Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Crystanium]

Samus’ speed booster doesn’t even kill some of the Normal foes in Super Metroid! How is that invincibility again when it won’t even kill weak foes like this?

Invincibility ≠ attacking.

You can just shoot that foe with Samus’ weaker weapons to kill it…WTF is up with that?

So? Kagos act as barriers. When Samus runs into a wall, she stops running. The same thing happens when she runs into Kagos. I trust that in reality, the force that Samus is running or flying at would rip the Kago right out of the ground.

 

[missingnomaster]

It should also be noted that the way Kagos work seems like a game mechanic to me. From what I remember, they take damage based on the number of times they are hit, so the Power Beam is just as effective as Plasma+Wave+Ice.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Edit: @Powerbomb(guess I haven't refreshed in awhile)

Game.Play.Mechanics. Not valid evidence.

The volcano freezing is a canon story element.

 

[missingnomaster]

The volcano SLIGHTLY freezing is a canon element. Fully freezing did not happen.

Though at this point it doesn't really matter, they are obviously quite powerful...

 

[Samochan]

But the volcano was just as hot in the inside as it was before, bubbling with magma and all. The freezing just happened to freeze the exterior of the volcano or somehow caused the reaction so it didn't spew magma anymore.

The fact still stays, Tink would need to board the ship to even be able to shoot arrows at it. It's way too high for his arrows to even carry that far and with winds buffeting, he'd just miss completely when Halberd is also moving around. Then I tackled the issue of him using teleportation and the need to use magic armor earlier.

 

[Ganonsburg]

It could be argued that the teleporting to specified places is a gameplay mechanic so that you couldn't just teleport everywhere and skip a key part of the game(sailing) completely. Anyway, if he was limited he would just be teleported out of the battlefield to flooded Hyrule, because canonically he's never teleported outside of flooded Hyrule. And then we get into similar problems like Captain Falcon needing a race track, Metaknight needing to dock, etc.

As for the arrows, if the Halberd is really all that big, then it should be an easy target. With winds aiding him (because he does control them), Tink would be able to shoot an arrow farther than he could otherwise.

And considering Metaknight wouldn't even want to use that ship in heavy winds, it's a moot point. He wouldn't be able to control very much when the entire environment is changing around him.

 

[Samochan]

What about Tink needing to use a boat when teleporting? >_> If it were just teleportation spell, couldn't he just use it on land to teleport to islands or couldn't he use it on both occasion? Other Links certainly don't need a boat to teleport around. It might be so that Link could not even withstand the cyclone he produces without the help of the King of Red Lions boat (it protects link when he goes to the hyrule on the bottom of the sea), so that would make sense then when he's unable to teleport around without boat.

I don't think no wind makes arrows travel accurately to halberd ways above that's flying around. <_< Heck, link can change the direction of the wind, but since when does wind blow from the ground back to the sky again?

And he can change the wind direction yes, but controlling the wind and how strong is beyond Tink.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

I'd like to highlight that WW Link was insanely strong with his power-bracelets, the arrows would easily move *very* fast.

A single hit from the ice arrows will bring down the Halberd, and it's too big for him to miss. Then fighting MK is hilariously easy, as MK is tiny, and comparitively weak.

 

[Samochan]

Super strenght has not much to do with shooting arrows. I mean really, zelda can shoot arrows just as fast as Link can lol. Besides if he were to forcibly try and shoot the arrows over their maximum distance, extending the string, he'd break the bow alltogether, either by snapping the string or the bow. <_< The bow is fairly simple as well, not your modern hunting bow either. Using much strenght to shoot the arrows would backfire on link.

And single ice arrow cannot bring down the halberd. It flies without it's wings and unless you destroy the reactor found inside the ship, it won't sink.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

It has no shows of durability that would imply an Ice arrow could not achieve this.

Also, citing gameplay mechanics to support an argument is meh. The equipment in Zelda games is hardly mundane. He found that bow in the Tower of The Gods, after all. It also pierced a tornado to strike the cyclone god.

 

[REL38]

The Halberd gets frozen by an Ice Arrow.
w/e
It surely won't bring it down at all.

Destroying the core reactor brings it down.
Freezing it is like the equivilant of snow on a car

Also, iirc the Angry Vibe for Peach didn't protect from large, physical attacks (usually bosses).
But I believe it protected from energy-like attacks.

 

[Crystanium]

Where is the proof that the Halberd can only be brought down, destroyed, whatever, by simply destroying the core and not the outside?

 

[missingnomaster]

I don't really see how a large patch of ice is worse than losing its wings.

On a side note, I just obtained Bowser's Inside Story. I should have some information on it in a few days. It looks like it could do a lot for Mario characters. I'll put stuff in spoiler boxes though since some people aren't ready to be spoiled yet.

 

[_clinton]

I thought it was decided that PSI was really magic based. Not really psychic.

Ah…no it wasn’t…where did you get that from this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igDF_LaLSls&feature=related

You are aware of what he was talking about when he was referencing that right? He was talking about psychic powers…

Besides…the mother series isn’t using magic at all…one of the things they have a slight mockery towards was old RPGs and their roles/magic…

Since when did I say it made her invincible?

It’s more or less how you think it is a perfect defense really…when all it happens to be is just a parry like how Link guards things with his shield in some Zelda games…

They show one emotion.

That isn’t the point…they are normal grunt troops…and many of them show 2 emotions at various points…

Still…why does it matter that they only show one emotion? That emotion is seen as having the same idea that Peach has…

I'm aware of her parasol, but she didn't guard that good.

I’m aware that she “didn’t guard that good” ^_^
My point it…the only reason she guards so well in SPM is because of game mechs. as in that they wanted her to have it…

Perry =/= SPM Parasol.

Perry=Parasol and that is all that matters…Peach’s parasol in SPM isn’t really shown to be more than a normal parasol you know…

But Perry=Parasol and then some…to bad her breaks the rules dealing with back up…because he is the reason for Peach’s vibe powers in the 1st place (because of his “powerful magic”)

Why not? The mad vibe

How is that going to help again?

I said/meant Bowser's inside story.

You said M&L: RPG…that is a direct reference to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QduJJR-JlnY

And even then looking at Peach’s powers in the 3rd RPG I still don’t see any mentioning of her “weakening foes”

All I see is that she can combine her powers with star spirits (nothing new), and she is once again the sole link to some magical power and its release (god…how many times now has she done that?)

This is completly not the point, just examples.

What is the point then if you don’t mind my asking?

Invincibility ≠ attacking.

It is in this case…don’t you remember the description that you guys keep hugging w/o getting the fact that they have changed it, there is after all a 5+ year difference in between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion…and the only description that really took a big change with what it does is the speed booster…everything else pretty much sounds the same…but whatever…here it is again:
http://metroid-database.com/sm/smmanual.txt

These boots allow Samus to run at a super high speed and make her invincible as she runs through enemies.

The invincibility and such is linked together according to the description…

So? Kagos act as barriers. When Samus runs into a wall, she stops running. The same thing happens when she runs into Kagos. I trust that in reality, the force that Samus is running or flying at would rip the Kago right out of the ground.

Kago isn’t the only foe that isn’t affected by the normal speed booster stuff (did you think I would really only list one example)

And as for your real life thing…I suppose that it would work for this thing as well:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Work_robot

I wonder how many foes I’ll have to show that Samus is unable to harm with the speed booster before people figure out that it isn’t an “invincible dash”

It should also be noted that the way Kagos work seems like a game mechanic to me. From what I remember, they take damage based on the number of times they are hit, so the Power Beam is just as effective as Plasma+Wave+Ice.

Actually…they do have weak points…

It could be argued that the teleporting to specified places is a gameplay mechanic so that you couldn't just teleport everywhere and skip a key part of the game(sailing) completely.

Thank you…I’m glad I’m not the only one who gets it with things like this (it’s the same thing with Lucas’ modes of transportation like the Mr. Saturn PnB (which really is btw…an upgrade to the normal PnB according to the Mr. Saturn and was a gift for Lucas for him saving them), and Ness’ teleport as well…hell I’ve even pointed out that the in game rules are broken on the teleport right in front of the player)

God…even still though Tink’s teleport sort of breaks the rules of back up though if you look right…Yink doesn’t have that worry though (because Yink is the most powerful of the 3 Link’s here in this debate anyway besides that…how he lost some of his stuff is BS IMO still)

A single hit from the ice arrows will bring down the Halberd, and it's too big for him to miss. Then fighting MK is hilariously easy, as MK is tiny, and comparitively weak.

Tech. MK's sword is a "holy one" as well...and his skill with it is quoted as ‘mach speed’ from Sakurai himself...so I don't know for sure if he'll get beat easily...but oh well...

And single ice arrow cannot bring down the halberd. It flies without it's wings and unless you destroy the reactor found inside the ship, it won't sink.

This BS of w/o wings is being brought up again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnoWbngQEQg&feature=related

1:45=Loss of balance without one wing...tell me...what do you think will happen w/o both wings?

Do you really think a ship will fly if it loses its means of "lift"

Who gives a **** if it loss power right away after…that only made it come down faster than what it would have done w/ only the wings gone…

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

New MU.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE ICE DUO Vs. THE HERO OF DREAMLAND

Ice Climbers Vs. Kirby

Vs.

Loser's Round 4, Match 9.

Who will emerge victorious?

Overall Results

Wins +4:

, ,

Wins +3:

, , ,

Wins +2:

:mewtwo:,

Wins +1:

, , , , , , , ,

Neutral:

, , , , ,

Loss -1:

, ,

Loss -2:

, , , ichu:, , ,

Loss -3:

, ,

Loss -4:


Loss -5:

,

 

[_clinton]

Actually...looking again...how does Tink win vs. MK but Lucas doesn't? Hell...how did Tink lose vs. his space furry again if you guys are going to argue him being able to control winds (but w/o getting that doing so sort of breaks the back up rule)

 

[IsmaR]

You said M&L: RPG…that is a direct reference to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QduJJR-JlnY

And even then looking at Peach’s powers in the 3rd RPG I still don’t see any mentioning of her “weakening foes”

Spoiler

1st battle with Bowser, it's directly said that she's weakening Bowser, hence why he's so easy to beat.

Kago isn’t the only foe that isn’t affected by the normal speed booster stuff (did you think I would really only list one example)

And as for your real life thing…I suppose that it would work for this thing as well:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Work_robot

I wonder how many foes I’ll have to show that Samus is unable to harm with the speed booster before people figure out that it isn’t an “invincible dash”

Work robots are clearly a game mechanic. In certain areas, if you would have destroyed them, then there would be no way to progress.

Actually…they do have weak points…

Such as?

@Current MU - Easy win for Kirby.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The Ice Climbers have nothing against Kirby. It's not completely impossible to win from Kirby for the Ice Climbers when Kirby is having no ability, but having abilities is what Kirby's all about. Pretty sure Kirby can make better use of a hammer than the Ice Climbers can.

There's just too many things Kirby can do. The Ice Climbers on the other hand, do not have anything they can do at all.

 

[Samochan]

Where is the proof that the Halberd can only be brought down, destroyed, whatever, by simply destroying the core and not the outside?

Kirby basically destroys the front and the wings but Halberd still stays airborne. Only after the reactor is demolished, the crew moves to abandon ship. But I'd imagine that if the reactor was destroyed, the one that keeps the engines going, it would be enough to drop down halberd cause it couldn't keep airborne with it's massive hull.

Even with size difference, halberd is still huge. A single ice arrow just can't bring it down, when the range of freezing in ice arrows is medium large at best. (arrows shouldn't even make contact, lol at trying to shoot upwards and then try to reach an airborne ship when gravity pulls at the arrow and winds buffet it)

Then I made that post about tink needing King of the Red Lions to even teleport around. If it was just game mech, why not make him able to port around the important islands he has visited (like every island) like every other link can port around places? We haven't seen Tink do it without his ship and the cyclone would very well make him miserable and basically it would be extremely rough lift off and landing for him. He doesn't even seem to be affected by the cyclone when you do it, making it even more believable that his boat protects him from the effects of the cyclone just as he did when you go down to the sunken Hyrule. Not forgetting the person who he got it from was strictly forming above the sea cyclones, so I don't see how this would change when tink got it.

--

No one has still answered the size issue I tackled when concerning kirby chars. >.>

--

Being invulnerable when running with speed booster doesn't make a person/wall/thing unable to stop her. Especially if that thing is invulnerable to damage themselves. :/ Heck, sonic gets stopped by walls too. >_> If an object doesn't get destroyed when she runs at them, that would mean they'd stop her from running when she's forced to collide with them no? Just as she cannot run atop spikes, spiky floor makes her unable to run (however she can collide with spikes without taking damage) or if she's forced to stop running when the floor disappears from beneath her. A collision with an object that isn't directly destroyed in the collision would stop her, however it doesn't mean the collision won't be deadly to the recipent, with her running at that speed and being invincible while doing that, most likely due to the energy speed boosting creates (heck not just likely but probable, she's like a lightbulb in the darkness with the amount of shining energy she creates). Shinespark basically condenses and stores this energy for a short duration of time, enabling her to fly at high speeds and make the energy usable in a more adjustable offensive form (and again being invulnerable while doing so).

 

[Crystanium]

It is in this case…don’t you remember the description that you guys keep hugging w/o getting the fact that they have changed it, there is after all a 5+ year difference in between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion…and the only description that really took a big change with what it does is the speed booster…everything else pretty much sounds the same…but whatever…here it is again:
http://metroid-database.com/sm/smmanual.txt

"Super high speed" was changed to "supersonic speeds." I mean, what is "super high speed"? Maybe the same speed as a super high speed train traveling at 4,000 mph.

The invincibility and such is linked together according to the description…

You are reading far into the text. You may as well also say that Samus is only invincible when she's running through her enemies, since, you know, the Speed Booster makes "her invincible as she runs through enemies."

These shoes allow the wearer to run safely on asphalt and makes flashing lights as the wearer runs along the ground.

I wonder if flashing lights is equivalent or synonymous with running along the ground in the same way invincibility is equivalent to attacking.

Kago isn’t the only foe that isn’t affected by the normal speed booster stuff (did you think I would really only list one example)

I know. I'm an expert at Metroid.

And as for your real life thing…I suppose that it would work for this thing as well:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Work_robot

Feel free to watch the rocket sled video on YouTube as seen on Mythbusters.

I wonder how many foes I’ll have to show that Samus is unable to harm with the speed booster before people figure out that it isn’t an “invincible dash”

She's dashing. She's invincible. If you're using "invincible" to mean "attack," you should stop right now. You look very silly.

Kirby basically destroys the front and the wings but Halberd still stays airborne.

Rockets kept it going, perhaps? That the front and the wings were destroyed only shows that the Halberd is affected from attacks on the outside, and thus is not indestructible.

Even with size difference, halberd is still huge. A single ice arrow just can't bring it down, when the range of freezing in ice arrows is medium large at best. (arrows shouldn't even make contact, lol at trying to shoot upwards and then try to reach an airborne ship when gravity pulls at the arrow and winds buffet it)

I agree. I don't think Toon Link won this round. I was just wondering where the idea that the Halberd was indestructible came from.

For the match between the Ice Climbers and Kirby, my vote goes to Kirby. It doesn't matter if he's 8" tall. He has more efficient abilities to defeat the Ice Climbers.

 

[PowerBomb]

I'd like to highlight that WW Link was insanely strong with his power-bracelets, the arrows would easily move *very* fast.

A single hit from the ice arrows will bring down the Halberd, and it's too big for him to miss. Then fighting MK is hilariously easy, as MK is tiny, and comparitively weak.

Toon Link's a shorty too y'know, and he still shows effort while lifting stuff.

The string would break if that much strength was exerted on it, and arrows fly at 186mph (I think).

 

[justaway12]

It’s more or less how you think it is a perfect defense really…when all it happens to be is just a parry like how Link guards things with his shield in some Zelda games…

Well you sure are quick to assume.

That isn’t the point…they are normal grunt troops…and many of them show 2 emotions at various points…

Still…why does it matter that they only show one emotion? That emotion is seen as having the same idea that Peach has…

Your the one who raised the point, I didn't see the point in it myself. Besides
as I've shown before, they can get their power from Bowser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEpzm9w1vtg#t=1m20s

I’m aware that she “didn’t guard that good” ^_^
My point it…the only reason she guards so well in SPM is because of game mechs. as in that they wanted her to have it…

They are different parasol, completly different, that's like saying every type of gun functions the same way

Perry=Parasol and that is all that matters…Peach’s parasol in SPM isn’t really shown to be more than a normal parasol you know…

Thats stupid, they are different parasol, you can't say they both act the same just because they are both parasols, again, you can't compare to completly different weapons.

But Perry=Parasol and then some…to bad her breaks the rules dealing with back up…because he is the reason for Peach’s vibe powers in the 1st place (because of his “powerful magic”)

Really, because I heard it was from this strange weapon called a vibe spector, oh darn, I guess the game lied to me!

How is that going to help again?

sorry, I have a tendency to not finish sentences, I com back to them most of the time though.

You said M&L: RPG…that is a direct reference to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QduJJR-JlnY

And even then looking at Peach’s powers in the 3rd RPG I still don’t see any mentioning of her “weakening foes”

All I see is that she can combine her powers with star spirits (nothing new), and she is once again the sole link to some magical power and its release (god…how many times now has she done that?)

No, it was definatly Bowsers inside story.

What is the point then if you don’t mind my asking?

Ness and Lucas aren't so special with their "unexplained" powers, that they would surpass regular defence.

 

[warpd]

I don't remember but do the Ice arrows OHKO a monster?
That volcano was not that big.

Kirby vs IC's: If they have cake they can win this puffball over.

 

[Ganonsburg]

It's not just one ice arrow that will bring the Halberd down...it's multiple. Ice makes planes extremely heavy and crashes them. Not to mention if the metal gets cold enough, the metal will split and crack, and enough splits and cracks will make the Halberd unusable. If Tink is constantly changing the wind directions to his advantage and Metaknight's disadvantage, then Metaknight has to worry about controlling his ship before he can attack while Tink can attack freely. After a barrage of ice arrows, the Halberd crashes because of heavy ice and multiple cracks. If the ice arrows aren't enough to crack it, fire arrow and then ice arrow.

 

[Samochan]

I imagine Kirby would then proceed to inhale both the cake and iceys, winning the match.

Ganonsburg, how is tink gonna shoot ice arrows to a flying ship? >_> You just presume he can, but even Tink cannot defy gravity you know. Winds cannot buffet from earth to sky direction either, nor does Tink have full control over the winds, just one basic direction where the wind blows (which doesn't include down or up either, nor can he make the wind curve). He cannot enhance the maximum distance of his arrows either, without breaking his bow or the string, so power bracelets are useless here.

He cannot teleport atop the ship as I explained earlier. And if he wants to stay alive, he needs to expend his magic on magic armor, those combo cannons are very deadly you know. And while he's batoning around, he's easy target to shoot at.

I also mentioned earlier, that in the case where Tink could somehow magically (yea, pun) destroy the halberd, it would crash on top of him and meta could just escape with his own teleport/flying unscatched. >_>

Then he'd need to fight meta himself lol, with little to no magic at all. Course he could carry some blue/granma's soup with him... but then again, this is a hypothetical situation and he hardly has the time to drink any soups when meta's using his "mach speed" sword barrage at him and mach tornado.

 

[warpd]

That would leave TL with a low (if any) magic meter.

I would imagine the big KA-BOOM from that large ship crashing could kill them both.

 

[Samochan]

That would leave TL with a low (if any) magic meter.

I would imagine the big KA-BOOM from that large ship crashing could kill them both.

Even kirby could get away on a wheelie and metaknight just followed him.

But meta can ascend really quickly when flying and his teleportation is even more quick. And if nothing else, he could use the meta quick and escape asap.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Oh, wow. Just realized I gave Kirby two matches in the same round.

I'll have to skip him for the next 2 rounds.

 

[Kewkky]

Umm... Everyone in this thread DOES know that the Halberd is a battleship? TL can shoot ice arrows at a really slow rate of fire (not able to shoot another one until it hits something), while the Halberd is possibly moving at the same speeds as an airplane, as well as shooting TL with all sorts of ******** cannons... TL gets knocked back while aiming, making it so that he never gets a chance to shoot the arrows until his magic armor and bottles of magic power run out.

And he can't attack with the winds. Otherwise, he'd make the giant squid fights in his games a piece of cake, as well as any battle on the ocean extremely easy. Also, he cannot teleport where he desires, otherwise he could teleport to the top of the Forbidden Fortress and avoid having to climb it when he went to see Ganon there the last time they went there.

The Halberd utterly annihilates TL. It has a MUUUUUCH higher rate of fire, and will defrost before the follow-up Ice Arrow hits it again.


Also, I wonder why people keep using assumptions as arguments. Deductions and assumptions =/= canon. *looks directly at _clinton and his Mother boys' arguments*

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Second last match for this round.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE SPACE MAN Vs. THE EVIL BROTHER

Olimar Vs. Wario

Vs.

Loser's Round 4, Match 10.

 

[JOE!]

wario isnt an evil brother....the hell did that come from?

also, Olimar cannot do **** to somethign 9001x his size

 

[Kewkky]

Wario eats the pikmin like he does with his garlic, and bum-rushes poor little Olimar. VICTORY!

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

wario isnt an evil brother....the hell did that come from?

also, Olimar cannot do **** to somethign 9001x his size

Hey!.. I dunno. I'm pretty lame with titles.

 

[JOE!]

new MU, there is nothign olimar can do to anyone who isnt kirby crew (size issue) or ROB

 

[REL38]

new MU, there is nothign olimar can do to anyone who isnt kirby crew (size issue) or ROB

The only reason Olimar isn't drop dead last is cuz of ROB n' Gaymanwatch :/

 

[warpd]

Would Wario even bother to fight someone that small? He probably won't even notice them.

 

[BSP]

Wario wins no contest. He is way too big for oli to even do anything.

 

[JOE!]

The only reason Olimar isn't drop dead last is cuz of ROB n' Gaymanwatch :/

i brought this up back when he had an actual tier list posted, but w/e

 

[Diddy Kong]

What can Olimar actually do? Of coarse he's very small, so he's not gonna hurt many characters. But maybe he has a chance against someone like Jigglypuff or the Ice Climbers? What about his space ship?

 

[missingnomaster]

A brochure for his spaceship states that it has a gun attached that can destroy stars.

Such is not demonstrated in game though. From what I remember, the gun is not used at all.