Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[LinkStrifeLeonhart]

Anyways, looks like the general SWF community is pro-ban as usual, why try to beat something when you can just ban it?

lolwhut

"Try and beat a standing infinite from a character with a stupidly large grab range" ...?

Hell, as I understand it, you don't need to main or second Dedede. You just need knowledge of how the infinite works and you've won that match. Feel free to correct me on that, though.

 

[HeroMystic]

he does? o.o what move? i dont use ike so i wouldnt know XP

Corneria: F-throw.
PS: B-throw on the Rock Stage.
Rainbow Cruise: F-throw -> Jab -> F-throw on the ship.
Delfino Plaza: F-throw at the Shine Sprite tower stage.

 

[Anther]

lol, **** DK and Luigi mains. Play to win. -.-... I hate you people.

 

[Ussi]

no...only a few select chars have wall infinites. AAA jab combos arent infinites XP

D3
diddy

who else? and lol, whats ikes wall infinite?

Ike - fthrow, bthrow can also be used to start it. (Hero mystic covered it in better detail)
Fox - shine
Rob - Dtilt
Marth - Dtilt
DK - Dtilt

the list goes on....

 

[ColinJF]

Ulevo's stalling argument would be interesting if it weren't for the fact that stalling is already loosely defined. Under what conditions can you fly under the stage as Meta Knight? If you are really playing to win, you'll fly under the stage as often as possible under the rules--which don't actually specifically define them. The SBR rules say that Meta Knight's infinite cape stall is banned. But what if you just do it for 1/3 longer than the normal cape duration? This helps you run down the clock, but it's such a small difference your opponent would be unlikely to notice, aside from controller noise, and they might dismiss even that since they didn't notice the 1/3 longer cape.

The point is, stalling rules are necessarily loose and adding an arbitrary threshold beyond which you cannot continue an infinite chaingrab is not any more wild than the existing stalling rules. If you want to reform stalling rules, you are free to do so, but it necessarily extends far beyond the domain of infinite chaingrabs.

I also notice a lot of people making a fuss over what this chaingrab "adds to the game" or asking for reasons to keep it. The default stance with any feature of the game is that it is not banned. We don't need a reason not to ban something; it's the default stance. The game is perfectly playable with Dedede's infinite chaingrabs, so they should not be banned, however much better the game would be without them.

 

[Anther]

lolwhut

"Try and beat a standing infinite from a character with a stupidly large grab range" ...?

Hell, as I understand it, you don't need to main or second Dedede. You just need knowledge of how the infinite works and you've won that match. Feel free to correct me on that, though.

It's true, I've seen it happen. It's really absurd.

 

[Ulevo]

? No amount of skill will help you in a DK vs D3 matchup. This really isn't the same thing.

I'll give an example of this, if I may. A friend of mine came to a tournament with me in the summer. He at the time had zero tournament experience whatsoever. During a match, he beat JL, who is second/third on the GTA Pro Rankings, by choosing King Dedede when JL went with Donkey Kong. I believe he three stocked him too.

Circumstances like this simply shouldn't happen.

 

[Radiation]

I don't get why this is even a poll, the topic name should be the same minus the question mark. It's a stupid oversight that causes 6 characters to be COMPLETELY unplayable in the matchup provided your opponent knows how to do it. Unless you're really, really skilled then it's an auto-win for any DDD that has the timing down, PERIOD. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILL. It's just a pointless unfair advantage on a select few characters! If it affected almost the entire cast equally then hey, we might have an issue here. But right now it's just unfair; Dedede has a great spotdodge and RIDICULOUS grab range, he's no Ice Climber.

I didn't read the entire topic, but the post in the beginning going "well we can't chaingrab luigi anymore, he might have the advantage!" Yeah? Well if you're actually a skilled player, then the fact that Luigi has the advantage shouldn't be that big of an issue anyway. DDD has plenty of bad matchups anyway (and enough really good matchups as it is)

It's like... pretend that there's an arbitrary rule at your chess club that if you wear a red shirt, you can attempt to kick anyone that wears glasses in the crotch. Out of the thirty-six members of your chess club, only six of them wear glasses. You always wear a red shirt. Some of these glasses players are naturally better against you, and others are not. There are two results to this overall:

1. Everytime you play against a person wearing glasses, you kick them in the crotch until they forfeit, unless they are amazingly good and manage to beat you within a few turns before they collapse on the ground, crying.
2. You actually play against these people and gain matchup experience against them, helping you to understand how to deal with their strategies, their quirks, etc. so that if the crotch-kicking tactic is banned in the future, although some of them might have advantages vs. you you can still pull through if you're skilled and smart enough.

Dedede's infinite is number one. Number two is what will be forced if Dedede's infinite is banned.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you guys?

[edit: shiek's ftilt lock is escapable, and doesn't guarantee loss of stock vs. a competent player. dedede's infinite is NOT like a huge problem or anything, but it's just stupid and he doesn't need it, it seems like an unintentional crappy glitch in the game]

[edit2: how about for banning the infinite... you just can't do a standing regrab or anything that pertains to it? we don't need to get into stalling technicalities, those suck.]

 

[Luigi player]

Ban this skilless unfair tactic

I don't really feel like debating this anymore, I already did in the other "ban D3s infinite" thread.


Most of the poeple who say no are people who don't even play any of those characters (not even D3).

 

[brinboy789]

Ike - fthrow, bthrow can also be used to start it. (Hero mystic covered it in better detail)
Fox - shine
Rob - Dtilt
Marth - Dtilt
DK - Dtilt

the list goes on....

ooo...shine works, for rob and dk not sure, but marth and G&W dtilt isnt true infinite, they get knocked off at some damage

 

[Ulevo]

I wonder how many of these so called wall "infinites" actually work. Many of them I'm sure can be prevented/ended with SDI. Ike's FThrow can't, but ones such as Marth's DTilt seem questionable to me.

 

[JuanTendo]

when will all this ignorance end ?...

Just ban the **** thing... its ****ing up the game we all love

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.... i hate ignorant gamers.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's stupid to outright ban the infinite, but I support restrictions. The two local tourneys I attend restrict it to like 5 regrabs. That's about the same as a cg if I'm not mistaken.


So my vote goes to yes, but I really dont care because it's not like the people using those mains cant use a counterpick. Hell, they should have a counterpick even if it was completely banned because expecting to do well with just one main not named MK in Brawl is just plain stupid. (And even he does better with counter picks)

 

[Ussi]

ooo...shine works, for rob and dk not sure, but marth and G&W dtilt isnt true infinite, they get knocked off at some damage

meh, then almost all characters have very long "wall chain attacks" that do a lot of damage and bring you to killing percent unless the wall disappears in time. 100% is a lot...

I believe Fox's a true infinite though.

 

[BentoBox]

So my vote goes to yes, but I really dont care because it's not like the people using those mains cant use a counterpick. Hell, they should have a counterpick even if it was completely banned because expecting to do well with just one main not named MK in Brawl is just plain stupid. (And even he does better with counter picks)

How is maining said characters even an option when ANYONE can pick up D3 and unleash the gay? These characters are flat out unviable.

 

[ViceGrip]

I'm for the ban as well. get this broken crap out of here. Mk isn't broken-This technique is. I'm all for counterpicking but having a character w/ such an easy technique that ruins 6 other characters is disgusting. Who cares if supposedly 'not too many people' main them, that shouldn't be a factor. To allow this is just to continue to thin the roster down to people who only play d3 and the other high tiers.

 

[BrawlBro]

i say ban the standing infinite.

someone can be a awesome dk and i would have no fear playing them because i can counterpick d3. The infinite is not like the ic's at all because that cg is hard to pull off (well 'harder') and ic's have bad grab range. D3 has INCREDIBLE grab range and the infinite can be learned in like 5 min. If you ban the infinite d3 can still be a jerk and chaingrab across the entire stage so he still gets his "cheapness" its just that the infinite makes those 6 characters basically unplayable because its just too easy to pull off.

 

[Vyse]

Good point, kinda. I'm pretty sure it's not stalling if one player is damaging the other, but that is something that can be discussed.

When you think about it, it's the perfect way to stall.

You put you and your opponent in a position where you opponent can't do anything to you, without a definite end. Unlike other stalls however, with this stall you are constantly doing damage to the opponent and can end it with a sure-fire KO, AND it's easy enough to do.

When you think about it in terms of a stall, it's probably the most broken way of stalling in the game. Initiating it would be the hardest part, and in Brawl, getting a grab isn't THAT hard due to limited approach options.

At least the chasing chain-grab has a definite end (I'm not going to get started on wall infinites).

Ban Standing Infinites
Keep Chasing Chain-Grabs.

It's pretty **** obvious when a player is doing a standing infinite. Like when it's pretty **** obvious when a player is doing IDC.

The rulesets I've always employed include the banning of Dedede's standing infinite, but allowing every other variation thereof.

It just seemed like the most logical thing to do.

 

[Anther]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cezdASH_pp4 5:30 in this vid I get infinited XD. No SDI saving grace there XD.

It's stupid to outright ban the infinite, but I support restrictions. The two local tourneys I attend restrict it to like 5 regrabs. That's about the same as a cg if I'm not mistaken.

So my vote goes to yes, but I really dont care because it's not like the people using those mains cant use a counterpick. Hell, they should have a counterpick even if it was completely banned because expecting to do well with just one main not named MK in Brawl is just plain stupid. (And even he does better with counter picks)

I kinda like the 5 regrab as an alternative, but yeah. And there are plenty of none MK mains that play one char and do well, that's not even in the same realm of real arguments =p

 

[chic]

yes yes yes! OH GOD YES!!!!!!!

 

[rehab]

Many people can and are arguing my opinion better than I can so I'll just hope it gets banned because it's both one of the most ******** things in this game and restrictable.

 

[Anther]

What the hell's all this limited approach options in brawl thing that keeps popping up x_X. I didn't think they took a button away that was in melee that gave us more approaches. I remember there being Shines as a really sweet move and that's it. If you wanna keep attributing limited approaches then fine. Just because you're not constantly dash dancing and waiting for your opponent to whiff an attack and you retaliate by turning around and grabbing them isn't exactly an approach being removed from the game x_X, just an easy defensive option that def made the game look a lot faster though =p. It's still spacing aerials and grabbing to punish... Smashbros...

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I voted yes, I mean D3 still has advantages in those matchups anyways so banning the infinite wouldnt destroy his matchups, just not make it impossible to do. And none of those characters get very much play, except for maybe DK, so we'd maybe actually se a Luigi get to finals because he wasnt D3 counter picked and lost.
(and maybe the fact i main DK had something to do with it(even though the infinite has only legitimitely lost me 1 round))

 

[bobson]

The rulesets I've always employed include the banning of Dedede's standing infinite, but allowing every other variation thereof.

It just seemed like the most logical thing to do.

Just curious; where do your rulesets stand on effectively 0-death smallstep chaingrabs like the one on Bowser?

 

[Mortimer]

When you think about it, it's the perfect way to stall.

You put you and your opponent in a position where you opponent can't do anything to you, without a definite end. Unlike other stalls however, with this stall you are constantly doing damage to the opponent and can end it with a sure-fire KO, AND it's easy enough to do.

When you think about it in terms of a stall, it's probably the most broken way of stalling in the game. Initiating it would be the hardest part, and in Brawl, getting a grab isn't THAT hard due to limited approach options.

Define stalling. Is it delaying for the sole purpose of running the timer down? Obviously the infinite can easily result in a kill, so it's not just delaying unless you never kill.

From the SBR ruleset: "Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs most end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

So long as the infinite is used to kill rather than stall it's not stalling. That should be pretty obvious. You can call it underhanded, cheap, and say it should be banned, but it's not stalling.

 

[BentoBox]

What the hell's all this limited approach options in brawl thing that keeps popping up x_X. I didn't think they took a button away that was in melee that gave us more approaches. I remember there being Shines as a really sweet move and that's it. If you wanna keep attributing limited approaches then fine. Just because you're not constantly dash dancing and waiting for your opponent to whiff an attack and you retaliate by turning around and grabbing them isn't exactly an approach being removed from the game x_X, just an easy defensive option that def made the game look a lot faster though =p. It's still spacing aerials and grabbing to punish... Smashbros...

Because of the overhauled defensive mechanisms in Brawl, you cannot be nearly as reckless in Brawl as you can be in Melee, hence the limited approaches in comparison.

 

[TheMann]

Isn't it obvious... BAN IT!!

When a 2 year old toddler can beat me with my main just because he knows how to down throw over and over again something is wrong lol. Isn't D3 good enough as it is without the infinite anyway?

 

[Ulevo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cezdASH_pp4

Anther, did you attempt to SDI upwards at all? It looks like you just went side to side... I am almost positive you could have SDI'd upwards and out of that.

 

[Panix]

I support this bann because of this simple situation I had at my house not to long ago.

me and my friends were avid players of smash, we played all the time and anytime we could. I always was one step ahead of him, always having 2-3 stock on him using tech's and skill, spacing with the right atk's at the right moment, which was only a game in the head. He was a lucario main and I am a snake.

He would try to find a way to beat my snake, which he couldn't (the closest he got was lucario) until one day I showed him 3D's CG. He instantly choose him and started right away Grab+Run+Grab+run which really didn't take no skill at all. He now can get me to 1 stock or even beat me with this.

Idk, I call it broken, IDK but if one CG that requires (no) skill I think It should be banned.

 

[Vyse]

Just curious; where do your rulesets stand on effectively 0-death smallstep chaingrabs like the one on Bowser?

Define stalling. Is it delaying for the sole purpose of running the timer down? Obviously the infinite can easily result in a kill, so it's not just delaying unless you never kill.

From the SBR ruleset: "Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs most end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

So long as the infinite is used to kill rather than stall it's not stalling. That should be pretty obvious. You can call it underhanded, cheap, and say it should be banned, but it's not stalling.

Point taken.
I stand corrected.

Though, my opinion on how to handle it still stands and is probably most fair towards both sides of the arguement.

 

[Ussi]

I support this bann because of this simple situation I had at my house not to long ago.

me and my friends were avid players of smash, we played all the time and anytime we could. I always was one step ahead of him, always having 2-3 stock on him using tech's and skill, spacing with the right atk's at the right moment, which was only a game in the head. He was a lucario main and I am a snake.

He would try to find a way to beat my snake, which he couldn't (the closest he got was lucario) until one day I showed him 3D's CG. He instantly choose him and started right away Grab+Run+Grab+run which really didn't take no skill at all. He now can get me to 1 stock or even beat me with this.

Idk, I call it broken, IDK but if one CG that requires (no) skill I think It should be banned.

We're only talking about the standing chain grab. What you want is not happening...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Maybe D3's standing chaingrab should be banned because all the good players are arguing that it should be banned, and because it is technically a tactic that turns matchups into 100-0 D3's favor.

D3 is not Ice Climbers; D3 has far better and easier infinities than Nana and Popo, when he has them, and they break the matches that they are employed in. IC infinite breaks nothing (yet), it's a part of their game that you expect when facing them, not to mention their grabs can be avoided (relatively) easily compared to D3's. D3 sitting you to death with an awesome grab range simply breaks matchups, and in a sense, does break the game for the characters involved. Meta Knight is no where near as cheap as D3's standing infinite.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Lol anther that was funny. I lol'd. You should have tried SDI'ng upwards and upb or jumping out of it lol.

 

[Anther]

Anther, did you attempt to SDI upwards at all? It looks like you just went side to side... I am almost positive you could have SDI'd upwards and out of that.

I did, with both sticks, and then my hands got tired. I was pretty stuck. lol =]. I think the upward DI brought me back down way too quickly for it to even make a difference or had very little effect. It was weird to see something like that work. Though I was used to it being very effective with pika back in melee against certain characters >.>..

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I support this bann because of this simple situation I had at my house not to long ago.

me and my friends were avid players of smash, we played all the time and anytime we could. I always was one step ahead of him, always having 2-3 stock on him using tech's and skill, spacing with the right atk's at the right moment, which was only a game in the head. He was a lucario main and I am a snake.

He would try to find a way to beat my snake, which he couldn't (the closest he got was lucario) until one day I showed him 3D's CG. He instantly choose him and started right away Grab+Run+Grab+run which really didn't take no skill at all. He now can get me to 1 stock or even beat me with this.

Idk, I call it broken, IDK but if one CG that requires (no) skill I think It should be banned.

You know, you could just stand near the edge. He can only chaingrab you the length of the stage in front of him.

 

[Anther]

I support this bann because of this simple situation I had at my house not to long ago.

me and my friends were avid players of smash, we played all the time and anytime we could. I always was one step ahead of him, always having 2-3 stock on him using tech's and skill, spacing with the right atk's at the right moment, which was only a game in the head. He was a lucario main and I am a snake.

He would try to find a way to beat my snake, which he couldn't (the closest he got was lucario) until one day I showed him 3D's CG. He instantly choose him and started right away Grab+Run+Grab+run which really didn't take no skill at all. He now can get me to 1 stock or even beat me with this.

Idk, I call it broken, IDK but if one CG that requires (no) skill I think It should be banned.

I guess it's ok for you to be for the ban, except you kinda missed the entire ... you're being that guy.

 

[DanGR]

It makes DK, a very good viable tournament character without the infinite, completely unviable. It's also an easy stall tactic.

@Mortimer, it fits the definition.

Edit: dang, this thread moves too fast.

 

[CO18]

There is no point in doing a 5 limit regrab. Its either ban it or dont.

With a 5 limit regrab theyd still be relatively losing their stock and there will be alot of he said she said.

Dedede can just simply regrab 5 times downthrow into a normal cg regrab 5 times then repeat the length of the stage and by then youll rack up 200%.

 

[Gerudo Dragon]

the main reason it isn't ban worthy is because it is restricted to those 6 characters. it isn't universal. if it were universal it would need to be proven that DDD cuold win with only the grab.

It doesn't break the game in short.

I agree full-heartedly. I despise it so much when I'm up against these twits who think using the same move in succession is called a strategy, but in this case it only affects 6 characters, so in whatever tournament DDD is used, simply add a rule which states no Chain Grabbing, which should be a sub-branch of the "Play with Honor" rule.. which is my opinion should always be rule #1.

Of course, if those participating in the tournament were real players and had honor, they would never think of resorting to cheapness to win. Unfourtunatly in this world, "honor" is scarce..

There is no point in doing a 5 limit regrab. Its either ban it or dont.

With a 5 limit regrab theyd still be relatively losing their stock and there will be alot of he said she said.

Dedede can just simply regrab 5 times downthrow into a normal cg regrab 5 times then repeat the length of the stage and by then youll rack up 200%.

5 limit regrab..?

What the **** is with all these pointless rules? What happened to good old-fashioned Brawling anyway? Where I come from, you simply pick a character, pick a stage and duke it out. If there's any sign of cheapness whatsoever, said cheapster is disqualafied. It's called common sense!

 

[cutter]

I agree full-heartedly. I despise it so much when I'm up against these twits who think using the same move in succession is called a strategy, but in this case it only affects 6 characters, so in whatever tournament DDD is used, simply add a rule which states no Chain Grabbing, which should be a sub-branch of the "Play with Honor" rule.. which is my opinion should always be rule #1.

Of course, if those participating in the tournament were real players and had honor, they would never think of resorting to cheapness to win. Unfourtunatly in this world, "honor" is scarce..

very scarce.. *sigh*

"You play to win the game!"

- Herm Edwards