SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Real life sucks. And most people are bad at this game. Doesn't mean people can't improve.

The words of someone who could never cut it when he had to actually play the game in real life, despite all his big talk.

As someone who's actually played this matchup at a higher level then you'd ever be able to, let me say that your mass theorycrafting does not convince me in the slightest that G&W solidly beats Lucario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Funny Stauffy, I did actually beat ViceGrip in tournament, and I don't think anyone disagrees with him being amazing. A lot of people were telling me after playing me that they wished I actually entered Brawl at WGF (I entered Melee for personal reasons). I could argue that I didn't really find your Lucario that impressive from playing you at WGF, but it was late night friendlies, so w/e.

or you could DI the Dtilt down and tech the stage.

Being forced to tech is still a bad position to be in.

or not techroll all the time because GW has to buffer that for it to work and GW doesn't get anything major guranteed if luc doesn't techroll.

Wait what? The point is it covers TECHROLL, tech in place, and no tech as long as he's picking the right side. G&W is also able to cover no tech with Dash attack and F-tilt. If you tech in place or techroll away, he can N-air it. His options after knocking Lucario down are seriously good, especially since Lucario's option of techroll is much weaker than most.

and LMAO Lucario has a worse recovery than snake. Snake wishes he had our recovery.

Snake's recovery moves faster and gets more distance. Lucario in comparison is easier for G&W to edgeguard especially when he has to recover low.

GW doesn't really outdo luc in the air. He outspaces us in the air. all of GWs stuff is really laggy in some fashion and generally bad at covering him

I don't get what you're saying. I don't see why Lucario wants to consider going air to air against G&W. G&W outspaces him in the air and generally does more damage. At least on the ground Lucario has some funny stuff that has more range than G&W's stuff.

 

[Steam]

I was meant once lucario can get in on GW in the air. Lucario also has some pretty janky hitboxes and GW has some pretty gnarly blindspots.

Snake would get massacred when recovering low unless fair does less than 8% for some reason... I don't think it does lol.

Lucario at least still has options not called upB.

and again you can just DI the Dtilt down and tech the stage. so it's only at all viable at the ledge in which case lucario could just land on the other side and eat a free DA, Ftilt or I guess another Dtilt. better than being put offstage so low.

 

[Browny]

Lol... Typical.

So we are supposed to be afraid of some tech chase which only occurs if g&w manages to grab us and guesses right. Horrible grab range + lucarios evasiveness and range. Yeah im not worried.

And steam so what if other chars find little tricks, at the end of the day lucario is STILL getting consistent placings that most of the cast cant dream of, because he is fundamentally a good character, always has been and always will coz he doesnt thrive off the enemy not knowing the match up, hence consistent placings from a wide variety of people for almost 3 years now. He always has an answer/option.

 

[Steam]

now that I think of it... Lucario is really good while grounded against GW lol

Air to ground GW doesn't do well at all lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was meant once lucario can get in on GW in the air. Lucario also has some pretty janky hitboxes and GW has some pretty gnarly blindspots.

I'm not denying Lucario has a good followup game. When it comes to the tools available for controlling the stage though, G&W controls the air better.

Snake would get massacred when recovering low unless fair does less than 8% for some reason... I don't think it does lol.

Weak F-air does 6% mind you (players screw up, it's happened before), but Snake does have the option of C4 recovery to extend his low recovery and avoid getting killed by G&W's F-air. Lucario kinda...needs the option to recover high in the first place to leave his options open.

Lucario at least still has options not called upB.

I hope you aren't just talking about wallclinging, which G&W does have the tools to prevent and punish fairly well. I guess you can throw out more random aerials, maybe a random Aura Sphere, but it's not really going to stop G&W from edgeguarding effectively.

and again you can just DI the Dtilt down and tech the stage. so it's only at all viable at the ledge in which case lucario could just land on the other side and eat a free DA, Ftilt or I guess another Dtilt. better than being put offstage so low.

DA puts you back behind G&W in a position where it's easy for him to juggle. F-tilt...yeah it's mediocre for the most part, but he does have that option for high percent kills. And he has the option of techchasing into F-air on every techroll in the game.

now that I think of it... Lucario is really good while grounded against GW lol

Air to ground GW doesn't do well at all lol.

I was kinda trying to keep the discussion in that area. The best part about Lucario is he's frustrating to approach in general because his walls are REALLY GOOD. Most of the matchup is going to take place on the ground because of this, since the best response to walling is shielding and playing a good ground game.

Lol... Typical.

So we are supposed to be afraid of some tech chase which only occurs if g&w manages to grab us and guesses right. Horrible grab range + lucarios evasiveness and range. Yeah im not worried.

Lucario's Grab and Jab are worse than G&W's. Yes Forward Roll is dumb, but it can be covered safely. And G&W's options for techchasing Lucario are REALLY good.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Funny Stauffy, I did actually beat ViceGrip in tournament, and I don't think anyone disagrees with him being amazing. A lot of people were telling me after playing me that they wished I actually entered Brawl at WGF (I entered Melee for personal reasons). I could argue that I didn't really find your Lucario that impressive from playing you at WGF, but it was late night friendlies, so w/e.

You wouldn't know an impressive Lucario if you saw one anyway.
Suffice to say even in my retirement it's plenty more impressive than someone who has beating an unranked Ness player who's moved over to Melee as his greatest accomplishment.



Not that I don't have love for Vice or anything.

 

[Steam]

well Dtilt apparently covers tech roll in either direction sooo.

and you say that GWs will screw up and get weak fair on a sitting duck snake. But you don't say that GWs will mess up landing fairs on a much more mobile lucario that has other options.

no I'm not talking about wallclinging... wall clinging is pretty terrible. you've obviously never played a good lucario before :I Sure you can say his recovery is terrible in theory. But in practice only a few characters can consistantly abuse it. I mean once lucario is offstage in the first place it's not like GW gets a free fair...

edit: and even if you're an amazing player... you don't main GW or Lucario... and it's apparent you don't play this matchup

 

[A2ZOMG]

and you say that GWs will screw up and get weak fair on a sitting duck snake. But you don't say that GWs will mess up landing fairs on a much more mobile lucario that has other options.

EDIT: Had to read that twice, nvm.

I don't know exactly what you're getting at. What situations are you expecting G&W to get punished for whiffing F-air?

no I'm not talking about wallclinging... wall clinging is pretty terrible. you've obviously never played a good lucario before :I Sure you can say his recovery is terrible in theory. But in practice only a few characters can consistantly abuse it. I mean once lucario is offstage in the first place it's not like GW gets a free fair...

Unless he's recovering low, which he will be at higher percents if he gets hit by D-tilt. You can say it's avoidable after D-throw, but if a threat has to be avoided, it only adds to G&W's conditioning strategies.

edit: and even if you're an amazing player... you don't main GW or Lucario... and it's apparent you don't play this matchup

I main G&W in Brawl. The Mario icon is for Melee.

 

[Steam]

I was talking about landing fair as in landing the move on the opponent. not landing with it

because to be able to get lucario with a ledgehop fair out of any Dtilt he has to find a way to waste lucario's Double jump.

he won't always be recovering low if he can DI down and tech the stage....

this is a lot more situational than you realize. and even when it works GW still has a lot more **** to do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was talking about landing fair as in landing the move on the opponent. not landing with it

Yeah noticed at the last minute.

because to be able to get lucario with a ledgehop fair out of any Dtilt he has to find a way to waste lucario's Double jump.

Dunno what you're getting at. If G&W really wants to, Lucario is one of few characters where gimping him out of low recovery with weak F-air is a viable option.

he won't always be recovering low if he can DI down and tech the stage....

I'm actually wondering if you're even allowed to tech D-tilt if you had teched earlier. Furthermore you do have to factor that DIing down can be pretty silly against some of G&W's other options on techchase. Like you obviously don't want to DI his F-air or F-tilt downwards at higher percents.

this is a lot more situational than you realize. and even when it works GW still has a lot more **** to do.

The point remains, G&W's options on D-throw are much better on Lucario than people realize, and he has a lot of options that are relatively safe after D-throw that can get really good reward, not limited to options that can kill or set up kills that can cover any getup option.

Also, it probably never needed to be mentioned, but of course you want to be extra careful if G&W is going for Oil Panic, because given those conditions D-throw is a true 50/50 setup into a guaranteed KO in this matchup.

 

[Steam]

I'm talking offstage fair. It's harder to land fair offstage on Lucario than snake...

outright gimping lucario with a move like weak fair is something extremely rare and is something that you'll find extremely difficult to do because luc has to be in ultraspecific spots that a smart one won't let himself be in :/

Fair is slowish on startup. So you'll be able to stop DIing down on reaction to GW's jump. Plus Dtilt just hits eariler than Fair.

But let me know when you start ****** lucarios with this. It's not like this hasn't been done to me all the time in the past to know how to deal with it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You know if you didn't assert yourself to thinking you know better than everyone else people would try to listen to you more.

Let's see...oh yeah G&W vs Link every G&W and Link said you were wrong and you wouldn't listen. Oh yeah and G&W is gonna live til 180% because Link's KO power is worse than Sonic's, according to you.

Link vs Bowser, you claimed Link had an amazing 65:35/70:30 over Bowser, which every single Bowser and Link main include Vex, Zigsta, and Kirin said you were wrong. You also seem to think Ganon is better than Bowser...hmmm isn't that interesting to note, when even Verm says your wrong and that Ganon is the worst in the game.

TL wrecks Snake.

Lucario is super easy for Ganon, which Fonz said you were wrong about.

~

This is why people have a huge issue with you. You say things that people who have experienced it, played it countless times, main the characters you don't. Theorycraft is one thing, but even then there are somethings you need to experience hands on to get even an idea of what you need to do.

And when you come in, you assert your own opinion so much that you know better than even top players, no one wants to listen to you at that point. I've learned that I don't know everything and admit I very well am wrong about aspects of Lucario and Link, Fox vs Lucario I admit I could be wrong and Lucario might lose the MU even if I think it's even atm.

You need to learn that theory doesn't always work, it needs to be proven in practice, your not always right and you don't know better than everyone all the time.

~

Lucario can also punish all of G&W's aerials from the ground, and I'm not even talking about Fsmash with this. He has even other things he could do to punish them like Aura sphere, Ftilt, and other things.

I trust Vinnie about this when he came to Lucario skype to talk about it for the BBR chart,

Vinnie helped out with this info in the chat we had tonight. The match-up seems a lot about baiting each other to do certain actions and punishing it. Shutter step Fsmash beats out G&W's aerial approaches. However if he goes grounded or above Lucario he can to punish it, not sure about grounded completely. G&W can juggle Lucario pretty well, dair is not a universal answer in this match-up, G&W can wait to bait and punish it from the sides or just outright beat it with UpB if he times it right. G&W can tech chase Lucario on many fronts, such as Dthrow, teching landings, etc.

Lucario's Aura Sphere is good when Mr. G&W isn't off stage, offstage may seem like a good idea but really G&W has nothing to fear because Lucario can't follow up on it outside of maybe a fair. On stage is a different story, it's a good punishment tool that can bypass many of his moves, even if G&W buckets it, because of the after lag it can mean a free hit from Lucario afterwards. Lucario is looking to get hits in by staying on the ground more than going into the air.

They both can kill each other pretty well, Mr. G&W is better in the air, Lucario is better on the ground. A lot of it seems about baits and reads.

Going with a 0.

That's all I can say really.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm talking offstage fair. It's harder to land fair offstage on Lucario than snake...

Not seeing it. Snake's recovery actually can go fast and high enough to be difficult to reach, and C4 is an option that Snake has to work around most edgeguards. Lucario pretty much is stuck at the height he's sent at and can't really go where he pleases if he's sent out low.

outright gimping lucario with a move like weak fair is something extremely rare and is something that you'll find extremely difficult to do because luc has to be in ultraspecific spots that a smart one won't let himself be in :/

Maybe. The fact weak F-air also sets up into another F-air is really good as well, given how many options G&W can cover in the whole process.

Fair is slowish on startup. So you'll be able to stop DIing down on reaction to GW's jump. Plus Dtilt just hits eariler than Fair.

I appreciate someone actually knows how to use their head, because THESE are the exact kind of responses I look for. You could probably Option Select your DI if your timing and execution is good and just react to the D-throw itself.

But let me know when you start ****** lucarios with this. It's not like this hasn't been done to me all the time in the past to know how to deal with it.

I expect both sides to know their options in a matchup. Your input was good.

 

[Steam]

Lucario can actually afford to use DJ air dodge for example and not end up in a really bad position. or even dair stall once or twice. Snake can really do nothing but upB.

though overall, I think it's something that's notable but in the end not matchup breaking due to how many ways lucario can escape. even the offstage gimp isn't really guranteed

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've seen Snake players double jump airdodge (with how much success is debatable, but it is an option). And Snake still has C4, which can let him recover against essentially anything if he's willing to self inflict 14% to avoid getting killed by something else. But point taken that Lucario can use that one option more freely.

D-throw is significant enough in this matchup that it does mean G&W has more ways to pressure and setup into kills in this matchup. Like, unless the G&W just plain doesn't know how to stop Lucario's limited approach and offensive options, Lucario's mainly going to be just waiting for G&W (or basically anyone) to bite into ridiculous aura powered walls when he needs a kill. Every character is EVENTUALLY going to get in on Lucario. It's just going to happen, even if it takes some careful reads, which is why G&W's ability to capitalize on said reads are especially important.

 

[D. Disciple]

I think G&W beats Lucario more solidly than anyone realizes at the moment. If you read my data on G&W's D-throw...

I stopped reading there.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Look I've played the DThrow theory game for quite some time now.

That said G&W has no reliable clear cut way to punish and pressure out of his DThrow on Lucario, we can:

Get up attack
Tech in place
Tech Roll
Roll

The bottom two are obviously the generally two safest choices by default.

If he reads our tech roll he can Smash us, but with mixups he's probably not always going to hit us.

Of course we could always just roll away and reset the situation.

 

[Steam]

you should try reading his first post myth :/

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh em gee, salt is sewn everywhere in this thread lol.

Umm, G&W on paper does well b/c of really good stats in terms of good juggling and edgeguarding (although aside from fair I don't see him gimping Lucario), and air game.

Lucario thrives on G&W's exploitable difficulty to land a kill move outside of fair, and G&W is going to do all those things to do to get Lucario offstage in a bad angle. It gets more risky to get those in because of the damage output a punish from lucario does at later percents.

Lucario is bad theorycraft material b/c he's imo a punisher primarily, and those chars in theorycraft land are always bad b/c the opponent always magically plays "perfectly". Problem is that most options have cons, and depending on the MU lucario punishes pretty heavily on those, and while his options may not be the best, a lot of them are straight forward in what they're able to punish or not. Fsmash for example covers pretty much every option the opponent has in the air, and it's fairly safe on the ground when you're not predictable with it.

Lucario crunches G&W in a similar way that he does to marth, you have to cover his zoning.

G&W has better CPs, I'd give G&W the nudge on that alone.

Lucario outlives G&W significantly in the MU unless he screws up.

G&W dthrow happens but even with some of Lucario's relatively meh options he's still fairly difficult to read, also grab in general is hard to land on a lucario that knows the MU. If he's shield sitting he has the wrong idea for the most part.

Steam is right, a grounded lucario is a better lucario for the MU.

Valdens taught me a lot about this MU when he played, It's fairly even imo.

A2Z, I beg to differ on G&W's jab being better than Luc's aside from maybe speed. I also think one should take into consideration how infrequent Lucario ends up recovering in a bad spot, Lucario's ability to Momentum cancel well and be extremely floaty (lol practically one of the few good things about that trait) allows him to stay up high almost all the time against chars not named MK and Marth, and he has all the tools snake has for mixing up when being high and then some. The nice thing about Lucario's recovery is that Lucario can still use his second jump with careful management to help get across and onstage, unlike snake who has to use it every time to recover high. Lucario also has b-reversals like snake, capable aerials (not amazing, but quick and decent range so that the opponent has to think more about them instead of just waiting for the AD like you often do against snake), and Lucario has dair stall to give him a little more leeway and mixup power while high, which works great for waiting for the opponent to either rush the luc for edgeguarding, or to wait until the opponent doesn't have as many options when playing the defensive edgeguard type. Snake's height from recovery is good but it often gets invalidated by smart opponents that frame trap well at top play, because what usually matters is when he needs to return to the ground. The only thing that lucario doesn't have that snake does to help is FF airdodge.

I hope that makes sense lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh wow did I drop the ball on this one.

So who would people like to talk about next?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Haven't been following this as much as I should.
How about Peach?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Peach is easy.

When you outprioritize her with AS... Camp Camp Camp.

 

[culexus・wau]

She's pretty annoying once she forces to you to block though

sadface

which is why you never let it happen.

BLUE BALLS BLUE BALLS BLUE BALLS



not that I'm credible when it comes to this match-up.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Mindlessly running at her is suicide though. Gotta play pretty evasive and don't let her pressure your shield too much. Especially at kill %s.

Her FAir shouldn't kill you until like 140%+ and in the middle of neutrals don't expect to die until 150%ish if you DI well.

Challenging her UAir with our DAir is risky. Her UTilt has surprising range (kinda like Zelda's USmash). So, don't think you can DAir mindlessly all day long.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Her DAir also has ******** range.

 

[culexus・wau]

its not that ********

its that that it combined with floating [being able to stay at an exact vertical height] that makes it ******** imo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Watch her spacing you can read what she will do based on how she is moving around with float or positioned vertically, also force her to air dodge, frame traps are lol.

Fair is what will kill us most of the time, imo, assuming she keeps it unstaled.

Aura Sphere is god when you want to force her to land or do something about it. Turnips have specific %'s where you can just beat them out, 42% is the base for her normal ones.

Well Peach is up so let's get them in here.

 

[z00ted]

I hate this matchup.

it's in Lucario's favor - without a doubt.

 

[gantrain05]

definately lucarios favor, our lack of kill moves and tendency to get our opponents to rediculously high percents before they die leaves peach in like the worst possible predicament. this is also my most hated MU, even moreso than MK.

also red ryu, did we play at brainshock? i'm Jlo if u didn't know, im almost 100% certain it was u, but im terrible at remembering names.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yup, lost to you and Nicole there.

 

[gantrain05]

Yup, lost to you and Nicole there.

omg XD im sorry, u know that actually happens alot when me and her are at the same tournies, people always either lose to both of us, or knock us both out or we have to play each other and knock the other one out....its so dumb. I hope it was at least some good peach practice tho, u play the MU enough u won't be losin anymore, its soooooo tough for peach to win that one.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I really, really can't stress how much I want to mm praxis again. I'm confident my new playstyle won't be as exploitable, and the time he beat me was like... almost 2 years ago lol. It's a doable MU for peach by every extent, but at the same time, Lucario has better alternative kill moves nowadays outside of fsmash and AS, which work pretty well on any kind of opponent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

omg XD im sorry, u know that actually happens alot when me and her are at the same tournies, people always either lose to both of us, or knock us both out or we have to play each other and knock the other one out....its so dumb. I hope it was at least some good peach practice tho, u play the MU enough u won't be losin anymore, its soooooo tough for peach to win that one.

Well I played Illmatic online, he wrecked me each game, I think I won maybe once out of 25 or so games? lol.

Then I played Xyless' and Zwarm's Peachs, I've beaten them both. I got more experience since Brainshock, but I still lose it once and a while.

Mostly air dodge traps, living longer, and more Aura Sphere usage, made the MU a lot better.

 

[phi1ny3]

You gotta play really campy/pokey for the MU, since traditional approaching gets boned frequently.

I try to pretend lucario fair is like a throw, it's useful for initiating a string, but very punishable if you miss.

Keep control of the middle imo, you get a lot of power with your rolls/aerials oos if you can, otherwise Peach will walk all over you (no pun intended) with dair and nair with the center, with some bair covering your back roll.

throw out some AS to make it harder to float around as much.

Don't force the kill unless you get a hard read, you'll want your more killable aerials to do the job, so you need a setup, or possibly trap landings with AS (hard to do v. float).

Peach has good punishment against predictable dairs, even if she doesn't get you with sweetspot usmash, she has utilt, and to a lesser extent uair to take care of the job. This shouldn't be a problem anymore, but still tends to happen.

use as much of your fakeout/baiting on the ground with things like jab1, empty hops, walking, you need all the lack of commitment you can against Peach's mobility.

 

[Steam]

I went evenish with Ill online. get at me red.

though I can't even write up much about this matchup. It's one that I have a lot of experience in but can't throw things down on paper for some reason....

Just play really smart/passive aggressive and don't fall for her traps that get you fair'd. we can juggle peach pretty well since our fair beats her Dair and she has an awful air dodge. And don't try to punish autocanceled fair on shield. but that's a given. Bair is a great spacing tool because it outranges her stuff and at least competes with her fair (no idea if it beats it, it's close). Also be sure to identify it peach is trying to save her fair or not. If she is saving it then our fair becomes much better and we can space her out much easier.

/whatever

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I went evenish with Ill online. get at me red.

Bair beats her Fair in range or is around equal to it.

 

[D. Disciple]

Learn how to footstool after a fair, the options after that are all rewarding.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Basically what ph1iny3 said. Don't forget to use foxtrots as well - Lucario's foxtrot is a great fakeout due to how much distance it quickly covers

The MU would be even if Lucario didn't get so freakishly strong as the match progresses

If you can predict Peach doing a falling Fair, move out of her way or stutter step an F Smash. If she tries to approach with Floating (Dair for example), either walk/run away or fire an Aura Sphere at her. Go for a Fair or Bair for a mix up (although use Bair anyway cause it has good range and can challenge/beat out Peach's Fair) but beware because otherwise she can re space her Fair with her 2nd jump and punish you for your whiffed aerial. There's going to be a lot of camping in this match so expect Turnips. You can choose to either move out of their way when she throws them or catch them

Abuse the threat of Aura Sphere when she's recovering offstage. With correct timing Peach can airdodge past an incoming Aura Sphere but that still doesn't mean you can't bait/mix it up and catch her out if she airdodges prematurely for example

Be patient when she's on the ledge and when she's trying to land, your F Smash and Up Tilt/Up Smash are nasty threats (especially at high percents) to her


Those are really general things tbh - the MU really boils down to who is more patient, who camps better and who can read/predict better which is what everyone else has pretty much said. It has the makings of an even MU but Lucario wins it out due to Peach's rather rubbish kill power and Lucario's Aura

 

[z00ted]

actually Steam, I beat you 2-0 - but you did really well and took me to last hit game one.

It's wifi though, so who cares? lol

Rick covered alot of what I wanted to say in this matchup.
I would like to add in a few things though.

Abuse Peach's range when you are at high percentages. I'm pretty sure almost all of your kills moves outrange every one of our moves.

Lucario is one of the few characters of whom I do not want my turnips in their hand. Lucario doesn't have alot of really fast paced moves, but if he hits Peach once in the air, he can combo us to ridiculous percentages. Just get a quick hit in and proceed to fair, nair, uair or whatever you guys like to do.

Trela also likes to extend his fair hitbox when I throw a turnip at him. So you guys can try that out. He also rolls around my turnips ALOT - and it's annoying.

We are terrible at recovering in the air - so punish us recovering horizontally with aura, or vertically with uair or bait an airdodge and nair or bair.

Counterpick us to Yoshi's Island. We hate that stage (unable to float as easily), and I know for some reasons Lucarios love it.

Patience usually wins the matchup.