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Meta Shulk Match-Ups: Directory/General Discussion – Engage the Enemy

WindHero

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I haven't really seen much discussion about :4shulk: vs :4feroy:, so I'd like to put just a couple little feelers out. I know it's still rather soon after Roy's release, but I'd like to have at least a little idea what to do when he pops up as an opponent.

I had two matches against Roy this morning, my very first experience fighting Roy in Smash 4. I lost the first by a narrow margin, and won the second somehow even though I died a horrible SD early on in the fight. What I gathered:
In Shulk's favor:
+ Superior range: I had more than one instance in the fight where Roy was sitting there, charging his Neutral B. If I tried to jump in and interrupt, he would instantly let go. However, Shulk's aerials are great for interrupting if you use the tip of the blade. Also, you can stand just outside the range of his B, and connect with FSmash for a satisfying punish.
+ Vision: OK, this is an advantage in a lot of MUs, but I found it particularly effective against most of Roy's edgeguarding options. My opponent seemed somewhat savvy, using some clever tactics, but he seemed very reluctant to chase me off stage for any KOs. (Who can blame him with Roy's recovery?) He often used neutral or up B at the edge of the stage when I was returning, the latter of which was a huge Vision bait. I rarely had difficulty recovering from off stage. JVC also seems to be a risky but highly rewarding option when he uses Neutral B.
+ Strong air game: If you can get Roy off the edge of the stage, Shulk can have some good fun with Roy, especially in Jump mode. Smash seems a little risky here, but a single FAir can make recovery a dream for Roy. My opponent was very on top of his air dodges though, so I didn't really get to do this much in the first match. Shulk's aerials really space out Roy quite well though, especially if you can condition him into shielding or countering, leading to an easy grab.
+ Roy's ending lag: Shulk technically has worse ending lag as far as I can tell, but Roy's dodged attacks were easy to punish in those matches.

Now, in Roy's favor:
- High attack power: Roy really kept me on my toes with how strong his attacks were. I wasn't expecting that level of power going into the MU, and retaliating with Buster only exacerbates the problem unless you make sure not to whiff your attacks or hit his shield. I was already in kill range at about 115%, maybe a little more.
- Strong combo options: Getting caught in Roy's Dancing Blade is a big no-no. I lost the first match because I wasn't cautious enough around that side B. His other specials don't combo too well, but some of his tilt and smash attacks seemed to flow into each other. Also, some of his attacks are multi-hit strikes, like USmash.
- Ground speed: It wasn't a huge problem, but Roy's ground speed kept me on the defensive sometimes. Whenever I whiffed something, Roy wasted no time in rushing in for a punish. He doesn't have Marth's speed, but it felt at least equal to Vanilla Shulk. (Note: I have not examined any frame data, this could be placebo.)

Finally, I'll just say a bit on Monado Arts:
Jump should be used as normal, but I think it's kinda risky at high%s. Roy has a lot of kill options.
Speed seemed useful for the grab game, but it required conditioning to work well. My opponent was quite Counter-happy, and my initial attempts to NAir him backfired until I started mixing in grabs. The lower damage is noticeable though.
Shield... I didn't really use much. Roy usually killed me around 120% or so, well before I consider pulling out Shield. I also SD'd once with an accidental activation.
Buster: a really risky option, considering Roy's already-high power. However, it did help to get him up to kill levels fairly easily.
Smash: Also risky, but no different from the other times it's risky. I liked to use it for chasing off stage.

Overall, I lost the first match due to unfamiliarity with Roy, but the second match was more interesting. I SD'd when Roy was only at 41% on his first stock, yet I managed to come back and win by using all of Shulk's tools. The biggest help was when I activated Buster when Roy was at 50% on his second stock, and landed a long string of attacks. I punished his Neutral B with a FSmash, chased him with a UAir, UTilted him when he was coming back down, altogether getting him around 128% before Buster ran out. That was enough to launch him far enough off stage that he couldn't reach the ledge.

Still, this was only two matches. Feel free to disregard half the stuff here, I'm merely tossing a few ideas out to see if my idea is in the ballpark for those with more experience in this MU.
 

spiderfreak1011

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I haven't really seen much discussion about :4shulk: vs :4feroy:, so I'd like to put just a couple little feelers out. I know it's still rather soon after Roy's release, but I'd like to have at least a little idea what to do when he pops up as an opponent.

I had two matches against Roy this morning, my very first experience fighting Roy in Smash 4. I lost the first by a narrow margin, and won the second somehow even though I died a horrible SD early on in the fight. What I gathered:
In Shulk's favor:
+ Superior range: I had more than one instance in the fight where Roy was sitting there, charging his Neutral B. If I tried to jump in and interrupt, he would instantly let go. However, Shulk's aerials are great for interrupting if you use the tip of the blade. Also, you can stand just outside the range of his B, and connect with FSmash for a satisfying punish.
+ Vision: OK, this is an advantage in a lot of MUs, but I found it particularly effective against most of Roy's edgeguarding options. My opponent seemed somewhat savvy, using some clever tactics, but he seemed very reluctant to chase me off stage for any KOs. (Who can blame him with Roy's recovery?) He often used neutral or up B at the edge of the stage when I was returning, the latter of which was a huge Vision bait. I rarely had difficulty recovering from off stage. JVC also seems to be a risky but highly rewarding option when he uses Neutral B.
+ Strong air game: If you can get Roy off the edge of the stage, Shulk can have some good fun with Roy, especially in Jump mode. Smash seems a little risky here, but a single FAir can make recovery a dream for Roy. My opponent was very on top of his air dodges though, so I didn't really get to do this much in the first match. Shulk's aerials really space out Roy quite well though, especially if you can condition him into shielding or countering, leading to an easy grab.
+ Roy's ending lag: Shulk technically has worse ending lag as far as I can tell, but Roy's dodged attacks were easy to punish in those matches.

Now, in Roy's favor:
- High attack power: Roy really kept me on my toes with how strong his attacks were. I wasn't expecting that level of power going into the MU, and retaliating with Buster only exacerbates the problem unless you make sure not to whiff your attacks or hit his shield. I was already in kill range at about 115%, maybe a little more.
- Strong combo options: Getting caught in Roy's Dancing Blade is a big no-no. I lost the first match because I wasn't cautious enough around that side B. His other specials don't combo too well, but some of his tilt and smash attacks seemed to flow into each other. Also, some of his attacks are multi-hit strikes, like USmash.
- Ground speed: It wasn't a huge problem, but Roy's ground speed kept me on the defensive sometimes. Whenever I whiffed something, Roy wasted no time in rushing in for a punish. He doesn't have Marth's speed, but it felt at least equal to Vanilla Shulk. (Note: I have not examined any frame data, this could be placebo.)

Finally, I'll just say a bit on Monado Arts:
Jump should be used as normal, but I think it's kinda risky at high%s. Roy has a lot of kill options.
Speed seemed useful for the grab game, but it required conditioning to work well. My opponent was quite Counter-happy, and my initial attempts to NAir him backfired until I started mixing in grabs. The lower damage is noticeable though.
Shield... I didn't really use much. Roy usually killed me around 120% or so, well before I consider pulling out Shield. I also SD'd once with an accidental activation.
Buster: a really risky option, considering Roy's already-high power. However, it did help to get him up to kill levels fairly easily.
Smash: Also risky, but no different from the other times it's risky. I liked to use it for chasing off stage.

Overall, I lost the first match due to unfamiliarity with Roy, but the second match was more interesting. I SD'd when Roy was only at 41% on his first stock, yet I managed to come back and win by using all of Shulk's tools. The biggest help was when I activated Buster when Roy was at 50% on his second stock, and landed a long string of attacks. I punished his Neutral B with a FSmash, chased him with a UAir, UTilted him when he was coming back down, altogether getting him around 128% before Buster ran out. That was enough to launch him far enough off stage that he couldn't reach the ledge.

Still, this was only two matches. Feel free to disregard half the stuff here, I'm merely tossing a few ideas out to see if my idea is in the ballpark for those with more experience in this MU.
Not trying to junior mod or anything, but you should save those thoughts for when an actual Shulk/Roy Match Up thread gets made. This thread is only for requesting match up discussion/re-discussion really, not for actually discussing the match ups themselves.
 

kenniky

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Not trying to junior mod or anything, but you should save those thoughts for when an actual Shulk/Roy Match Up thread gets made. This thread is only for requesting match up discussion/re-discussion really, not for actually discussing the match ups themselves.
If you have something to say about a match-up, it's really annoying for you to have to wait to bring it up. While main attention should be given to the character that has been voted on, you can discuss things here too.
Just saying.
 
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WindHero

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Just saying.
Thanks, that is kinda what I was going on, but I wanted to wait before immediately replying. I certainly will comment on the main MU discussion at the given time, but I knew it would be ages before Roy came under scrutiny. That said, I really don't have much to say on Peach, as I have yet to fight anyone who truly mains as Peach.

In any case, I shall try to hold back on making a wall of text like that here again. :p
 

spiderfreak1011

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Just saying.
Fair enough then, i'll keep that in mind next time. Last time I was actively on here It was that match up discussion was dedicated solely to the thread and not much on here, but i'll remember that's not the case anymore.
 
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If the respective character thread isn't open for the said character, it's alright to post input here.

The Roy MU input is definitely appreciated
 
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WindHero

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Does it even pay to try fighting :4duckhunt: with Shulk? I find that his zoning game is really tough to get around. I usually end up getting two stocked or barely getting one stock... I mean, DH is a little predictable in that he zones then guards when you get close, opening him for grabs, but even so, I don't get enough practice fighting the mutt to do well. However, my Greninja seems to punish hard.

EDIT: So, I looked over on the DH boards to see what they think of Shulk vs. Duck Hunt... Ironically, they feel that it's a really hard match for them. :p Guess I just really wasn't playing well, and was up against a particularly good dog. Still, they talked more about what they didn't like about Shulk than about how they can counter him, so I got some ideas. :)
 
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Not sure how Duck Hunt handles in customs. He's probably harder in customs. I also checked the DH boards for Shulk info. I guess they answered your question for you. Lol
 

kenniky

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Duck Hunt gets stuff like Zigzag Shot (which is pretty lol although I don't like it), Quick Draw Aces which can be annoying, and Duck Jump Snag/Super Duck Jump which makes their recovery so much less punishable
 

Splooshi Splashy

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As a DH main, I can definitely confirm that 3122 would be the most likely deck you'll see from DH if Customs are on, followed by 3132 and then 3112. I imagine Shulk would run x313 or x333 against DH. I'm not sure which Monado Arts would be best, but I'd personally run Decisive to maximize my ability in staying close to the dog, as well as maximizing the amount of damage & knockback I deal while I'm "in". Not sure if Hyper is worth running, considering how eager most DHes would be in laming you out, and its short activation time would probably hurt Shulk's ability to stay "in". Back Slash Charge would be quite helpful in traversing the dog's arsenal, since it has super armor and sheer horizontal distance. I WOULD say Dash Vision as a way to get in on me, but Power Vision's payoff is probably too great to give up.

As for DH's 3122 deck, Zigzag Can (Neutral 3) is a wonderful anti-air that, if properly set up & mashed, can rack up 20+% in 1 go.
Duck Jump Snag (Up 2) is the dog's frame 1 (!?) "wakeup DP" that he can guard cancel into out of shield to get you off of him. However, its short recovery range will make me want walled stages (Omegas like Wii Fit Studio & Yoshi's Island (Melee), definitely) and generally easier to recover on stages (Castle Siege, Delfino, etc.) to compensate for it.
Quick Draw Aces (Down 2) is one of our most usable Gunmen, since you have no projectiles, and since you will likely be in my face for quite a while (especially with Speed & Jump Arts on), this will be one of my main tools in poking you beyond your sword (it's faster than default Clay!).

I'm probably one of the few DHes who's not too troubled by Shulk, if probably because I play an aggressive rushdown dog like Brood. While I may be doing half the work for you in terms of approaching me, the dog generally has faster attacks than you, particularly my 4 frame jab & 6 frame DTilt & NAir & UAir. I also make sure my arsenal (especially Clay & Can, since Down 2 is more of a distant poking tool) is out there before I actually close in on you, so they'll serve as cover fire to protect my approaches (and net me a free grab if I catch you shielding). While upclose, FAir (7 frames), DTilt, & fastfall NAir (6 frames) are definitely among my best melee moves, for FAir is my longest-ranged melee move that I can juggle you with multiple times in 1 go (especially after landing a full shot-up Clay beforehand), and fastfall NAir's landing lag has been reduced as of the 1.0.8 patch, making it harder for you to punish me if you don't expect it. Speaking of harder to punish, DTilt lowers my profile, allowing me to evade some of your moves while sticking out a decently ranged disjoint. That Shulk doesn't have the fastest of moves in general helps the dog out and troubles you.
 
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WindHero

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Thanks for the input. I found plenty of info about how DH mains don't like facing Shulk, it's nice to hear a bit about how better DH players handle Shulk, which is what I was after. Then again, this is the second time a Dalmatian-skinned DH (controlled by someone named Evan) has wrecked my Shulk.

So now I have faced every DLC character with Shulk except Ryu. Seeing someone playing him at last week's tournament, looks like he's decently slow enough to handle... Kinda like Bowser.
 
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Not sure about Ryu. Roy MU seems like our favor tbh or it's even. It feels like Falcon vs Shulk sans a stupid dash grab. Buster seems fine for as long as you're spacing correctly, but speed felt like the safest option ofc. Thing with buster is that it was kind of unsafe on hit against Falcon (talking about using f-air on Falcon or possibly n-air if you land the base hit) but Roy isn't as heavy as Falcon so it's definitely safe on hit. Only thing you need to worry about is Roy getting into your zone with buster art. I feel like he's lacking safe options for approaching but idk. I only played 2 sets against a Roy player
 

Grexin

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+1 :4pit:/:4darkpit: , this matchup is one I've been interested in for a while but haven't had any experience in or know much about so I'd love to see how other Shulk's handle this.
 
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I'll open up the Olimar discussion after I sleep. I was hoping for more input for Link and Diddy's re-discussion but ok :(
 

kenniky

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We've already discussed Diddy like 5 times and Link is not really that different

After Olimar I'll vote (Dark) Pit as well.
 

Linkmario00

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One vote for :4metaknight: next as I feel his punishing game can be very hard to deal with for Shulk. Also he's my secondary so I can help the discussion a bit.
 

WindHero

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Gonna vote for :4pit:/:4darkpit: here, I had some serious trouble with their multi-strike aerials and USmash earlier today, mixed with tons of grabs. I guess fast falling is your only hope of getting your feet back on the ground...

Also, I am now convinced that Shulk has a strong advantage against Ryu.:4ryu: I fought several today, and hardly had any trouble against them. However, their tilts kept cancelling my tilts, which is interesting. Superior range on Shulk's side is a huge advantage, though, and Ryu can hardly be called fast.

Now I really respect the Ness. I had no idea his FAirs chained together so well. O_O
 

TheHopefulHero

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My money's on the Pit / Dark Pit match up. This can be a really tough fight if you're not careful with either one.
 
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Just reminding everyone that I'll be considering customs too. They'll have their own MU ratio

It seems like you guys (other than erico) don't really take customs into consideration when discussing match-ups. So yeah. Not a bad thing though, but just saying
 

meleebrawler

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Also, I am now convinced that Shulk has a strong advantage against Ryu.:4ryu: I fought several today, and hardly had any trouble against them. However, their tilts kept cancelling my tilts, which is interesting. Superior range on Shulk's side is a huge advantage, though, and Ryu can hardly be called fast.
We are indeed one of the few characters to reliably outfootsie Ryu in most situations. Though it's important to know that Ryu's core gameplan is involves controlling the stage with his Shakunetsu (red) hadouken and seeing how you react to it (it wears your shield down pretty well if you let it), so Shulk should probably play somewhat aggressively in order to not let Ryu get him into positions where he can severely restrict his options.

Neither side can afford to get predictable (we can nair his fireballs and hit him too with good timing, and he's probably the only one with worse air friction than Shulk so most jumps are big commitments for him). Shulk wins neutral more often, but Ryu's punish potential is something else.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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I do want to point out Shulk's attack options for challenging Ryu's Focus Attacks, aside from grabs and simply getting out of the way (which Speed & Jump Arts can help us do):

Jab string, DAir, UAir, all Visions if he tries to attack with his FA, all Air Slashes, and all Smashes.

These options are assuming we're up-close and not at our desired further ranges, in which case we don't seem to have many multi-hit options to directly challenge Ryu's FAs with. Thankfully, our Smashes are among our most powerful ground options for doing so, but our DAir & UAir will require getting pretty close to his FA when we're caught in the air.
 

Lord Xanthan

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So I need a pocket character to deal with Sheik and Diddy. I have some trouble with Captain Falcon as well, though I have beaten some Falcons with my Shulk. Anyway, so Mario is one of my secondaries, but I read the Sheik matchup thread and they seem to have some trouble with Rosalina and Luma. So should Mario be my pocket for characters like Sheik and Diddy or should I use Rosalina and Luma?
 

meleebrawler

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I do want to point out Shulk's attack options for challenging Ryu's Focus Attacks, aside from grabs and simply getting out of the way (which Speed & Jump Arts can help us do):

Jab string, DAir, UAir, all Visions if he tries to attack with his FA, all Air Slashes, and all Smashes.

These options are assuming we're up-close and not at our desired further ranges, in which case we don't seem to have many multi-hit options to directly challenge Ryu's FAs with. Thankfully, our Smashes are among our most powerful ground options for doing so, but our DAir & UAir will require getting pretty close to his FA when we're caught in the air.
A fully charged Focus Attack is unblockable so I don't think you can counter that.
 

WindHero

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I've changed my mind on the Roy MU. It's either even or slightly in Roy's favor. Keeping Roy out feels pretty hard, and if he gets in, you'll cry as your percentage rises. Although, I'm not the best Shulk player, so this could just be me. Overall, it feels like fighting Captain Falcon, if that makes any sense.
 
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Then it should be even or Shulk's favor since Shulk goes even or beats Falcon

Difference is, Falcon is more difficult to deal with (but ultimately manageable) because his jab is ******** and so is his dash attack, and his dash grab is insane. Falcon has safe options and good mobility mix-ups. Roy doesn't have a lot of safe options on shield other than SHFF n-air and d-tilt, so he's more reliant on mobility mix-ups to get in (think of empty hops, SHFF's, foxtrots, etc). Roy's biggest gripe is his horrendously crap disadvantage which can be severely exploited by Jump art or buster art. Ironically, jump art's defense nerf is exploitable by Roy and to a lesser (but minor) extent, buster art also. Anyway, just focus on keeping him away and use your range if the Roy is trying to approach. If he tries to use n-air, dash to shield and make sure your shield doesn't interact with the tipper hitbox because SHFF tipped n-air is safe (+1 iirc)

Approaching in general regardless of which character you're using is unsafe in this game. Honestly, it's better for Roy to just wait for a grab opportunity and play patiently
 
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DominusTempest

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So I need a pocket character to deal with Sheik and Diddy. I have some trouble with Captain Falcon as well, though I have beaten some Falcons with my Shulk. Anyway, so Mario is one of my secondaries, but I read the Sheik matchup thread and they seem to have some trouble with Rosalina and Luma. So should Mario be my pocket for characters like Sheik and Diddy or should I use Rosalina and Luma?
I second this, am currently testing Roy and Ryu (and maybe Kirby) but is there a better option?
 

Linkmario00

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MK IS a good secondary for Shulk. Can handle Sheik and Fox pretty well,but ZSS is his worst MU so be aware of that
 

TheHopefulHero

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With the update changing things up, should we revisit some old match-ups to toss some theories?
 

TheHopefulHero

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Will do, but might want to wait until I have a good idea of what's been going across the spectrum.
 

kenniky

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Major character changes:

Fox jab infinite gone
Robin given a more functioning moveset

That's actually most of the huge changes in the characters we've covered.

Oh and pikachu's thunder wave infinite is gone but iirc that didn't affect us too much because lol arts
 

WindHero

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Major character changes:

Fox jab infinite gone
Robin given a more functioning moveset

That's actually most of the huge changes in the characters we've covered.

Oh and pikachu's thunder wave infinite is gone but iirc that didn't affect us too much because lol arts
Sooo, in other words, Robin could potentially be an even worse MU for us now. Glad he's my other main. B)

Also, you might want to note Greninja's buffs:
Better combo throw with D-Throw (Robin wasn't the only one!)
5 less frames of start lag on Water Shuriken's short shot. Good enough to allow two of them off a Full Hop, iirc.
Might not be huge, but that double-shuriken can throw people off if they attempt to air dodge the first.

Not to mention Donkey Kong got a hoo-hah now... curses! (UThrow to UAir guaranteed KO on Sheik at about 67%)
Why Sakurai? Why do you favor these abominable apes?? Just nerf the heck out of DK and Diddy, then throw in a crappy King K Rool to soothe the wounds. Is what I'd like to say, but I'm not really that heartless. Otherwise, I'd have Ansem instead of Minamimoto for an avatar.
 

Linkmario00

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Can we rediscuss the Robin MU? I feel it can be a pain in the ass after patch thanks to his new Dthrow, but actually BS buffs can help us here. Also it seems new MUs discussions are pretty dead. When are we going to start a new one?
 
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