SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Browny]

yeah overall it's a -2.

but I honestly think the higher the TKD, the worse this matchup gets.

fixd

I swear.. Apply this argument to other chars and suddenly mk is a -4 considering cps etc.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So, do people think this is as bad as MK, Snake and DDD?

Also anyone have the link to the vid of Ice and TKD? I'm kinda curious what this vid is cause I'm finding vids of Ice as MK not Lucario atm.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's not up anymore, but basically you saw Ice get 2-stocked by TKD (almost 3-stocked in one) in both matches pretty much, no offense to Ice (although they were a bit old, weren't they like early 2010?). I guess I might be over exaggerating because of the notion that we're talking a top notch player against a mid-level player, but still...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not up anymore, but basically you saw Ice get 2-stocked by TKD (almost 3-stocked in one) in both matches pretty much, no offense to Ice (although they were a bit old, weren't they like early 2010?). I guess I might be over exaggerating because of the notion that we're talking a top notch player against a mid-level player, but still...

Sounds like a skill gap if Ice is described as a mid level player in this situation, no offense Ice.

What about Trela vs Zeton?

 

[Kuares]

The set wasn't recorded as far as I know.

I know Zeton's not the one to just sit back and laser though. I can see if I can find out what happened.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc there's matches of Ozz's fox against Trela, idk if they're friendlies or not, but the fact that Ozz held his own (actually, I think he won both games) with a relatively newly-fielded fox says Lucario has to be really careful, and has to play considerably different considering tons of stuff on block and whiff is punishable by fox. You have to bait him over and over again, the good news is that damage-wise, Fox can't take a whole lot, if Fox had snake's KBR Lucario would be boned for sure, especially with Fox's actually pretty good air game and whatnot. Fox's recovery, umm, it's not as vulnerable as falco's because of the options he has, but it doesn't mean lucario can't harass him a little getting back on

Also, when you're in the 100% range, be very careful of whiffing fsmash or anything laggy especially if fox is on the ground. running usmash makes short work of that nonsense. I'm sure if one SDI's fox's dair ala Mr. Doom DI, you'll take away an otherwise really easy setup for fox at later percents, but I haven't seen it done consistently enough. On neutrals like SV or BF, I think it's -1, ones like FD with more camp potential make it a little tougher

 

[SugarNerd]

Sorry if this is the wrong spot for this, but I figured I would throw this up here.

~ Got alittle bored last night and decided to work on this chart. I have all of those saved individually if you would like to use them, also let me know if any numbers are wrong.

 

[Steam]

It's cool. but sadly some of the ratios are wrong/dated : (

seeing marth at 4-6 and snake not just irks me lmao

 

[Browny]

omg my eyes

those numbers are more painful than espys puns

 

[Steam]

the numbers aren't THAAAAAT bad.

not like BBR matchup chart MK ratios bad

 

[SugarNerd]

It's cool. but sadly some of the ratios are wrong/dated : (

seeing marth at 4-6 and snake not just irks me lmao

You should pass me the correct info, so I can fix it. If possible. (I still have the psd.)

omg my eyes

those numbers are more painful than espys puns

you no liek colors? but seriously, if the colors are too bright let me know. Suggestions and comments are accept.

EDIT: Should I just post this in its own thread?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

iirc there's matches of Ozz's fox against Trela, idk if they're friendlies or not, but the fact that Ozz held his own (actually, I think he won both games) with a relatively newly-fielded fox says Lucario has to be really careful, and has to play considerably different considering tons of stuff on block and whiff is punishable by fox. You have to bait him over and over again, the good news is that damage-wise, Fox can't take a whole lot, if Fox had snake's KBR Lucario would be boned for sure, especially with Fox's actually pretty good air game and whatnot. Fox's recovery, umm, it's not as vulnerable as falco's because of the options he has, but it doesn't mean lucario can't harass him a little getting back on

Also, when you're in the 100% range, be very careful of whiffing fsmash or anything laggy especially if fox is on the ground. running usmash makes short work of that nonsense. I'm sure if one SDI's fox's dair ala Mr. Doom DI, you'll take away an otherwise really easy setup for fox at later percents, but I haven't seen it done consistently enough. On neutrals like SV or BF, I think it's -1, ones like FD with more camp potential make it a little tougher

Illmatic also dropped games to his new Fox from those older vids when I looked for them.

Well either way, I'm not seeing why people are putting Fox in leagues with Snake, Snake lives much longer, has the same attributes with unsafe and wiffed moves on him, his camp game is more effective against Lucario because it puts pressure on him, something Fox's camp game does no do with the lack of hitstun. The damage should be watched but if the Fox is doing SH triple laser you shouldn't be taking huge damage from it compared to him standing still and doing it, which is gonna get him hit and punished since standing lazers are usually inferior to SH triple lazer due to him needing to take all those frames to put the gun away.

Fox is indeed light looking at the chart.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight

Fox is sitting near the bottom with a very low weight.

His recovery two things over Falco, Shine and rising Fair which boosts him second jump height. Granted I think Falco's illusion is better due to speed rather than distance covered, granted reacting to Fox doing is is not easy either.

If Fox plays keep away it is what makes the match-up a bit trouble some, but his lazer game isn't going to lock us down or force us to make slow walking approaches we would with Falco.

Fox is going to run into us eventually because while his vertical jump speed is great, his horizontal isn't as good, so he can't play cat and mouse like Falco does, and more effectively. Difference with this match-up is the fact Fox has much better KO options than Falco does, actually Falco's lower KO power is partly why he has trouble with Lucario.

Although, I'm not really afraid of hiding in shield if Fox runs at me, if he is gonna play keep away he is gonna use Side B or his ground speed with platforms. Dair should only ever combo into Usmash if they lock us in the last two hits of his dair from what I understand most characters can't DI out if he does it properly.

Spacing is essential here since mispacing or whiffing is not good for Lucario to do, Fox can punish us with Usmash or other moves if we whiff. Aurasphere is no different than most characters, use it as a read only do not use it to get pressure, Fox can easily just reflect it on reaction if you fire it really dumb.

If you grab him at low % remember the Uthrow CG, free damage is free damage.

Dunno what else to say really, I think it's even if played out correctly, even if Fox is camping with lasers, but I'm not unwilling to let others opinion of the MU outweigh my own.

Still I suggest people reconsider saying he is as bad as MK, Snake or DDD.

 

[IceDX]

Sounds like a skill gap if Ice is described as a mid level player in this situation, no offense Ice.

What about Trela vs Zeton?

none taken TKD is extremely good and knows lucario very well cuz we play so often, we have discused what the mu options are on various ocasions and well FOX doesnt really need to approach at all untill it wants to go for the kill so LUCARIO is forced to approach a character that has a better ground game and can get away quickly, if he expects a fair aproach he can fair himself and beat you to it, crossovers dont usually go well bc of his uptilt, if you try camping well he can just jump away and or reflect AS.

for me is a hard mu overall if the player knows what to do vs lucario if not you can just destroy him by not letting him get in a kill move and punishing.

right now my mindset going into this mu is about taking the safe hits that i can till he wants to aproach for the kill and punish, i havent found anything so far that makes the mu any easier other than the low % Cg i found quite a wile back but that just makes the fox want to approach less..

im not getting up smashed killed easily btw just in case you were wondering that, tkd began using that to rack up damage instead.

*FOX isnt as bad as MK, SNAKE or DDD but he is hard to deal with as well

*ill post some more mu details later on.
(or ill ask tkd to comment something)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Of course, I'm not gonna doubt I could very well be wrong or that this isn't a bad MU, more so that I found it kinda off putting that he was being put in leagues with MK and such.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, Fox is very glass cannon in this MU, he just happens to be really good at avoiding the "if he gets hit" part, lol.

 

[Rizk18]

I hate versing Lucario, ***** is so annoying especially at high percents. Camping with lasers is good, but when you are in kill percent, your attacks are so strong it's not funny. And they punish especially well on Fox since he's so light. So getting the kill isn't as easy as it sounds just because we have U-smash. It's scary to rush in on Lucario at high percents due to Aura. I still stand by 50-50.

 

[TKD]

I think Ice described the match-up well. I was playing friendlies with some people yesterday and the one that decided to pick Lucario against me said he wasted his turn LOL. Anyway, I used to think Lucario vs Fox is impossible, but it sort of isn't. Since Ice suggested I do so, I'll post what I know Fox can do in the match-up. You can decide whatever from it.

Block his dair and usmash from block (usmash's sweet-spot extends to the height his tag is at). Block his miss-spaced SH fair and usmash or SH fair from block. Shieldgrab his jabs. Punish whiffed fsmash with dash usmash. Wait for a dair and air-jump nair. Safely strike his shield with bair or nair. Bair counters his ground moves. Utilt (the disjoint: behind Fox) counters his ground moves. Wait for an air-dodge and dash usmash, dsmash, dash attack or utilt him. Recover safely (mostly weak hits get into my recovery). Edgeguard gimmicks...I don't think that's consistent, but it's pulled off pretty frequently when I fool around. Counter his fair by putting Fox's fair in front of him (I guess Lucario hops into the hit-boxes during start-up). Oh yeah! Blaster very, very safely. Aura Spheres are weak to reflection and Lucario's dash speed is slow enough to see him coming and get into position. Oh yeah, grabbing him is easy because Fox's grab range and walking ability are better (with the newly disclosed skid animation shield-grab and Fox's quick dash, I guess Fox's dash shieldgrab became a couple frames better by the way). Lucario's fair isn't high reward when he's on defense, so by comparison it's a good idea to chase him with fair or bair. Uair counters Lucario's dair sometimes by out-ranging his disjoint. Otherwise they can trade, which is good if Fox's 2nd hit connects (must be in position to space for that). I -think- Lucario has time to air-dodge or dair again between his baited dair's cool-down and being hit by Fox's uair, so I'm not sure. Nair is a sure thing, fair too...which requires stricter spacing but reaches higher. Fox's mediocre ftilt can work vs Lucario because it tends to be unexpected, it's safe on block (unless powerblocked maybe?) and it matches Lucario's ground game. Ground game in general is OK to go for because Lucario isn't a high reward character at first even if he's low risk.

What I have the most trouble against are elaborate mix-ups from Lucario: the opponent shows a frame/context, then drastically switches the spacing or timing around, which makes the same technique vulnerable to different counters...and if I expect both variations of a tech, I'm vulnerable to something completely different. IceDX is very good at that.

There's a good spot for Lucario. It involves being in range to connect his dair on a Fox that's on the ground. His options are all numerous and result in different timings, which is why it's such a powerful spot (specially when out of Fox's usmash range). He can dair, air-dodge away, air-dodge through opponent. This reminds me: landing with nair is not frequently a good idea against Fox (test your opponent before assuming what works and what doesn't though!). It's an easy shield-grab and a possible dash usmash on whiff (utilt too I guess but that goes for all short range whiffs). I know its cool-down is small, but in my eyes as a Fox player, it's quite large. I guess landing with fair can result in an usmash from whiff or block, but its range can be unexpected for a landing option (don't forget no option and late air-dodge though; you don't want to land like a noob xD).

SH fair to anything doesn't work on blocking Fox btw. Upon connection, Fox can roll into Lucario and avoid his following options: dair, air-dodge mix-ups. You have to space it well though: if you try to go through Fox with the dair, he can usmash from block (the spacing is easy though). If you end up too close, he can SH fair from block (which isn't punishable by SDI into dair btw, since all kicks should be spaced to tipper). If the Fox player doesn't roll away, you can mix-up after the fair with dair outside of his usmash from block range, air-dodge to either side of him or fast-fall sideb. The best option is still getting away if you're opponent's sharp since Fox's SH fair can come out before any of these options. In the end, fair can work as a...bait. It's a bad option if your opponent know what to do against it...but if you use it careful and unpredictably, your opponent may commit to punishing it and become open to other options. So it's really useful still, see? Oh and multi-fair edgeguard is OK for damage dealing and gaining position superiority.

A Lucario that knows the match-up will probably beat a Fox that doesn't. And yes, whatever vids there are up of the match-up are clearly "dated". Even if we used the same options (which isn't likely), the speed and fluidity of today's game play is way more advanced.

I think the key for a Lucario player is to mix-up between high safety and high commitment. Both routes fit well with both low and high aura. For KOs, surprise fsmash and sideb can work (fsmash is more risky but packs quite a punch). Uair is good though expectable. The KO moves I remember working the best against me are things like utilt and unexpected fthrow...so the importance of aura+survivability comes into play a lot.

I also don't think you'll find any Fox player that knows the match-up well, so test him to see what works. Most Fox players aren't aware of their options. That's all of my input for now, however unorganized the info might be. I'll leave it at "whoever cares will read it". This is my best-known match-up.

P.S.: As a Fox player, I don't see Fox as a "glass cannon" at all; all of his opponents are the ones who feel that way! They're all either less KO capable or easier to juggle than him. Also I think Lucario's more fragile than Fox in this case, given his KO power and upDI+fastfalling, besides Lucario's recovery.

Wario and King Dedede, are probably Lucario's worst match-ups btw. FOX AND MK ARE NOT IN THEIR LEAGUE. I don't know about G&W. Ice says that one's difficult, even though he's better than the G&W player he deducted this from. What I don't know is -how- difficult he thinks it is.

 

[Steam]

I pretty much agree with the last thing TKD said. in theory the matchup is horrible(honestly one of our worst) but basically no one plays that well/smart...

 

[Browny]

Thanks tkd, thats worth a lot lol

However... "sh dair to anything doesnt work on blocking fox btw"

See this is why theorycraft cant be trusted. Whilst yes that is true sometimes, it changes on lucs %. How often will lucario be at low % and foxes shield at full? Dair can and will shieldstab often. Seeing as usmash oos after dair is considered a ko move, that is only so because dair doesnt shieldstab normally but when usmash actually will ko, there is no guarantee that it will actually work.

Its things like this everyone overlooks in luc matchup. Just because it works sometimes, doesnt mean it is legit vs lucario.

 

[TKD]

in THEORY, only wario and ddd are horrible. i don't even think mk's that bad.
browny, I've played A TON. i posted -no- theorycraft. if fox's shield is low he'll just roll into Lucario after blocking sh fair.

 

[Browny]

You mentioned dair originally... And im extending it to the usmash oos > dair which while you didnt ecplicitly mention, someone always does.

 

[TKD]

You mentioned dair originally... And im extending it to the usmash oos > dair which while you didnt ecplicitly mention, someone always does.

i meant fair

 

[gantrain05]

or u could, u know, angle your shield upwards

 

[Steam]

@TKD- G&W is pretty evenish... and Wario isn't that bad at all... I guess it could maaaaaybe a 4-6 if Wario plays maximum lame. D3 is only doodoo for us because of Dthrow>upsmash

Snake is definitely hardest or 2nd hardest tho...

and yeah fox has a pretty good shield. we won't be poking it with a dair if he angles it up... and if it's low enough that we can... then if we didn't we'd break his shield.

 

[phi1ny3]

D3 is really not that bad imo, and while a D3 theoretically should be able to pull off dthrow -> usmash every time, the punishment for missing is... a free fsmash for lucario

but that's a different topic altogether

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thanks for the write up TKD, it's appreciated.

Stages, ban Bf or Halberd, take him to Lylat or YI.

Dair does shield poke a lot, I haven't looked at Fox's Shield or thought about it too much so IDK how well it can shield poke him off the top of my head, Fox isn't that big so I don't think it's as easy as lets say DK who is a lot easier to shield poke.

 

[TKD]

id cp castle seige or PS1 against fox

ban: halberd


*This is Ice BTW

 

[phi1ny3]

yeah, Fox is a monster on halberd.

 

[IceDX]

yeah, Fox is a monster on halberd.

i woulnt say monster, but he is definitely harder on that stage compared to any other imo

ive also have had bad experiences on frigate although that´s most likely just me...

 

[D. Disciple]

Nah I wouldn't recommend counter picking frigate against Fox. It brings the match up highly in his favor.

 

[phi1ny3]

frigate seems meh, I only take people to frigate if I know I can abuse their recoveries and pressure them on the right side, Fox seems pretty good at abusing his camping there at times.

 

[John12346]

This is out of nowhere, but since no one's seemed to have said anything about Fox for a while...

Against Falco, would it be a good idea to just let Falco laser you to 10% - 20% at the beginning of all of your stocks, so he can't get a free ~50% off the grab he's gonna probably get?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well technically he only gets 3 grabs to a dair, but after that nothing is garenteed.

How would people feel about talking about Ness btw? Some have interest in talking about it.

 

[John12346]

Uh, I was referring to the Dthrow > Dair > Jab > regrab > Dthrow > Dair/Usmash combo. My DI's booty, so maybe it would be more prudent for me to take some free damage at the beginning of my stocks?

Also yes, Ness is a good idea, but after I get those Falco tips. He annoying. >.<;

 

[phi1ny3]

I really need to test for that to confirm whether that works framewise, almost every time I've been able to get out of that even with good falcos.

 

[iRJi]

I really need to test for that to confirm whether that works framewise, almost every time I've been able to get out of that even with good falcos.

it doesn't. Nothing is garenteed after that Jab. In fact, frame wise, Falcos first hit jab is punishable off of hit if DI'd properly to a correct option.

Edit: Not all characters can do it, just throwing that out there.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh I meant grabbing after dair

 

[John12346]

It gives us hitlag very analogous to Snake's Ftilt1.

Pretty sure that means free grab... >___ >;

 

[iRJi]

It gives us hitlag very analogous to Snake's Ftilt1.

Pretty sure that means free grab... >___ >;

No, it doesn't actually. Recheck your numbers. Some of the Falco hit data is wrong. I am 100% positive that Falco's first hit jab is not safe on hit for a good amount of characters. No,I am not gettting it confused with 3rd hit either. Run falco through frame by frame.

 

[John12346]

Uh yeah... I think I made a mistake when I said Jab

Dthrow > Dair > regrab > Dthrow > Usmash/Dair/something to finish it off

Back to the point, though. Should I just eat a few lasers so I don't have to worry my *** off about getting grabbed for 50%?