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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

Uffe

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Ness' PKT can juggle, but it's pretty much for harassing and racking up as much damage possible. You can escape it, but Ness usually doesn't just go straight in for the hit. He follows first and then will try and tail whip into hitting with all of the PKT. Fair and nair I would think are annoying against you guys. I've had Lucario give me somewhat of a difficult time with his aerial attacks. You don't think that stuff is ever that close until you realize you're getting hit by it.

As for Ness' PSI Magnet, I thought I'd let you know that he can lag cancel out of it if struck with your Aura Sphere. In other words, he can jump, roll, dodge or attack out of it when the Aura Sphere hits his PSI Magnet. I've done this a few times whenever I had the chance. I won't even bother going into "gimping" because that's all I pretty much ever see whenever I'm in any match up.

When it comes to Ness' kill moves, he's got more than a back throw, which I don't rely on very much and a back aerial. If you ever find yourself in the situation of being off stage, he can nair you, spike you or even attempt a PKFl, depending on where you're at when off stage. If you're in the air, his uair can be used and/or he can use PKT2 which isn't as much of a risky move like it'd be on the ground. Overall, the last time I played a Lucario, which was really good in my opinion, it changed my thoughts on the match up to 50:50. That's what I truly think about this one.

EDIT: Lol. I said "kick moves". XD It was around 6:00 am when writing this out. XD
 

phi1ny3

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Good to know about PSI magnet :D
Yeah Dog would whip the tail around, but I think if you keep a cool head, you can get out, esp. with breversal/disjointed aerials to nab the head.
Ness has a below average recovery, I'm saying it's less of a problem with Ness' recovery and more of the fact that lucario has some really good gimp tools.
I remember Dog Latin trying to nail me with PKFlash, never ever got me lol. Be smart when offstage. tbh, I found nair didn't kill me until late %s as well.
Still, I'd have to say Ness' best tools are probably nair, fair, and dash grab -> bthrow or dthrow, depending on the percent.
I'm inclined to say about 55:45. Ness has some nice tools, but lack of reliable kill moves beyond bthrow hurts, the others seem to be telegraphed (with possibly the exception of bair, but is a somewhat late killer).
 

Uffe

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Well it's actually too early to determine a match up ratio, I think. As for Ness' recovery, I didn't bother with that because a lot of people think that when Ness is off the stage, he's not coming back, which isn't true. Where he is off the stage is what people don't think about. If he's above or at stage level, he's coming back. Chances are he'll still have a second jump when coming back. If he's below the stage, then things could get a little itchy.

He doesn't have the best of recoveries, but it's not as bad as people think it is, either. Anyway, I thought I'd just mention that now because it's not really that easy to gimp Ness. And speaking of recoveries, I guess it's bad that PKFl didn't work as he wanted it to. D; And yes, you can escape Ness' PKT juggling, but hey, if you're Ness, go for it anyway. At least you're throwing some damage on your opponent. ;)
 

junebug

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never really had much trouble with ness. space well, be prepared for that nasty fair of his, and tack on the damage/gimp him when you manage to take him offstage.

*waits for zucco to arrive*

oh yeah, im like 99% sure ness can nair OOS when a lucario fair hits his shield, kinda annoying if you're a aerial lucario (can anyone confirm this?). needs good timing though. and if ya space well, it shouldnt happen all too much.

EDIT: frigate seems like a good CP
 

phi1ny3

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Well it's actually too early to determine a match up ratio, I think. As for Ness' recovery, I didn't bother with that because a lot of people think that when Ness is off the stage, he's not coming back, which isn't true. Where he is off the stage is what people don't think about. If he's above or at stage level, he's coming back. Chances are he'll still have a second jump when coming back. If he's below the stage, then things could get a little itchy.

He doesn't have the best of recoveries, but it's not as bad as people think it is, either. Anyway, I thought I'd just mention that now because it's not really that easy to gimp Ness. And speaking of recoveries, I guess it's bad that PKFl didn't work as he wanted it to. D; And yes, you can escape Ness' PKT juggling, but hey, if you're Ness, go for it anyway. At least you're throwing some damage on your opponent. ;)
I wholeheartedly agree that ness' recovery is underrated, doesn't he still have his full horizontal aerial movement in the falling state? Plus that fair is handy for batting away edgeguarders.
And yes, I'm just saying that there are ways to get out of PKT juggling, I didn't say that it wasn't useless, just know how to get out and do it quick because it adds damage kinda fast. Anything that offers free, safe damage imo is a pretty good idea.
Second jump fair is pretty good offstage, I still think lucario's offstage game will be enough against ness, provided he gets in quickly after a setup.
Oh yeah, DI PKfire quickly, otherwise it's free grab/other shenanigans bait.
Remember, this is from lucario's perspective.

Edit: *Waits in line with Junebug*
 

Uffe

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If Ness is getting hit horizontally off the stage, then I don't know what's up with my Ness. :dizzy: I usually find myself above or at stage level when knocked off. I think maybe DI has something to do with it.
 

phi1ny3

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I have a quick question:
What frame does Ness nair come out?
I'm curious. (it determines some... things)
Edit: nevermind, it looks like it comes out on frame 5)
 

AvariceX

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I have a quick question:
What frame does Ness nair come out?
I'm curious. (it determines some... things)
Edit: nevermind, it looks like it comes out on frame 5)
Yeah, it hits on frame 5. And at the above mention of lack of kill moves outside of bthrow, that's pretty misinformed. Ness has a lot of kill moves. Roughly in order... fsmash tipper, Bthrow, Uair, Dair (sweetspot or sourspot on-stage), sweetspot bair, fsmash sourspot all kill at typical kill %'s (100-130%).... PK Flash and PKT2 kill stupidly low (about 30% and 50% respectively) but can be hard to land... dair spike off-stage kills at 0, dsmash, usmash, ftilt, and utilt kill at high %'s (130-150ish)

I should also mention that nair is an average kill-move but will almost always be at least a little stale.

I'm bad at matchup analysis but I've played several Lucario's in tourney and I've never thought this was anything other than a 50:50 matchup.
 

Zucco

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Sorry, cant really help on this even though I use both these characters. Since ive never fought a Lucario as Ness or Vise Versa I would just be theory crafting and I rather avoid something like that when it comes to matchups.
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, it hits on frame 5. And at the above mention of lack of kill moves outside of bthrow, that's pretty misinformed. Ness has a lot of kill moves. Roughly in order... fsmash tipper, Bthrow, Uair, Dair (sweetspot or sourspot on-stage), sweetspot bair, fsmash sourspot all kill at typical kill %'s (100-130%).... PK Flash and PKT2 kill stupidly low (about 30% and 50% respectively) but can be hard to land... dair spike off-stage kills at 0, dsmash, usmash, ftilt, and utilt kill at high %'s (130-150ish)

I should also mention that nair is an average kill-move but will almost always be at least a little stale.

I'm bad at matchup analysis but I've played several Lucario's in tourney and I've never thought this was anything other than a 50:50 matchup.
Good to know about PSI magnet :D
Yeah Dog would whip the tail around, but I think if you keep a cool head, you can get out, esp. with breversal/disjointed aerials to nab the head.
Ness has a below average recovery, I'm saying it's less of a problem with Ness' recovery and more of the fact that lucario has some really good gimp tools.
I remember Dog Latin trying to nail me with PKFlash, never ever got me lol. Be smart when offstage. tbh, I found nair didn't kill me until late %s as well.
Still, I'd have to say Ness' best tools are probably nair, fair, and dash grab -> bthrow or dthrow, depending on the percent.
I'm inclined to say about 55:45. Ness has some nice tools, but lack of reliable kill moves beyond bthrow hurts, the others seem to be telegraphed (with possibly the exception of bair, but is a somewhat late killer).
Big difference. I know Ness can kill lol. This alone kills half the list though. Bair kills pretty much after bthrow percent wise and gets outranged, and maybe uair/nair is good too, but the others are either telegraphed or for punishing something like AD.
 

AvariceX

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phi1ny3

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Like I previously mentioned, it's a good defense option for Ness (although I had no idea it had that much b0rk3n r4ng3 1337 h4X). And to reclarify, Lucario has good edgeguard options, I'm confident though Ness can still make it back like most chars, albeit needing to use second jump very wisely, Ness fair will obviously take care of premature edgehogging, and my opinion is that it's in lucario's favor slightly is because of better, more solid tools for the MU in terms of damaging and possibly out-lasting Ness, provided lucario has a brain and doesn't get killed early from early "hypnokills".
 

GreyClover

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Ike.

Always be patient and wait for Ike to approach. His wieght makes him a big target for aerial or ground combos. Jab, jab, to force plam is really good along with Utilts for easy damage. Just don't get too greedy otherwise you'll be eating a Fair that hurts. Nothing we have outranges it which is why you should be careful when he's approaching. As long as you play in Lucario's good aspects it wouldn't be too hard to aviod Ike's jab attacks. You can also force plam chain grab Ike fairly well at early percents.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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How many boards wanted to discuss us in the past week?

Wow.

edit: Match-ups, right.

Ness is my favorite of the phychic Duo from earthbound, I'm not a big fan of Lucas. Well first off, we beat him on the ground. Our ground game will beat his with range and priority. Not ot say he can't fight on the ground, but er just have better tools. Air game is a different story, Ness is much better in the air than on the ground. His Fair is really a annoying, none of our moves can beat it head on, maybe Bair but generally his Fair is a monster, even more so on the defense. His Dair will spike, his Uair and Bair will kill, and his Nair is a fast move. I think Ness has better movement in the air than Lucario.

Don't be reckless with Aura sphere, 16% is very yummy to Ness, he'll eat it with Psi magnet. Be very careful with it. He could also Bat the Aura sphere away for a mix up, but generally if he could have batted it, it means he could have absorbed it, that means we should have never shot the Aura Sphere. I just don't think it's all that great in this MU, at all.

Ness's PK thunder won't juggle you if you use an aerial to cancel it out. I learned recently that Lucario could do this and I've been playing again the juggle wrong. PK Fire can be shielded, but if it does hit you need to DI away before he can follow up. Ness has a few follow up to this if it hits you.

Since kill moves were said, Bthrow is nasty. It's annoying how it can kill, however, Ness has bad grab range. So while he does have bad grab range, his pivot grab is something to take note of. Just avoid it by spacing smart, it's easier for Lucario to space out the grab, but mess-ups will happen. In the Air Bair can kill, if may happen later like 130-150 range but it is a reliable killer. His Uair, just Dair. The bat, just jab or space Ftilt. Nair can be beat by Fair or Nair, but Ness's fair can just smack those away. Honestly I'm seeing Bair, Bthrow, and maybe later Nair to kill.

I think Lucario has a small, by small like 2%, more chanse to gimp Ness than vice versa. We can edge hog each other if we go for the ledge, but at he same time we can go high and land on the stage. Lucario can curve his ES to reduce landing lag, while Ness kind of has to deal with it.

Stage wise, dunno. Frigate to complement Lucario's Recovery more while hindering Ness's a bit. I'm clueless on what Ness will pick.

60-40 Lucario. Maybe 55-45.

Ike is later.
 

Kitamerby

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Spam BAS against Ness. He'll try to break through at first and will get hit by a few. Once he starts absorbing, stop. Repeat when he puts down his magnet.

Lucario can CG Ness, like everyone else. Every time you spot an opening, abuse it for lots o damage.

SDI Up and away from the PK Fire, iirc. Don't DI the Bthrow if you're near the center of the stage, or if he's grabbing you on the outside of the stage and aiming inwards. Instead, just hold directly towards Ness so you stay going at the default 45 degree angle and can use your aerial momentum to slow your flight. DI up if he's throwing you when you're close to the edge and he's throwing you off, obviously.

Use Aura Sphere or Fsmash if he recovers wrong. If you wanna be funny, drop down if he's using PKT2 to recover and then tech the stage after it hits you. It'll shorten his trajectory and he'll die.

I personally prefer to pick somewhere long to CG, like FD, but I'm not sure where the best place to go is exactly. Ness sucks.
 

Uffe

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Spam BAS against Ness. He'll try to break through at first and will get hit by a few. Once he starts absorbing, stop. Repeat when he puts down his magnet.
A smart player would rather dodge or block than use his PSIM to absorb.

Lucario can CG Ness, like everyone else. Every time you spot an opening, abuse it for lots o damage.
CG or GR?

SDI Up and away from the PK Fire, iirc.
Couldn't you just counter or no?

If you wanna be funny, drop down if he's using PKT2 to recover and then tech the stage after it hits you. It'll shorten his trajectory and he'll die.
Risking yourself to shorten the range isn't exactly a smart idea. You could easily get stage spiked.

I personally prefer to pick somewhere long to CG, like FD, but I'm not sure where the best place to go is exactly. Ness sucks.
Ness doesn't suck, thanks. He can get far.
 

Kitamerby

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A smart player would rather dodge or block than use his PSIM to absorb.
Then nothing changes. Keep spamming and running away.



CG or GR?
Chaingrab/CG. Luc's GR options aren't that amazing, but I think ForcePalm works.



Couldn't you just counter or no?
You could, and it DOES actually connect, but that would require hitting down on the analog stick as well as the B button at the same time, a command that sets off a flag that makes Lucario spontaneously explode.



Risking yourself to shorten the range isn't exactly a smart idea. You could easily get stage spiked.
It's still fun as hell if you learn to tech it.



Ness doesn't suck, thanks. He can get far.
Yes he does.
 

RT

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Ness

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Fair: This is probably one of Ness' main moves. It has a pretty big hitbox, lasts forever, causes a good amount of shieldstun, it's multihitting, it's good for walling and making approaching difficult...I could go on forever. You can't challenge Ness's fair with Lucario, so don't even bother.

-Dair: It's a spike move and one of the strongest in the game! Fortunately, it has a decent amount of startup time, so you should see it coming. If you're below a Ness when recovering, expect a possible spike attempt.

-Bair: It's like Zelda's lightning kicks, so treat it as such. It's a kill move, so be wary of it.

-Nair: Pretty decent OoS option for Ness so watch out for it.

-Bthrow:This is one of his major kill moves and a guaranteed kill move because most Ness players will not use it until they are certain it will kill. After a certain percent, no amount of DI will save you...so once you are at a high percentage, start playing more careful and don't get grabbed! Be especially careful about pivot/boost grab bthrows.

-PSI Magnet: It absorbs energy based projectiles, and Aura Sphere is energy based...so naturally, do not spam AS. It also creates a small windbox.

-PK Thunder: This is Ness' recovery move. If see a Ness recovering, you can try to throw an AS or attack the thunder projectile and cause a gimp. Be sure you hit only the thunder, and not Ness. And once Ness actually initiates PKT2, do not get in his way, or prepare to take massive damage and knockback. The only plus side is that jumping into his PKT2 will considerably shorten the amount of distance he recovers. But, if you throw an AS into him during his PKT2, it can shorten the distance just as well.

-PK Flash: You will rarely, if ever, see this move used. It can be used as a possible edgeguard or mindgame for combos or whatnot, but its limited range makes it practically useless. Still, if you see one coming towards you, move away from it. Do not try to challenge it with anything, because you will lose.

-Fsmash: Think of it like Ike's Fsmash in terms of startup time.

-MISC: Floaty and light. Somewhat small size, but a FAT head, lol.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Do not blindly approach Ness, or you will receive multiple fairs to the face. Even though his fair can be used to wall, it can be easy to get around. Roll behind, empty short hop, walking slowly and shielding...just be smart.
-Fsmash can outrange Ness for the most part.
-Tilt are useful in this matchup.
-I don't know if there are grab releases on Ness, but if there is one, feel free to use it I guess. You really shouldn't need it...

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Since Ness' recovery is limited in terms of versatility so expect to edgeguard Ness easily. He only has two options: aim for the edge, or aim for the stage (sometimes for a platform if there is one). If he aims for the stage, you can punish him. If he aims for the edge and you're hanging there with invincibility, he dies. Mindgame the Ness into recovering the wrong way and then take advantage.
-As long as you can avoid Ness' two main kill moves (bair and bthrow), you should outlast the Ness. Just don't get gimped or spiked!

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-PSI Magnet can limit AS's usefulness. Don't spam fully charged ones. If the Ness is offstage, throw some uncharged AS off as bait, and then fair them when they absorb them. They will only gain a few percents back and be even further offstage, which is a bad position.
-Since Lucario has no protection during his recovery, be mindful of possible spike attempts. Ness' dair is one of the most powerful spikes in the game, so don't be surprised if you die at low percents after getting spiked.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-I honestly don't have a clue here. Ideally, you want stages that have pits since Ness' main weakness is his recovery, so avoid Pirate Ship. I dunno, someone else can fill this part int...

Definitely in Lucario's favor. If you really want numbers...60:40 or something around there.
 

GreyClover

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hmm, I guess I'll do Ness now.

Lucario does have advantages in many parts of the match. You can outrange your oppenent fairly easy, Fsmashes and tilts make Ness hate being on the ground. When your aura buffed, Ness gets ***** as bad as Link's recovery. Lucario also can gimp Ness because of his bad movement in the air and his risky recovery. Try and use aura sphere alot to gimp because if it hits Ness's pk tunder, he's ****ed up. Don't get comfortable yet though because Ness is not afraid to gimp either. A bair near the blastzones are real scary espically if you're in mid/high damage, dair definitely hurts when it spikes you even at a ****ing 0%, and any else gimps pretty decent as well. Grabs are a big part of the match, Lucario's will grab to start the dreaded grab release chains. Ness will use it for killing. But don't worry too much about it, Ness's grab is pretty easy to aviod just do not underrestermate Ness's grab range, he actually has the best dash grab in the game. If you do get caught, a Bthrow can kill you at 110%. Now Bairs are a little bit different but it's a bit more often used, try your best and never get in back of Ness or do any fancy aerial stuff. Sometimes an Fsmash may kill but it generally lacks in speed and priority although watch out for a tippered fsmash that kills at 90%.

Ness's psi magnet acts like a reflecter except it doesn't reflect but absorbs. An aura sphere aborbed heals Ness real good not to mention that it stops BAS spamming either, I think Ness can aborb a force plam also if he's spaced close enough. A pk fire is real good even to a floaty character like Lucario. Watch out because Ness can spring up dthrows to Fairs for about 30% damage.

For a stage counterpick, I dunno but I'd have to chose Frigate Orpheon.

At first I thought it was really even but after reading everyone else's post and mines today but now I'm thinking maybe 6-4 Lucario.
 

Xyro77

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i know i promised the lucario vs samus matchup a while back but for some reason i totally forgot about it. Ill have it up TONIGHT! I swear!!!!
 

RT

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I'll add to it when he finishes! :)
 

phi1ny3

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Otay! :D
So, how about talking about the Ike MU? Is Ryko trying to get on that? And could we have discussion on it?

I think we have to keep a few things in mind to watch out for:
Raaaange: fair in particular is a pretty nasty aerial that is actually deceptively good for zoning. iirc, it has some slight IASA frames on it. Careful of it. ftilt, utilt, bair, and nair also have really nice range.
Nair: Autocancels, and allows for a good transition to his nasty jab game. If you get hit by it but are out of range for a jab, he can still try to outzone you with fair or some aerials as a mixup. This shouldn't be too bad though because our aerials are good for walling off before he can get another one out.
Jaaaaab: It's amazing, comes out on frame 3, and can lead to utilt or grab if you don't SDI out, but the whole thing still does a whopping 14%. Get away, you can't really challenge it unless for some odd reason he misses.
Bair: Fastest aerial startup wise, can be used to punish misspaced aerials, and killing. Very good of keeping Ike somewhat safe from aerial shenanigans. As Isai says, "Don't get hit"
tilts: Ike's tilts are pretty powerful, with less speed compared to snakes but about the same kill power. ftilt has long range horizontally, and utilt vertical, can punish misspaced/mistimed stuff pretty well.
The key here is to not underestimate Ike, projectiles can hurt him a lot, but he has the capability to do some good gains against someone who isn't spacing right when he comes in. His recovery methods are pretty meh, so gimping is a possibility with fair strings. Overall I'd say the MU is either 60:40 or 65:35 lucario's favor.
 

Xyro77

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LU LU vs SAM SAM

60-40 in Lucarios favor


If you dont feel like reading this decently sized post just rea the next sentence. At the Highest level of play for Lucario AND Samus, the match-up ratio would be 60 to 40 in Lucarios favor. If you wish to see WHY, proceed to the paragraphs below. WHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!





DBZ $hit

I dont know the correct term for it but i call it "DBZ $hit" because when goku loses a fight(gets his *** beat) he gets stronger. Same for lucario! Each time you kids get hit your attacks do more damage. Ive seen poor ZS's get kill at 40% from a lucario at like 165% and 2 stocks behind doing a F-smash. That **** is screwed up. Anyway, this DBZ $hit is KEY in the samus vs lucario matchup....as u read on, you will understand.



Projectiles

Right out fo the boxs samus has you beat. She can pelt you with lock-on missles/Homing missles/Charge Shot(cs) and Zair(yes i consider it a projectile). Feel scared yet? In reality it is the SAMUS players who should be scared.

Ok so while we build up EASY damage on Lucario from our spam(this is our priority because samus has problems uilding up damage with melee attacks) we also are fueling your DBZ $hit. So in reality, the more we spam and the more the spam hits you, its making you stronger......********.

Another thing we HATE is the fact that your MEDIUM to fully charged aura sphere GOES THROUGH zair, lock-on/homing missles and weak charge shot. WE MUST HAVE a CS that is EQUAL to your Aura Sphere or else yours beats ours and we take the hit. Lucario is one of the 2 chars that have a projectile that can stop ALL of our projectils. Its just dumb and it gives lucario a nice advantage on Samus's BEST attribute.....projectiles.

Overall, i think Samus wins this department slightly.



Melee attacks

Im not gonna sugar coat this ****: I WET MYSELF WHEN LU LU IS IN MY FACE. Not only does samus's weight make her easy as hell to combo, we dont really have a move that will STOP the combos once we are in it.

I might be spillin' a secret to you lu lu kids that the world doesnt want you to know but....tee hee.... Lucario's aura has invisible hit boxes.....OMG LIKE YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT ALREADY!!!! But seriously, your attacks can be spaced in a way to where EVEN if we shield, you can still stay out of range of our longest melee attacks: d tilt, f tilt.

Thanks to your DBZ $hit, you can make alot of your moves KO moves. Man, ive seen lucarios Fthrow, Uair, Bair, Dair, fsmash, Dsmash and some times ive seen Utilt kill. Samus only has 3 reliable KO moves. CS, Dtilt, and F smash(assuming its not already exhausted).

Overall, Lucario will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS win in this department.



Recovery and Gimping

Ah yes, this is the ONE WAY Samus can tunr the tide of the match and win! As all of you know, Samus is VERY VERY floaty which allows us to get back to the stage easier than most. You also know that our Tether is the LONGEST(yes more than ZS and olimar) in the game. You MIGHT even know that we can STILL bomb jump like we did in melee. And if you ever played a Samus you know her UP+B has great hieght and its MULTI hitting so the chances of you edge hogging our recovery is slim to none.

Now combine that with lucarios PREDICTABLE and SLOW recovery. Sure you can wall cling but dont kid yourself, its trash and you know it. Samus can shoot multiple missles to stop you recovery LOW or HIGH and she can even run off stage to shoot missle of zair. Spiking the recovery and wall cling is nothing hard for samus player because MOST of our kills on the ENTIRE cast consists of spike so we know every way possible to set up for it and force you to get in the range of it.

However, Lucario DOES have answers. Simply STAY in the middle or as close to the middle of the stage as you can. What is samus gonna do, come run up to your face and MAKE you go to the ledge? NO, read the section above here again and realize we CANT melee attack your *** at ALL so we cant force you to the ledge that way. Only our projectiles can do that.....oh wait, did you read the first section? Yea if u did you would know that, if done correctly, samus projectils SHOULDNT mess with you that much if you keep a medium to fully charged Aura sphere handy at all times.

Yes i know lucario can run off and fair or combo samus, but do u really wanna take the chance of doing that and then have us use our GREAT recovery and tether the ledge you were UP+Bing to? Its not worth it so dont try it.

Overall, samus wins in this department.



Stages to Ban/CP

Samus's BEST neutral stages:

FD: this allows us to run away and set up HUGE walls of projectiles.
BF: obviously the platforms gives us decent advantages on most of the cast.
SV: moving platform opens up new ways of camping.

Samus WORST neutral stages:

YI: The ledges screw up out Zairs and other "coming from the ledge" attacks. Shy guys and tilting platform mess up our missiles.
Lylat C(if legal): The platforms are nice but the ledge and tilting stage can screw us up badly.

Samus BEST CP:

lol the neutrals that we are good at are generally what most samus players CP with.
Some other(like me) pick PKMN 1 or Jungle japes or Norfair.

Samus WORST CP:

Just take us to ANY LEVEL where there is little to NO room to spam. Projectiles is 80% of our game and if you take it away or reduce it greatly.....what do we have left?



The Grand Scheme

Samus CANNOT kill
Samus ONLY does well when we have room to spam
Samus has SLOW melee atatcks

So pretty much, GET in our face. We DO NOT have a reliable answer to that method. ALWAYS have a medium to fully charged Aura Sphere on hand in case the spam gets too bad, fire it and run behind it to get BACK in our face(lol thats f-ed up), Pick stages where we CANT spam so that way you reduce our MAIN way of building your %s. Make sure you use your DBZ $hit to its fullest, it works on the WHOLE cast.
 

G-Beast

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
646
Location
St Johns, newfoundland
3DS FC
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ah so Xyro is another one of the fooled people. Lucario's recovery may have no hit boxes, but guess what; we're really floaty, just like you... 90% of the time we wont have to even use our UpB...

btw our Dair beats you UpB, no questions asked... and its easy to get past your lock on missles because our fair beats them at 0% aura... we arent that easy to gimp... and our Uair beats your dair...

overall Xyro thats an excellent post

ima have a couple vids at some point.. i hope they will help
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
I think uncharged missiles help a lot for edgeguarding though, really tactically amazing if you can get them to connect, imo better than "cover firing" with BAS and punishing based on reaction.
slow projectiles ftw.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
ah so Xyro is another one of the fooled people. Lucario's recovery may have no hit boxes, but guess what; we're really floaty, just like you... 90% of the time we wont have to even use our UpB...
Not true.
btw our Dair beats you UpB, no questions asked... and its easy to get past your lock on missles because our fair beats them at 0% aura... we arent that easy to gimp... and our Uair beats your dair...

overall Xyro thats an excellent post
I am not the Samus expert but Doesn't Samus have invincibility frames on her UpB? And if that is right, I also think it's a good amount of them also. So I am not sure, but unless we catch Samus at the end of the UpB, She will beat us out. Again, I am not sure, I am almost sure that it makes one hell of an OOS option though
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
ah so Xyro is another one of the fooled people. Lucario's recovery may have no hit boxes, but guess what; we're really floaty, just like you... 90% of the time we wont have to even use our UpB...
In the case you are at stage level OR below stage level, what i said applies. You CANNOT guarantee 90% of the time you will be above the stage while recovering. And EVEN if you did, you lucarios tend to do 2 things, dair(to stop your falling) or airdodge. I could come back and bring a deluge of counters to that way of recovering but i didnt. I specified EXACTLY what we can do to you given the fact u recovery AT or BELOW the stage level.

btw our Dair beats you UpB, no questions asked... and its easy to get past your lock on missles because our fair beats them at 0% aura... we arent that easy to gimp... and our Uair beats your dair...
Again incorrect. U assume i would just be randomly UP+B to get back to the stage. You need to consider the samus you would be playing. THE HIGHEST LEVEL SAMUS....aka ME or Tudor. We do things like shoot a missle or zair bfore we UP+B so that it clears the way or produces a chance for us to pull of the UP+B. btw, it has invincibility frames if UP+B is done from the ground.

Lucario Uair does beat Samus dair if i challenged it head on. But if i challenged it with the side where the hit box starts(again, samus at its highest level), samus wins. Dont say its ALWAYS wins because it doesnt.

As for missles, yes you are right you can fair thru a single missle. But again, AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL, missles arent used to damage as much as they are used to SET UP for grabs or CS or many other things. Do assume fair beating a missle is the answer to missles.......cause its not.



Key thing to remember, this is BRAWL. Nothing is 100% certain. h and do not feel like i am trying to be mean or shoot you down. I just want people to realize lucario is not an unstopable force vs samus. We have things.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
In the case you are at stage level OR below stage level, what i said applies. You CANNOT guarantee 90% of the time you will be above the stage while recovering. And EVEN if you did, you lucarios tend to do 2 things, dair(to stop your falling) or airdodge. I could come back and bring a deluge of counters to that way of recovering but i didnt. I specified EXACTLY what we can do to you given the fact u recovery AT or BELOW the stage level.



Again incorrect. U assume i would just be randomly UP+B to get back to the stage. You need to consider the samus you would be playing. THE HIGHEST LEVEL SAMUS....aka ME or Tudor. We do things like shoot a missle or zair bfore we UP+B so that it clears the way or produces a chance for us to pull of the UP+B. btw, it has invincibility frames if UP+B is done from the ground.
Yesssssssssssssssssss! i was right. get at me Cheaaaaa.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
well relax, im not tryin to be like "omg im right and you are wrong" i just dont want confusion in the match-up.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
well relax, im not tryin to be like "omg im right and you are wrong" i just dont want confusion in the match-up.
No, its because I really didn't have a clue, and I end up being right. =]. I don't take spreading knowledge as a competition.
 
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