Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Diddy Kong]

Uhm so Sonic would steal Ike's Ragnell? He can have other swords with him as well... A fully forged Silver Sword with maxed weapon attack will do more damage than the Ragnell anyways. There's also Ettard, the Brave Sword... Vague Kati.

EDIT: And wouldn't Ike's Nihil maybe prefent Sonic from using Chaos Control?

 

[Ekul]

...Then why have we been discussing that Ike use Ragnell if his opponents can steal it from him to hurt him when he has more powerful swords?

 

[PowerBomb]

@Salem: So...what? If time's frozen, how come Sonic's moving around, breathing in immobilized air molecules and exhaling Carbon Dioxide (or whatever he breathes)? If the air molecules were all trapped, Sonic would be stuck as well, but they're not.

@Diddy: Sonic can still run away and Ike would never get a chance to catch him.

@_clinton: So you're saying Lucas should have more PSI because the game is poking light fun at the reversed roles of females and males? Ever thought that the GAME maybe made it like that? Maybe Lucas doesn't have the capacity to learn those moves? To you, it seems as if Lucas has an infinite capacity to learn nearly every PSI move. But, in-game, in the canon, he has a finite capacity. >_>

 

[Diddy Kong]

But Ragnell cannot be stolen from Ike anyways. There's this lock sign next to the weapon which means only Ike can have it. But that's just a game mechanic really.

Those other swords aren't more powerful than Ragnell perse. A forged Silver Sword is stronger, and a Brave Sword would make Ike attack twice in a row. Ettard is weaker overall than Ragnell however. There's also Alondite (sp? dunno) the Black Knight's sword which is equal as strong so... How many swords will Sonic try to steal from Ike?

EDIT: @ PowerBomb, yeah Sonic can run away but then what? He won't win by running away either...

 

[Diddy Kong]

EDIT: **** double post.

 

[justaway12]

@ PowerBomb, yeah Sonic can run away but then what? He won't win by running away either..

Then it could be a tie, Ike can't attack, Sonic can't hurt.

Just like Peach vs. Zelda.

 

[Samochan]

Hm, Sonic obv cannot wield Ragnell because Ragnell can only be wielded by ike, but wielding is not the same as lifting or moving. But for sonic to even lift Ragnell, that's another story. So stealing this is a no game.

These infinite stall draws are kinda iffy and somewhat stupid to me. Characters should battle and not run away because they can't battle properly lol. If this is sonic's style, he should be able to draw every matchup just cause he can run away. That's like draw by default and comparable to wishing to win. <_< Besides, doesn't sonic ever get tired when running? <_> Or is he like a duracell bunny who never gets tired? =D

I suggest we modify our ruleset a bit in the light of this type of situation.

 

[justaway12]

Well, Sonic can run at the speed of sound so he go so far, Ike could never hope to catch up.

Though that is gay >_>
Most (if not all) of Zelda's and Sonic's MUs would end in a tie or win.
I guess it is kinda their in-game abilities afterall.

Zelda may lose to Sonic since I doubt she could react to the speed of sound. Maybe Ganon and Samus, but I don't know anything about them.

But what can you do? =/

 

[Samochan]

Well, zelda would actually fight by using her abilities as a defensive maneuver. But sonic doesn't even do that. <_< What's the big idea of even having matchups for sonic then if he'd just run away from them? =D Meta could abuse this too with his huge halberd, Falcon as well...

I suggest we ban strategies to deal with a match that do not have anything to do with actually fightning the matchup in some way. This way tactics that don't relate to fightning like simple run away to avoid the match alltogether cannot be used, but Sonic would still be able to run away from attacks, for instance and avoid things. Then Kirby could still use stone ability to block attacks he doesn't wanna take and even stick to stone if he really can't come out, but unneccesary stone stalling wouldn't be fightning, thus bannable offence as well.

Or something like "Match ends when either combatant is incapable of fightning and a draw can only occur when neither combatant cannot deal damage to each other when fightning, thus ending in a stalemate". Thus even while Sonic would try to avoid Ike forever, Sonic couldn't just draw the match, but zelda vs peach for example would still be legit draw.

How about it?

 

[justaway12]

I suppose that idea isn't bad, I mean every Mario character has a return pipe, which transports them to a completly different world.

I'm neutral to it right now. I'm going to wait till others say stuff.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Sonic's god like power is however limited though, he cannot stay like that forever.
Ike's is infinite, you have to damage him by getting the blessing.

Like how Super Sonic can only be damaged by knuckles, lol and other chaos beings.

Just to clear some things up on Ike's blessing, Yune is the goddess of chaos so thats the blessing he received. In order to hurt him it has to be a blessing of order and since it is the chaos emeralds then sonic wouldn't be able to hurt him.

And like you just said sonic can be hurt by other chaos beings which i think would qualify as Ike with a blessing of chaos. So sonics invincibility doesn't work against Ike.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@Salem: So...what? If time's frozen, how come Sonic's moving around, breathing in immobilized air molecules and exhaling Carbon Dioxide (or whatever he breathes)? If the air molecules were all trapped, Sonic would be stuck as well, but they're not.

That's no excuse. If I recall correctly, stop watches stop time BUT the characters are still moved while the time is stopped and hurt when the stop watch's affect wears out.

Sonic's time stopping ability seems to be limited apparently, just as how Salem as described.

 

[_clinton]

@_clinton: So you're saying Lucas should have more PSI because the game is poking light fun at the reversed roles of females and males? Ever thought that the GAME maybe made it like that? Maybe Lucas doesn't have the capacity to learn those moves? To you, it seems as if Lucas has an infinite capacity to learn nearly every PSI move. But, in-game, in the canon, he has a finite capacity. >_>

In game, in the canon, Lucas uses a certain amount of PSI outside of battle that he doesn't use in battle...hell he learns how to use some moves just by watching them happen to him...PK Flash for example is learned this way...

And again...there are no rules in regard to Lucas using things like PK Fire, Freeze, and Thunder...the only PK move that has any rules on how you can use it is PK Love/Rockin...that is another reason to why Lucas is being forcefully limited...

The definition of PK itself says this as well...because the moves all work the same way...

Plus Lucas is using more advanced moves than what Kumatora is using as well...the cost of a move is a reference to how much strain it puts on the user to use for example...which is another thing Lucas has in common with Ness but whatever ^_^

Your thoughts on Lucas being unable to use moves because he is limited is void when Lucas is a greater psychic than Kumatora...who is a gifted psychic...as in above average...so Lucas would be greater than above average!

Just to clear some things up on Ike's blessing, Yune is the goddess of chaos so thats the blessing he received. In order to hurt him it has to be a blessing of order and since it is the chaos emeralds then sonic wouldn't be able to hurt him.

And like you just said sonic can be hurt by other chaos beings which i think would qualify as Ike with a blessing of chaos. So sonics invincibility doesn't work against Ike.

The chaos emeralds are a power of order...

"Chaos control"

If you are able to control chaos...what are you making? Order people!

Oh and again...how come Eggman is able to outrun Sonic?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dude _clinton just stop it.

Lucas will not gain time and space control here, neither will he get Kumatora's PSI abilities.

What makes you think he can use her abilities anyway? As far as I know... PK Freeze Omega is still stronger than anything Lucas has. <_<; PK Starstorm comes very close to PK Love as well. So what exactly makes you think Lucas' PK is stronger than Kumatora's? It's actually the exact opposite here.

And IIRC, PK Flash was learned cause Lucas got hit by a lighting bolt on the Thunder Tower. He didn't learned PK Thunder (which you'd actually expect) or anything so he doesn't get it.

One thing makes me wonder though, Eggman can outrun Sonic??

 

[Ekul]

Also, Sonic's strategy hasn't been to run away, it's usually to spring at people with his body or some other strategy. I'm not saying he doesn't dodge, but he just doesn't generally run away from any of the games I've seen

I also dislike "Run away forever" battles. If the battle can be run from, then Link and Mario just wouldn't fight. Why kill a hero? Ike and Marth? Wouldn't fight. Zelda and Peach? Definitely wouldn't fight. We're assuming there is some sort of stakes wagering on the battle that each side feels they must win.

 

[_clinton]

What makes you think he can use her abilities anyway? As far as I know... PK Freeze Omega is still stronger than anything Lucas has. <_<; PK Starstorm comes very close to PK Love as well. So what exactly makes you think Lucas' PK is stronger than Kumatora's? It's actually the exact opposite here.

Actually PK Love Omega does more damage than everything Kumatora has...the one move to come close (per hit) is PK Starstorm...Lucas also absorbs and gets the same thing Ness gets end game...but that is another issue as well...

The fact is...Lucas at end game is a far more powerful psychic than Kumatora...

And IIRC, PK Flash was learned cause Lucas got hit by a lighting bolt on the Thunder Tower. He didn't learned PK Thunder (which you'd actually expect) or anything so he doesn't get it.

PK Flash is learned because he got hit by an attack (which is sort of what I said if you actually look right)

Still...Lucas is learning PSI just by experiencing things in action canon wise...quite easily as well...which only further backs up my points about PK Love/Rockin being the only moves with a requirement, Lucas being a powerful psychic, and how flexible of a power Psychokinesis is...

One thing makes me wonder though, Eggman can outrun Sonic??

Yep...haven't you ever played Sonic the hedgehog 2?

Another thing I should bring up though is...

Tails>Sonic ^_^

 

[Ryne]

Sonic could turn super and battle Ike this way. But then again, only 5 weapons can hurt Ike, one being his sword.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The chaos emeralds are a power of order...

"Chaos control"

If you are able to control chaos...what are you making? Order people!

Oh and again...how come Eggman is able to outrun Sonic?

Controlling chaos doesn't mean your making order you can control chaos to bring about more chaos which makes a lot more sense.

The universe has a natural order and when you start messing with its physical laws of time and space you are creating chaos.

So its still Ike can hurt sonic and sonic can't hurt ike. All sonic can do is try and steal ike's weapon which he can be carrying 4 different ones which I would imagine to be urvan aldonite vague katti and ragnell. By the end of my game these 4 weapons always end up being blessed by Yune so even if sonic stole one the next time he tried it even as super sonic he would get killed.

 

[Ekul]

In this scenario Sonic has next to no chance of winning and Ike does have a chance of winning. This MU is in Ike's favor, even if it is slim. Even if Sonic runs, he'll age quicker and die before Ike does, so Ike wins by sheer age alone.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Actually PK Love Omega does more damage than everything Kumatora has...the one move to come close (per hit) is PK Starstorm...Lucas also absorbs and gets the same thing Ness gets end game...but that is another issue as well...

The fact is...Lucas at end game is a far more powerful psychic than Kumatora...

Lucas and Ness don't get the same power, the Dark Dragon I guess only rules over the Nowhere Islands, while Ness' power absorbs the whole Earth's power. And Lucas doesn't become stronger ingame by pulling the Needles, he just learns a higher level of PK Love, which doesn't go higher than Omega.

PK Starstorm and PK Love do around the same damage. The difference might maybe be... 100 damage? PK Freeze still does more damage, but many enemies resist it in Mother 3. Kumatora also has PK Ground, which is pretty awesome as well.

PK Flash is learned because he got hit by an attack (which is sort of what I said if you actually look right)

It wasn't an attack, it was a lightning bolt from Thunder Tower as I said before.

Still...Lucas is learning PSI just by experiencing things in action canon wise...quite easily as well...which only further backs up my points about PK Love/Rockin being the only moves with a requirement, Lucas being a powerful psychic, and how flexible of a power Psychokinesis is...

Well, eventually Ness and Lucas both used different moves of what the originally had in Smash so your most likely right. But this is being true to their actual games, so no... No other abilities than in game.

Yep...haven't you ever played Sonic the hedgehog 2?

Another thing I should bring up though is...

Tails>Sonic ^_^

No, I haven't played any Sonic game really.

 

[missingnomaster]

I really don't like arguing with clinton, but I'll clarify about the Eggman thing.

At the Death Egg in Sonic 2, after you defeat Robo Sonic, Eggman (I believe he was still called Robotnic at that time) runs away into his giant robot suit. The speed at which he runs at that time, and that time only, can not be beaten by Sonic.
And, by using the debug menu cheat, you find out that Super Sonic can not outspeed him either. In fact, I don't think you can even outspeed him by turning into an object (something the debug cheat lets you do)

So I don't think that is a very valid scenario.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then it could be a tie, Ike can't attack, Sonic can't hurt.

Just like Peach vs. Zelda.

Not true, Ike can carry more swords with him than just Ragnell. Alondite (the Black Knight's sword) is just as strong as Ragnell for example. A forged Silver Sword is even stronger.

Ike wins then I guess. Running away is for ******* anyway.

 

[Salem]

Not true, Ike can carry more swords with him than just Ragnell. Alondite (the Black Knight's sword) is just as strong as Ragnell for example. A forged Silver Sword is even stronger.

Ike wins then I guess. Running away is for ******* anyway.

Running away is a forfeit. XD

 

[missingnomaster]

Running away is a forfeit. XD

That's a good way to look at it I guess.

 

[PowerBomb]

Spoiler

I still think Yune's Blessing qualifies as back-up, but IDC anymore.

Ike wins, next MU

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Alright, so he wins due to having more weapons he could attack with?

 

[Salem]

Alright, so he wins due to having more weapons he could attack with?

Sonic could take those too and throw them away. :X
But he can't.

Ike wins cause Sonic forfeits by running away, which makes more sense than ever.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

VS.

Current Match-Up:
THE STAR HERO Vs. THE SUPER BROTHER

Kirby Vs. Mario

Vs.

Round 3, Match 2.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, , , , , , , , , ,

Neutral:

:mewtwo:, ,

Loss -1:

, , , , , , , , , , , ichu:

Loss -2:

,

Loss -3:

, , ,

 

[PowerBomb]

I'd think Mario since he has much more at his arsenal than Kirby does.

 

[missingnomaster]

Can Mario stop Metal Kirby on a Warp Star?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Doesn't the stop watch stop everything?

 

[rasd123]

Valuable information.

 

[Salem]

Doesn't the stop watch stop everything?

Does that matter against invinciblity?

 

[missingnomaster]

Doesn't make Metal Kirby any less invincible.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Hmm, is there a cap on starman?

 

[BSP]

so is kirby just gonna become invincible and be too slw to do anything in each matchup?

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah, there's a cap on Starman. Isn't the Blue Shell invincible though?

 

[Salem]

so is kirby just gonna become invincible and be too slw to do anything in each matchup?

Kirby could actually get hurt when he's metal, you would have to be an actual physical attack though.

He could also get hurt while on a warp star in Kirby Air Ride... >_>

Just saying... XD

 

[PowerBomb]

Metal Kirby doesn't get hurt unless... I think spikes, maybe?

 

[missingnomaster]

Metal Kirby doesn't get hurt unless... I think spikes, maybe?

Nope. Only bosses hurt him, which is an obvious game mechanic because the ability's description directly tells you that you can't get hurt.