Smash 4 Speculation Chart [WE UPDATE NOW]

[Deleted member]

As much as Ridley should be in, what really sets him apart from just being another Bowser/Charizard?

 

[FlareHabanero]

As much as Ridley should be in, what really sets him apart from just being another Bowser/Charizard?

Being purple, running an army of morons, and liking to wear maid outfits.

 

[Deleted member]

As much as Ridley should be in, what really sets him apart from just being another Bowser/Charizard?

Bowser can't fly.

Charizard lacks the proper aerial dominance that would suit Ridley who I've yet to see fight completely grounded.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser runs and army of morons and Charizard can be purple in G/S/C.
Maid outfits, though? Yeah, Ridley's unique in that regard. I hear he also wears shota clothes...

 

[wildvine47]

>Adam
>important

I'm sorry, but who?

Major character in Other M and Fusion, primary part of the plot of both, has a pretty big potential to reappear down the road, taught Samus most of what she knows, acted as her father after the Chozo died, need I go on?

He's one hell of a lot more important than Higgs is, and yet Higgs managed to make it onto this chart. If you're gonna have Higgs up there, Adam ought to be as well.

I realize Adam's not a well liked character, but to say that Higgs is more important than he is is just flat out wrong. And in terms of popularity, they're both pretty obscure outside of smaller circles like the group here, with Higgs's popularity mostly coming from his memetic phrases. I'm not denying that he has actual fans, but a large group of them likely only support him because "lel remember mi guy".

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser can't fly.

Charizard lacks the proper aerial dominance that would suit Ridley who I've yet to see fight completely grounded.

By "completely grounded", you're referring to fighting without going in the air once, right? It may not count for much, but Meta Ridley is grounded once his wings malfunction in Prime 1. His fight in Other M is also primarily ground-based for an inversion of previous fights (aside from Omega Ridley's fight in Prime 3; he's primarily grounded for the fight as well).
Outside of the typical "you attack, I attack" system that the Pokémon games have, Charizard pretty much is an aerial combatant in the same vein. This is especially true in the anime whenever Charizard fights for the most part. Even against grounded opponents like Poliwrath, Entei, and Blastoise.

However, what they have in common (or at least what Ridley will most likely end up, since he's not exactly playable yet) that Bowser also shares is that they are all big lumbering beasts of power that trade general attack speed with attack strength. They carry the same archtype.

 

[Deleted member]

Major character in Other M and Fusion, primary part of the plot of both, has a pretty big potential to reappear down the road, taught Samus most of what she knows, acted as her father after the Chozo died, need I go on?

He's one hell of a lot more important than Higgs is, and yet Higgs managed to make it onto this chart. If you're gonna have Higgs up there, Adam ought to be as well.

I realize Adam's not a well liked character, but to say that Higgs is more important than he is is just flat out wrong. And in terms of popularity, they're both pretty obscure outside of smaller circles like the group here, with Higgs's popularity mostly coming from his memetic phrases. I'm not denying that he has actual fans, but a large group of them likely only support him because "lel remember mi guy".

Ahh, well I agree that there are a lot of strange choices on this chart. But, real talk, Adam Malkovich isn't getting in Smash any time in the next century.

The only viable choice for a Metroid rep at this point is Ridley. Even Dark Samus is a total shot in the dark, as Nintendo retconned the Prime series out of existence, while giving up their right brain to charity as well it seems.

Still though, calling Adam important and likely to show up again is blasphemous. I'd be glad if that name was never mentioned again, while Other M is forgotten by everyone working at Nintendo, as it is the aborted baby of the series no one should talk about.

 

[Deleted member]

By "completely grounded", you're referring to fighting without going in the air once, right? It may not count for much, but Meta Ridley is grounded once his wings malfunction in Prime 1. His fight in Other M is also primarily ground-based for an inversion of previous fights (aside from Omega Ridley's fight in Prime 3; he's primarily grounded for the fight as well).
Outside of the typical "you attack, I attack" system that the Pokémon games have, Charizard pretty much is an aerial combatant in the same vein. This is especially true in the anime whenever Charizard fights for the most part. Even against grounded opponents like Poliwrath, Entei, and Blastoise.

However, what they have in common (or at least what Ridley will most likely end up, since he's not exactly playable yet) that Bowser also shares is that they are all big lumbering beasts of power that trade general attack speed with attack strength. They carry the same archtype.

Yeah, but in the Smash canon, Ridley doesn't even touch the ground. I'd be fine with that tbh.

But fine, we can have it your way. Cut Red along with Charizard and the other two Pokemon, and give us superior Ridley instead. Charizard isn't even a Dragon (stupid Fire/Flying bull**** type). People want a Fire type Pokemon, they can have Arcanine instead (who btw, WHY ISN'T HE A POKEBALL POKEMON???), Gary Mother****ing Oak and his Girth approve.

 

[Deleted member]

In "Smash canon" Ridley is too big.

 

[FalKoopa]

Cut Charizard?
Blasphemy.

 

[wildvine47]

Ahh, well I agree that there are a lot of strange choices on this chart. But, real talk, Adam Malkovich isn't getting in Smash any time in the next century.

The only viable choice for a Metroid rep at this point is Ridley. Even Dark Samus is a total shot in the dark, as Nintendo retconned the Prime series out of existence, while giving up their right brain to charity as well it seems.

Still though, calling Adam important and likely to show up again is blasphemous. I'd be glad if that name was never mentioned again, while Other M is forgotten by everyone working at Nintendo, as it is the aborted baby of the series no one should talk about.

I agree with the sentiment that Other M is a bad game, and I would love for it to fade out of memory, but I personally think Adam has much much more untapped potential if the right developers got their hands on a Metroid title. And for a character who has definitely made his impact on the series, for better or for worse, I'd be willing to give him a second shot in a game that doesn't have ****-tacular written all over it. Let Retro or some other competent developer have a whack at him and I think he can be a much better character in a game that takes place before his death in Other M. Hell, if they decide to one day do like, a co-op Wii-U Metroid, he could be the second player, despite my common sense telling me that that would never happen.

As for his chances, I don't find him very likely either, as Ridley and even Dark Samus are leagues ahead of him in terms of potential and chances. My only beef is just the presence of Higgs on this chart for "likely characters" when Adam far exceeds him and his chances in all areas but popularity. If Higgs gets removed from the list, I'll be A-OK, but while he's still up there, Adam ought to be as well.

As an aside, how often exactly is this roster updated/changed around? And are there any planned drops/additions so far?

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that people like Higgs and not Adam is enough to show that Higgs stands the better chance between the two.
Higgs was essentially the closest thing the series ever had to a sidekick; Adam was just an authority figure that screwed the player over.
Higgs can appear in future games; Adam can't (or at least not in a physical body).

With Sakurai wanting Metroid to have another character for Brawl (and settled for Zero Suit Samus because by July 2005, Prime Hunters didn't come out to influence a playable character choice, and there wasn't really demand for a particular non-playable character in Japan. Not even Ridley.), and him having much more options than he did now, he'd look at who would have more of an appeal. And while really, anyone that isn't Ridley at this point is second-rate, between Anthony and Adam, people would rather see the former.

 

[Starcutter]

"Smash canon"

wait... is that really a thing?

 

[Deleted member]

Hence the quotations.

But in seriousness, there would be a "Smash canon" if future games use the World of Trophies locale from the SSE and continue off of that story.

 

[wildvine47]

The fact that people like Higgs and not Adam is enough to show that Higgs stands the better chance between the two.
Higgs was essentially the closest thing the series ever had to a sidekick; Adam was just an authority figure that screwed the player over.
Higgs can appear in future games; Adam can't (or at least not in a physical body).

With Sakurai wanting Metroid to have another character for Brawl (and settled for Zero Suit Samus because by July 2005, Prime Hunters didn't come out to influence a playable character choice, and there wasn't really demand for a particular non-playable character in Japan. Not even Ridley.), and him having much more options than he did now, he'd look at who would have more of an appeal. And while really, anyone that isn't Ridley at this point is second-rate, between Anthony and Adam, people would rather see the former.

Are we really going to go into the "popularity vs. importance" debate, because if that's the case I guess Fawful is as good as confirmed given his popularity then, right? I'll go into that a bit later.

A sidekick? Please. He only had a few lines of dialogue with Samus throughout the entire game, and spent about half the game "dead" without any mention up until his return later. He was a secondary character, only slightly above the level of the other Federation soldiers on Adam's team. On the other hand, Adam, up until his own death, was both a continuously present character in the gameplay via the coms, but also a constant influence of Samus's decisions throughout the game. Even afterwards, he was important enough for Samus to return to the Bottle Ship to get his helmet. Add all of this to his role in Fusion as the computer, and you have a character who is crucial to the plots of the two narrative-driven entries in the series.

As for his chances of future appearances, I've gone over this a number of times but seeing as how it's obviously not been seen, I'll say it again. The Metroid series is not a series released in the order of the in-series timeline. The games jump all over the timeline in terms of setting. Not as much as the Zelda series, but enough that it'd be very simple and even plausible for another Metroid game to be released that occurs before Other M, at a time when Adam would still have a physical body. And again, considering his role in the series, and even according to supposed events mentioned in Other M, there have been times before Other M where Adam and Samus have worked side by side. Is it really too hard to believe that a future Metroid game could potentially be set before Other M, and that it could feature the human version of Adam?

And with regards to Sakurai's choices for a Metroid rep, I am in agreement that Ridley both outclasses and outprioritizes all other possibilities, with Dark Samus being the only other character worth mentioning, but the idea that Sakurai would add another Metroid character after Ridley based only upon popularity is a little ridiculous. For all of the Smash Bros. games so far, only one character has ever been added based on popularity alone and that was Sonic. No other character will likely EVER reach Sonic's demand, and even then, Sonic was only added a whole two years after the rest of the characters, meaning that not even his popularity qualified him for Sakurai's initial roster. Yes, fan demand is a factor, but compared to everything else a character needs for inclusion, it's likely one of the last things considered.

If popularity was such a massive factor, then we would have had Krystal instead of Wolf, seeing as her fanbase was far more vocal than Wolf's was. In fact, Krystal vs. Wolf quite neatly mirrors Higgs vs. Anthony in terms of what they have going for them.

Krystal/Higgs
Higher amount of popularity/requests
Secondary attribute that adds significantly to their popularity (Krystal's sex appeal and Higgs's memetic status)
Function as a "sidekick" to the main character
Originated in games often seen as the black sheep of their series (Starfox Adventures and Other M)

and on the other hand we have

Wolf/Adam
Not as popular/avidly requested among fans
Somewhat antagonistic relationship with the main character
Overall importance to the series
Prior veterans within their series
Originated in more "traditional" titles (Starfox 64 and Fusion)

And come Brawl's release, hey presto, Wolf was added to the game while Krystal wasn't, and despite people's outcry against it both before his reveal and afterwards, eventually people realized that Wolf truly was the better choice for a rep. I believe that the same issue is happening right now between Higgs vs. Adam, albeit on a much smaller scale and with much smaller chances for either. Right now Higgs is going to be the popular choice, but if SSB4 releases and Adam is playable and Higgs is not, I understand that there will be a lot of yelling and screaming and anger, but I also think that eventually people will realize that Adam was the more logical choice, just as everyone did with Wolf.

wow that ended up being waaaaaaaaaay longer than I intended. As a final closing remark, I am not arguing that Adam is a definite inclusion nor am I even saying he has a good chance. I firmly believe the Metroid roster in Smash 4 will consist of only Samus/ZSS and Ridley. All I am arguing is that Adam is a much more logical rep than Higgs is, and that if Higgs is considered likely enough to make this speculation chart, Adam ought to be on it as well.

 

[Starcutter]

A LOT of stuff

Bravo, you did good.

 

[Deleted member]

Stuff

The fact you think Krystal was more popular than Wolf kills your entire argument.
In Japan (where it mainly matters), Wolf was pretty much one of the top requested characters. Krystal was nowhere even close.
In US, the Krystal fanbase was certainly louder than the Wolf fanbase, but the Wolf fanbase was in fact larger. They mainly kept to themselves because every time they'd try to raise support, the boisterous Krystal nuts would attack them.

 

[Deleted member]

Hate to double post, but hold off on any of the hints of characters being scrapped; you guys are going to be in for a real treat that's going to take quite a bit of time.

 

[wildvine47]

The fact you think Krystal was more popular than Wolf kills your entire argument.
In Japan (where it mainly matters), Wolf was pretty much one of the top requested characters. Krystal was nowhere even close.
In US, the Krystal fanbase was certainly louder than the Wolf fanbase, but the Wolf fanbase was in fact larger. They mainly kept to themselves because every time they'd try to raise support, the boisterous Krystal nuts would attack them.

So one isolated part of my argument that I made a mistake on, based on my observations, invalidates all of the other points that are completely unrelated?

Regardless of my mistake regarding Krystal and Wolf, the fact still stands by that the only "advantage" Higgs has over Adam is popularity, and that it would take a hell of a lot more clamoring for Higgs for his now-minimal popularity to make a legitimate difference between their chances.

 

[Nu~]

You don't say...

Anyway, real talk, you got a Pacman moveset for me?
I've been looking for a good one for months now...

Pac-Man
Speed: 7/10
Power: 8/10
Traction: 10/10
Weight: 6/10
Can also wall Jump


B-Pellet Gun - Pac-Man shoots pac-dots at the opponent at fast speeds. It you charge It for 3 seconds it becomes a Fruit and does high damage and knockback. 6-20% damage. From Pac-in-Time

Side B: Rev Roll- Pac-Man charges up a run in place and like Ike's side B, you are fully charged after about 3 seconds and you roll into the opponent after you release B. Has decent knockback like Ike's side B. But, like in pacman world 2 opponents running at pac-man while Pac-Man rolls toward them, is not only blasted away with high knock back, but dazed for 3 seconds as if they were hit with a deku nut. (Does 17% if fully charged.) From Pac-Man world 2

Down B: Butt Bounce- Pac-Man jumps up and bounces back down with his...Butt. Can be use 3 times in a row after the first bounce. Meteor smashes in mid-air, 3rd hit pushes opponent away like toon link's d-air. Can be moved side to side across the whole stage. (1st hit does 9%, 2nd does 10%, and 3rd does 13%. ) From Pac-Man world 2

Up B: Red Pac-Dot- Pac-Man throws out a red pac dot and eats it. When he does a line of pac-dots form in mid air. You can control where the pac-dots turn. It can also latch onto the stage. Pac-Man eats the dots as fast as a fire fox's speed. Opponents can be hurt if they touch Pac-Man's mouth while eating. From Pac-Man world 2

or...

Up-B: Magic Boots- Pac-man gets 3 extra jumps that are higher than normal ones. from Pac land



Forward smash- Chomp: I believe this should be his smash instead of B move so hat way, we keep the iconic chomp, and give Pac-Man a useful projectile. also, it protects from having to give him a boring punch. (15% uncharged 30% fully charged.) very high knockback. From original pac-man

Up Smash- Uppercut:

do I even need words to explain this iconic jump? jumps up like Sonic's up-smash but does an uppercut instead. (12% uncharged 22% fully charged.) average knockback. from world series


Down Smash-Pellet Wave: This was hard, but I finally got it. Pac-Man hits the ground and a small circle of pellets waves around him that do damage on contact. It might sound lame,(or creative in my eyes) but it was hard to make. cut me some slack. (14% uncharged 18% fully charged.) average knockback. From...my imagination

AAA: Pac-man throws a left hook, right hook, then a jab that sends out a small shock wave in front of him. (4%, 6%, then 9%.)
example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UFMBujNRfs 5:12 - 5:15. From Pac-Man world 3

U-air: Pac-Man does a flip kick with skates on and does slicing damage, like a blade. (does 12%)From Pac-man world 2.

D-air: Pac-Man does a swinging punch underneath him, like marth's down air only with a fist instead of blade. (does 13%) Meteor smashes.

F-air- Pac-man takes both fists and smashes opponents. Acts like ike's(it doesn't meteor smash) 11% damage.

B-air - Pac-man does a backwards roundhouse kick like fox. (10% damage)

N-air - pac-man spins around in a circle and hurts opponents. I lost ideas for this one XD. (does 6% on first hit, 1% on any other frame but the first.)

Z- air - pac man uses his grapple from the old pac-in-time game. Only the tip does damage (5%)

F-tilt - pac man does a simple front kick (7%)

U-tilt.- pac man does a small headbutt upwards. Can juggle. ( 8%)

D-tilt - pacman does two floor kicks.( 4% first, 3% second)


F- throw - pacman throws opponent up and elbows them forward. (does 9%)

D-throw- pacman throws opponent down and hammers thwm with his hammer from pac-in-time. (does 12 damage) does no knockback like mr.g&w's down throw.

U-throw - pacman throws opponent up and flip kicks them (8% damage)

B-throw- pacman tosses opponent in a backwards overhead toss then shoots them with pellet gun (10% damage)

Up- taunt - pacman looks around amazed like the pac man world 2 idle animation

Down taunt- pacman's eyes turn to x's and he spins around and fall. Pacman death music plays. Death animation in the world series.

Side-taunt- pacman throws and kicks a pac dot around like a soccer ball then eats it. From pacman world series.

Star KO animation: pac-man has eyes like in his down taunt and the pac-man death animation plays.

First jump is similar to up smash, and second jump is the magic boots from pac land (if the Up-B move is the red pac dot instead)

I know that his side B and down B seem like they are copies of other moves (the poor Yoshi, bowser, and sonic clone arguments) but these are iconic moves he has from his world series. Saying why use pacman if you can use yoshi is like saying why use falco if there's fox or why use bowser when there's charizard.

 

[Deleted member]

@Pacman9

Well, I really have to commend you for putting so much effort into it. I'm still not conviced, but you certainly did a good job. Congrats.

Go post that moveset over at MYM (Make Your Move), it should be the in the Smash 4 General subforum. They'll give you some good pointers on making it better.

 

[Deleted member]

So one isolated part of my argument that I made a mistake on, based on my observations, invalidates all of the other points that are completely unrelated?

Regardless of my mistake regarding Krystal and Wolf, the fact still stands by that the only "advantage" Higgs has over Adam is popularity, and that it would take a hell of a lot more clamoring for Higgs for his now-minimal popularity to make a legitimate difference between their chances.

Adam has nothing. So the fact that Higgs has something over him is a lot already.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Anthony is actually liked. (lol at everyone calling him Higgs)

Adam is for the most part despised at this point.

That should speak for itself.

 

[AEMehr]

Hate to double post, but hold off on any of the hints of characters being scrapped; you guys are going to be in for a real treat that's going to take quite a bit of time.

Fun adventure time for me.

yay

 

[FalKoopa]

As I see it, Adam has one problem: He fails one of Sakurai's basic criteria, that the inclusion of a character should make people want to play the game.

 

[Banjodorf]

As I see it, Adam has one problem: He fails one of Sakurai's basic criteria, that the inclusion of a character should make people want to play the game.

I'm actually going to agree to this. While this is incredibly subjective, I see alot of comedic value in a character like Anthony, while a character like Adam seems to exist to undermine Samus' character and provide nothing but a voice in her head.

Sorry, I utterly despise what Other M did to Samus' character and since Adam was most of that, and has no other redeeming qualities, there's really nothing going for him, especially since the H-Man is more popular.

 

[wildvine47]

I guess since apparently his more important role to the series counts for nothing, I appear to be outnumbered here.

I'm willing to throw in the towel for now and back off. I still think Adam has enough of a chance to qualify for this list, but it's a community roster, and eh, you can't win em all.

Taking this in another direction, any thoughts on Rayman or Magnus's possibilities?

 

[FalKoopa]

Magnus should be on the chart IMO.

Rayman has a major obstacle of being unpopular in Japan. So I'd say No.

 

[Deleted member]

Magnus used to be on the chart, but was removed for generally being minor when compared to even Medusa and Dark Pit. Though there may be a chance he'll come back.
As for Rayman, no 3rd Party character that's not from Metal Gear, Sonic, (though those two series may have theirs taken away until we know of Snake's and Sonic's fate) or Namco gets on the chart without special reasoning. Rayman has none to speak of.

 

[Deleted member]

I REALLY hate to double post again, but I need to get this done as we have less than 5 weeks to have this set up before the chart shouldn't be given drastic edits anymore.

First off, what I plan on doing is giving each individual series their own mini-chart instead of making one huge one. (Though some will be combined, such as newer series and Retros)
So characters that previously wouldn't be on the chart for whatever reason can get in these new ones. Though whether they do or not is up to you people.
I will first start by going around suggestions to add to the chart for each individual chart one by one (though some will not have suggestions until after they are posted).
Also, note that Veterans will also be included on the charts, as to check them off when they are confirmed (note to AEM: Brawl's Veterans must use their Brawl artwork; scrapped Veterans such as Mewtwo and Roy can use whatever). Also, most Assists and Bosses will be included if they are reasonable (meaning Assists like Andross and Metroid will not be included).

First off is the Mario series.

Absolutely confirmed:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Dr. Mario
Yoshi (If we do not separate the Mario series and Yoshi series)
Petey Piranha
Waluigi
Toad
Bowser Jr.
King Boo
Paper Mario
Geno

Considerations:
Daisy
Rosalina
E. Gadd
Fawful
Kamek (If we do not separate the Mario series and Yoshi series)
Baby Bowser (If we do not separate the Mario series and Yoshi series)


Your job now is to bring up any further considerations and in this case, whether or not Yoshi should be a part of Mario's chart or have his own.

 

[FalKoopa]

Among those on the "Considerations" list, I'd suggest E. Gadd (due to Luigi's Mansion 2), Rosalina (SMG2 still isn't THAT old yet) and Fawful (just in case he gets some role in Dream Team as well)

Besides, I'm not sure why King Boo is on the "Confirmed" list.

 

[Deleted member]

The Considerations are characters I'm already planning on adding, though not fully confirmed yet.
What you're supposed to do is suggest others to be added to it.

Why King Boo is confirmed is because he's already on the chart.
Mostly everyone on the chart already is staying.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh, I see. In that case, I can only think of Birdo and Baby Mario.

EDIT: Also, I think Yoshi series can stay within Mario series. There are only 4 possible canditates. Though they should probably be highlighted with a different colour.

 

[Deleted member]

Regardless of series, they will all be colored just the same.
Otherwise when Retros come....hoo boy will that be a rainbow of torture.

 

[Starcutter]

Regardless of series, they will all be colored just the same.
Otherwise when Retros come....hoo boy will that be a rainbow of torture.

why not make all the retros the same colour? oh well. it doesn't matter.

 

[Deleted member]

why not make all the retros the same colour? oh well. it doesn't matter.

Regardless of series, they will all be colored just the same.

 

[Hoots]

Personally, I think Yoshi should be its own franchise. It will probably only have several characters, but there's no reason to not adhere to the unique icons for uniformity's sake.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, so 1 in favor of keeping them separate, 1 in favor of putting them together.

Current suggestions to add to Consideration list: Birdo, Baby Mario (if Yoshi is with Mario).

 

[Pazzo.]

With the new Yoshi game coming up, I would wait until we see if there are any other important characters in the 'Yarn' Yoshi game until one would put him in the Mario chart. Just say'in.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm in favor of separating the Mario and Yoshi series considering that Sakurai does the same thing.