Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[FrostytheSnowThug]

You'll argue that you can only compare video games to other video games, and I'll be stuck. There's not much I can do to that argument, so I concede early.

wtf (edit)is he(/edit) supposed to compare it to? Metaknight is like peanut butter. He's ****ing awesome, and other spreads get *****?

 

[Brinzy]

Stop making assumptions. I compare other things to video games all the time. It's a valid thing to do. What you're saying is NOT valid, however.

- According to many people, MK limits diversity
- People want MK to be banned so it will increase diversity
- It may increase diversity, but alone it means nothing

... Do white people limit diversity? Was diversity the most valid reason for removing segregation? If that were the only proposal (rather than treating blacks like humans), would it have made a difference, you think? The point that was being made before you jumped in was that we should ban to increase diversity. Segregation increased diversity but diversity was not the REASON as to why the ban was made.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

Stop making assumptions. I compare other things to video games all the time. It's a valid thing to do. What you're saying is NOT valid, however.

- According to many people, MK limits diversity
- People want MK to be banned so it will increase diversity
- It may increase diversity, but alone it means nothing

... Do white people limit diversity? Was diversity the most valid reason for removing segregation? If that were the only proposal (rather than treating blacks like humans), would it have made a difference, you think?

I'm gonna say, though. Once this ban happens, instead of every tournament being Wario/diddy/mk, it will just be wario/diddy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Anti-Marth strat: Get him in the air and attack from below. All he can do is Dair, counter, airdodge. Even Snake has better options from such a position.

Reverse Shieldbreaker in the air. Also alot of characters have this weakness. It's a fundamental flaw for most of the cast.

 

[Woozle]

@ Yuna

I've read your spiels before, Yuna. You're just insatiable.

Metaknight isn't better than everyone. That's not the problem- he's not worse than anyone.

55-45 and 50-50 matchups are the worst he has it. That means he can play conter-less through an entire tournament.

I thought last time we argued about this a major premise was countering made him beatable, either through stage or character.

Its becoming more apparent that isn't the case.

 

[|RK|]

Compromises:

-Limit how many MK's can enter a tournament

-MK's can't counterpick

-MK may only be used once per full round

-Start using an official competitive codeset (like no tripping, etc.) and nerf MK's knockback, so he only has about one viable kill move

-Stop Whining


We can't tell who's using MK to win and who's using him because he best fits their style, or is just fun.

 

[Pho]

I'm gonna say, though. Once this ban happens, instead of every tournament being Wario/diddy/mk, it will just be wario/diddy.

Snake mains should now laugh at you.

 

[bobson]

Because that hasn't happened, ever, since the beginning of Brawl.

In small tournaments, yeah. But if WHOBO is any indication, major tourneys are already on the Metaknight train. People aren't putting up with inferior characters when there's a clearly better choice anymore.

I happen to be of the opinion that the frequency with which these characters would appear more often in Top 3 would not be sufficient to justify a ban.

Agreed.

 

[Syde7]

But since there's no clear best character without any disadvantages anymore, different characters would be showing up in the top 3 more often.




So? At the end of the day it becomes
1. Falco
2. Snake
3. Snake
4. King Dedede
5. Diddy Kong

instead of
1. MK
2. MK
3. MK
4. MK
5. Snake

I'm not saying ban MK and suddenly the whole roster's viable, I'm saying that there would be four or five characters competing for top instead of one, and that's a good thing by me.


I'm against the ban, but I agree that the ban would bring at least a little more diversity.

I'll take it a step farther. While I won't list a "placings order" for a "typical tournament" as that's just too hard to pin down without MK... I can offer a list of characters that will increase/stay the same with MK gone. Arranged in no particular order...

1. Snake (=/+)
2. Wario (=/+)
3. ROB (++)
4. DDD (+)
5. Falco (+)
6. GnW (+)
7. Marth (++)
8. Olimar (+)
9. Diddy (+)
10. Mario (++)
11. ICs (+)


Everyone else (++,+,=, and some - to varying degrees)

You may be saying ?WTF? at some of thoe characters and their increase. But, many of those characters have a HORRIBLE matchup against MK, and at least go even with (if not soft/hard) counter the other characters on that list. In other words, the rise of one character will promote the rise of its counterpick characters in order to keep that in check. This is just conjecture, and Im basing it off of my knowledge of ROBs matchups and the notable ZOMGMK matchups of some other chars.

Yes, I meant whiners.

Thought we probably have a few whinos in here somewhere.

Haha. It happens to the best of us. What?! We have whinos somewhere?! *throws a pack of cigarettes at them, watching them fight over it* Sweet.

 

[cutter]

Actually Razer I believe G&W would fare worse in the metagame if MK were banned, because Snake and Marth would be there to fill the void left behind by MK.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

MK doesn't completely counter Snake, diddy, or wario. Those 4 are the top tier.

 

[Red Arremer]

What kind of MK main has serious competitive secondaries? The bad ones.

Why does it mean a MK main would be bad if they would, let's say have D3 as a secondary to deal easier with characters like Snake?

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

IF YOU MAIN SOME ****TY CHARACTER OUTSIDE THE TOP 10 LIKE PEACH YOU DON'T HAVE AN ARGUMENT. YOU'RE NOT PLAYING TO WIN.

It's true.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

Why does it mean a MK main would be bad if they would, let's say have D3 as a secondary to deal easier with characters like Snake?

Snake goes even with d3. don't be a noob.

 

[Mic_128]

Yes. But are you arguing that we, armed with the same argument, should then ban Marth in Melee? AlphaZealot used this logic and this argument to argue for the fact that Marth dominated the Melee scene to such an extent he should be banned (that or he was playing Devil's Advocate, I dunno).

Not to the extent that tournament results were
Marth
Marth
Marth
Fox
Marth

You don't understand what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that people have to prove that with everythat that he has, Meta Knight is "too good" to such an extent he has to be banned.

Not simply name all of the things that he has going for him and hoping to blind people with all the rhetoric. Show us how he's too good, don't just imply it.

*Points to tournament results that are
Meta
Meta
Meta
Snake
Meta*

Has the metagame devolve to the point where you have to choose Meta Knight in order to win or is it just that, a choice? Are people simply abandoning their mains because they want to?

They want to win, so they switch to Metaknight to fight Metaknight.

Also, of course you stand a better chance with Meta Knight than as anyone else. He has no bad match-ups. The question is:
Does he dominate the game to such an extent you have to play as him or not stand a reasonable chance of winning (where "reasonable" is an arbitrary threshold decided upon by the community)?

I don't want to point to the Meta tourney results again v.v

Yes, you stand a better chance as him. But can you stand a good enough chance as other characters that you do not need to switch? Are people simply switching because they want to, not because they have to to stand a chance at winning?

They want to win, and the best chance they have to win against Meta is to be Meta.

You're not getting it, are you? Using the same logic as some people use, we must ban Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff!

Does jiggs have all the same advantages as Meta? No, whcih was my (admittedly half-***** made) point

Have you just not been a part of any debate on this subject insofar? It seems as if you're coming into this not well-versed with the facts since you keep asking me for things I have already provided for the forum one jillion times.

Not to the point of reading through every post of every thread about the banning of Metaknight. This has grown about 3-4 pages in the last hour and I'm about to go to bed during "Peak hour" I don't have enough time (or effort of will) to read all of it.

It doesn't have to come to that. I just want you to show proof that the metagame is going in that direction. As it stands, we're not even close to having to play MK to win/place high. People just choose to.

Yes, people choose to. Because they have to to win

Yes, let's compare a one year old metagame with a seven years old metagame. Tell me, were you around during the Smash Eras where we had Years of Marth, Year of Sheik and Year of Fox (and to al esser extent Falco)? They each had their own times where they won and/or took most top spots of the vast majority of tournaments.

So why hasn't Meta's run shown even a hint of slowing?

Marth shuts down plenty of characters. Just not as many as MK. Many of the characters who are shut down by MK get shut down by Marth, too.

Yes, Marth doesn't shut down as many as Meta. Marth has downsides, counters and a rather lackluster recovery. Marth is fine.

Now, we might be trying to make it the best it can be. But we do not do that through character bans.

You mean, we have yet to do so through character bans. If it's needed, it'll happen.

Because then we'd have to ban a good 7-8 characters!

WRONG! Because every other top tier has counters, disadvantages and will not give a tournament top 5 that's the same name 4 times.

You don't need a secondary if you pick up, say, Marth either. So what if he's got, what, two match-ups that are slightly worse than even? You do not have to pick up a secondary to make up for two 55:45s (or one 55:45 and one 60:40 depending on who you ask)!

If that's true, where are all the dominating Marths? Any Marth player who's ranked high will also have played Meta at some point. I wish I could copy pasta the top 5's that were posted in the SBR's thread about this, but that's buried and I'm not going to spend a week of sifting just to prove one minor point.

It's easier to play as MK, but you do not have to pick up a secondary if you main (for example) Marth.

Link to tournament results with a Marth only player in the top 5 plz

We do not ban things to maximize diversity. We ban things if they limit diversity severely.

Like Meta?

Old Sagat is soft-banned! Also, let's ban Marth, DeDeDe, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco and whoever while we're at it!

Stop spazzing out and suggesting stupid things. ONE character is flat out dominating, so we'll also ban other characters who aren't as good?

How many people aren't using wholly invalid arguments in this thread?

At one time, the majority of the U.S. thought black people were vile and needed to be segregated and that interracial marriage was an abomination. At one time, the majority thought women were lesser beings who shouldn't have equal rights, the ability to vote or even be allowed to wear "men's clothes".

:/

What alternate universe "Play to Win" did you read? MK does not fit the pillars for banning. In fact, if we're going to go by "Play to Win", he won't be banned ever (as things stand at the moment)!

Please quote the passages from "Play to Win" which supports your argument.

It's not a bible.

Meta Knight does not render the game competitively unviable. In fact, several communities are alive and well despite suffering their own equivalents to MK.

It seems either communities are either dominated by Metaknight, or don't have anyone who really plays him.

 

[Red Arremer]

Snake goes even with d3. don't be a noob.

Dedede is a Snake counter. Don't be a noob.

 

[Yuna]

I've read your spiels before, Yuna. You're just insatiable.

Metaknight isn't better than everyone. That's not the problem- he's not worse than anyone.

55-45 and 50-50 matchups are the worst he has it. That means he can play conter-less through an entire tournament.

And this is news how? And this makes him "too good", how? Did I not just state, repeatedly, that simply being the best and having no worse match-ups than 50-50 does not make you so good people have to play you or lose in the past 10 pages alone?

I thought last time we argued about this a major premise was countering made him beatable, either through stage or character.

No it wasn't. Because we've known he's got no counters for quite some time now. And simply lacking such does not make a ban warranted.

Its becoming more apparent that isn't the case.

It's been apparent for, what, over 6 months. At the very least.

Compromises:

-Limit how many MK's can enter a tournament

-MK's can't counterpick

-MK may only be used once per full round

-Start using an official competitive codeset (like no tripping, etc.) and nerf MK's knockback, so he only has about one viable kill move

-Stop Whining


We can't tell who's using MK to win and who's using him because he best fits their style, or is just fun.

I really hope this was tongue-in-cheek.

You may be saying ?WTF? at some of thoe characters and their increase. But, many of those characters have a HORRIBLE matchup against MK, and at least go even with (if not soft/hard) counter the other characters on that list. In other words, the rise of one character will promote the rise of its counterpick characters in order to keep that in check. This is just conjecture, and Im basing it off of my knowledge of ROBs matchups and the notable ZOMGMK matchups of some other chars.

Only if the counterpick character doesn't have plenty of bad match-ups of their own and if their advantage over X-character(s) is worth the effort to learn them (why learn an entirely new character for a 55-45 advantage?).

 

[Syde7]

Actually Razer I believe G&W would fare worse in the metagame if MK were banned, because Snake and Marth would be there to fill the void left behind by MK.

yes. But, speaking from my own knowledge: ROB is a soft-counter to snake, and goes even with Marth. GnW ***** the piss out of ROB. So, GaW would become viable for that, and the DDD matchup; either in the form of a secondary, or a main... depending on personal preference. And, like I said-- its mostly theorycraft... used as an example.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

We should limit this conversation to those players who have competitive merit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna I have proof that metaknight should be banned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBL5GqXbmuU

in the video you see that the stage itself turned against metaknight in order to favor the lesser Marth.
Since the game hates him, it is obvious he is not meant to be there and should be banned.

I declare this argument is irrefutable evidence and should be used for MK's banning.

Spoiler

Seriously though, I can understand the reasons as to why metaknight would be seen as ban worthy. Considering how his dominance in medium-large tourneys has remained the same or risen in some parts. on the other hand, MK isnt really breaking the game either. soooo yeah

We should limit this conversation to those players who have competitive merit.

As in people who compete? I don't need to enter a tournament in order to know metaknights the best character. Unless you are of course pertaining to individuals who actually understand the competitive scene and other stuff.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

In Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Akuma is banned in U.S. tournaments. This is because, as David Sirlin writes, "Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters.

Weird. Doesn't Metaknight have like...50:50's with Diddy, Wario, and Snake?

 

[bobson]

10. Mario (++)

Mario's not going anywhere 'til he stops getting ***** by King Dedede and Game & Watch, sorry. Sure, he'll be better off without Metaknight running around, but so will everyone else.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Weird. Doesn't Metaknight have like...50:50's with Diddy, Wario, and Snake?

At best, on certain stages.
@_@

 

[Yuna]

Not to the extent that tournament results were
Marth
Marth
Marth
Fox
Marth

No, but that's because not that many people played Marths. Nonetheless, Marth won the vast majority of tournaments. I'm just saying.

They want to win, so they switch to Metaknight to fight Metaknight.

You dodged my question. I asked if if the metagame has devolve to the point where you have to play MK.

I don't want to point to the Meta tourney results again v.v

They prove MK is popular. And?

Does jiggs have all the same advantages as Meta? No, whcih was my (admittedly half-***** made) point

The point is that "breaking X-thing which is a pillar of Smash" was not reasons enough for a ban. Jigglypuff was only brought up as a counter-argument to that. Stop taking what I say out of context.

Not to the point of reading through every post of every thread about the banning of Metaknight. This has grown about 3-4 pages in the last hour and I'm about to go to bed during "Peak hour" I don't have enough time (or effort of will) to read all of it.

I've personally brought these games up several times in every single thread on this issue. So you must've missed them all.

Yes, people choose to. Because they have to to win

That is not the question and you know it.

So why hasn't Meta's run shown even a hint of slowing?

Because more and more people are playing as him? Or because the good players continue playing as him?

You mean, we have yet to do so through character bans. If it's needed, it'll happen.

No. Because if we ban Meta Knight, it will most probably not be because we want to make the game as best as it can be (because that'd require a ton of bans), but because we want to make the metagame better than it currently is.

WRONG! Because every other top tier has counters, disadvantages and will not give a tournament top 5 that's the same name 4 times.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said that if we want to make the metagame the best it can be, we'd have to ban 7-8 characters.

If that's true, where are all the dominating Marths? Any Marth player who's ranked high will also have played Meta at some point. I wish I could copy pasta the top 5's that were posted in the SBR's thread about this, but that's buried and I'm not going to spend a week of sifting just to prove one minor point.

I forgot to mention that MK would have to banned for Marth to only have two slightly disadvantageous match-ups. There's a lot of MKs running around, which is why Marth is not doing as well as in my hypothetical scenario.

Link to tournament results with a Marth only player in the top 5 plz

I claimed anything remotely like this when?

Stop spazzing out and suggesting stupid things. ONE character is flat out dominating, so we'll also ban other characters who aren't as good?

You're not even reading the posts I'm quoting and replying to! If you did, you'd see there's a reason why I'm spazzing out: to show the people I'm replying to how ridiculous their logic and arguments are!

It's not a bible.

I didn't say it was! Why the hell did you reply to me with this?! All I did was demand the poster substantiate his ludicrous claims.

Mic_128, I expected better than this coming from you, as a respected member of this community and as a moderator (especially as a moderator). Taking people's statements out of context (which includes ignoring what they're replying to and only replying to their replies), misreading people's statements, strawmanning, this is beneath you (there was a few valid points in there too, but this post I'm replying to was mostly bad debating manners).

 

[|RK|]

I really hope this was tongue-in-cheek.

No. It was a list of some of the compromises that people have posted so far. Mine is stop whining. But I know there will be no compromise.

 

[Minwu]

Why does it mean a MK main would be bad if they would, let's say have D3 as a secondary to deal easier with characters like Snake?

Uh, because MK can fight Snake perfectly fine? It's like Snake vs. Marth on ground; but you don't get gimped, edgeguarded, or comboed when you're knocked offstage while Snake does. How is that not worse than even for Snake? That's just like seconding D3 to deal with DK easier.

How often do you see M2K using D3 in tournies recently? Yeah he doesn't second D3 anymore. He's a pure MK main like Dojo and Inui, who also place consistently in the top.

 

[Kyaputen-Shado]

Hum, this question makes me hesitate... Meta Knight has a lot of advantages, of course: tournaments' results just prove it (five MK players in the top 5 from a tounament I heard of). What's more, he doesn't have any really bad MU against the other characters of the game. If we decide to ban him, then Snake would be the new top tier. And as said in the other messages, some characters can counter him easily, whereas it's not the case of MK...

On the opposite, lots of smashers may not approve this, maybe 'cause they main Meta Knight or that the Smash Community and tournaments' organizers never banned a character in the previous game. It's probably time to change, by setting up some rules for MK players...

 

[Red Arremer]

How often do you see M2K using D3 in tournies recently? Yeah he doesn't second D3 anymore. He's a pure MK main like Dojo and Inui, who also place consistently in the top.

Dojo mained MK since ever. M2K is an extremely skilled player, and you can't really compare him to most other players, as he would place just as good if he used Dedede. M2K switched to and Dojo used Meta Knight before he became first on the tier list and Snake was considered being the best in the game.
And as far as I remember, Inui still mains Snake.

 

[bobson]

How often do you see M2K using D3 in tournies recently? Yeah he doesn't second D3 anymore. He's a pure MK main like Dojo and Inui, who also place consistently in the top.

I think Inui still has his man-crush on Snake, actually.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

How often do you see M2K using D3 in tournies recently? Yeah he doesn't second D3 anymore. He's a pure MK main like Dojo and Inui, who also place consistently in the top.

Dojo has been MK, as well as myself and Spam since Before the game launched in America.

M2K said MK fits his playstyle best, and has logged over 1000 hours in practice.

How many hours have any of you logged in pure practice with your ****ty main? Oh, 100 hours with Donkey Kong? Awesome.

Inui is a snake main who OFFs metaknight.

 

[Syde7]

Originally Posted by Sirlin
In Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Akuma is banned in U.S. tournaments. This is because, as David Sirlin writes, "Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters.

Weird. Doesn't Metaknight have like...50:50's with Diddy, Wario, and Snake?

There are 37 characters (depending if you want to separate some characters transformations or not). MK supposedly goes 50:50 with FOUR out of them (MK dittos included). That is roughly 10% of the roster that he goes even with. That means 34 (MK dittos included) 92% have unfavorable matchups. Out of those, how many simply CAN NOT beat him?

If you are going to use THAT argument... lets look and see if more than half of the roster simply CAN NOT beat him in that the matchups are INCREDIBLY one sided (65/35 and below). While I understand that ratios are arbitrary and are based on skill, assume (as the ratios are MEANT to be used) that players are of EQUAL skill.

Mario's not going anywhere 'til he stops getting ***** by King Dedede and Game & Watch, sorry. Sure, he'll be better off without Metaknight running around, but so will everyone else.

Again, he develops as a viable counterpick against the ROB increase. If someone doesn't want to play as GaW vs a ROB in the matchup, they have the OPTION of changing to Mario. But, without ROBs presence, there is NO need for a Mario.

The point that your missing isn't that these characters will DO better (I admit I phrased it horribly in the original post concerning this), but that they have both the option of being VIABLE as at least a SECONDARY based solely on another character's improved frequency and performance. More options creates more diversity.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

There are 37 characters (depending if you want to separate some characters transformations or not). MK supposedly goes 50:50 with FOUR out of them (MK dittos included). That is roughly 10% of the roster that he goes even with. That means 34 (MK dittos included) 92% have unfavorable matchups. Out of those, how many simply CAN NOT beat him?

I've beaten Spam's meta with Captain Falcon.

Some characters can NEVER EVER EVER beat Akuma.

I beat the 2nd (3rd?) best mk in the country with Falcon.

 

[Mic_128]

No, but that's because not that many people played Marths. Nonetheless, Marth won the vast majority of tournaments. I'm just saying.

Maybe Marths did with the majority of tournaments, but they didn't dominate the entire top 5.


You dodged my question. I asked if if the metagame has devolve to the point where you have to play MK.

Oh. To answer that question, if your opponent is Meta and hasn't had experience with your main, yes.

I've personally brought these games up several times in every single thread on this issue. So you must've missed them all.

Yes, I must have.


That is not the question and you know it.

the post is burried too far for me to be bothered digging out because I'm about to pass out, but basically, you need to vs a Metaknight? The best chance you have against it is to go Metaknight also.

Because more and more people are playing as him? Or because the good players continue playing as him?

Both. Why? Because far and away he is far the best character with no disadvantages.

No. Because if we ban Meta Knight, it will most probably not be because we want to make the game as best as it can be (because that'd require a ton of bans), but because we want to make the metagame better than it currently is.


Did you even read what I wrote? I said that if we want to make the metagame the best it can be, we'd have to ban 7-8 characters.

We're not aiming to make it "the best," just better than No items, Final D, Metaknight only.

You're not even reading the posts I'm quoting and replying to! If you did, you'd see there's a reason why I'm spazzing out: to show the people I'm replying to how ridiculous their logic and arguments are!

By using ridiculous logic and arguments back?

I didn't say it was! Why the hell did you reply to me with this?! All I did was demand the poster substantiate his ludicrous claims.

Maybe I'm just tired of people acting like that book is the be all end all rules for all competitive gaming, much the same way some people think the bible is the be all end all rules for life.

Mic_128, I expected better than this coming from you, as a respected member of this community and as a moderator (especially as a moderator). Taking people's statements out of context (which includes ignoring what they're replying to and only replying to their replies), misreading people's statements, strawmanning, this is beneath you (there was a few valid points in there too, but this post I'm replying to was mostly bad debating manners).

I knew you'd eventually come to personal insults.

 

[Minwu]

Dojo mained MK since ever.

What does that tell you?

M2K switched to and Dojo used Meta Knight before he became first on the tier list and Snake was considered being the best in the game.

..It tells you that he (and M2K later on in the metagame's lifespan) had the foresight to know that MK would be the best in the game. That D3 has no more tournament merit than any other character to an MK tourney main. Things like Mach Ftilt and the M2K combo had to be refined and mastered way before they went public.

Yeah, Snake and Olimar were thought to be the best characters in the game for maybe a couple months after the game's world release. That doesn't mean they really were the best.


Also, M2K may have had info about all the characters that was just being discovered as he dropped D3, being an SBR member and all.

 

[Red Arremer]

What does that tell you?

It tells me that Meta Knight suited Dojo's playstyle the best, thus Dojo picked Meta Knight up, of course. The same reason anyone would pick up a main.
The same goes for Mew2King, who, if I remember correctly, himself stated that MK fits his playstyle better than King Dedede.

..It tells you that he (and M2K later on in the metagame's lifespan) had the foresight to know that MK would be the best in the game. Things like Mach Ftilt and the M2K combo had to be refined and mastered way before they went public.

lol. So basically you're saying - in the timespan when Snake was thought to be the best character in the game - that M2K and Dojo chuckled into their fists and thought "Oh my, those silly other people. They don't know yet that Meta Knight is the best character, not Snake. But I will show them. Muahahahaha!"

Yeah, Snake and Olimar were thought to be the best characters in the game for maybe a couple months after the game's world release. That doesn't mean they really were the best.

And yet several top players think that Snake can actually surpass Meta Knight on the tierlist given some time.

 

[Nic64]

What kind of MK main has serious competitive secondaries? The bad ones.

teh spamerer, second best in the country, has used others like snake and wario in tournament. I thought I read somewhere in the WHOBO conflict thread that dojo had used kirby/diddy for a tournament somewhat recently but idk...DSF also uses Snake, DDD, and Wario, inui uses snake, redhalberd uses falco, affinity seconds DDD, lots of other examples. MK is the best character to use solely but he does benefit from secondaries for easier matchups just like anyone, DDD particularly is a great second character for an MK main

man so many bad MK's with their secondaries lol

Weird. Doesn't Metaknight have like...50:50's with Diddy, Wario, and Snake?

I think wario is close to 50:50 if you can't plank(in which case MK wins) but I think MK has a slight advantage on diddy and snake regardless. Not that this nitpicking is hugely relevant, it's a very winnable matchup for these characters and a few others...

 

[Minwu]

lol. So basically you're saying - in the timespan when Snake was thought to be the best character in the game - that M2K and Dojo chuckled into their fists and thought "Oh my, those silly other people. They don't know yet that Meta Knight is the best character, not Snake. But I will show them. Muahahahaha!"

Yes. That's exactly how it went. We(as a community at large, not individuals) didn't know yet, they showed us.

And yet several players think that Snake can actually surpass Meta Knight on the tierlist given some time.

I hope you don't, because it's not going to happen.



Also if someone seconds MK to CP as opposed to MK mains seconding D3 for even better CPs, That's different. They're not necessarily bad. Same for expirementing with other characters.

 

[FrostytheSnowThug]

What does that tell you?





..It tells you that he (and M2K later on in the metagame's lifespan) had the foresight to know that MK would be the best in the game. That D3 has no more tournament merit than any other character to an MK tourney main. Things like Mach Ftilt and the M2K combo had to be refined and mastered way before they went public.

Yeah, Snake and Olimar were thought to be the best characters in the game for maybe a couple months after the game's world release. That doesn't mean they really were the best.


Also, M2K may have had info about all the characters that was just being discovered as he dropped D3, being an SBR member and all.

Uh, no. the SBR is garbage. Look at the current tier list. You should consider NJ the sbr, since we made the current ruleset.

M2k, even when he was maining MK got ***** by Cort's Snake. He said snkae was the best and both him and Spam agree that in the highest level of metagame Snake would be untouchable. I disagree, as Olimar clearly would be the winner.

And umm.. Aren't you from Midwest? Shouldn't you be griping about Mountaineers and Pokemon?

 

[Yuna]

I knew you'd eventually come to personal insults.

It's not personal insults if it's true. You totally pulled my statements out of context, strawmanned me and misread several parts. I refuse to respond to the rest of your post seeing as how you refuse to acknowledge this.

I could do a side-by-side-quote-comparison, but you still wouldn't acknowledge it.

Oh what the heck, here it is (paraphrased):
(Regarding Marth not taking Top 5, I never said Marth dominated the metagame to the same extent as MK currently is. In fact, I debated AZ vehemently on this back when)

We're not aiming to make it "the best," just better than No items, Final D, Metaknight only.

For goodness sake!

Poster: We're aiming to make it the best it can be!
Me: No we're not! If we were, we'd have to ban many characters!
You: What are you talking about?! They're nowhere as good as MK!
Me: Umm... I never said that.

By using ridiculous logic and arguments back?

No, by using the same ridiculous logic and argument they're using to show them just how ridiculous it is by employing them to support the ban of things that any logical person can see shouldn't be banned.

Maybe I'm just tired of people acting like that book is the be all end all rules for all competitive gaming, much the same way some people think the bible is the be all end all rules for life.

But why did you reply to me with that since I never claimed that?!

Some guy: The Bible of Competitive gaming supports banning MK!
Me: Really? Where?
You: (in response to me) It is not a Bible!
Me: Why are you replying with this to me?!

Irrefutable proof you totally strawmanning me and pulled my statements totally out of context and/or misread large parts of my posts. I could do actual quote-comparisons, but do I really have to? Do you still insist to having done nothing of what you stand accused of doing?

I think Inui still has his man-crush on Snake, actually.

It's not a man-crush if he's gay.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes. That's exactly how it went. We didn't know yet, they showed us.

lol. Of course. Dojo and M2K both got the game and thought "Hmm... Let's pick up Meta Knight, because I know he's the best without anyone else agreeing with me, and that's the reason why I pick him up. Not because I like to play as this character. No, I want to show the world this character is the best."