AlexoftheAura
yaylatias.gif
I'm convinced that she has invincibility frames while running back to Popo <.<
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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Does anybody really know why they do that sometimes?
When Popo's in a relatively close proximity, the position of him affects her movement. You can manipulate to an extent whether Nana jumps or not.
which is why people like snake are able to get away with silly fsmashes to Nana, since ftilt has a relatively high amount of knockback after getting damage up so quickly.
Oh yeah and at least she's smarter than she was in Melee. Crazy taunting in the middle of something ftl.
When Popo's in a relatively close proximity, the position of him affects her movement. You can manipulate to an extent whether Nana jumps or not.
which is why people like snake are able to get away with silly fsmashes to Nana, since ftilt has a relatively high amount of knockback after getting damage up so quickly.
Oh yeah and at least she's smarter than she was in Melee. Crazy taunting in the middle of something ftl.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
I caught junebug syndrome and need help with the Snake MU.
If I can't read them I do stupid stuff and get FTilted.
If I can't read them I do stupid stuff and get FTilted.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Run away until he's airborne.
then gogogogogo juggle traps.
idk I'm having trouble this MU too
then gogogogogo juggle traps.
idk I'm having trouble this MU too
ShippoFoxFire
Smash Lord
Stutterstep FSmash is your best friend in the snake matchup.
If you get caught next to him and you're both in shield, gtfo ASAP, even always rolldodging back(results in a dash attack) is much better than taking a utilt or an ftilt,(grammatically 'an ftilt' is wrong, but 'a utilt' is ALSO wrong, but it's the pronunciation of the word that makes it sound right...always ticks me off but it wont sound right...)
which gives you like 20-30 random damage you could have avoided instead of the like 10 from a dash attack.
If you get caught next to him and you're both in shield, gtfo ASAP, even always rolldodging back(results in a dash attack) is much better than taking a utilt or an ftilt,(grammatically 'an ftilt' is wrong, but 'a utilt' is ALSO wrong, but it's the pronunciation of the word that makes it sound right...always ticks me off but it wont sound right...)
which gives you like 20-30 random damage you could have avoided instead of the like 10 from a dash attack.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
As everyone's noticed, I've been kinda busy lately, and I've been wanting to look at other projects, and since I'm going to be gone for a week or two, I'm going to hand this thread off to someone by the end of the week.
Tony T
Smash Ace
I have a feeling I know who possibly three people I can think of lol. I wont say until you do so Phi1ny3.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
because our board can't agree on MU ratios.
Steam
Smash Hero
snake boards say 55-45 too and IDK why <_>
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
I think its because some days Snakes just get juggled hard.
and then some days Snake just... *****.
due to this the difficulty can fluctuate if you're not terriiiiiiiiibly consistent.
He can be a hot or cold character sometimes.
Nevertheless, Snakes are just going to continue to get harder.
and then some days Snake just... *****.
due to this the difficulty can fluctuate if you're not terriiiiiiiiibly consistent.
He can be a hot or cold character sometimes.
Nevertheless, Snakes are just going to continue to get harder.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Because it's changing.
The MU chart, as you've noticed, is a little dated.
A lot thought it was 45:55 when we rediscussed this the first time. Most of these ratios, you must understand, came from a "mode" tally, merely finding the most common ratio and placing it on. We've changed to an average (something MTI is working on right now). My argument for the longest time was what I saw that went on with TX Lucarios against Razer, I always noticed they did really well first stock, but let momentum get in the way which would enable Razer to win (since snake is very momentum/clutch material) but then we see Trela 2-0 Razer, and I noticed the impliments he used in that match were far different than what he usually does, so I'm hopeful, I've changed to 40:60 awhile ago lol, so I'm hoping that if Trela becomes more consistent in that MU that I'm wrong.
RT
Smash Hero
There are some interesting things that Trela did...I took notes. Granted, I think it's still in Snake's favor and Trela still hates that matchup, lol. I will say this dtilt is very interesting in the matchup...
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I started telling trela to experiment with Dtilt.
Needless to say he and Lee Martin have been using it pretty well.
Including that lol dtilt lock -> fsmash Lee did against Esam in doubles.
Needless to say he and Lee Martin have been using it pretty well.
Including that lol dtilt lock -> fsmash Lee did against Esam in doubles.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
Hey guys, since we're all thinking about Snake right now, can we make him like our official discussion?
After deep thought and meditation I think we aren't playing the Snake MU right. When we get the chance we do not always throw him offstage and force him to Cypher. That way we could frame trap him into landing into an AS/FSmash/FTilt/returned nades.
A lot of players are starting to play the "trap" style of Snake more and that's making it difficult to get inside and land some half-decent strings.
Hell, I think we're all in agreement now that MK is easier than Snake. With the exception of them taking us to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.
Snakes are likely to B-reverse nades in the air because its 95% of the time a better option than air dodging.
We have a true frame advantage against his UTilt and Ftilt2 (if he decides to use both) if we roll behind him. We can Jab or Grab him most reliably out of his UTilt, but we have a few more options out of his FTilt2.
His moves are a lot faster than ours in CQC.
List of things we should learn:
1. Exact timing when nades blow up. (Go to training mode and practice perfect shielding or Air Walking them.) Also, if you know the exact time they blow up you could throw an AS through an explosion at Snake.
2. Not get grabbed out of his Grenade cancel. (You could roll behind him for shenanigans, but I don't know the frame advantages/disadvantages for that.)
3. "When in doubt aim for the head (or feet)." People are keen on perfect shielding when something is aimed at the body, but chances are they aren't going to perfectly shield something that is aimed at the head or feet.
4. Doesn't hurt to learn glidetossing for more approach/spacing options.
5. Be aware when AS clings (lower than 12%) with Grenades.
6. lulz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7rMy3-c9s Don't get pressured in CQC.
The more pressure he can apply to us with his nades the easier time he has approaching us.
After deep thought and meditation I think we aren't playing the Snake MU right. When we get the chance we do not always throw him offstage and force him to Cypher. That way we could frame trap him into landing into an AS/FSmash/FTilt/returned nades.
A lot of players are starting to play the "trap" style of Snake more and that's making it difficult to get inside and land some half-decent strings.
Hell, I think we're all in agreement now that MK is easier than Snake. With the exception of them taking us to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.
Snakes are likely to B-reverse nades in the air because its 95% of the time a better option than air dodging.
We have a true frame advantage against his UTilt and Ftilt2 (if he decides to use both) if we roll behind him. We can Jab or Grab him most reliably out of his UTilt, but we have a few more options out of his FTilt2.
His moves are a lot faster than ours in CQC.
List of things we should learn:
1. Exact timing when nades blow up. (Go to training mode and practice perfect shielding or Air Walking them.) Also, if you know the exact time they blow up you could throw an AS through an explosion at Snake.
2. Not get grabbed out of his Grenade cancel. (You could roll behind him for shenanigans, but I don't know the frame advantages/disadvantages for that.)
3. "When in doubt aim for the head (or feet)." People are keen on perfect shielding when something is aimed at the body, but chances are they aren't going to perfectly shield something that is aimed at the head or feet.
4. Doesn't hurt to learn glidetossing for more approach/spacing options.
5. Be aware when AS clings (lower than 12%) with Grenades.
6. lulz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7rMy3-c9s Don't get pressured in CQC.
The more pressure he can apply to us with his nades the easier time he has approaching us.
ShippoFoxFire
Smash Lord
Also always keep an eye on every explosive he has, don't get that "Now!" [HOLY **** AM I STANDING ON A C4!?]
When 2 nades have been thrown, you can go in a little closer, but once nade 1 blows up get out of there, this matchup is VERY campy.
When 2 nades have been thrown, you can go in a little closer, but once nade 1 blows up get out of there, this matchup is VERY campy.
Tony T
Smash Ace
True on that Infinity. Also I want to add if you're at a high percentage dont Air dodge Snakes nades when he throws them up at you because sometimes you end up catching it when you dodge and blows up in your face before you realize it best option when he does that would be to use the b-reversal to move away from the nades so it can alter your trajectory with little problems. It happened to LucarioOwl in PolyBrawl 4 he airdodged the granade and ended up killing him before he realized he was holding it when it was thrown at him.
True on that Shippo. That happened to me at PolyBrawl 4 against Allied. I was perfectshielding his u-tilts and nades but what killed me was that C4 it can catch you off guard when you get distracted by nades. Possible escape senario is to use DT when he says now just in case or stay in the air when he uses the C4 so if it does blow you wont get hit by it.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
When I play as Snake, the one thing that catches people offguard is "grenade countering". People really need to learn how to pluck snake and space properly to avoid blowing up the grenades (or better yet, just throw them lol).
The other is how quickly "Now!" ends. Lots of people forget how fast snake can throw out a bair/uair while he does it in the air thinking he has to recover from the lag of detonating c4.
So glad we have best rolls and long air time, helps in avoiding some grenade pressure.
You gotta also read FF AD. Probably one of his best options in the air next to b-reversing. The more you practice against snakes, the more you see differences in habitual tendencies. Snake imo is really player-oriented (both ways, actually) since he can be very deadly if he knows how you play, but conversely if you know his patterns with his strong but few tools, it helps you as well.
The other is how quickly "Now!" ends. Lots of people forget how fast snake can throw out a bair/uair while he does it in the air thinking he has to recover from the lag of detonating c4.
So glad we have best rolls and long air time, helps in avoiding some grenade pressure.
You gotta also read FF AD. Probably one of his best options in the air next to b-reversing. The more you practice against snakes, the more you see differences in habitual tendencies. Snake imo is really player-oriented (both ways, actually) since he can be very deadly if he knows how you play, but conversely if you know his patterns with his strong but few tools, it helps you as well.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
I'm gonna say this again, if a snake has a grenade in hand, start approaching him, he becomes extremely open.
Steam
Smash Hero
to avoid accidentally catching a grenade thrown up with AD couldn't you just insta throw it down? Insta throwing is a total must in this MU in many situations =/
Tony T
Smash Ace
That would require perfect timing and no error which is very hard to pull off.
Steam
Smash Hero
instathrowing is just as hard as glide tossing =/ and the timing to catch it isn't very hard
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
stuff I learned today in friendlies/MMs at the end:
Snake is vulnerable during grenade pull, not for long but the window is there if you read it, esp in the air.
if your fsmash is saved, its reallllllly **** for killing snake, easier to hit then AS imo but you don't get predictable.
predict when snakes wants to FF out of cypher onto the ledge, its not hard to get snake into this position.
We need to be punishing UpB lag more wtf.
and
Sometimes when you DI random nairs you'll go at a 80 degree angle behind snake and die hella early.
</3 ****.
also I'm hella ****ing rusty in the pika MU, Air dodging immediately out of upsmash instead of fairing, not DIng dsmash all the time. and getting hit by random QUACK NAIRS.
looool I'll re-learn it though.
and Phil, honestly, I don't think grenade countering is a big deal for us really, No one else in this game gets a benefit from getting damage, I'm not saying ALWAYS blow up the grenade, but maybe if you're like in the right %s and you know you can follow his DI..... its not that bad to blow up the nade snake is holding and continue the string.
Snake is vulnerable during grenade pull, not for long but the window is there if you read it, esp in the air.
if your fsmash is saved, its reallllllly **** for killing snake, easier to hit then AS imo but you don't get predictable.
predict when snakes wants to FF out of cypher onto the ledge, its not hard to get snake into this position.
We need to be punishing UpB lag more wtf.
and
Sometimes when you DI random nairs you'll go at a 80 degree angle behind snake and die hella early.
</3 ****.
also I'm hella ****ing rusty in the pika MU, Air dodging immediately out of upsmash instead of fairing, not DIng dsmash all the time. and getting hit by random QUACK NAIRS.
looool I'll re-learn it though.
and Phil, honestly, I don't think grenade countering is a big deal for us really, No one else in this game gets a benefit from getting damage, I'm not saying ALWAYS blow up the grenade, but maybe if you're like in the right %s and you know you can follow his DI..... its not that bad to blow up the nade snake is holding and continue the string.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
Let's do a little math here. Assuming everything is perfect and we buffer frames perfectly.
Alright, considering it takes 38 frames for Snake to UTilt and subtract from that our 27 frames to roll. Okay 11 frames, and 5 to grab/Jab, that's tight.
But wait! We actually have a couple more frames to Jab or Grab.
Let's just say Snake immediately spotdodges as we roll behind him.
If we attempt a grab... we have an additional frame to grab him, but if we saw him do that we could just Jab him, during his ending lag for his spotdodge, right?
If Snake does not spotdodge we have at least 4 additional frames to grab him because it takes at least 1 frame to turn around and 3 frames to use his Jab. His FTilt takes 4 frames to startup too.
If he does not spotdodge we have 9 frames to grab him assuming he's frame perfect.
If he does spotdodge we have 6 frames to grab him due to his spotdodge having invincibility starting on frame 2. You could just Jab if he does spotdodge though.
So... although small our frame advantage is humanly possible at least.
Snake's UTilt
Base Damage: - 13 for strong hitboxes, 12 for weak hitboxes.
Base Knockback – 37 for strong hitboxes, 2D for soft hitboxes
Knockback gain – All 5F
Weight Knockback – All 0
Hitbox comes out at frame - 6
First IASA Frame – N/A
Direction – 95 for strong hitboxes, 84 for soft hitboxes
Total frames - 38
Miscellaneous – This has a lot of hitboxes.(6) No wonder it has a lot of range.
Hitbox duration – 8 for strong hitboxes, 6 for soft hitboxes
Landing Lag -
Tripping rate(If any) – 0%
Hitlag multiplier – x1
SDI potential – x1
Snake's Spotdodge
Lucario's Roll
Alright, considering it takes 38 frames for Snake to UTilt and subtract from that our 27 frames to roll. Okay 11 frames, and 5 to grab/Jab, that's tight.
But wait! We actually have a couple more frames to Jab or Grab.
Let's just say Snake immediately spotdodges as we roll behind him.
If we attempt a grab... we have an additional frame to grab him, but if we saw him do that we could just Jab him, during his ending lag for his spotdodge, right?
If Snake does not spotdodge we have at least 4 additional frames to grab him because it takes at least 1 frame to turn around and 3 frames to use his Jab. His FTilt takes 4 frames to startup too.
If he does not spotdodge we have 9 frames to grab him assuming he's frame perfect.
If he does spotdodge we have 6 frames to grab him due to his spotdodge having invincibility starting on frame 2. You could just Jab if he does spotdodge though.
So... although small our frame advantage is humanly possible at least.
Snake's UTilt
Base Damage: - 13 for strong hitboxes, 12 for weak hitboxes.
Base Knockback – 37 for strong hitboxes, 2D for soft hitboxes
Knockback gain – All 5F
Weight Knockback – All 0
Hitbox comes out at frame - 6
First IASA Frame – N/A
Direction – 95 for strong hitboxes, 84 for soft hitboxes
Total frames - 38
Miscellaneous – This has a lot of hitboxes.(6) No wonder it has a lot of range.
Hitbox duration – 8 for strong hitboxes, 6 for soft hitboxes
Landing Lag -
Tripping rate(If any) – 0%
Hitlag multiplier – x1
SDI potential – x1
Snake's Spotdodge
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7005/spotdodge.gif
Invincibility Frames begin at frame 2
Duration – 19
Total Frames – 26
Invincibility Frames begin at frame 2
Duration – 19
Total Frames – 26
Lucario's Roll
Invulnerable on Frame: 4
Vulnerable on Frame: 19
Complete on Frame: 27
Vulnerable on Frame: 19
Complete on Frame: 27
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Or you could just you know.
Shield the uptilt.
its much safer and doesn't run the risk if you getting read to utilt. [at least directly]
If you're going to roll behind snake roll just because you want to crossover or something, its kinda risky considering we can eat a hit if we mistime it [it's happened to me before <<]
Shield the uptilt.
its much safer and doesn't run the risk if you getting read to utilt. [at least directly]
If you're going to roll behind snake roll just because you want to crossover or something, its kinda risky considering we can eat a hit if we mistime it [it's happened to me before <<]
junebug
Smash Journeyman
solid snake is everything, he's all you ever wanted.
you can win a set now even if you never won it.
clashes he always wins, trades he ain't never gonna.
you want him forever, any counterpick he'll roof you on it.
A! press it tilting side or up.
then tilt down and press R like you don't give a ***.
i know you wait for it. but you're out of luck.
i can do the same thing every single time.
solid snake da bes.
solid snake da bes.
solid snake da bes.
now lucarios be mad.
junebug he be mad.
but trela he ain't mad.
everyone is mad.
i'm bored.
you can win a set now even if you never won it.
clashes he always wins, trades he ain't never gonna.
you want him forever, any counterpick he'll roof you on it.
A! press it tilting side or up.
then tilt down and press R like you don't give a ***.
i know you wait for it. but you're out of luck.
i can do the same thing every single time.
solid snake da bes.
solid snake da bes.
solid snake da bes.
now lucarios be mad.
junebug he be mad.
but trela he ain't mad.
everyone is mad.
i'm bored.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Amaz ing.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Uh, so.... you're talking about a scenario where you do a roll behind Snake on the exact frame Snake throws out an utilt, I guess.
Do you somehow not realize that's purely prediction and the risk/reward on getting predicted instead is ridiculously stacked against you?
Or hell, if you have the magical ability to know when Snake is going to utilt and instantly act, why wouldn't you just powershield instead?
D. Disciple
Smash Master
powershield it, ftilt to utilt will stop it. Just saying
Tony T
Smash Ace
Powershielding does work I tried that against snakes u-tilt and for f-tilt powershield sidestep then grab that helps.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Anyone want in on this offer?
Tony T
Smash Ace
Awesome lol.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
finally got a connection lol.
I'll see if I can work some re-ownership magic.
I'll see if I can work some re-ownership magic.
Acton
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys!
I just wanted to introduce myself, my name is Acton and I'm a falco main.
Lucario is one of the harder MU's for me personally and I'm trying to step it up. So I'm looking for any Lucario mains that want to play friendlies on wifi on a regular basis. Unfortunately I work full time so I'm usually on from 12am-4am est, plus the weekends.
I'm also looking for general tips on the Lucario Falco mu, like how I should approach this MU, whether or not Lucario uses any gimmicks to beat Falco etc.
My aim is xXAccalonXx, feel free to hit me up between 12am-4am est or leave a message for me on aim. I'm on the whole weekend!
Thanks!
I just wanted to introduce myself, my name is Acton and I'm a falco main.
Lucario is one of the harder MU's for me personally and I'm trying to step it up. So I'm looking for any Lucario mains that want to play friendlies on wifi on a regular basis. Unfortunately I work full time so I'm usually on from 12am-4am est, plus the weekends.
I'm also looking for general tips on the Lucario Falco mu, like how I should approach this MU, whether or not Lucario uses any gimmicks to beat Falco etc.
My aim is xXAccalonXx, feel free to hit me up between 12am-4am est or leave a message for me on aim. I'm on the whole weekend!
Thanks!
Tony T
Smash Ace
Well If I'm on I'll see if I can help you a bit Acton.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
First off thanks Phil for handing this over.
Okay guys, here's what we are gonna do.
Second of all, for each match-up we are going to discuss I'd like for people to vote on which character we want to discuss. We will officially discuss one or two of the top voted on. Try to keep your votes to no more than five characters each time.
One of us will poke that character board (if they allow it) to get their input on that MU.
We'll discuss stages, strategies, and all that good stuff that we're used to.
This time though we're going to be a bit more precise and for each discussion we will have Aura Sphere priority data, so you know when you beat a silly move (like G&W's BAir). Keep in mind that we also gain priority based on how much damage we have and our body box will outprioritize that move.
For example do you know when we beat an uncharged fresh Falco USmash with our FSmash?
Remember, the 8% rule is your friend.
I also ask to whomever does that particular export to have the AS data in it as well.
Anyways, who should we discuss now?
I vote:
Snake
@Acton:
Camp as hard as you can until Luc gets within range that he can do something, use Jabs as a GTFO move and wisely. Retreating lasers are also ARGH. You can do 3 walking chaingrabs from 0%.
Don't take us to Japes because we live forever there. Ban Brinstar because that stage makes it difficult to pew pew.
Okay guys, here's what we are gonna do.
Second of all, for each match-up we are going to discuss I'd like for people to vote on which character we want to discuss. We will officially discuss one or two of the top voted on. Try to keep your votes to no more than five characters each time.
One of us will poke that character board (if they allow it) to get their input on that MU.
We'll discuss stages, strategies, and all that good stuff that we're used to.
This time though we're going to be a bit more precise and for each discussion we will have Aura Sphere priority data, so you know when you beat a silly move (like G&W's BAir). Keep in mind that we also gain priority based on how much damage we have and our body box will outprioritize that move.
For example do you know when we beat an uncharged fresh Falco USmash with our FSmash?
165% same stock, fresh.
I also ask to whomever does that particular export to have the AS data in it as well.
Anyways, who should we discuss now?
I vote:
Snake
@Acton:
Camp as hard as you can until Luc gets within range that he can do something, use Jabs as a GTFO move and wisely. Retreating lasers are also ARGH. You can do 3 walking chaingrabs from 0%.
Don't take us to Japes because we live forever there. Ban Brinstar because that stage makes it difficult to pew pew.
ShippoFoxFire
Smash Lord
Priority to rediscuss, the Shippo List
1. Snake
2. Marth
3. Toon Link
4. Diddy Kong
5. Fox
/discuss
SNAKE IS OUR HARDEST MATCHUP IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Snake
2. Marth
3. Toon Link
4. Diddy Kong
5. Fox
/discuss
SNAKE IS OUR HARDEST MATCHUP IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
"We will officially discuss one or two of the top voted on. Try to keep your votes to no more than five characters each time."
Otherwise we get too many people to talk about and it gets too tedious >.>
Otherwise we get too many people to talk about and it gets too tedious >.>