his last stock when I died to an uptilt in both matches.


EDIT: I learned the wario match up from playing against G-money. You can look up his wario on youtube.
 

PhantomX

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It's not better than slightly advantaged Wario. Gimping her isn't that easy, and she can trick you into grabs from her fast moves as well, and kill you at 110. Needles are always a slight nuisance, and the few times they hit they refresh her moves. Her nair is also a combo breaker.

Also, I don't know if you should be attempting to call Florida superior to TX.
 

JackieRabbit5

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i think the matchup is worse for wario if he isn't experienced in it, since hes jumping around alot u can catch him w/ dacus

but it does strike me as mostly even
 

legion598

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im calling this 55/45 in warios favor shiek has the speed to deal with wario and in some cases the range but she doesnt quite have the priority. Ur best bet is to stay at a mid range and stay just out of his range and punish baited attacks also be aware of warios Bair and its deceptive range. If he goes for his Dair shenanigans just stay out of range and punish but dont do any shield camping because wario eats shields for breakfast............ cloves and cloves of shields.

lets get to marth tho cuz I have some good input on that match up
 

Dr. Hyde

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uhh you just missed Marf.
Not trolling, I've just been trying to read up on what I can about Shiek, for fun.

*walks away from thread*
 

stealth3654

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lets get to marth tho cuz I have some good input on that match up
We already did Marth, but I'll be glad to read your input on the match-up :).

Ok, I guess that's it for Wario. Next up is Olimar, just for Cross ;).

Discuss!!!
 

Crossjeremiah

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dont give us . try not to get pivot grab. i know that. give us indepth knowledge . i know needles work to dash attack then you probably could go from there with ftilt to fair if you have 18%> on them.
 

BRoomer
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lol, it seems like I'm always on the opposite end of things, but oli isn't an easy match up. needles aren't ****. you have good approach options because of oli's unique grab.
But an oli who is spacing well with areials and can read through your approaches with his pivot grab can be hard to get through. Is shNair a viable OOS option?

That said I've had little issue with good oli's with my sheik. But I think it's because they don't understand how to use the tools in the match up more than me having a large match up advantage?
 

Dr. Hyde

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...it's because they don't understand how to use the tools in the match up more than me having a large match up advantage?

What tools, pivot grabs? Auto-cancel'd aerials? plz elab.

Whenever I face Olimars I just go Olimar, tends to work for me since they can't seem to control or understand which is theirs. I seem to how ever :p

But for shiek I was just wondering how much the chain keeps Olimar gimpd, not from dangle in off the ledge but ledge hogging with it, since you can just hold the edge and then they can't UP+B. I'm still learning Shiek and haven't faced an Olimar in a while so I'd like to find out.
 

BRoomer
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Yeah pivot grab, pikmin throw, **** aerials like fair, dair, uair will beat so much of sheiks stuff as far as priority. So if you use those defensively it can get hard for sheik to approach.
 

Tristan_win

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Olimar is a match up that I do not know how to play against... For the first half of year the short hop into nair approach worked great but now I'm fighting olimars whom know how to pivot grab which if they have room to ***** that.

Needles do work but aren't that effective, although doing a full hop into needle storm I can see having it's uses but I've yet to test it.

Chain is sadly very useless as for some reason it doesn't stop olimar grab and worst yet blue pikman can grab sheik out of her chain camp. It should also be know that because of his down B it's also possible for Olimar to make the chain harder to use if he's falling upon you.

Olimar also has this wicked low % combo starting from the dthrow into fair... which if you don't act properly can lead to a usmash or even another grab. It's a very harsh frame trap for at least me.

Ftilt into usmash is fairly hard to do as well since you don't get the chance to land the ftilt often.

Being defensive may work but Olimar can pump out the spam a lot faster then sheiks so I think maybe a ice climber like appouch is needed as such I currently see the match up is as roughly as hard as ice climbers
 

Zankoku

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Olimar matchup is a nightmare.

Even if Olimar doesn't camp, complete hell for Sheik if he's actually, you know, playing like he should.
 

Dabuz

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oooohhh...this matchup is just a really ridiculous matchup for sheik once oli knows what he is doing(even though very few olis will have any experience)

folr the most part idk much about this matchup, ive only fought 2 or 3 competent sheiks, one recently,

for the most part you cannot camp oli, period, you just can't, don't try you won't win so you will have to play aggressive at point blank range,

your main advantage in this matchup is your ability to beat us a point blank with your high priority attacks, my advice for doing that is your needles,

they are vital in this matchup to create openings because we either have to somehow avoid/block needles gives you an opening to approach or take the hit giving you an opening anyway, using that opening you will need to somehow get next to us, either by dashing, shorthop, w/e,

at that range your gonna want to grab/ftilt at low percents and try to chain us off stage and predict how we will get on as to counter us and keep us off, at high percents from there your best option is a mix of jabs, grabs, and dsmashes(and only dsmash) with the same goal in mind, jabbing should only be used for when we are close to edge because no matter how we di we will be in a bad spot,

your best options for edge guarding are aerial needles or nairing us below stage then grabbing edge, we can't super armor 3+ needles and if you nair while falling then nair while jumping super armor gives you time to get on edge and edge hog us or we get hit and lose the stock

now, if you approach without needles i can only wish you luck that the oli has no experience, you want to pay a full mixup game and lure out our attacks so you can take advantage of our minimal lag time with your speed,

at close range our tilts are fast so if you don't attack fast enough a smart oli with tilt you and push you back putting you in position you were in before, so don't use attacks with startup lag if possible


now, what experienced olis will do: pivot grab and camp at mid range, use tilts/jab at point blank, use upsmash/up-b/ pivot to counter air approaches, out space you with a wall of fsmashes, di out of ftilt lock(don't try to chain to upsmash as its to easy for oli to avoid) not sheild grab or spotdodge, super armor when aerials, edge hog you

what un experieneced olis will do: shield grab , use smashes always and never tilts, shorthop nair your air approaches(your nair/fair/bair will trade hits with our nair but give more vertical knockback) spotdoge, roll a lot, pivot grab only ground approaches, use dsmash/ upsmash alot, try to nair->ground canceled smash you, fight you in the air, throw multiple pikmin when short hopping


notes: oli can grab combo your for an easy 60% if played right at low %s, you can and can't beat our fsmash at certain times depending on pikmin, you upsmash+dsmash can get rid of all pikmin, you have to play offensive offstage, ftilt->upsmash rarely if ever works


synopsis: oli can camp sheik with our grabs, pikmin, and fsmashes but sheik's needles will be key factor in giving her openings, she will have to play point blank pressure and most times chase oli in the air where she beats him, olimar has enough lag for sheik to come in and attack if oli screws up almost any attack, dash attack will be a great hit and run move for sheik,

ill say either 60-4- or 65-35 olimars advantage, depending on matchup experience
 

BRoomer
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Just cuz I see you taking things out of context. I didn't imply that Florida is bad, but calling them superior to two other great regions is pretty arrogant.
Obviously we both know the thread isn't for our back and forth. So I'll keep it short.
I didn't say anything about Texas or Jersey. I said "Above the curve" which means above average. I'm sure that both of use can agree to. If things I mentioned, poor spacing, lack of sheild, etc. are things Texans do than I couldn't have been talking about you or your region.
You are right you didn't imply Florida is bad, but you did imply comparing FL to TX is a joke, espeacially with that last post, but I never implied FL was the strongest region.


Don't get me wrong, I am indeed an arrogant little jerk. But I don't like people putting words in my mouth.
 

Jim Morrison

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I'm just letting you know, in the Sonic boards we're discussing Sheik in our 'Sonic is better than...'-thread. Sort of matchup thread, but looking at which character Sonic is better than, looking at how they compare in the entire cast. Please take a look, you'll find it on the front page of Sonic boards.
 

stealth3654

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I'm not very experienced in this match-up, so does anybody know what stages to CP/ban against Oli?
 

FrozenFire13

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Port Aero Town is the only one I can think of at the moment. Anything without ledges obviously. Maybe Rainbow Cruise?

On any other stage, just Fair **** him off the side. Oli off stage = auto gimp.
 

psike

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I honestly find this to be Sheik's hardest matchup, but it may just be because im inexperienced against oli. If he camps with thrown Pikmin, spinning the chain prevents the Pikmin from hitting you - if he starts getting close don't let him grab with a blue one though. The only other time you will want to use the chain is to ledgeguard, which you will HAVE to do in order to win this match.

If he gets you in the air, you are going to have problems because Oli can juggle well. If he is juggling you well, it isn't a bad idea to use a dair to throw off his timing, but make sure that you will either connect with it, or that you will be far enough away not to be grabbed when he approaches.

Most Olis also depend on tech chasing, and when you have the advantage, sheild camping. Do your best to disrupt his flow with needles. Another good way to throw him off when you know he will approach is to use vanish offensively, but do so away from him. Don't do this too much or he will learn to punish with a grab after.

When on the ground in close proximity, Jab and try to get as much % as you can, but if you start to lose him make sure you get out before you get punished with a side smash. I find that ftilt is hard to land if the other Oli jabs or grabs frequently (which most do). If you do manage to land it, keep it going as long as you can and end it with a dsmash, it usually connects and will get him off of you for some possible needle damage or edge guarding.

If the Oli is in the air, use your speed to control the stage and keep him there the best you can.

Honestly, I don't have much else to say, other than I hate this one and would love some tips myself. I think Oli beats Sheik on the ground, and on neutral stages it's really tough to get him off of it. Approaching at an angle with bairs and weak nairs->grabs is probably your best bet when you aren't fending him off with needles.

Anyone else have any ideas on this one? I would be much appreciated.
 

Lazee

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yes his pivot grab *****...i have videos being uploaded of me vs richbrown who is on socals pr as olimar look for them in the video thread if u want to see how i did,we basicly played for like 6 hours straight so i have really good olimar matchup experience now,his grab range is absurd and if he abuses whistle like rich does then getting kills is incredibly hard.ill post more later
 

stealth3654

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While Lazee is getting Olimar vids up, we will move on to the next person: Lucario!

Discuss!!!
 

saviorslegacy

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OMG I HATE LUCARIO!!!!!
*suicide* That is all I have to say.
Seriously... this is one tough match up.

The best way to understand this match up is to understand where Lucario beats Sheik.


Lucario's pros over Sheik:

He out range's you left and right. A good Lucario will space like a B*tch and get you with f-tilts, FSmash, u-tilts and Aura Sphere.
He is hard to approach.
He CANNOT be f-tilt locked very far. I suggest the Swan Combo as a replacer.
He is floaty and thus hard to combo altogether.
He has that f*cking CG (becaue Sheik has a high falling speed she can be CG'd yo high percents.)
He has a very good roll dodge. Keep that in mind.
Because Sheik usally kills at high percents and that Lucario gets more powerful at high percents makes this match VERY tough for the Sheik.


Sheik's pros over Lucario:

NEEDLES! Again this is very important. The reason being is that it stops him from charging Aura Sphere. The only time he should be able to charge it is when you just died or when you are recovering.
Ledge Hogging is also important, Since Lucario does NOT have a hit box when he use's Up B that means that you are 100% safe on the ledge as long as he can't get you with Fair or something. Take advantage of this weakness and make him over shoot and punish him.
If he is follish enough to use DT then punish him.
You out speed him.
Luckily FU (f-tilt decay> USmash) works on him (as everyone else). Just try and get in that decay.
Punish any attempts to grab and try not to let him get a jab on you.
Sheik can recover from below which does not allow Lucario to do that little Fai> Fair> Fair thing.


Just remeber that he out ranges you and kill him a low percents if you can.
 

Crossjeremiah

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lol your really tryinig to trademark that swan combo. its just a decayed ftilt to fair. and armada did it before you why you stealing his combo. im calling it the armada combo. .. lol


i like to approach lucario with needles then run in with a ftilt or AAA combo when he is stunned. never tried to get uair unless at a angle. nevel directly below him he will dair spam the hell out of ya. dont stale your attacks. i can't stree this enough. dont decay your smashes. i would suggest AAA combo and needles to get them high up there. they are easy to gimp to. just ftilt to fairs and AAA combo to reset decay then fair him off the stage. then gimp with needles or bair... which one you think would better work in the situation. when your off the stage and hes on the stage. he will go for a dair regardless. so try to tether as soon as possible . or vanish and try not to get punished.i would recover low on the stage. because if you time the vanish just right . you can punish he dair. but its veryyyy risky. and ftilt to usmash. but don't focus the whole match on ftilt to usmash. when you know you can get that ftilt to usmash just casually. do it if you look obvious your going to get outplayed and outspaced
 

BRoomer
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/rollseyes
Sheik drama!

Lucario is cool, but again needles **** this match up.

lucario is slower than sheik in the air so if you play it right he should be guessing when he needs to throw out attacks. Bair has the range and speed to get at him when he is in the air.

Lucario has huge range and lower cool down times on the ground, but you can get him OOS purty easy with dash attack and if you are close enough tilts. You can sheild on reaction to most of his moves. watch out for his jab stuff and his grabs.

Over all be patient and keep presure while staying safe. you can out camp lucario easy.
 

East

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Needles can't be stressed enough here. That and really good spacing. This is definitely a match where you want to save your kill moves. Because if you decay them and Lucario takes on enough damage, he's going to really hurt you.
 

stealth3654

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Lucario has a blind spot in the air. It is 45 degrees downward on both sides of him. If you can get in that position, a bair is the perfect tool to use. Its hit box is angled slightly upward and has a lot of range, and Lucario won't be able to punish it.

You are just going to have to play this match-up smart and safe.
 

saviorslegacy

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lol your really tryinig to trademark that swan combo. its just a decayed ftilt to fair. and armada did it before you why you stealing his combo. im calling it the armada combo. .. lol


i like to approach lucario with needles then run in with a ftilt or AAA combo when he is stunned. never tried to get uair unless at a angle. nevel directly below him he will dair spam the hell out of ya. dont stale your attacks. i can't stree this enough. dont decay your smashes. i would suggest AAA combo and needles to get them high up there. they are easy to gimp to. just ftilt to fairs and AAA combo to reset decay then fair him off the stage. then gimp with needles or bair... which one you think would better work in the situation. when your off the stage and hes on the stage. he will go for a dair regardless. so try to tether as soon as possible . or vanish and try not to get punished.i would recover low on the stage. because if you time the vanish just right . you can punish he dair. but its veryyyy risky. and ftilt to usmash. but don't focus the whole match on ftilt to usmash. when you know you can get that ftilt to usmash just casually. do it if you look obvious your going to get outplayed and outspaced

He never posted about it, taught about it or is going to write a guide on it! IT'S MINE! If you say it's his then I stole his unwatched combo. <,<
 

Zankoku

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What a show of ego, all to give a name to a really standard, almost BnB Sheik combo. Whatever.
 
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