Should the Gloves come off? Competitive Equipment Discussion

[Raziek]

Equipment is extremely random and there are literally 'infinite' possible equipment pieces according to what they said on the Treehouse cast.

Side tournaments at BEST.

 

[Unbounded]

Equipment is extremely random and there are literally 'infinite' possible equipment pieces according to what they said on the Treehouse cast.

Side tournaments at BEST.

What if we set a numerical stat range such that the majority of the players at the competitive level would be able to achieve all of said stats?

I.E. after some arbitrary parameter, (iunno, every custom move unlocked), we show statistically that a majority of the players who have reached this point (also the point where they'd be tournament-ready), would be able to pull off the same things with customs?

So pretty much everyone who would actually go to a tournament would pretty much be on even footing when it comes to custom equipment.

The Wii U version is a totally different story and we could cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[Raziek]

I just don't see the point, honestly. You can achieve some seriously ridiculous stuff with equipment. It's not like, small things. It's like, 18 damage Lucina fair. Ludicrous circle-stalling and runaway potential.

You'd have to set so many surgical limitations that I don't think it's at all worth it.

 

[Unbounded]

I just don't see the point, honestly. You can achieve some seriously ridiculous stuff with equipment. It's not like, small things. It's like, 18 damage Lucina fair. Ludicrous circle-stalling and runaway potential.

You'd have to set so many surgical limitations that I don't think it's at all worth it.

I wouldn't really set anything besides the 'every value has to fall within this range, and the total value has to fall within this range' sort of thing. Since you'd be able to customize your defense, offense, and speed any serious attacker can be checked by a serious defender, any hardcore defender can be outsped, and so on and so forth. The balance at that stage would start falling into the hands of the players.

Really though, it'd probably be best to just hold a bunch of 'for fun' tournaments with the floodgates completely open just so we can see what happens. The results may be surprising.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ Raziek

for hilarity's sake, i decided to see what shulk lives at against a bowser ftilt with 200 def equipment and custom shield stance

... he lives to about 460% when hit from the middle of FD.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Raziek

for hilarity's sake, i decided to see what shulk lives at against a bowser ftilt with 200 def equipment and custom shield stance

... he lives to about 460% when hit from the middle of FD.

If Shulk is able to survive that long with the proper equipment, I'd hate to think about how long it would take to bring him down if he's giant, or even metallic.

 

[Chauzu]

I'm with those who don't want equipment but I still understand the people that want to, and that it's important that their opinion isn't ridiculed upon. (Not calling out any names, just a feeling I can get from some posts when reading through the whole thread).

The argument that is the nail in the coffin imo is that damage calcing will be impossible and this is a very important part of competetive Smash. I still hope equipment can be a side event though, has been said before, as it is still surely a fun meta, more so than items.

 

[Pazzo.]

There's no telling how complicated things will get... after all, it's not like equipment is consistent from system, to system.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Make side torunaments for it at first, if they prove alright, we try brinign them to the main events. if they stick, they stick.

 

[san.]

Shield stance Shulk with full defense is unfair That poor fellow can probably barely move, haha. It is disappointing that scaling is very strong, though, but more data can only help. I still think it should be given a chance in side tourneys. There may be some scenes that end up liking equipment down the line like mid tier tourneys in the previous games and would benefit from any knowledge gained early on. It'll be interesting on how the game can handle stacked attack boosts vs. stacked defense. I hope that speed doesn't allow circle/air camping with characters like Jigglypuff.

 

[Morbi]

Everyone is complaining about shield stance Shulk, but I would be willing to bet that attack enhanced Ganondorf hard-counters that build.


But seriously, it is an interesting concept; however, I have never been utterly fond of it. This is coming from someone who vehemently advocates for custom move-sets. The inherent issue is the "damage calculation" problem, of course. I feel as though the arbitrary numbers provided (plus 57, minus 23) are a little too difficult to incorporate into a player's mind-set prior to the match. Honestly, if people are already talking about broken builds (predominately pertaining to our dear friend, Shulk) the introduction to equipment probably does not entail the most fluid transition into the game. The possibilities intrigue me, nevertheless. In my experience, if there is a lot of opposition to a concept, it is probably not going to happen.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Given the random nature of the stat boosts, it could be rather difficult and time consuming to ensure that every setup has the same options available. Balance concerns aren't even on the table until convenience is addressed.

Customizations can be transferred from 3DS to Wii U, so people can just bring their own stuff to tournaments; it won't be any more inconvenient than Pokemon or MtG tournaments.

Everyone is complaining about shield stance Shulk, but I would be willing to bet that attack enhanced Ganondorf hard-counters that build.


But seriously, it is an interesting concept; however, I have never been utterly fond of it. This is coming from someone who vehemently advocates for custom move-sets. The inherent issue is the "damage calculation" problem, of course. I feel as though the arbitrary numbers provided (plus 57, minus 23) are a little too difficult to incorporate into a player's mind-set prior to the match. Honestly, if people are already talking about broken builds (predominately pertaining to our dear friend, Shulk) the introduction to equipment probably does not entail the most fluid transition into the game. The possibilities intrigue me, nevertheless. In my experience, if there is a lot of opposition to a concept, it is probably not going to happen.

I think when we know a bit more about it, the numbers will become a lot less arbitrary. Everybody's going to get a chance to use equipment when they get the game as well, don't forget. It's not like it's going to be something that we're all confused about.

Equipment is extremely random and there are literally 'infinite' possible equipment pieces according to what they said on the Treehouse cast.

Side tournaments at BEST.

It's not as random as most people would have you believe. There is variation from piece to piece, but it's within boundaries. I think it's best not to make snap decisions about it until we've got to understand its nuances, all that does is stifle the game.

I agree that custom moves and equipment games are unlikely to replace regular tournaments, nor would anybody want them to. Given the variety already intrinsic to Smash Bros, I think it would good to actually represent that variety in the competitive scene, don't you?

 

[Thani]

I do wonder what the exact numbers translate into. Like, at what value does Attack double your damage, or what value of Defense will decrease damage you take by half, or what value Speed will double your movement and jump speeds. Once that stuff becomes known with testing, the numbers won't seem so arbitrary anymore when you can guestimate how strong certain aspects will be buffed or debuffed, percentage-wise.

EDIT: Another thing that I wonder is if other Smash Run stats are lumped into the Attack, Defense, and Speed. I mean, look at Speed. It clearly affects both movement and jump, yet in Smash Run, Speed and Jump had separate stats independent of each other. Does that mean Attack includes both the Attack and Special stats from Smash Run? And finally, does that mean Defense includes both Smash Run stats of Defense and Arms?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_Run#List_of_power-ups

If so, then boosting Defense for stronger throws and greater grab range could be a thing.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i posted this in another thread, but here...

i think Equipment has the potential, but you have to do a lot of preparation and it's harder to train for it due the random aspect of getting equips. It brings quite a lot of new stuff to the meta, including some rather polarizing new playstyles, so i think they are better left as side-events; or at best standing side-by-side with single competivie play like Doubles.

 

[parkavenue]

Customizations can be transferred from 3DS to Wii U, so people can just bring their own stuff to tournaments; it won't be any more inconvenient than Pokemon or MtG tournaments.

Unless someone doesn't have both games. You're putting the onus on wii u smashers to buy a 3DS and the game just to transfer their own unique equipment to a wii u.

I think when we know a bit more about it, the numbers will become a lot less arbitrary. Everybody's going to get a chance to use equipment when they get the game as well, don't forget. It's not like it's going to be something that we're all confused about.

What would probably happen is that everyone would find the best stat numbers and stick to them. Seems like it would be a lot like stat management in WoW tbh. I don't know if that kind of thing appeals to a lot of smashers.

It's not as random as most people would have you believe. There is variation from piece to piece, but it's within boundaries. I think it's best not to make snap decisions about it until we've got to understand its nuances, all that does is stifle the game.

Maybe it's not as docile as you make it seem, either. It sure would suck to have to grind for a particular pair of boots to hit the 'optimum' stat spread, wouldn't it? I don't think it is far outside the realm of possibility.

I agree that custom moves and equipment games are unlikely to replace regular tournaments, nor would anybody want them to. Given the variety already intrinsic to Smash Bros, I think it would good to actually represent that variety in the competitive scene, don't you?

I just don't particularly like this argument for anything. Sure you can have side events, but how many times do you want to splinter the community? Melee, PM, Brawl and now Smash 4 all have their own scenes. Yes there is overlap (maybe even significant overlap) but the more nuances you add the harder it gets to really build a group up.

Melee, Brawl, PM, Smash3DS, Smash3DS w/ Custom Moves, S3DS w/ moves and equipment, SmashWiiU, Smash WiiU w/ Custom moves.... the list goes on. I guess everyone is entitled to their 'side events' and what have you but the more variations on rulesets there are the harder it will be for the community to come together.[/quote]

 

[EndgameN]

I believe this video provides pretty good insight into why equipment and possibly even custom movesets will likely be banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrfrvuyats&feature=youtu.be

 

[Gidy]

I believe this video provides pretty good insight into why equipment and possibly even custom movesets will likely be banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrfrvuyats&feature=youtu.be

OMG THAT'S SO HILARIOUSLY OP.

But I think it was the Strength buff that made those arrows kill. Custom movesets are still up for debate.

 

[Thani]

Silver Arrows deal 20 damage fully charged normally, yet with the equipment buffs, did 36 according to the Sandbag dummy. Adding up the equipment totals, he had +130 Attack equipped. I guess around 150 Attack is needed to double one's offensive power. I wonder if the same scaling applies to the other stats.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm usually one for open-mindedness but unfortunately stat badges don't make the cut for being reasonable additions to a logical competitive scene for Smash 4. The type of results you can achieve with some combinations on some characters reaches in to absurdity, and it in no way is reasonable or even rational for competitive play.

Maybe side tournaments. Sorry.

 

[<π]

@ Raziek

for hilarity's sake, i decided to see what shulk lives at against a bowser ftilt with 200 def equipment and custom shield stance

... he lives to about 460% when hit from the middle of FD.

WOW! how fast could he kill though? How fast could he move?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

WOW! how fast could he kill though? How fast could he move?

His damage output was about 60% of his normal damage and he moved very slowly.

But that was without DI as well, so I theorize he could live possibly up to 600% because of how strong DI is at high percentages now.

 

[Spirst]

No way should equipment be allowed. It's too big an external element to be factored into a competitive fighting game focused on the core character gameplay and player skill. It might be barely tolerable if allowed but with very heavy moderation, but I don't feel like it's worth the effort.

 

[<π]

His damage output was about 60% of his normal damage and he moved very slowly.

But that was without DI as well, so I theorize he could live possibly up to 600% because of how strong DI is at high percentages now.

That's crazy... I can't wait to see what happens with the meta... I know for a FACT if it doesn't start here on smash boards someone somewhere will get online full custom events going.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Unless someone doesn't have both games. You're putting the onus on wii u smashers to buy a 3DS and the game just to transfer their own unique equipment to a wii u.

Well, that's obvious. It's just the way it has to be. It's not practical for any one machine to have every possible build available, and I don't think a sane person would expect that. People don't go to Pokemon tournaments and expect their teams to be provided for them. If people are playing with equipment, it would be best as a 3DS-centric side event.

What would probably happen is that everyone would find the best stat numbers and stick to them. Seems like it would be a lot like stat management in WoW tbh. I don't know if that kind of thing appeals to a lot of smashers.

Eh, maybe. That's just speculation. If there is a "best" setup, then the whole thing isn't going to work. Whether or not it appeals to most Smashers is totally irrelevant. It only has to appeal to the people it appeals to.

Maybe it's not as docile as you make it seem, either. It sure would suck to have to grind for a particular pair of boots to hit the 'optimum' stat spread, wouldn't it? I don't think it is far outside the realm of possibility.

That's entirely possible. We don't know the full extent of it yet, so more experimentation is needed.

I just don't particularly like this argument for anything. Sure you can have side events, but how many times do you want to splinter the community? Melee, PM, Brawl and now Smash 4 all have their own scenes. Yes there is overlap (maybe even significant overlap) but the more nuances you add the harder it gets to really build a group up.

I hear this a lot. "Please don't divide the community!". All that really means is "everybody should do what I want to do". Which is nonsense. If people want to play with equipment, or items, or on Rumble Falls, just f***ing leave them to it.

Melee, Brawl, PM, Smash3DS, Smash3DS w/ Custom Moves, S3DS w/ moves and equipment, SmashWiiU, Smash WiiU w/ Custom moves.... the list goes on. I guess everyone is entitled to their 'side events' and what have you but the more variations on rulesets there are the harder it will be for the community to come together.

Even if people want to play wacky side events, we're all still going to want to play in regular tournaments as well. The idea that we can shatter the community by not regulating everybody's activities is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Rakurai]

OMG THAT'S SO HILARIOUSLY OP.

But I think it was the Strength buff that made those arrows kill. Custom movesets are still up for debate.

It was a 120ish point strength increase coupled with a critical hit ability that causes attacks to do tripled damage and knockback at a 20% rate.

In any case, the fact that the official tournament that's being held shortly after release is permitting almost any type of custom gear ought to be good for some laughs.

 

[Gidy]

It was a 120ish point strength increase coupled with a critical hit ability that causes attacks to do tripled damage and knockback at a 20% rate.

In any case, the fact that the official tournament that's being held shortly after release is permitting almost any type of custom gear ought to be good for some laughs.

inb4 m2k ragequits

 

[Rakurai]

What I don't get is why they banned one of the RNG based abilities (Start sudden death with 100% damage at a 50% rate), yet permitted critical hits.

Having what can essentially amount to a 20% chance of KOing your opponent has far more potential to be a game changer then slightly better odds of winning in the odd event a sudden death occurs.

 

[Hitzel]

Does any combination of equipment make you transfer momentum from dash to jump, or have a true dash dance or decrease landing lag on the laggier moves? If so great I'm all for it.

There actually does appear to be a secondary effect that reduces landing lag...

 

[Unbounded]

Just a thought, how would that death arrow link vs that superbuff bowser play out?

I mean, one hits really, really hard, and the other can take hits really, really well....

 

[Rakurai]

I get the impression super buff Bowser would probably have the advantage in that match-up.

Link seems like he was really light judging how far he got sent by the one attack he did get hit by, and anyone with a brain could defend themselves against his arrow spamming.

The speed decrease from having defense gear doesn't seem as extreme as the weight decrease from having attack gear, as far as I've seen.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

IMO the thing that will really kill equipment is the powerful special effects it can have. Respawn with a free final smashes? A random chance for your hits to do triple damage and knockback? It was probably going to have to be banned just for being randomly generated and in that way not of reasonably fair and equal access to all players, but some of the effects it can have really do seem just obviously gamebreaking. There's also one that seems to give you a huge running speed bonus but introduces a chance to randomly trip; I have to say that is definitely my favorite equipment effect, and I haven't even played the full game yet. I get a sense this system was put in to let you do ridiculous and hilarious things with no real thought to how much it can warp gameplay, and that's great but not suited for tournaments. We'll test it out for sure just to be sure, but I give equipment a very low probability of proving itself to be any different way.

This, of course, has no bearing at all on custom movesets which are an overwhelmingly promising system that stand to really make smash 4 into the great competitive game it wants to be. Custom equipment will be fun to toy with but has dim prospects. We must resolutely steel ourselves against even the vaguest of thoughts that equipment and movesets have any possible or even suggestible connection. I still see some people lumping them together, and any consideration of these systems as linked is definitely the biggest thing I'm staunchly opposed to.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well, considering the video evidence now presented, I'd say we'd have to either limit or ban equipment. Unfortunate but it is what it is.

Custom moves however should be more than enough.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I believe this video provides pretty good insight into why equipment and possibly even custom movesets will likely be banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrfrvuyats&feature=youtu.be

Oh wow. I only just got around to watching this. Even if we decide that equipment is too broken to be competitively viable, it's sure going to be a lot of fun.

I think I could probably equip a character to counter that build though. Even if equipment is too OP, I'd still like to come up with a tournament ruleset for it, for side events. It just seems like too much fun to ignore.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm not seeing anything that would make custom moves banworthy in that video.

Link's Silver Bow custom normally does 20% damage when it's fully charged, and while it does have KO potential, it's not better then his smashes,

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I'm not seeing anything that would make custom moves banworthy in that video.

Link's Silver Bow custom normally does 20% damage when it's fully charged, and while it does have KO potential, it's not better then his smashes,

On its own, the fact that Link's bow can get random critical hits to do 100% damage is scary but not lethal. However, Link has more than just that one move and unless you have a build to reduce knockback, you are going to lose a stock pretty quick.

Derp, I read that as custom equipment. Gah, I'm tired.

 

[Rakurai]

The critical hit ability seems like something that would be sensible to ban even from tournaments that permit custom equipment.

Tripled knockback can turn practically anything into a KO move at higher percents, and the extra damage is just icing on the cake. Plus you can presumably increase the crit rate by stacking the ability with two or more pieces of gear, which would make it even broken.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh wow. I only just got around to watching this. Even if we decide that equipment is too broken to be competitively viable, it's sure going to be a lot of fun.

I think I could probably equip a character to counter that build though. Even if equipment is too OP, I'd still like to come up with a tournament ruleset for it, for side events. It just seems like too much fun to ignore.

If attack boosting equipment is capable of boosting damage like that, it makes me wonder how the defense boosting equipment will reduce the amount of damage that a fighter receives.

I guess in theory, a +30 attack boost would be neutralized by a +30 defense boost, but there may be more to the customization than meets the eye.

 

[fractalWizard]

I would also like to note that if you only have the starting badges, and you out all 3 on, then you automatically get +7 to all stats. However, I think you don't get noticeable differences except by 10s.

What I mean is, there's not too much difference between 57 And 61, but there is a slight difference between 51 and 61.

 

[guedes the brawler]

side-events seems to be as far as equips will go.

 

[Untouch]

I believe this video provides pretty good insight into why equipment and possibly even custom movesets will likely be banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrfrvuyats&feature=youtu.be

That's just the equipment.
He has a "random crit" item equipped.

The fact that that item exists means we shouldn't allow equipment, we can either be lax as hell and allow VERY broken items, or ban everything.