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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

PK-ow!

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Remember guys, no matter the title, Link has only wielded moderate level magic. He doesn't directly channel the power of Gods, not even angels, avatars, or elementals. He has, at best, spells, and enchanted equipment.

He just has equipment. He is an adept, athletic Hylian, well-equipped, and adaptable.

Mewtwo has powers.


He just buffs himself to where he's beyond the greatest LoZ power gamers. Link only ever succeeds because he faces large, bulky enemies, where cleverness, strong defense, and a few projectiles will win the day where less COURAGEOUS (:psycho: ) adventurers would fail.

Mewtwo can just try moving fast, for Goddesses forbid Link acquire a tool to let him fight something fast. :ohwell:


If Diddy Kong is on the mark, and I think it's indisputable that he is, Link's only theoretical chance would be to try to finish Mewtwo fast. Who knows what 'Pokemon time' translates into?
What is this embargo technique? That seems to seal it. Link's only chance was projectiles to hunt Mewtwo down. If he just has his sword, he wouldn't even be able to catch up to Mewtwo.

Link suffers hitstun. Mewtwo does not. <_<
 

PowerBomb

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Mewtwo suffers hitstun in 3-D games.

Mewtwo can buff himself up to infinity and would still get OHKO'd by a special attack. Of course, depends which user. CSKyogreSpout, maybe.
 

Falcon88

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Link is powerful with the Master Sword, but Mewtwo uses Recover every time Link hits, and Link's weapons wouldn't cause enough damage to make up for it. Not to mention Mewtwo has psychic powers and is fast enough to dodge most of Link's attacks. Sadly, given Mewtwo's speed and psycho abilities, Link has a slim chance. :/ Maybe Zelda could come in and stun Mewtwo with a Light Arrow? :p
 

PowerBomb

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If Mewtwo doesn't evade Link's sword, Link can lop his head off. Or stab him.

Forget health mechanics, if you're stabbed in the head, heart, or swiped by a sword, you're going to be mutilated.
 

PowerBomb

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This is not real life.

mechanics are here for a reason.
Calculate the damage or GTFO.

XD
Donbstoopid.

Raizen said SOME realism is established here to prevent some really stupid things from happening. Like a bullet to the head, for example. Mewtwo, with his game mechanics, should be able to survive that. But we know that once there is a hole in someone's brain, it cannot function properly (kind of, depends where the bullet goes).

Mewtwo's head still flies off as he has like...no neck.
 

Salem

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Donbstoopid.

Raizen said SOME realism is established here to prevent some really stupid things from happening. Like a bullet to the head, for example. Mewtwo, with his game mechanics, should be able to survive that. But we know that once there is a hole in someone's brain, it cannot function properly (kind of, depends where the bullet goes).

Mewtwo's head still flies off as he has like...no neck.
He said some, he did not say what is realistic here and there, he did not say it anywhere, or the least explain what is.
Please don't try to choose for him.
 

_clinton

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Mewtwo is a high level psychokinetic psychic who is a clone of the 1st pokemon ever (or something like that) but with stronger ability than that pokemon as well...that in general says some things because Psychokinesis is in general already one of the most powerful things you'd ever read about when it comes to fictional powers...

As far as how high of a level of skill Mewtwo is at...it is at even levels with the various pokemon "gods" of his world (His BST is only beat by one really...but who he ties with says some things) but because of his training/background he is adapt to his abilities as well...

So...what I'm saying is...

PSI > Magic

Canon wise Mewtwo is far more impressive than Link...

Oh and as far as Link using his sword to do any harm...what's going to happen when M2 uses his Telekinesis powers to strip Link of his weapons/armor? Or what's going to stop M2 from just throwing up a psychic shield to avoid any harm from Link's butter knife?

Also what do you do if you want to chat about a previous match that happened or bring up issues with the rules?
 

Samochan

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One embargo and Link is screwed. No arrows, no bombs, no ocarina, no hookshot, no healing drinks or fairies (yes those are items too in Zelda games)... Link's only assets here would be his magic and sword+shield, which I doubt would permanently damage Mewtwo in the long run due to recovery and substitute. Din and Nayru are kinda lol here, Mewtwo's not gonna even stay stationary with his way superior speed (and we can't ignore the levitation, but mewtwo can do without too) and certainly not close enough. Then some attacking move that attacks his sp.defence such as psychic for stab and 10% for sp.defence fell, thus ignoring his shield completely. Aura sphere is kinda useless, not like link is any fast in avoiding things either.

And remember guys, embargo prevents the usage of items alltogether, not just one held item, but also trainer items. So it's not limited to one item.

And I'm not going to "sword realistically would cut him in two", because realistically Mario would be incinerated by Chari's flame and so on, yet we've ignored such in favor of game mechanics. If the char is weak defensively and not shown capable of taking direct hits (such as peach) or something like that, I'm fine with bullet killing them outright. However for chars like Bowser and Mario, they can take a lot more punishment and thus a simple bullet nor sword wouldn't outright kill them. I think it would be ludicrous that a character can survive getting thrown into lava and stomped upon, but not a simple bullet.
 

Diddy Kong

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Donbstoopid.

Raizen said SOME realism is established here to prevent some really stupid things from happening. Like a bullet to the head, for example. Mewtwo, with his game mechanics, should be able to survive that. But we know that once there is a hole in someone's brain, it cannot function properly (kind of, depends where the bullet goes).

Mewtwo's head still flies off as he has like...no neck.
If Link would just cut heads of in Zelda, MAYBE it'd be possible <_<; Thing is, just try landing such a hit on a thing with pretty **** strong psychic powers. Also, you can shoot Ganondorf with an arrow in his head in TP, yet he only flinches. So I dunno what your talking about really.

Mewtwo's moves let him outstall Link even if he has 4 fairies. Mewtwo with maxed Calm Mind set up would just kill Link right after he's revived. Brick Break could potentially even harm Link through Nayru's Love, would Mewtwo prefer to go physical against Link.

Physical set with Bulk Up and Brick Break makes Mewtwo almost unable to get hurt with the sword and Brick Break breaks through Nayru's Love, Link's only protection.

Special set with Calm Mind and Psychic out stalls Link, and makes his elemental arrows do **** damage. Subsititue and Recover to stall Link out even more.

Mewtwo has this one.
 

Falcon88

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He said some, he did not say what is realistic here and there, he did not say it anywhere, or the least explain what is.
Please don't try to choose for him.
Yeah. I mean, Mewtwo is like a legendary Pokemon here - and he can always regenerate (well, as long as is needed for this fight) if he's hit. And he could attack from such a range that Link's sword would likely never touch him.

Also, being true to the canon games doesn't mean being realistic. Link can slash Bokoblins multiple times, and they don't lose any limbs.
 

Diddy Kong

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Link has never really cut of head in Zelda games, except I think once? But it was the finishing blow though I think. No way in hell he'd land such a blow on Mewtwo. <_< But don't mind PowerBomb, he's just... real biased against Mewtwo.

This match up reminds me of when I was 11 or something. Some kid in my class who always needed to help me clear dungeons in OoT was a real Link fanboy. I was more into Pokemon Gold, and as every kid I thought Mewtwo was the **** (still do kinda, but more in a nostalic way haven't actually even touched Pokemon since the dissapointment D/P was for me) so he'd say Link would beat Mewtwo by indeed... "just" cutting his head of.

PowerBomb reminds me of that guy. Funny though, how he'd always did the dungeons for me in Zelda... but I'd beat him HARD in Smash 64. :p
 

PowerBomb

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Link has never really cut of head in Zelda games, except I think once? But it was the finishing blow though I think. No way in hell he'd land such a blow on Mewtwo. <_< But don't mind PowerBomb, he's just... real biased against Mewtwo.

This match up reminds me of when I was 11 or something. Some kid in my class who always needed to help me clear dungeons in OoT was a real Link fanboy. I was more into Pokemon Gold, and as every kid I thought Mewtwo was the **** (still do kinda, but more in a nostalic way haven't actually even touched Pokemon since the dissapointment D/P was for me) so he'd say Link would beat Mewtwo by indeed... "just" cutting his head of.

PowerBomb reminds me of that guy. Funny though, how he'd always did the dungeons for me in Zelda... but I'd beat him HARD in Smash 64. :p
I am biased against Mewtwo because Mewtwo fanboys seriously irritate me. If it was about Lugia, I'd say Lugia would be top tier, because that's the legend I grew up with. I had Mewtwo too, but I just loved Lugia.

But seriously, if a sharp object is flying towards a neck, it should lop the straight off.

And Mewtwo has like no neck :O
 

Diddy Kong

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I am biased against Mewtwo because Mewtwo fanboys seriously irritate me. If it was about Lugia, I'd say Lugia would be top tier, because that's the legend I grew up with. I had Mewtwo too, but I just loved Lugia.

But seriously, if a sharp object is flying towards a neck, it should lop the straight off.

And Mewtwo has like no neck :O
Mewtwo fanboys are pretty bad yeah, I've also heard things like blowing up heads and stuff. :p But you'll likely only encounter them around Pokemon fansites anyway.

I see your point though, and I saw it before which is also why I defend Mewtwo cause otherwise he'll be losing match ups he doesn't need to lose. Lugia is pretty awesome yeah, liked him to when I was younger.

Link indeed would win in realistic terms, but that's where we have the Deadliest Brawler for. Truth is, neither Zelda or Pokemon have game mechanics where you see limbs being cut of (which actually would be awesome in Pokemon :D imagine your Pidgey just got a Rhyhorn's horn through it's head, and you'd walk into a Pokemon Center and everything's fine with Pidgey again... I'd buy that) so it won't be happening here either I guess.

Poor Link though. If this really was the G/S/C Mewtwo which I defended back then, cause he didn't have such attacks as Calm Mind, Subsitute, Embargo and about 40 points less max Special Attack.
 

UncleSam

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Truth is, neither Zelda or Pokemon have game mechanics where you see limbs being cut of (which actually would be awesome in Pokemon :D imagine your Pidgey just got a Rhyhorn's horn through it's head, and you'd walk into a Pokemon Center and everything's fine with Pidgey again... I'd buy that)
should I sig. this? :confused:
uh as for link
EDIT: oh noes link didn't work w/e
Even with links magic armor he still takes knockback so M2 can just stall it until he runs out of rupees.
and you know other stuff.
 

YesNoMaybeSo

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Link could just stop time...

Also, I'm having a hard time telling the difference between G's and C's in this thread cause of my computer.

Eachtime someone types Ganon, I see Canon, and vice versa <_<
 

REL38

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My biggest question is since when does Embargo limit usage of weapons?

Embargo limits use of items.
These items in Pokemon have only been healing type items.

I don't believe weapons fall under the category of "healing".
 

Salem

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Lol at stopping time with Ocarina when items are disabled. =)

Wait, can Link even stop time on OoT? >_>

Embargo is so broken.
Umm...

No?

Embargo works on held items right?

Remember when pokemon trainer had said items and yet they did not suddenly become unusable or vanish off him when embargo was used?

this is one of the moves that might only work on pokemon.
 

Diddy Kong

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Why would it only work on Pokemon? The move is performed on the Pokemon itself, not it's trainer. Embargo is weird yeah, but at least I think it would disable Link's potions as it would disable potion usage by trainers as well. And if Link can't have fairies... he becomes a lot less dangerous already.
 

Salem

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Why would it only work on Pokemon? The move is performed on the Pokemon itself, not it's trainer. Embargo is weird yeah, but at least I think it would disable Link's potions as it would disable potion usage by trainers as well. And if Link can't have fairies... he becomes a lot less dangerous already.
I'm saying it possibly doesn't work on humans.

And we've never seen it be done on a human character either, so what do we do?

Also, Link's items would probably be his ammo(?), not his actual weapons.
 

REL38

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Embargo limits usage of status/heal items.

These include Potions, Antidote, Ether, Berries and Attack X.


Embargo will only limit usage of Link's potions and whatnot. It won't affect his ability to use weapons. Arrows and his sword and other weapons will not be affected by Embargo.
 

Vonzar the Soulrender

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Embargo wouldn't effect Link at all. The Master Sword protects him from telekinesis and cursing. Note that in Twilight Princess Zant effortlessly beat both Link and Midna using only a fraction of Ganon's power: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6IQjaXNBOI

After Link attains the Master Sword, not only is he never turned into the Wolf involuntarily again, but neither Zant nor Ganondorf uses any sort of telekinesis powers against him. If you remember the darkness waves attack that Ganon did in OoT, you'll remember that it did not effect Link at all while navi was basically taken out of the fight entirely. Additionally Ganon was using his power to keep his castle afloat over the lake of lava, if he had the power to do that why not use it against Link? He couldn't due to the Master Sword's protection.

Embargo will not work against Link and neither will any form of Psychic manipulation as long as Link possesses the Master Sword.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Embargo wouldn't effect Link at all. The Master Sword protects him from telekinesis and cursing. Note that in Twilight Princess Zant effortlessly beat both Link and Midna using only a fraction of Ganon's power: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6IQjaXNBOI

After Link attains the Master Sword, not only is he never turned into the Wolf involuntarily again, but neither Zant nor Ganondorf uses any sort of telekinesis powers against him. If you remember the darkness waves attack that Ganon did in OoT, you'll remember that it did not effect Link at all while navi was basically taken out of the fight entirely. Additionally Ganon was using his power to keep his castle afloat over the lake of lava, if he had the power to do that why not use it against Link? He couldn't due to the Master Sword's protection.

Embargo will not work against Link and neither will any form of Psychic manipulation as long as Link possesses the Master Sword.
That's very.. interesting.
 

REL38

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Embargo wouldn't effect Link at all. The Master Sword protects him from telekinesis and cursing. Note that in Twilight Princess Zant effortlessly beat both Link and Midna using only a fraction of Ganon's power: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6IQjaXNBOI

After Link attains the Master Sword, not only is he never turned into the Wolf involuntarily again, but neither Zant nor Ganondorf uses any sort of telekinesis powers against him. If you remember the darkness waves attack that Ganon did in OoT, you'll remember that it did not effect Link at all while navi was basically taken out of the fight entirely. Additionally Ganon was using his power to keep his castle afloat over the lake of lava, if he had the power to do that why not use it against Link? He couldn't due to the Master Sword's protection.

Embargo will not work against Link and neither will any form of Psychic manipulation as long as Link possesses the Master Sword.
There ya go.
More proof Embargo won't work on Link.

Embargo = Cursing (essentially?)

Just wanna point out that attacks, such as Psychic or Psybeam, is a strong force created from tge users mind. In other words, Psychic or Psybeam is kinda like a gush of wind, but only stronger.

Only Dream Eater hurts the opponents mind, but it only works if Link's asleep.
 

Samochan

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Last time I checked, Embargo is a Dark type move, not psychic and thus not a telekinetic/pathic move. Besides, master sword protects against Ganondorf's and Zant's evil influence thing cause it's the blade of evil's bane, embargo is not an "evil" move nor is it limited to specific types. There's an actual curse move too you know, which is classified as ??? type and it actually curses your opponent. Embargo is not cursing your opponent. >_> Please do not assume things without concrete evidence.

Besides, why would it be limited to healing items only when the pokemon itself cannot use any item that have many other properties besides healing or stat upping.

"The foe is unable to use its held item and the Trainer is also unable to use items on that Pokémon for five turns."

This leaves little room for interpretation. Alongside that you cannot use Pokeflute for example to wake up your sleeping pokemon, or Pokeballs for that matter. So most certainly Embargo works on all kinds of items. Some of the held items look like weapons anyway (like Grip claw) and are used in such fashion.

All of Link's other weapons beside sword and shield are found from his item menu and need to be separately selected, thus items.

Oh and why we suddenly jumped from OoT Link to TP link anyway? >_>
 

Vonzar the Soulrender

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Last time I checked, Embargo is a Dark type move, not psychic and thus not a telekinetic/pathic move. Besides, master sword protects against Ganondorf's and Zant's evil influence thing cause it's the blade of evil's bane, embargo is not an "evil" move nor is it limited to specific types. There's an actual curse move too you know, which is classified as ??? type and it actually curses your opponent. Embargo is not cursing your opponent. >_> Please do not assume things without concrete evidence.
Well if people shouldn't assume than I would think that you shouldn't assume that the Master Sword will only protect Link from "evil" attacks or magic. It just doesn't make sense that it would only protect him sometimes. Embargo could be classified as a curse due to it's debuff style properties.


Oh and why we suddenly jumped from OoT Link to TP link anyway? >_>
we're not I was just using multiple examples to get my point across about the protective functions of the Master Sword.
 

Ganonsburg

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Speaking of assuming, you're assuming that Embargo works on non-Pokemon. Sure, it affects the trainer because he can't give stuff to the Pokemon, but that's only because the move was used on the Pokemon. The only instance of any Pokemon move working on any non-Pokemon is in the anime.

Curse- http://www.dictionary.net/curse
"something causes misery or death"
"a severe affliction"
"wish harm upon; invoke evil upon"
"To call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon; to imprecate evil upon; to execrate"

:034:
 

Diddy Kong

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If Embargo doesn't work:

Mewtwo's moves let him outstall Link even if he has 4 fairies. Mewtwo with maxed Calm Mind set up would just kill Link right after he's revived. Brick Break could potentially even harm Link through Nayru's Love, would Mewtwo prefer to go physical against Link.

Physical set with Bulk Up and Brick Break makes Mewtwo almost unable to get hurt with the sword and Brick Break breaks through Nayru's Love, Link's only protection.

Special set with Calm Mind and Psychic out stalls Link, and makes his elemental arrows do **** damage. Subsititue and Recover to stall Link out even more.

Mewtwo has this one.
 

Technologikall

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I remember a game (Windwaker?) where Link could be cursed and be unable to use his items. Kinda proves that he can be hit with embargo since that gas kinda was embargo.

So Mewtwo uses Embargo and Link can't even draw his sword just like in that game (Please Zelda fans tell from what game it was and take down your own character) and it's GG.
 

Vonzar the Soulrender

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It's nice that Mewtwo could use bulk up but it won't help if Link gets a hit in. Link has canonically lifted hundreds of tons in his game. If Mewtwo takes a single blow it's over.

Calm Mind may be able to lower the amount of damage from Link's elemental arrows but unlike Pokemon ice moves, Link's Ice arrows are an instant freeze every time. Also Link's Light arrows disintegrate any enemy in a single shot aside from Ganondorf.

Link has more than enough durability to stand up to any barrage of attacks Mewtwo could dish out. Taking on Ganondorf who's physical and magical abilities far outclass Mewtwo is more than enough proof.


I remember a game (Windwaker?) where Link could be cursed and be unable to use his items. Kinda proves that he can be hit with embargo since that gas kinda was embargo.

So Mewtwo uses Embargo and Link can't even draw his sword just like in that game (Please Zelda fans tell from what game it was and take down your own character) and it's GG.
I don't remember that ever happening in Wind Waker, but I know for a fact it happens in Majora's Mask. The thing is that in Majora's Mask Link does not have the Master Sword for protection.

GG
 

Technologikall

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It's nice that Mewtwo could use bulk up but it won't help if Link gets a hit in. Link has canonically lifted hundreds of tons in his game. If Mewtwo takes a single blow it's over.

Calm Mind may be able to lower the amount of damage from Link's elemental arrows but unlike Pokemon ice moves, Link's Ice arrows are and instant freeze every time. Also Link's Light arrows disintegrate any enemy in a single shot aside from Ganondorf.

Link has more than enough durability to stand up to any barrage of attacks Mewtwo could dish out. Taking on Ganondorf who's physical and magical abilities far outclass Mewtwo is more than enough proof.
I don't think Ganon is so much stronger than Mewtwo if he is at all.... Mewtwo's one of the strongest Pokémon, his Sp.Att even far surpassing Machamps attack. If you read Machamp's Pokedex entrys you'll see that that means that Mewtwo could be very well stronger. Also, doesn't Link not only beat Ganon because the light arrows and Mastersword are "Super Effective"? They are not against Mewtwo.

And I still think that Link doesn't have a protection against Embargo. I mean, he even got hit with an embargo-gas in his own games! Shouldn't that be enough evidence? The only thing that I need is someone who can prove it since I'm not even sure from which game it was....
 

missingnomaster

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It's nice that Mewtwo could use bulk up but it won't help if Link gets a hit in. Link has canonically lifted hundreds of tons in his game. If Mewtwo takes a single blow it's over.

Calm Mind may be able to lower the amount of damage from Link's elemental arrows but unlike Pokemon ice moves, Link's Ice arrows are an instant freeze every time. Also Link's Light arrows disintegrate any enemy in a single shot aside from Ganondorf.

Link has more than enough durability to stand up to any barrage of attacks Mewtwo could dish out. Taking on Ganondorf who's physical and magical abilities far outclass Mewtwo is more than enough proof.




I don't remember that ever happening in Wind Waker, but I know for a fact it happens in Majora's Mask. The thing is that in Majora's Mask Link does not have the Master Sword for protection.

GG
Actually, Light Arrows only vaporize evil enemies. It is possible for Link to be hit by a light arrow in WW. It does 1 heart to him and electrifies him.

Mewtwo is stated to be savage, though not necessarily evil.
 

Technologikall

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It's nice that Mewtwo could use bulk up but it won't help if Link gets a hit in. Link has canonically lifted hundreds of tons in his game. If Mewtwo takes a single blow it's over.

Calm Mind may be able to lower the amount of damage from Link's elemental arrows but unlike Pokemon ice moves, Link's Ice arrows are an instant freeze every time. Also Link's Light arrows disintegrate any enemy in a single shot aside from Ganondorf.

Link has more than enough durability to stand up to any barrage of attacks Mewtwo could dish out. Taking on Ganondorf who's physical and magical abilities far outclass Mewtwo is more than enough proof.




I don't remember that ever happening in Wind Waker, but I know for a fact it happens in Majora's Mask. The thing is that in Majora's Mask Link does not have the Master Sword for protection.

GG

Can't you return to that gas in the game after you have the Mastersword? Too bad if you can't. =(
 

Vonzar the Soulrender

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@technologikall

Please just go back one page and read what has already been posted. I already told you the game that it's in. I play these games all the freakin time I know what I'm talking about!

Can't you return to that gas in the game after you have the Mastersword? Too bad if you can't. =(
The Master Sword doesn't even exist in that game. It takes place in another dimension.

Btw go play Majora's Mask, it's a beast of a game.


@missingnomaster

You have a real good point about that, I'm not sure about only "Evil" enemies(do tektites really count as evil?), I'll have to break out my game and try it on absolutely everything. I believe that the only reason Link is not vaporized is because 1. he's chosen by the gods, 2. the Master Sword (which has been protecting him from all sorts of stuff anyway).
 

Diddy Kong

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It's nice that Mewtwo could use bulk up but it won't help if Link gets a hit in. Link has canonically lifted hundreds of tons in his game. If Mewtwo takes a single blow it's over.

Calm Mind may be able to lower the amount of damage from Link's elemental arrows but unlike Pokemon ice moves, Link's Ice arrows are an instant freeze every time. Also Link's Light arrows disintegrate any enemy in a single shot aside from Ganondorf.

Link has more than enough durability to stand up to any barrage of attacks Mewtwo could dish out. Taking on Ganondorf who's physical and magical abilities far outclass Mewtwo is more than enough proof.
Yeah, but the Golden Mittans doesn't make Link's sword attacks stronger. When you get those gauntles, you won't kill normal enemies any faster with it, so Mewtwo could very well tank Link's sword slashes. Especially with Bulk Up.

Link's Ice Arrows don't freeze Ganondorf or any bosses so... Light Arrows wouldn't be so strong against Mewtwo cause he isn't evil perse. All monsters in Zelda are created by curses from Ganon, so that's why the Light Arrows are so effective against them.

Even if Ganondorf would be stronger by default, Mewtwo's Calm Mind or Bulk Up would eventually make Mewtwo do higher damage than Ganondorf could do. Mewtwo's accuracy is better from his moves than Ganondorf's stronger magic (which is easy dodgable by Link, who's not all too fast really) and aren't being reflected by the sword or shield.

Discussing Mewtwo's strenght again... I think your slightly underestimating him, cause Mewtwo's a very good sweeper in his games, OHKO'ing other Ubers easily with proper set up as Rayquaza, Ho-Oh and other. I doubt Link's more durable than that.
 
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