Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Yeah, but the Golden Mittans doesn't make Link's sword attacks stronger. When you get those gauntles, you won't kill normal enemies any faster with it, so Mewtwo could very well tank Link's sword slashes. Especially with Bulk Up.

Link's Ice Arrows don't freeze Ganondorf or any bosses so... Light Arrows wouldn't be so strong against Mewtwo cause he isn't evil perse. All monsters in Zelda are created by curses from Ganon, so that's why the Light Arrows are so effective against them.

Even if Ganondorf would be stronger by default, Mewtwo's Calm Mind or Bulk Up would eventually make Mewtwo do higher damage than Ganondorf could do. Mewtwo's accuracy is better from his moves than Ganondorf's stronger magic (which is easy dodgable by Link, who's not all too fast really) and aren't being reflected by the sword or shield.

Discussing Mewtwo's strenght again... I think your slightly underestimating him, cause Mewtwo's a very good sweeper in his games, OHKO'ing other Ubers easily with proper set up as Rayquaza, Ho-Oh and other. I doubt Link's more durable than that.

You're discussing game mechanics as if that's what makes a fight. It doesn't matter that Mewtwo is a sweeper in Pokemon because his stats are not directly translatable (is that a word?) into this fight. If it were like that than Mewtwo and Link would take turns attacking each other or every time Link activated a spell time would freeze. Even better when you pull out the Ocarina, time freezes, so Link would hold the Ocarina in one hand and stab mewtwo to death with the other.

The Golden Gauntlets not increasing damage is another game mechanic, if every time you fought an enemy after you got them and it actually factored into the fight you'd have a full colony on the moon of Ganon's minions and the game would lose all challenge. I know the gameplay is quite dated for OoT and all but Link is meant to be a very fast and powerful fighter. There are just some limitations that came with the N64 hardware.

Look to canonical happenings to draw from when you discuss one character fighting another. With game mechanics included like you are doing for Mewtwo OoT Link would brutally slaughter any other contender without a fight.

 

[Technologikall]

Actually I think that Mewtwo will not lose. Even if he cannot win: Selfdestruct = probably GG.

Selfdestruct is INSANELY strong, and Mewtwo is like 50 times faster than Link. Anyone know of a way that Link can avoid this?

Offcourse, it KOs Mewtwo as well. So a draw is the best Link can get unless he can avoid this strong and fast explosion. But I've only played a few Link games so maybe some Zelda fan knows something about Link that I don't. =P

 

[payasofobia]

CYNER: Isn't this a thread about game mechanics?

If we let ridiculous game mechanics like rolling health in, then we might as well include ridiculous game mechanics like golden mits not powering up Link.

Also, Mewtwo doesn't learn selfdestruct anymore as of the 4th generation:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mewtwo_(Pokémon)

 

[missingnomaster]

CYNER: Isn't this a thread about game mechanics?

Generally, most game mechanics are tossed out except for health systems. There's been a lot of controversy over game mechanics recently though, so a debate about the issue might arise soon.

 

[payasofobia]

That's kind of silly. Throwing out all game mechanics but keeping a few convenient ones is nor very adviseable. It will just make the thread devolve into flamewars and lots of contradictions.

You must go all the way to one of the extremes for it to work out. Middles will only bring hings like:



"No fair! Your characters keeps a broken game mechanic while mine loses the one game mechanic that made him good!"

"Hey! My char has huge stats! If you take them out then how are we going to know how good he is? You are nerfing him!"

etc etc etc

 

[missingnomaster]

That's kind of silly. Throwing out all game mechanics but keeping a few convenient ones is nor very adviseable.

It will just make the thread devolve into flamewars and lots of contradictions.

Considering that the matches done on the thread were done with health mechanics allowed, suddenly disallowing them would force the whole thread to be pretty much restarted.

will you give an example of the first complaint quote you brought up?

Stats are hard to deal with no matter what since they vary from games so much

 

[payasofobia]

Updated my post.


Do a fixing round after every 4 rounds.

After 4 rounds, when new knowledge, newfound abilities are found and new rules are made, fix the iffiest MUs whose results would seriously change with the new info.

If we take out the health system, the only MUs that would need fixing are the Earthbound ones and perphaps the Link ones considering he has a huge amount of health.

Maybe some others when we discover (hyphotetical example) that Yoshi has an item that makes him give birth to god and that Ike can become a tank that shoots armour piercing planets.

Considering that the matches done on the thread were done with health mechanics allowed, suddenly disallowing them would force the whole thread to be pretty much restarted.

will you give an example of the first complaint quote you brought up?

Stats are hard to deal with no matter what since they vary from games so much

Those are just examples of what could happen. It was not a stating of facts about what happened or if they will happen exactly as I said.

 

[missingnomaster]

Taking out health systems would do more than that.

Health Systems are what prevent characters from getting mutilated. Things like bullets would become a whole lot deadlier with one shot kills on almost everything.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You're discussing game mechanics as if that's what makes a fight. It doesn't matter that Mewtwo is a sweeper in Pokemon because his stats are not directly translatable (is that a word?) into this fight. If it were like that than Mewtwo and Link would take turns attacking each other or every time Link activated a spell time would freeze. Even better when you pull out the Ocarina, time freezes, so Link would hold the Ocarina in one hand and stab mewtwo to death with the other.

The Golden Gauntlets not increasing damage is another game mechanic, if every time you fought an enemy after you got them and it actually factored into the fight you'd have a full colony on the moon of Ganon's minions and the game would lose all challenge. I know the gameplay is quite dated for OoT and all but Link is meant to be a very fast and powerful fighter. There are just some limitations that came with the N64 hardware.

Look to canonical happenings to draw from when you discuss one character fighting another. With game mechanics included like you are doing for Mewtwo OoT Link would brutally slaughter any other contender without a fight.

Yeah alright that's true, but sweeping itself is a pretty good way to show how powerful a character is I think?

What your saying here makes no sence. You basically say; **** game mechanicsm yet you say Link would be able to stop time with the Ocarina and slash with his sword at the same time as a explenation of what Link could do with Zelda mechanics.

If OoT Link was so awesome, then why isn't there much change in Link's movement from OoT to TP? TP Link moves around very similair if not exact the same way at OoT Link, hence why it's a Zelda game. <_< Uhm.. yeah.

Pokemon and Zelda are actually pretty easy formulas to mix. Since Link doesn't move all to fast, you could easily imagine that say while Link aims with his bow, Mewtwo would charge up Calm Mind. When Link shoots Mewtwo and he gets hit, Mewtwo uses Recover. Link then switches his Bow for... another item he wants to use, Mewtwo attacks with Psychic. I think it's pretty simple.

Spoiler

But then again, I smoke a lot. ^^

 

[payasofobia]

Taking out health systems would do more than that.

Health Systems are what prevent characters from getting mutilated. Things like bullets would become a whole lot deadlier with one shot kills on almost everything.

This is not a Deadliest Brawler.

You can easily work this around by judging at what attacks the character has taken and how many of these attacks the character can take. Then compare these with the opposing character from dimension X's attacks and see with a little of logic if the character has previously dealt with said attacks, and how much damage it did.


Example: Link can take, at most, 5 hits from the axe of an Iron Knuckle (AKA the only kind of trained mook Link fought in OoT). What does this tell us about Link's health?

His stamina is not as high as we thought. A serious opponent, like Ike, could easily trample him in a few hits. But, he still has an unrealistic amount of health in comparison to a normal human.

Hell, you have all done this before.




Do the same for other characters, and take away blatantly broken game mechanics like rolling health.

 

[missingnomaster]

So Ness and Lucas' rolling health is the only thing you have a problem with.

Because everything else you said is pretty much how we get things done if someone bothers to try and find a comparison.

 

[payasofobia]

Yes. Take that **** away. It collides with the rest of the rules of the thread and makes for some ******** conclusions.

 

[REL38]

@Diddy

The thing is that you're assumig all of Mewtwo's abilities have no start-up lag or limitations.

Calm Mind would take a few seconds and only goes up by so much.
It only raises Special.

Recover only raises half of HP.
How much damage is Link going to deal on Mewtwo?
Mewtwo only has slightly above average Defense on both physical and special.

A sword slash can be devastating as would his elemental arrows.
Ice Arrows cold enough to freeze volcanoes?
This would hurt Mewtwo. Greatly. It will also Freeze him.

Substitute is easy to defeat. It also requires a fourth of Mewtwo's HP to dish out.
Substitute doesn't move. Any arrow can very well destroy it.
That's just lost HP.

What's guaranteeing Psychic is very damaging to Link?
He's able to take blows from Ganon. Both Physical and Magic/Energy based.

Calm Mind --> Recover --> Psychic isn't that quick or eay to perform
:/

 

[Technologikall]

Let's just pretend that the characters are true to their games, kay?

If that makes them broken, well then they are and should be. At least the title of this tread will be answered.

 

[payasofobia]

Let's just pretend that the characters are true to their games, kay?

If that makes them broken, well then they are and should be. At least the title of this tread will be answered.

Yes, but having some characters being truer to their games than others is sometimes not fair.

Anyway, I am done disscusing this. I'll disscus this MU.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

This is not a Deadliest Brawler.

You can easily work this around by judging at what attacks the character has taken and how many of these attacks the character can take. Then compare these with the opposing character from dimension X's attacks and see with a little of logic if the character has previously dealt with said attacks, and how much damage it did.


Example: Link can take, at most, 5 hits from the axe of an Iron Knuckle (AKA the only kind of trained mook Link fought in OoT). What does this tell us about Link's health?

His stamina is not as high as we thought. A serious opponent, like Ike, could easily trample him in a few hits. But, he still has an unrealistic amount of health in comparison to a normal human.

Hell, you have all done this before.


Do the same for other characters, and take away blatantly broken game mechanics like rolling health.

5 hits? were we playing the same game?

Ike? really? Ike wouldn't be able to put a dent in Link at all.

Link is not a human, he isn't even a "normal" hylian. Link's durability is ridiculously high. He is strong enough to lift a stone pillar hundreds of tons in weight and throw it very far, shattering the stone pillar on Ganon's energy field. Ganon is even stronger than that and Link can take a direct hit from Ganon and only take a small bit (two hearts) of damage.

 

[Technologikall]

Machamp can send opponents flying over the horizon and send trains flying and still Mewtwo's SpAtt is wayhigher than Machamps attack. If that doesn't say alot. Mewtwo is broken.

 

[payasofobia]

5 hits? were we playing the same game?

Ike? really? Ike wouldn't be able to put a dent in Link at all.

Link is not a human, he isn't even a "normal" hylian. Link's durability is ridiculously high. He is strong enough to lift a stone pillar hundreds of tons in weight and throw it very far, shattering the stone pillar on Ganon's energy field. Ganon is even stronger than that and Link can take a direct hit from Ganon and only take two hearts damage.

Yeah, we are playing the same game. That's the damage Iron Knuckles deal to Link in OoT in case you haven't noticed. Of course, there's still the magic barrier that raises the count to 10 hits, but still, that argument can easily be disarmed with one of Ike's abilities. But now is not the MU to disscuss that.

I am currently doing calculations to see exactly how durable is Mewtwo.

Found it for special attacks. Used this calculator:

http://www.psypokes.com/dex/damage.php

Used: http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml

As a base.

Mewtwo can survive a rend in space (spacial rend) by a Palkia with MAX special attack from a non hindering or beneficial nature. He takes between 155-184 Hp of damage from an HP of 416.

He can survive 2 and a half rends in space.


Physical stats next.


Mewtwo can survive a dragon that flies at the speed of a jet (Garchomp) rushing at him (dragon rush) at MAX stat. He takes between 140 and 165 points of damage.

He can survive 2 and a half supersonic rushes too.



Mewtwo is hardcore. He can tank pretty much anything Link throws at him.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Well if we are going to start calculating power and durability then I have an example that was put forth in much earlier debate.

This is an example of Link's strength and how much power would be behind him throwing his shield at an opponent.

ShinTwistScreamPaste wrote at 2:43 PM on Oct 16, 2009 :
Alright, in OoT:

Link threw a pillar weighing well over 1000 short tons. For purposes of being conservative, we'll call it 1000, nice and round, about 300 meters in two seconds. Now, ignoring the curved flight path, and rounding down the distance, and rounding up the time to 225 meters, and 3 seconds, gives you 75 meters per second. VERY fast, and this stone is.. 1000 tons!?

K = 1/2mv^2
m = 1000 ton short = 907184.7399995 kilogram
v = 75 meter/second = 75 meter/second

K, kinetic energy (K) = 2551457081.2486 joules


Now, apply 2551457081.2486 joules to say, a shield... How much does one weigh? Let's assume 100 pounds to be conservative.

.......__
V =/2K/M

K = 2551457081.2486 joule = 2551457081.2486 joule
m = 100 pound = 45.359236999975 kilogram

velocity (v) = 10606.601717798 meter/second

velocity (v) = 10606.601717798 meter/second
velocity (v) = 3818376618.5143 centimeter/hour
velocity (v) = 1060660.1717798 centimeter/second
velocity (v) = 3006595762.5236 foot/day
velocity (v) = 34798.562066267 foot/second
velocity (v) = 1503297881.2618 inch/hour
velocity (v) = 417582.74479521 inch/second
velocity (v) = 10.606601717798 kilometer/second
velocity (v) = 20617.584350465 knot
velocity (v) = 31.168385888329 mach sea level 15 C
velocity (v) = 916410388.41572 meter/day
velocity (v) = 23726.292317909 mile/hour
velocity (v) = 6.5906367549749 mile/second
velocity (v) = 10606601.717798 millimeter/second
velocity (v) = 3.5379815051245E-5 speed of light in vacuum
velocity (v) = 11599.520688756 yard/second

To put this in perspective-

The Navy has plans to install Electromagnetic Rail Guns on their warships. These weapons will be able to assault a target from 250 nautical miles. The Impact of which is equivalent to running a car into an object at 380 MPH and will demolish an entire building in a single hit. These guns put out 64 megajoules of power. Link's throw of the pillar is equal to 2551 Megajoules of power.

Now imagine that power behind the swing of his sword.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In Ocarina of Time, the Mirror Shield was the final shield that Link acquires in his adventure. Found in the Spirit Temple on a ledge that can only be reached by going through the temple. Unlike the Hylian Shield, the Mirror Shield has a polished surface, allowing it to reflect light. This allows Link to solve the light puzzles in the dungeon. Otherwise, the Mirror Shield acted the same except for the fact it destroyed the rocks Octoroks spat, instead of reflecting them.

The Mirror Shield also plays a part in defeating Twinrova, the boss of the Spirit Temple. When Koume and Kotake are separate, the Mirror Shield can be used to reflect - and in turn, direct to the other sister - the fire or ice beam that a sister will fire at Link. When in their combined form, the Mirror Shield can absorb Twinrova's energy, and after three of the same type of energy is absorbed, a beam of that element is fired which can stun Twinrova temporarily for a quick few slashes.

The original appearance of the Mirror Shield was a star and a moon resembling the Islamic symbol, but this was changed in later releases to the Gerudo Symbol because of this reason.

This version of the Mirror shield is one of Link's Weapons (paired with the Master Sword) in Soulcalibur II. It caused opponents to take small amounts of damage whenever they hurt Link.

Says here, Link's shield absorbs energy.

 

[PowerBomb]

Oh my god, Galekill continues to influence this thread beyond bans.

First off, Garchomp going at the speed of a jet is ridiculous. Prove that please, the Dex must be proven canon since it's basically hearsay. Prove Garchomp moves at the speed of a jet. His base speed is 102, Gengar's is 110. Gengar must obviously move at the speed of a jet.

It's ridiculous. Very ridiculous.

Link's Mirror Shield doesn't absorb everything.

EDIT: If you guys want to go by game mechanics, Link doesn't get a strength boost. Also, the calculations galekill provided aren't very reliable, considering the measurements used were non-canon and his method of calculation might be wrong.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't see anything wrong with what Galekill's doing.

 

[payasofobia]

Oh my god, Galekill continues to influence this thread beyond bans.

First off, Garchomp going at the speed of a jet is ridiculous. Prove that please, the Dex must be proven canon since it's basically hearsay. Prove Garchomp moves at the speed of a jet. His base speed is 102, Gengar's is 110. Gengar must obviously move at the speed of a jet.

It's ridiculous. Very ridiculous.

Link's Mirror Shield doesn't absorb everything.

EDIT: If you guys want to go by game mechanics, Link doesn't get a strength boost. Also, the calculations galekill provided aren't very reliable, considering the measurements used were non-canon and his method of calculation might be wrong.

Just like how ridiculous most canon stuff is. I mean, throwing a rock at the speed of sound? Ridiculous. But ridiculous is what defines this thread.

Well if we are going to start calculating power and durability then I have an example that was put forth in much earlier debate.

This is an example of Link's strength and how much power would be behind him throwing his shield at an opponent.



To put this in perspective-

The Navy has plans to install Electromagnetic Rail Guns on their warships. These weapons will be able to assault a target from 250 nautical miles. The Impact of which is equivalent to running a car into an object at 380 MPH and will demolish an entire building in a single hit. These guns put out 64 megajoules of power. Link's throw of the pillar is equal to 2551 Megajoules of power.

Now imagine that power behind the swing of his sword.

Is the Master Sword unbreakable?

 

[PowerBomb]

Just like how ridiculous most canon stuff is. I mean, throwing a rock at the speed of sound? Ridiculous, but ridiculous is what defines this thread.



Is the Master Sword unbreakable?

No idea if it is.

But the Dex needs to stop being referred too. It really jacks up the gameplay and is really just hearsay most of the time (aside from the rare *zomg it's right* moment).

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Yes the Master Sword is unbreakable, it's been around thousands of years in the hands of many of the spiritual successor heroes, been in countless battles with countless enemies and has never once broken or had a scratch on it.

How the **** is a stone pilllar going to weight more than that?

very dense materials. That ship is constructed out of particular materials and in a particular shape so that it's not so dense that it sinks. Some materials are much much more dense than others.

A small tank would probably weigh in the area of 60 tons even though it's not much bigger than a car that weighs 4 tons.

 

[payasofobia]

Oh, and 1000 tons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_ships_of_less_than_1000_tons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corvette_Aconit

This ship weights less than 1000 tons:

This one weights 500 tons:

This one weights 125 tons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/HNoMS_Hitra_(2003).jpg

How the **** is a stone pilllar going to weight more than that?

I would give it less than 100 tons.

 

[PowerBomb]

The measurements the pillar was given aren't canon. Thus, the weight isn't canon unless some accurate, canon measurements can be supplied.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not to mention the gauntlets really only gave him the ability to lift the stone pillar. There's no accounting for the fact that magic may have been involved that only applied to that pillar.

Seriously, though, Galekill's nonsense has been debunked time and time again. Stop bringing it up.

Why does this only ever happen with Link?

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

The measurements are based on Link being 6 feet tall and the stone material being black granite.

Not to mention the gauntlets really only gave him the ability to lift the stone pillar. There's no accounting for the fact that magic may have been involved that only applied to that pillar.

Seriously, though, Galekill's nonsense has been debunked time and time again. Stop bringing it up.

Why does this only ever happen with Link?

You can't be serious, the gauntlets which give a person "the strength of an army" are only super effective on giant pillars. gg

I personally have not seen it debunked. However the only reason I even brought it out was because pay is taking pokemon stats and converting them into canon durability.

 

[missingnomaster]

The measurements are based on Link being 6 feet tall and the stone material being black granite.

Except that Link is not 6 feet tall, either.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/n64-zelda/97544-i-know-how-tall-link-is.html

around 4' 10"

 

[payasofobia]

very dense materials. That ship is constructed out of particular materials and in a particular shape so that it's not so dense that it sinks. Some materials are much much more dense than others.

A small tank would probably weigh in the area of 60 tons even though it's not much bigger than a car that weighs 4 tons.

Sure, keep telling yourself that. Carbon steel has a density of 7.85 g/cm3. Diamond, the densest rock, has only 3.52 g/cm3. The density of marble, the material which the pillar looks like it is made off, 2.76 g/cm3.

That post is full of mistakes.

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm actually really curious about what Galekill would say for this matchup. He's incredibly biased for both Link and pokemon characters.

 

[REL38]

No idea if it is.

But the Dex needs to stop being referred too. It really jacks up the gameplay and is really just hearsay most of the time (aside from the rare *zomg it's right* moment).

The fact that Machamp's "unblockable" punches can be blocked by Protect?

Charizard being capable to melt boulders, but not OHKO a Probopass which is a pure Rock type?

Rampardos being able to "shatter the most durable of things upon impact", but not actually kill many Pokemon?


It's these types of Pokedex entries that make me doubt its credibility.

 

[payasofobia]

Pokemons are broken. I have an image showing you how hardcore even the weakest of them are. I will look out for it.

 

[missingnomaster]

In regards to the Pokedex: Must I bring up Dusclops again? How it can absorb any object, however large it may be?

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

1. How were those marks shown in the game?

2. "5'6.95'' is your answer. It's rounded to the nearest hundreth."

3. Cambrian Black Granite - Density: 179 pounds/cubic foot (2,874 kg/cu.m)

 

[REL38]

Pokemons are broken. I have an image showing you how hardcore even the weakest of them are. I will look out for it.

My gripes are more so with the blatant contradictions that exist with the Pokedex and gameplay.

 

[PowerBomb]

FYI: Focus Sash Endeavor Attack Ratata is not strong... It's just abuse. Like PIE.

 

[missingnomaster]

1. How were those marks shown in the game?

2. "5'6.95'' is your answer. It's rounded to the nearest hundreth."

3. Cambrian Black Granite - Density: 179 pounds/cubic foot (2,874 kg/cu.m)

1. What do you mean by that? There's lines on the wall measuring how deep you dive.

2. Where did you get that number?

 

[payasofobia]

My gripes are more so with the blatant contradictions that exist with the Pokedex and gameplay.

Yeah, but apparently, the pokedex is part of canon. Gameplay is gameplay mechanics I guess. Otherwise, Psionics would be broken.

So, I ask, should we stick with gameplay mechanics, so that way Link wouldn't get super strenght outside throwing pillars while Mewtwo is almost unnafected because I used gameplay mechanics to tell how tough he is, or do we get flexible and Mewtwo is broken as **** because of psionics?