SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[D. Disciple]

There are 4 moves that stop Luigi.

Ftilt

Bair

Dair

Aura Sphere

those are the only 4 moves you need in this match up.

You camp against Luigi, if he's trying to space with bair, then you can angle your ftilt and knock him away or bair him.

If he tries to use his down b, you can bair it, aura sphere it, ftilt it or shield wait to see if he retreats or stays, then punish accordingly.

If you jump in the air and get close to him, buffer spotdodge and ftilt immediately.

If he's recovering with down b, dair him, if he uses green missile shoot an aura sphere, hell you can even bair it.

Don't try to fsmash when he's on the ledge without proper spacing, he can shoot fireball, walk up then up b you.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Anyone got anything else? Or should we move on?

 

[culexus・wau]

I think we're good here unless any top luigi players want to come in and tell us we're wrong.

Who should we move onto?

 

[Browny]

any luigi players

lol

time to move on then.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wanna talk about Wolf, cause I sure do, or Link either works.

 

[culexus・wau]

I can talk about wolf

if we do link can we do another character with him as well? :>


or we could do wolf and link lol

BOTH CHARACTERS HAVE NO REP ANYWAY... except for that one dude with the arcanine avatar and uses the arcanine smiley thats EU. he could probably give wolf stuff.

 

[Steam]

I can get seagull in here. He's played june a lot and is one of the best wolfs

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sounds like Wolf, umm let me do a wright up and I'll invite them over tomarrow.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I can talk about wolf

if we do link can we do another character with him as well? :>


or we could do wolf and link lol

BOTH CHARACTERS HAVE NO REP ANYWAY... except for that one dude with the arcanine avatar and uses the arcanine smiley thats EU. he could probably give wolf stuff.

GHEBBYYYYYY.

I can get seagull in here. He's played june a lot and is one of the best wolfs

Namesearch bait heaven today. My name is popping up everywhere, though most people are actually just talking about birds .

 

[Steam]

yay namesearch

 

[junebug]

good thing i wasn't here to discuss the cario-weegee matchup.

how to lose imo

 

[phi1ny3]

Didn't you win that set?

 

[culexus・wau]

lol.

<3 june

 

[junebug]

Didn't you win that set?

shush! no one remembers that.

 

[culexus・wau]

real talk whenever I see Seagull man post I think of the /cgl/-tan

this is sorta bothersome.

 

[Seagull Joe]

^^

*Has no idea what that is*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah go ahead an discuss I'll have my thoughts up in a sec.

@Junebug: Yeah, Luigi is...uggg.

 

[Arrows]

Gimp us, try to jab cancel into forward b cg
Powershield lasers, don't try to outcamp us...

I'll think of more later, I'm not that good with the mu

 

[Ishiey]

I definitely chatted about some people about the MU in the Lucario IRC thing a while back... don't have much new to say besides that, but I'll help out with what I can

Gimping... I don't see Lucario gimping Wolf too often but I suppose it's possible. Might not be that easy or the best idea. Learn to intercept Wolf's sideB with your nair + SDI out of upB and dair us ;D Wolf can kinda gimp Lucario, but the bigger issue is having Wolf rack up damage while edgeguarding imo.

Jab cancels are the same old same old. If you tech our dthrow in place, I'm preeetty sure Wolf gets a guaranteed jab from experience. Frame data says you should PS it but I had someone tech in place a few times in a row and hold shield right afterwards, always got hit, idk... maybe it depends on how high your % is, but yeah. Aura sphere doesn't come into play much from my experience, it can be a hassle in certain situations but everything else Lucario can do is usually more worthwhile I'd say.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gimp us, try to jab cancel into forward b cg
Powershield lasers, don't try to outcamp us...

I'll think of more later, I'm not that good with the mu

Before I post my thoughts, Side B CG doesn't work, but he does have an Up throw CG on Wolf.

 

[culexus・wau]

Things that make the MU easier for us if you learn.

- Hit his foot when he bairs with your disjoints, makes it waaaaaaay less "gdlk" in air to air zoning, its a lot more vulnerable while rising as opposed to landing.

- Keep a string going once you hit wolf, he can't really break out of our strings with anything besides reflector.

- Trade AS with blaster shots.

- SDI Fsmash and Dacus

- Tech Dthrow until like.... when we're 120 or so, at that point imo its better to be forced offstage [even at such an angle we have no trouble making it back] rather then risk wolf getting a random smash off.
to each their own however, I think lucario's tech roll is hella slow and easy to react to which is why I normally do this, but if you think you can get away with it go for it.

- DI Bair up up up up up, this move like.. shouldn't kill you in most circumstances.

- Bait Reflector etc.

Not much to say besides that.

also beware flashy wolf tricks :> these mostly involve sideB ledge cancels lol there was a video ircc

 

[phi1ny3]

Don't get hit by reflector -> dsmash. Shouldn't work, but people still get hit by it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shine -> Dsmash works over the ledge when Lucario doesn't land on the ground. Other than that aerial shine -> AAA always works.

I really don't have much experience against Lucario [against good one's at least; no such thing in europe] so my advice is probably going to be a bit generic. All I know is that Lucario doesn't have the best OoS options to punish things like spaced ftilt, let alone our aerials. If Wolf likes to approach with rising bair you can crouch below it and catch his landing with utilt. Against falling bair you might be able to walk back -> fsmash ... you may not punish bair often with it but it's a good way keep Wolf out of his preferred zone.
As long as you're not predictable with it feel free to use your roll ... it's way better in this match-up than your shield or your spotdodge and it's a really annoying tool against Wolf's spacing and zoning game. I think Wolf is better off in this match-up if he plays a strong ground game than to mainly approach via the air.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

DI FSmash up too.

What annoys me most about this MU is... I want to always punish his BAirs, but its not always easy. Also Wolf's autocanceled FAirs are annoying too..

How the heck do you approach Wolf without putting yourself at a huge risk to get punished for like anything?

Wolf has an easier time dealing with a Lucario below him than one in the air above him imo.

 

[D. Disciple]

Walk towards him.

 

[culexus・wau]

^ this lol

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I wonder if we could shield DI + SDI grab his DSmash...

 

[D. Disciple]

Yes we can, hence why I said walk towards him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I did ask them to come over here, so my input.

Wolf is not someone I'd take lightly.

Ok, if you get a grab early on, Upthrow CG, but remember you can't start it too late if you don;t get it staled early enough because stale is partly why he can CG him to 38%. Some Lucario's seem to forget this and go for a Dthrow/Brthow when they get an early grab, it's free damage don't forget it.

His spacing is better than I originally thought a couple months ago.

His bair is defiantly difficult to punish, like Flamey said it's easier to punish rising ones rather than landing ones in most cases.

I learned the hard way why teching Wolf's Dthrow can be a really really bad idea. I've been hit by Dsmash when teching towards him, if I tech in place I either eat a jab or a Dsmash, Dsmash is lower in %. When I tech away I've taken a DACUS when I got read. Mix up tech and no tech with it.

Is fair's hitbox is really long, I think it's as long as Marth's fair and kills in the air. Which is I we gotta be careful in the air with spacing.

Here's a wierd thing I didn't know but I think works, if Lucario gets air released by Wolf it's free sweetspotted Side B. So I'd learn how to not get released in the air, it's not guaranteed unless we are over the side of a platform or we hit jump to get out. Probably only works on some stages and situations but hey it's worth stating at least to be wary of, since I'd rather not people get hit by something super situational if they don't know about it.

I don't think Lucario should be getting gimped or even Wolf if he's smart about it. People do think out gimp game is ok, it's decent at best. If either character gets read off stage when going low, Lucario will be shine gimped if he tries to jump out, and Wolf will get Fair stringed.

Frigate is Lucario's best stage in this MU, imo. Wolf doesn't have to fear Cruise or other stages because Lucario isn't that good there or on other stages like Brinstar. Castle Siege is a plus for what it does for Lucario, FD's lack of platforms is a great addition to this match-up removing them makes this match-up a bit easier. Frigate is the go to stage for Lucario. Lylat is not as good against Wolf as people think it is, if people learn how to avoid the stage tilts with Wolf he stops being bad here and starts being a pro for him.

For banning something on Wolf, Battlefield just straight up battlefield. I think the layout and the tricks he can do here are much harder to deal with compared to every other stage in the game.

50:50 imo.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Wolf is an interesting MU.

Get FAir happy and you'll get raaaapppppeeeeddd.

His recovery is predictable, yet unpredictable because of the tricks he can do with it. Hmmm....

Is there anything Wolf can do when we decide to shield near the ledge while he is hanging on the ledge? We might be able to hit him out of anything he does then... including ledgehop blasters, scarring, etc.

I love Lylat against Wolf. We live longer there and the tilts can sometimes mess up autocanceled FAirs, plus it can mess up his camping game a little.. Well for the most part... Anyone who typically lands on any of Lylat's platforms gets *****.

 

[Steam]

if we shield a scarred sideB at the ledge, we'll get pushed onto the ledge unless we shield SDI. but the hit is so weak...

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Are we gonna continue this or is it dead? If not I'd like to talk about ZSS if no one minds.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well with the BBR MU chart, we should work on what we don't agree with probably.

IMO, of course.

 

[Steam]

Marth, GW probably...

these numbers wound up being stronger than I anticipated. or maybe I'm just looking at MKs numbers too much

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think G&W beats Lucario more solidly than anyone realizes at the moment. If you read my data on G&W's D-throw, you'll see why.

 

[Browny]

Well its a good thing that what you think often has absolutely no correlation to what happens in real life then

 

[A2ZOMG]

Real life sucks. And most people are bad at this game. Doesn't mean people can't improve.

And your character most likely gets bodied by G&W because G&W is a better character with silly options that happen to work on Lucario. Your response? I'm teaching your players to learn what options the opposition has. You have nothing better to do than to attack me personally because you don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

[Steam]

what does GW get for free on reaction then?

Besides most of us don't even think GW beats us. It's generally even or in slight luc favor if you ask people here.

edit: and it seems like as the Metagame evolves, more characters get silly options that work on lucario, and we lose ours.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W can cover Lucario's TECHROLL with buffered D-tilt (he can do the same with Oil Panic as well).

Let's put this in perspective. D-tilt is REALLY good in the Snake matchup because on hit it puts Snake in a horrible position where he's easy to F-air edgeguard.

Lucario not only is lighter than Snake, he's equipped with an inferior recovery.

Generally speaking, G&W outdoes Lucario in the air. On the ground, G&W wins in close range due to his better Jab and D-tilt. Midrange Lucario mostly has walls, which basically are meant to punish commitments, so most of the stuff Lucario does in midrange hinges on his opponent making mistakes.

So basically it's actually much easier for G&W to kill Lucario when all he is trying to do is win in close range and get Lucario offstage with a D-tilt, so that Lucario can be then edgeguarded with F-air.

If Lucario tries to get cheeky and DIs towards center stage to avoid getting sent offstage by D-tilt, G&W could always just simply techchase with F-air. Though buffered D-tilt is still free damage if G&W picked the right side.

 

[Steam]

or you could DI the Dtilt down and tech the stage.

or not techroll all the time because GW has to buffer that for it to work and GW doesn't get anything major guranteed if luc doesn't techroll.

and LMAO Lucario has a worse recovery than snake. Snake wishes he had our recovery... Snake's upB is better but that's not everything

GW doesn't really outdo luc in the air. He outspaces us in the air. all of GWs stuff is really laggy in some fashion and generally bad at covering him