Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Salem]

He transported the Ark. And himself, over and over again.

Isn't Ragnell a human object? Wasn't it made by humans and blessed by the gods or something like that?

Anyway, what's to say Chaos Control can't transport the sword?

Hmm...

If Sonic can chaos control than how come he can't just get all the emeralds like that in his games?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I thought only certain individuals could weild Ragnelss (only Ike can equip it in game) and besides, Can Sonic even lift it if he did take it away?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I thought only certain individuals could weild Ragnelss (only Ike can equip it in game) and besides, Can Sonic even lift it if he did take it away?

 

[Salem]

Um, no.

You can only equip Ragnell to Ike, weapons cannot be stolen as the enemies in FE tried.

That sword was also specially designed for Sonic so he could lift it.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Touche, sir...though is there anything that equates that sword weight to Ragnell. Ragnell is based off a Zeingwandur (sp), a german two hand sword, and the sword Sonic is weilding is a basic knight's sword.

@Salem
Technically they can be, but they can't be equipped, but I'm assuming Ike will enter the fight with Ragnell equipped

 

[PowerBomb]

Hmm...

If Sonic can chaos control than how come he can't just get all the emeralds like that in his games?

Well, story for one. And because if he did that, there wouldn't really be a story. He also didn't realize he could do Chaos Control until Sonic Adventure Battle: 2.

Sonic needs a Chaos Emerald to do it, or something that's close enough to a Chaos Emerald.

EDIT: Salem, saying that "you can't steal Ike's sword because it doesn't happen in-game" is a reason why some realism is implemented. Otherwise, we have stupid stuff like that. Ike has hands and fingers. They can be pried apart.

 

[_clinton]

There is like a 10 page difference between my last post…but I don’t care

There is like 50 different things in this post on that Lucas vs. Bowser match...the only thing I hope for is that people figure out that Lucas being limited in pk skills for battle is a game play mech. (like Mewtwo only having 4 moves) and that they figure out Lucas does have telepathic powers...

Power of the earth means power of the current earth. If there's another world where you call something power of the earth, it's the power of THAT earth, not earth power of every bazillion universe and worlds there might be.

PK Love=PK Rockin is what I mean by same PK Family…PK Love/Rockin is the main reason why Ness/Lucas are so powerful

Also again…the power of the earth has been shown to be moveable…so it changing shape shouldn’t mean anything

Itoi even said they are the same pretty much in an interview for between M1 and M2…and then he did the same idea in Mother 3 with Lucas getting the power of the earth!

http://www.lindsaynelson.com/2009/04/famitsu-06191992/

Yet, this is not Earthbound, this is Mother 3. Suprise suprise. If one character does something on another game, it doesn't mean another character does the exact same on another game by default. In this case, Lucas doesn't do such thing, as stated by the game text.

Except we are talking about pk…the most broken power ever

So stop using Ness as an example what Lucas can or cannot do. Different games and char = Different story and mechanics and works. Liek, Young Link can't do hurricane spin while WW Link can, even though both can do charged spin attack.

Yet…both of the Link’s have the ToC…which is my point about Ness and Lucas ^_^

Then it's what is left. >_> It doesn't mean they're on the same world. Besides, why would a simple island be left if Ness saved the world anyway? Even more proof Ness and Lucas aren't from the same world.

Have you even played the Mother games? Ness saved the world from Giygas…not from mankind! Mankind is the one who ****ed the world to the point where only an island was left…the only reason why the island was left was because that is where the power of the earth ended up after Ness used it!

Lol neither has Lucas, he has certain PSI abilities on Mother 3 and that's it. We're not assuming he does any fancy tricks behind the curtains and even if he did, we do not include those into this conversation because it's not canon. =)

Lucas has shown that he has telepathic skills…and again…the only reason why he doesn’t use every PK move is by the choice of the people who made the game…the only pk move that has some restrictions on who can use it is PK Love/Rockin

I guess then pokemons that are not psychics can also alter time and space. Trick room is not a move learned only by psychic type pokemon lolz.

You should actually look at what pokemon can learn trick room before you type something like this again…the only pokemon that can learn trick room are pokemon that are “unnatural” in some way

Bowser, Mario and Luigi must be Psionic masters too. :o Samus must be a psionic as well, she can shoot Darkbursts at will that open rifts in space. ^_^

Samus’ suit was made by a race of people that have come back from the dead…
Mario, Bowser, and Luigi have to buy a stop watch in order to screw with time…it’s not their natural skill

Seriously, first you are saying Ness and Lucas can alter time... now you are saying Mewtwo can as well to support your (fairly ludicrous) argument about psionics capable of altering time and space? Now I've heard it all.

Again…explain how psychics can use things like PK Fire if they don’t have some control over time/space?

I dunno a good wording here in english, but it most certainly is not a good or reliable source to use here. It lists random stuff that have nothing to do with actual psionic abilities we are discussing here.

It’s a better source than the one that was brought up that used Wikipedia…I don’t really care about the source though

Oh and if you looked at the definition of what they made with certain things…and what they do…you might see why they are “psychic”

You, our dear _Clinton, are lacking any credibility to make any sorts of working arguments when you present evidence (what concrete evidence?) such as these. >_>

I like how you don’t understand the arguments so you say they are bad ^_^

If you actually looked up how things like PK Fire/Freeze/Thunder/whatever was made you might understand the point about speeding up/slowing down time/screwing with space…but you haven’t…so whatever

Yes, like every game, he says something like "Oh, you got lucky!" "Ohh, I'll got you next time" etc. He also claimed in Mario Party Advance he has the IQ of 9000 =/

That still doesn’t matter…he likes to boost a lot…but looking at the facts of these fights/story for the game it says otherwise: He didn’t have the full power of the stars in between the 1st few fights…the fact that he got so much more powerful by the 3rd fight and even chanced his form and brings up the stars influence on that is proof of that.

Again he is known for making excuse and again look at Super Mario Galaxy, and surprise, surprise, the same moves, PLUS he changed the laws of gravity and has the ability to cover himself in rock.
The grand star there wasn't even on his person, it was under the last planet.

Bowser was using the stars to make his own galaxy according to the game…making some sort of defense for him is part of using that power don’t you think?

We do use items if it is on the characters item list.

What part of canon battles don’t you get anyway? Natural skill is not just using someone else’s gear!

So the power to think in suspeded animation =/
That isn't possible.
Have they been shown to be frozen? Or was it like some extremly vague quote?

Dude…the move is called 4th D slip…the fourth dimension deals with time…and each Mother game deals with time in some shape or form…being able to do things like PK Fire/and so on should be proof that you have some resistance to the laws of nature…Time stop isn’t going to work on a psychic ok! Or at least certain levels and with the level Lucas is at…it’s going to take some equal control to screw with him

Even I'm forgetting Bowser has the power to turn Lucas into an inanimate object =/

Funny…because inanimate objects happen to be a status effect in the various games…and you can deal with them…

And again, if Mario has the bulk of the stars, why doesn't he use some of that power of fire-breath, teleportation and earthquake/soundwave thing

Maybe because he was using that power just to be in the castle’s walls…maybe you should review what the story was for SM64…I know it’s a Mario game and they “don’t have much of a story beyond saving that worthless ***** of a princess” but they do have something there at least ^_^

Okay your sounding more reasonable now but that still doesn't mean that Lucas can manipulate time and space in fights here cause he doesn't has a move like that. Simple as that really.

Again…what don’t you understand about what PK is?

Flint and Duster talk to animals to... >_> They aren't psychics.

Flint and Duster do not talk to animals…this movie I’m about to show should prove that Flint and Duster don’t understand them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z2ptDhkvxw&feature=PlayList&p=A1EDF3705710B6BB&index=13

@ 2:48 Alec says that according to his froggy intelligence Claus is at “his friend’s” house
@3:14 Alec points out that he can’t speak with animals…but “his friend” can
@3:21 Alec points out that his friend can speak with animals…

Flint being shocked about “froggy intelligence” is proof that he can’t speak with animals

It is a telepathic skill! That is used by more than one psychic in the game (Kumatora uses it on Salsa in order to help him)

@3:41 Alec even points out that Flint has doubts about psychic powers

Look, the thing is... Bowser has invincibility, and Lucas has got nothing to stop it. And if Lucas would be able to manipulate time and space, why the hell didn't he do so when Claus was pulling the needles? <_< He'd just manipulate time, rewind the whole thing and pull the needle himself but he didn't.

WTF…what part of Lucas getting his full power only at the end of the game did you not understand? This is like the 20th time I brought it up that Lucas end game has no game play mechs...and the only thing close is what Ness does when he gets the same power!

 

[missingnomaster]

Clinton: Lucas isn't getting abilities he isn't shown to have in game.

GF wall of text.

Rule 11. All your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored.

 

[Samochan]

Guess every pokemon can now alter time and space because they built up flamethrowers, water guns and **** from empty space. =) Dialga and Palkia must feel so unemployed when squirtle does both their jobs. And lol at Lucas not getting every PK move cause game makers didn't want him to, but he should be capable of wielding every PK move anyway. =D I know! Let's ignore everyone's game abilities alltogether and give them whatever abilities we want, cause game makers obviously made mistake and characters should get all kinds of things! Yes!

Canonically Lucas only gets his PK moves he can use ingame and that's it. That's canon for you, no more or less. Everything else is non-canon and has no place in this discussion and that includes things found from other EB games. Lucas is not in those games = not his games = not used to determine his canon abilities. End of story. Finito.

 

[Unknownlight]

He also didn't realize he could do Chaos Control until Sonic Adventure Battle: 2.

This needs to be corrected because it's such a simple, yet infuriatingly common mistake. Sonic learned how to achieve Chaos Control in the Dreamcast game Sonic Adventure 2. There's no "Battle" in the name. Later, SA2 was ported to Gamecube, under the name Sonic Adventure 2: Battle to highlight the battle mode exclusive to the Gamecube version. Calling the game "Sonic Adventure Battle: 2" on a Sonic board is the easiest way to get yourself hated.

 

[_clinton]

Clinton: Lucas isn't getting abilities he isn't shown to have in game.

He is shown to have psychokinesis...who's level of power with it can alter anything...the only reason why Lucas isn't using things like PK Fire, Freeze, and Thunder is because of the people who made that game...because I see no real rule behind what Lucas' level is that is truly stopping him from being able to use those things except for the fact that Kumatora needs to have a battle role of "black mage"

Guess every pokemon can now alter time and space because they built up flamethrowers, water guns and **** from empty space. =) And lol at Lucas not getting every PK move cause game makers didn't want him to, but he should be capable of wielding every PK move anyway. xD

Canonically Lucas only gets his PK moves he can use ingame and that's it. That's canon for you, no more or less. Everything else is non-canon and has no place in this discussion. End of story. Finito.

See...this is what I said before about people not understanding my argument...not every pokemon can alter time and space...because not every pokemon has been shown to be "unnatural"

Some pokemon that can build up flamethrowers, water guns, and use some other things are able to use it because they have it naturally...Charizard can use a flamethrower because he can breath fire naturally...but you don't see him using Ice beam now do you? Because most of his movepool makes sense with what he can do...

Maybe you haven't looked at the various pokemon types before and compared their move pool...but if you have than you should know that psychic pokemon in general have a far greater move pool than pokemon from most of the other types...

Ever wonder why that is?

In fact I'm pretty sure the only type that has a greater move pool selection than a psychic type is a certain selection of normal type pokemon...which is ironic that "normal" types would have this...

 

[missingnomaster]

It really doesn't matter what psychokinesis is. Lucas only gets what he gets in the game.

LOL at Rattata being able to alter time and space since it can learn Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.

 

[Salem]

lol @ thread.

@Miss:

Umm... That stuff is in his game thus he can use it.

@Power_Bomb:

Yeah, and Ike can rip the chaos emeralds right out of Sonic.
No BS, nobody has explained what kind of realisim is it.

 

[Samochan]

It really doesn't matter what psychokinesis is. Lucas only gets what he gets in the game.

LOL at Rattata being able to alter time and space since it can learn Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.

Rattata must be a psionic! D: Le gasp!

Rattata's so unnatural! Such a rare pokemon! *goes to catch bazillion rattatas*

the only reason why Lucas isn't using things like PK Fire, Freeze, and Thunder is because of the people who made that game...

Which is precisely the reason he won't get any more abilities. =)

Salem, must you fuel _clinton's fire? >_> Something being on same game =/= character can utilize it on default. Lucas cannot learn all abilities showcased on Mother3, just like pokemon cannot learn all attacks.

 

[missingnomaster]

lol @ thread.

@Miss:

Umm... That stuff is in his game thus he can use it.

@Power_Bomb:

Yeah, and Ike can rip the chaos emeralds right out of Sonic.
No BS, nobody has explained what kind of realisim is it.

lol @ you.

REALLY NOW? I'd really like to see some PK Space Warp or PK Time Warp or something like that.
Or PK Time Immunity.

There is quite a big difference between Ragnell, which is exposed, and the Emeralds, which are not.

 

[Salem]

lol @ you.

REALLY NOW? I'd really like to see some PK Space Warp or PK Time Warp or something like that.
Or PK Time Immunity.

There is quite a big difference between Ragnell, which is exposed, and the Emeralds, which are not.

lol back @ you

That was a cheap way to say what kind of realisim is it.

I'm not saying things like that exist, i'm saying cutscenes are canon. XD
And _clinton is proving how canon it really is. lol

 

[_clinton]

Which is precisely the reason he won't get any more abilities. =)

So him being limited by game mechs is the reason why he won't get any more abilities?

So...even though Lucas' canon says other wise by the definition of what the type of psychic skill he has...you saying he can't just because you can't see what game mechs are between what's actual canon is worth more?

Game mechs. aren't canon...just thought I'd tell you that ^_^

REALLY NOW? I'd really like to see some PK Space Warp or PK Time Warp or something like that.
Or PK Time Immunity.

Fun fact...being able to destroy everything and anything just based off what you are feeling is sure hitting this area...

It really doesn't matter what psychokinesis is. Lucas only gets what he gets in the game.

Which is psychokinesis...how about that

LOL at Rattata being able to alter time and space since it can learn Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.

Again...Rattata is just proof about my "normal" pokemon not being "normal" comment from my last post (as in you can't take some things seriously)

 

[Ekul]

Even if Sonic runs away, isn't Ike a mercenary? He's trained to track people down, so I'm sure he could find Sonic eventually and kill him in his sleep.

 

[_clinton]

My quick thoughts on the Sonic vs. Ike fight...

Ike having the protection of a god of order/chaos shouldn't influence Sonic kicking the **** out of him with his tools that let him have limited control over chaos/order...

 

[Salem]

My quick thoughts on the Sonic vs. Ike fight...

Ike having the protection of a god of order/chaos shouldn't influence Sonic kicking the **** out of him with his tools that let him have limited control over chaos/order...

The god like power will negate all that Sonic has...

 

[_clinton]

The god like power will negate all that Sonic has...

The god like power is what Sonic has with the Chaos emeralds though...

 

[Salem]

The god like power is what Sonic has with the Chaos emeralds though...

Sonic's god like power is however limited though, he cannot stay like that forever.
Ike's is infinite, you have to damage him by getting the blessing.

Like how Super Sonic can only be damaged by knuckles, lol and other chaos beings.

 

[PowerBomb]

Is _clinton seriously saying that Lucas should get PK Fire/Freeze/Thunder just because Kumatora has it or something? Really?

Then tell me why a Blaziken in a double battle with Infernape, with the Infernape using Close Combat, does not learn Close Combat.

Why?

Because, maybe the creators of the game WANT the character not to learn those moves. Maybe they can't.

 

[Salem]

Is _clinton seriously saying that Lucas should get PK Fire/Freeze/Thunder just because Kumatora has it or something? Really?

Then tell me why a Blaziken in a double battle with Infernape, with the Infernape using Close Combat, does not learn Close Combat.

Why?

Because, maybe the creators of the game WANT the character not to learn those moves. Maybe they can't.

Same could be said about alot of things Mr.Power_Bomb.

 

[_clinton]

Sonic's god like power is however limited though, he cannot stay like that forever.
Ike's is infinite, you have to damage him by getting the blessing.

Like how Super Sonic can only be damaged by knuckles, lol and other chaos beings.

I'm aware Sonic's god power is that I'm aware its more limited than Ike's...

However, sense they both have "chaos level" god powers they should neutralize each other out...

Sonic's chaos emeralds are the same type as Ike's blessing you know (they are both powered by a being of order/chaos)

So any non damage towards the others that they would have shouldn't be in play because of that ^_^

 

[PowerBomb]

Same could be said about alot of things Mr.Power_Bomb.

About some people that should be learning things that they don't?

 

[Salem]

About some people that should be learning things that they don't?

That and something else. >.>

@_clinton:

They however are not the same power, Ike does not have any sort of chaos last I checked.
It all was from the gods.

 

[BSP]

First, there's no way Ike is catching sonic, so this is a draw for sonic at the very least. I read that Ike is invincible to everything besides some blessed weapon correct? I think this was discussed, but sonic has the tools to steal the weapon. He can become invincible himself, stop time, warp the sword with chaos control...or even just warp behind ike and snatch it before he reacts.

@clinton

This thread is for true to their games, as in what the characters can perform in game and that's it.

 

[Salem]

First, there's no way Ike is catching sonic, so this is a draw for sonic at the very least. I read that Ike is invincible to everything besides some blessed weapon correct? I think this was discussed, but sonic has the tools to steal the weapon. He can become invincible himself, stop time, warp the sword with chaos control...or even just warp behind ike and snatch it before he reacts.

@clinton

This thread is for true to their games, as in what the characters can perform in game and that's it.

Is Sonic stealing canon?
Can Sonic teleport "special" items?

 

[BSP]

Like powerbomb said, he could transport the ark...can you define special?

Hmm, you might be right about stealing..i can't think of a time where he steals opponents weapons, unlike shadow lol.

 

[Salem]

Like powerbomb said, he could transport the ark...can you define special?

Hmm, you might be right about stealing..i can't think of a time where he steals opponents weapons, unlike shadow lol.

The ark is not magic, it is a basic object.

Magic powered or god powered, that kind of special, not normal like the basic objects.

 

[Lex Crunch]

I believe that if one were to say, accidentally drop Ragnell on the floor under a table, then pick it up, chances are they would accidentally slice the table in half in the process of picking it up, not to mention it can spam projectiles indefinitely that have enough power to easily kill a man with one shot.

All it takes is one wrong light step from Sonic's end, be it an accident or a trap, and that sword is cutting him to pieces, and I've yet to see Sonic demonstrate any ability to actually kill a person, yet only to destroy possibly poorly manufactured mecha.

For the sake of argument, however, should Sonic be in possession of the Chaos Emeralds, he has proven that he can not only fly and teleport, but also easily hold up and destroy a gargantuan airship with a mere thought. So if he were Super Sonic, it would be over before it started. The question is do you really want to count that?

One could argue that Ragnell is Ike's Super Sonic/Chaos Emerald equivalent, which could be considered fair, I suppose, as he is still more than capable with plain steel. So take away the super powers and the holy weapons and what do you have? Well, painful as it is to say, by himself, without Ragnell, Ike stands no chance even against unpowered Sonic from what I know. He's just an ordinary guy with adept military and swordsmanship skills in a more realistic universe battling a furry that can break the sound barrier.

It all comes down to what tools they have, and if Ike were to win, he would have to have the greater gain of tools at his disposal than Sonic.

And on the concept of Sonic stealing Ike's weaponry, he would probably be unable to hold Ike's godly weapon, and even if he wasn't using a holy sword, I, too, have never seen, nor can I conceive the idea of Sonic stealing his opponent's arsenal.

 

[PowerBomb]

Sonic has fingers, arms, and hands, yes? Then Sonic can grab Ragnell and pull it away from Ike.

EDIT: Of course, Sonic would freeze time and then yank it out or something.

 

[Lex Crunch]

'Tis not as if Ike is a clumsy butterfingers or anything. His grip is undoubtedly more than a worthy adversary for Sonic's attempt to pull his own weapon away from him, should that ever happen. In fact, should Sonic try that tactic, I do believe it would be a fatal mistake...

 

[BSP]

'Tis not as if Ike is a clumsy butterfingers or anything. His grip is undoubtedly more than a worthy adversary for Sonic's attempt to pull his own weapon away from him, should that ever happen. In fact, should Sonic try that tactic, I do believe it would be a fatal mistake...

Uh, Ike frozen in time? He can't retaliate. Is Ike invulnerable or invincible? If the latter, sonic might actually be able to ram him until he drops the sword.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well, since Ike's muscles aren't really enacting force on the sword (since they're frozen in time), Sonic can pry the sword away.

 

[_clinton]

Is _clinton seriously saying that Lucas should get PK Fire/Freeze/Thunder just because Kumatora has it or something? Really?

Then tell me why a Blaziken in a double battle with Infernape, with the Infernape using Close Combat, does not learn Close Combat.

I like how you think me saying Lucas having a larger PK selection is a big thing...I've already given tons of reasons on to why Lucas does have a larger selection of moves than the game shows. One of those reasons being canon which is because of him being a far more powerful psychic than Kumatora, another because him having a limited selection was done on purpose...its been that way for all 3 games...one of the reasons on why Lucas has more healing PSI and Kumatora has more offense PSI is because Mother is a parody of many things...and one of the things it pokes light fun at is the general roles put in certain other RPGs...including the move pool for various characters

Hell you can even tell they aren't serious about their roles...the only reason Kumatora stopped learn healing moves may be because of Lucas (You start playing as Lucas full time at the 1/2 point of Mother 3...Kumatora is at 20% of the way through)

They however are not the same power, Ike does not have any sort of chaos last I checked.
It all was from the gods.

The point I'm trying to make though is that Sonic's "chaos control" power is in no way better than Ike's "chaos control"

Because of both of these characters having some sort of control over chaos (Sonic because of some special items that can be used by almost anyone it seems these days to control chaos and make order out of it, and Ike because he is given a blessing from a god of order) they should be neutral in this match up...

So they should be able to hurt each other while under their effects

I don't see how one of them is better at control over chaos/protecting themselves from the control over chaos with their limited items of jewels and blessing...

This thread is for true to their games, as in what the characters can perform in game and that's it.

And Lucas is a psychokinetic psychic who is at "god-level" for his skills

Uh, Ike frozen in time? He can't retaliate. Is Ike invulnerable or invincible? If the latter, sonic might actually be able to ram him until he drops the sword.

How is Ike going to be frozen in time in the 1st place?

He has the blessings from a goddess of order...and I don't think you seem to understand how powerful something like that is...

Oh and for those of you who don't get it...its more than just Ike's sword that has been blessed...Radiant Dawn has him personally getting the blessing...not just his sword IIRC

 

[Salem]

Well, since Ike's muscles aren't really enacting force on the sword (since they're frozen in time), Sonic can pry the sword away.

Um, no?

Last I remember when everything is time stopped nothing moves NOTHING, even if you hit it repeatidly, it will take damage only after the time stop is over, same can be said for the sword.

Explain to me how absolutely NOTHING moving can be moved.

Also look up, Ike has been heard to have the blessing without the sword. GG

 

[_clinton]

Also look up, Ike has been heard to have the blessing without the sword. GG

Again...I should point out that I don't see how their power's origin should matter when they are both doing the same thing (protection from chaos/some control over chaos)

Also...because I love doing this...how come Eggman is faster than Sonic? ^_^

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

i still don't think Sonic can weild the sword, Sonic isn;t very strong and Ragnell has one of the highest weigths for any weapon in the game IIRC. BEsides SOnic isnt't exactly jacked...