Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Yuna]

No, and people should know my reasoning on this already.


Why should we be selectively banning techniques to modify match-ups? Tactics should only be banned if they massively over-centralize the game, just like characters.

What does DDD's "infinite" do? It gives him a few **** match-ups against a very select cast, that is not anywhere near enough over-centralization to justify the purposed solution.

Unlike the exclusion rule, banning should be a last resort, not our first instinct.

DDD's infinite simply doesn't effect enough characters to be anything other then give him **** match-ups, if you're fighting DDD, don't get grabbed. If you can't *shrugs*, that's why it's a bad match-up.

In case BentoBox still doesn't get what I'm saying, I suggest he reads this one post which says what I've been saying in a more concise matter.

 

[Vyse]

Keep Dedede's chasing infinites

Ban Dedede's Standing Grab Infinite.
To me it comes under the stalling clause. Really.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It should be banned mario, luigi, samus, dk and bowser already take a lot of time and effort to use competitively and i think this severely limits those character's potential.

 

[Ulevo]

The infinite should not be allowed. There isn't any real reason to debate this.

- It stalls matches.
- It takes complete control away from the opposing player.
- It is extremely low risk, extremely high reward
- Unlike Ice Climbers, King Dedede has no requirements to achieve the infinite
- It takes a single grab per stock to win, with the best grab range in the game (excluding tethers)
- It distorts match ups

There really isn't any competitive benefit for keeping it. At all. Removing it would increase the likely hood of use for five other characters, and it wouldn't make King Dedede any less of a beast then he already is. Many tournaments I attend are removing it, or already have.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Keep Dedede's chasing infinites

Ban Dedede's Standing Grab Infinite.
To me it comes under the stalling clause. Really.

Good point, kinda. I'm pretty sure it's not stalling if one player is damaging the other, but that is something that can be discussed.

 

[cutter]

After all, 4 of the Big 6 Suck can be running chaingrabbed.

Sorry Yuna but that just made me LOL so hard

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Also this game is supposed to be fun. Being grabbed by Dedede for a couple minutes isnt very fun. Stalling wasnt fun but it could be considered an effective way to win. Like MK hits the opponent once and then runs away for the whole match.

 

[BentoBox]

In case BentoBox still doesn't get what I'm saying, I suggest he reads this one post which says what I've been saying in a more concise matter.

And I still disagree.

@Yuna: You talk about me setting arbitrary thresholds when you're doing just about the same thing with the whole "4 characters =/= the whole cast, so its ok". You've failed to answer my question. Where does the problem with D3 being #1 lie? Why is it that my "13 characters = enough" is in no way comparable to your "4 unviable characters = ok!". What is YOUR threshold concerning the number of characters needed to make this game worth playing?

And now I'm being a <insert word here>? Ironic, coming from you. That sure means a lot ;].

 

[Punishment Divine]

The infinite should not be allowed. There isn't any real reason to debate this.

- It stalls matches.
- It takes complete control away from the opposing player.
- It is extremely low risk, extremely high reward
- Unlike Ice Climbers, King Dedede has no requirements to achieve the infinite
- It takes a single grab per stock to win, with the best grab range in the game (excluding tethers)
- It distorts match ups

There really isn't any competitive benefit for keeping it. At all. Removing it would increase the likely hood of use for five other characters, and it wouldn't make King Dedede any less of a beast then he already is. Many tournaments I attend are already removing it, or already have.

Pretty much this.

Why the **** are people still using "Don't get grabbed" as an excuse to not ban this? Hadn't we deduced months ago that no one is capable of not getting grabbed without planking or something, especially against D3?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Also this game is supposed to be fun. Being grabbed by Dedede for a couple minutes isnt very fun. Stalling wasnt fun but it could be considered an effective way to win. Like MK hits the opponent once and then runs away for the whole match.

"Fun" is a moot point, and doesn't belong in a debate for banning something. "Fun" is subjective, and has no real value as a point.

 

[bobson]

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to turn out like the Metaknight poll where the SBR teases us with acknowledgement for a month or two and then says "LOL NO, WERE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT THAT?"

 

[Punishment Divine]

"Fun" is a moot point, and doesn't belong in a debate for banning something. "Fun" is subjective, and has no real value as a point.

I agree with this. Fun has no place in competitive play, unfortunately

 

[Sesshomuronay]

If you say "Dont get grabbed!" for an argument then I guess you also think that people should be allowed to hit you once and then stall the whole match.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Punishment Divine-Agreed even with good spacing u will get grabbed someday. So i really dont understand the point of that argument. Unless theyre trying to sound more pro than everybody else.

 

[CO18]

The infinite should not be allowed. There isn't any real reason to debate this.

- It stalls matches.
- It takes complete control away from the opposing player.
- It is extremely low risk, extremely high reward
- Unlike Ice Climbers, King Dedede has no requirements to achieve the infinite
- It takes a single grab per stock to win, with the best grab range in the game (excluding tethers)
- It distorts match ups

There really isn't any competitive benefit for keeping it. At all. Removing it would increase the likely hood of use for five other characters, and it wouldn't make King Dedede any less of a beast then he already is. Many tournaments I attend are removing it, or already have.

I agree.

Seriously though What REAL Reasons do you have for WANTING his standing infinite to be in the game for all you Anti-Banners. It Simply doesn't make sense. Your only answer is that you can counterpick. Yes we all know you CAN counterpick but regardless it makes 6 matchups IMPOSSIBLE and forces players to use a different character even if they may not want to and most of the time they resort to Metaknight. It takes the FUN out of the game and Im pretty sure that Is the reason we are all playing this game.

His Infinite adds nothing to the game and does not help in any form and only hurts the metagame and turns off potential players because in many situations theyre not allowed to use their favorite character because Dedede is a popular character.

It adds nothing to the game and taking it away will only help the game and make it more enjoyable and will get rid of 5 impossible matchups. Atlantic North is always ahead of the game and bans these stupid tactics such as them banning this infinite and excessive ledgecamping.

Theres no reason for it, that and the above ^ points mentioned by Ulevo.

This coming from a D3 main.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Punishment Divine-Agreed even with good spacing u will get grabbed someday. So i really dont understand the point of that argument. Unless theyre trying to sound more pro than everybody else.

They are. They are assuming absolute perfect play, which is impossible to achieve. The most we can assume is top level play, in which people DO get grabbed.

 

[BentoBox]

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to turn out like the Metaknight poll where the SBR teases us with acknowledgement for a month or two and then says "LOL NO, WERE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT THAT?"

LOL, so true xD!

 

[Lord Viper]

Ban it so we can play on Shadow Mose Island. I love that stage and because of King Dedede, we can't play on that stage. T_T

I didn't vote yet because I'm still thinking of a good reason to ban or not to banned.

 

[Hylian]

DDD's infinite should not be banned.


I am not going to argue my case so I instant win.

Bye guys .

 

[adumbrodeus]

Keep Dedede's chasing infinites

Ban Dedede's Standing Grab Infinite.
To me it comes under the stalling clause. Really.

It has the POTENTIAL for stalling, but employ a ceiling and that's gone.

It should be banned mario, luigi, samus, dk and bowser already take a lot of time and effort to use competitively and i think this severely limits those character's potential.

So... we should just randomly ban things to edit match-ups. OK, lets ban Falco's SHL and SHDL so we can make his **** match-ups reasonable....

The infinite should not be allowed. There isn't any real reason to debate this.

- It stalls matches.

Only if you don't employ a reasonable ceiling.

- It takes complete control away from the opposing player.

So? It's the same with all 0-death combos, that's the definition of combo.

- It is extremely low risk, extremely high reward

So?

The competitive mindset is to achieve the best result for the least possible effort.

Just because it's low risk high reward doesn't make it warrant a ban.

- Unlike Ice Climbers, King Dedede has no requirements to achieve the infinite

That's not a ban criteria.

- It takes a single grab per stock to win, with the best grab range in the game (excluding tethers)

Again, so?

- It distorts match ups

A legal technique doesn't "distort match-ups, it defines them.

You could say that Ganondorf's tipman distorts his match-ups just as easily because it has the same net effect, a better match-up then would be possible without it.

There really isn't any competitive benefit for keeping it. At all. Removing it would increase the likely hood of use for six other characters, and it wouldn't make King Dedede any less of a beast then he already is. Many tournaments I attend are already removing it, or already have.

But is 6 characters enough to warrant a ban? Especially when most are rarely played.

The central ban criteria is:

1. Enforceable
2. Discrete
3. Warranted

Generally "warranted" comes down to over-centralization, and as of right now, I don't see any evidence that the DDD chaingrab overcentralizes the metagame enough to be warranted.

Also this game is supposed to be fun. Being grabbed by Dedede for a couple minutes isnt very fun. Stalling wasnt fun but it could be considered an effective way to win. Like MK hits the opponent once and then runs away for the whole match.

"Fun" is not a ban criteria.

 

[CO18]

It has the POTENTIAL for stalling, but employ a ceiling and that's gone.



So... we should just randomly ban things to edit match-ups. OK, lets ban Falco's SHL and SHDL so we can make his **** match-ups reasonable....



Only if you don't employ a reasonable ceiling.



So? It's the same with all 0-death combos, that's the definition of combo.



So?

The competitive mindset is to achieve the best result for the least possible effort.

Just because it's low risk high reward doesn't make it warrant a ban.



That's not a ban criteria.



Again, so?



A legal technique doesn't "distort match-ups, it defines them.

You could say that Ganondorf's tipman distorts his match-ups just as easily because it has the same net effect, a better match-up then would be possible without it.



But is 6 characters enough to warrant a ban? Especially when most are rarely played.

The central ban criteria is:

1. Enforceable
2. Discrete
3. Warranted

Generally "warranted" comes down to over-centralization, and as of right now, I don't see any evidence that the DDD chaingrab overcentralizes the metagame enough to be warranted.



"Fun" is not a ban criteria.

Why do YOU want to keep the infinite?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Ban it so we can play on Shadow Mose Island. I love that stage and because of King Dedede, we can't play on that stage. T_T

I didn't vote yet because I'm still thinking of a good reason to ban or not to banned.

Well, we're talking about the standing infinite. The one that you don't need a wall for.
And I'm pretty sure there are many other reasons for banning wall levels.

 

[Anther]

Someone brought up Fox vs Sheik ftilt lock. That's highly avoidable for fox, especially if you SDI the first hit. Fox vs Pikachu, as fox if you're above a certain percent he can't even perform it, and Pika's grab range makes it way relatively possible to avoid. It is simply not possible to avoid DDD's grab >_>.

Anyways, I'm mad there are people posting and voting and don't know what the hell they're even arguing. I'm sure it's clear by now that it's DDD's STANDING IN ONE SPOT NOT AGAINST A WALL INFINITE REGRAB. It's ****ed up, he has the best grab range in the game, it's more lopsided than ANY of metaknights matchups will EVER be, so anyone that's for banning a character that's not even broken, but not this thing is stupid.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why do YOU want to keep the infinite?

Same reason I want to keep MK in the metagame.

I don't think the ban is warranted.

 

[Ulevo]

Only if you don't employ a reasonable ceiling.

Oh? And exactly how do you go about doing that?

The whole point of the infinite being used is to perform a one hit kill once the percentage is high enough. So it is reasonable to assume that using the infinite past that percentage line is in fact stalling. But how do you know what that percentage line is? Do you go by a specific percentage for each stage, since certain stages are larger? Do you go by character, since certain characters are harder to kill then others? Does this take DI into consideration? Or do we just automatically assume a percentage that no character under any circumstances should be able to live once thrown?

If the latter be the case, then you come back to me with that specific ceiling. Because I'm willing to bet that it will be a rather high number. The higher the percent ceiling is, the closer it is to stalling. The fact is you can't define a ceiling appropriately without calling it stalling.

Fact is, it is stalling.

 

[Lord Viper]

Well, we're talking about the standing infinite. The one that you don't need a wall for.

Oh, that infnite grab. He can't do that to all the characters, so I'm on the anti ban side right now, but I'm still not going to vote until I face some more King Dedede mains that masters that grab tech.

 

[Anther]

Same reason I want to keep MK in the metagame.

I don't think the ban is warranted.

wtf, overcentralized?
Those characters lose complete playability from the matchup, and ultimately lose the characters as viable characters due to a dumb technicality. Warranted because of what I just said.
He can still CG them the normal accepted way.

It's not stalling Ulevo. x_X. Taking an extra 20-30 seconds to make sure the throw to kill isn't a stall. ... Though that's not what you're implying at all.. I'm wrong. ^^

 

[Ussi]

Well, we're talking about the standing infinite. The one that you don't need a wall for.
And I'm pretty sure there are many other reasons for banning wall levels.

Almost every character has a wall infinite, that is why. Even Ike has one...

 

[BentoBox]

There is no mastering involved.

 

[brinboy789]

Almost every character has a wall infinite, that is why. Even Ike has one...

no...only a few select chars have wall infinites. AAA jab combos arent infinites XP

D3
diddy

who else? and lol, whats ikes wall infinite?

 

[Jenkins]

he should only be able to do 4 standing grabs in a row one time every stock at 0%, and then again after every 100% the opponent takes, since he can mostly do 4 in a row on the stage anyways.

it is an extremely touchy issue though..

 

[Fletch]

As I was sayig before you killed the last one. (are you able to delete it anyway?)

the main reason it isn't ban worthy is because it is restricted to those 6 characters. it isn't universal. if it were universal it would need to be proven that DDD cuold win with only the grab.

It doesn't break the game in short.

I was first ot vote and first to post ^_^

I feel exactly the same way. Too bad you beat me to the first reply. Anyways, looks like the general SWF community is pro-ban as usual, why try to beat something when you can just ban it?

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike has several wall infinites.

Pokemon Stadium, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and I think even on Delfino Plaza.

 

[brinboy789]

Ike has several wall infinites.

Pokemon Stadium, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and I think even on Delfino Plaza.

he does? o.o what move? i dont use ike so i wouldnt know XP

 

[Ulevo]

wtf, overcentralized?
Those characters lose complete playability from the matchup, and ultimately lose the characters as viable characters due to a dumb technicality. Warranted because of what I just said.
He can still CG them the normal accepted way.

It's not stalling Ulevo. x_X. Taking an extra 20-30 seconds to make sure the throw to kill isn't a stall. ... Though that's not what you're implying at all.. I'm wrong. ^^

Well, how long does it take? Can you define that for me?

The fact is that those extra 20-30 seconds (which is arbitrary, but in a reasonable mind set) are a circumstance in which the other player can't even control their own character, do damage to their opponent, anything. It isn't any different than stalling under a stage. The only difference between the two is that one requires a grab, and one can't kill the opposing player.

Hell, at higher percentages, if the King Dedede main wanted to be an ***, he could slow down how fast he throws you, since you can't break free immediately once your percentage is too high.

 

[JuanTendo]

............

As I was sayig before you killed the last one. (are you able to delete it anyway?)

the main reason it isn't ban worthy is because it is restricted to those 6 characters. it isn't universal. if it were universal it would need to be proven that DDD cuold win with only the grab.

It doesn't break the game in short.

I was first ot vote and first to post ^_^

exactly...he will only be able to do it with does 6... but have you think that there is actually people that main does 6 characters?

so if i main DK i just can't play against DDD cause you pussys just can't take away something from the game that ****s everything up... its not something that DDD really needs to win. you only do it if you are NOOOOB, and SCARE.

where is this going to end?... the day where only 5 characters will be good to take to tournaments? WHY ?...BECAUSE all the others can be CG till dead by some other character.

jesus... learn to play and forget infinites that take all the FUN away from the game

stfu and try to put our self in the place of a DK main before saying stupid crap.

 

[Yuna]

What adumbrodeus just said.

And, still, what defines "unwinnable"? What makes a matchup "too unwinnable" and thus bannable? Apparently, Sheik's F-tilt lock is not "unwinnable" enough to be banned. So let's define "unwinnable".

 

[BentoBox]

I feel exactly the same way. Too bad you beat me to the first reply. Anyways, looks like the general SWF community is pro-ban as usual, why try to beat something when you can just ban it?

? No amount of skill will help you in a DK vs D3 matchup. This really isn't the same thing.

Yuna, you have yet to reply to my post. And Anther already discussed the fox vs pikachu/sheik matchups.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I say this deserves a ban.

And also people need to do their homework on it, before posting out of their ***. Like Anther just stated.

My opinion on it should be the obvious. Ban it, or restrict it. D3 can grab so easily during a match. 70% of his game is grabs & Dthrow CG's anyway, which are tolerable to an extent. D3 is an amazingly competitive opponet without grabs. But the standing infinite combined with the DThrow is just outright ridiculous. Them 6 characters arent even competitively viable whatsoever with both of them things combined. One grab ='s so much % on you. It's ridiculously hard to catch up. Then D3's sheer size makes his grab range spectacular.

After watching Polmex' match against D3. I'm all for that. Least MK is an enjoyably, yet difficult battle. D3 just grabs, boom 40 something %. Then another stand CG later on at higher %s.
(I dont remeber the youtube video) But after viewing it. MK is nowhere near as broken as D3's CG.

Last and most importantly. This alone is the main reason them 6 characters rarely get played. It outright demolishes them with no effort.

 

[Punishment Divine]

What adumbrodeus just said.

And, still, what defines "unwinnable"? What makes a matchup "too unwinnable" and thus bannable? Apparently, Sheik's F-tilt lock is not "unwinnable" enough to be banned. So let's define "unwinnable".

Why define "unwinnnable"? Does it have to make the matchup absolutely 100% guaranteed that DDD will win for you to consider banning it?