Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dee Dude]

I mean, Corrin’s backlash is completely justified if you understand where they’re coming from.

-A 6th FE character to the already bloated line-up in 4.

-An blatant advertisement for Fates that happened over many fan picked choices.

-Never played Fates but from what I hear, he’s a bad protagonist.

But you know what? I paid and downloaded him anyway so I could try him out.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a different series essentially. If you like the gameplay of Awakening and Fates in a vacuum and enjoy the tension of permadeath, you'll probably enjoy it. If the characters, story, art, tone, and "waifu" aspect are why you like it, old FE is a different beast and it'll alienate you.

That's a fair reason to dislike Fates that isn't also a complaint on Awakening, it's just not the one I hear most. I hear waifus, tonal inconsistencies, bland main character, less consistent difficulty, the art style. Those are all issues in Awakening and all things I fully expected out of Fates, which is why I skipped.

Although, I will say story isn't a strong point for FE in general, so ruining story by splitting into 3 doesn't seem like a huge deal to me personally.

Basically I was attracted to it due to the grid-based SRPG combat that I've come to love from the Disgaea series and Final Fantasy: Tactics.

 

[Deleted member]

Awakening's story is not the best but it at least isn't a trainwreck like Fates. It's not bad but it sure is disapoointing when compared to other FE plots.
Fates is just bad even when out in a vaccuum

I don't know why they split it into 2 games. FE isn't Pokemon.

Money

 

[WaxPython]

Kid Icarus is the archer and projectile master, giving

My problem is more the adding Icarus to every word and the grating voice.

Simon Belmont was absolutely dreadful, I remember watching it as a kid and even thinking then what have they done to Simon Belmont he's the opposite of what I imagined him to be.

I just personally think the show is dreadful and I don't think the Goku example is that bad he's appeared in genuinely very good games such as fighter z for switch.

If over 40 nintendo games hasn't given him enough reason to get in by bending the rules a bit that's disappointing for me.

 

[MojoRobo]

I really hope Captain N is our wtf newcomer this time.

 

[staindgrey]

Try to consider the circumstances of Smash 4 DLC. People heard that DLC was coming and got super excited that all of the super popular characters that were overlooked for some of the rather strange inclusions present in Smash 4 were getting another chance sooner than expected. In the end we got literally one brand new first-party character. And were they an eagerly-awaited fan favorite? No, they were a character from an already well-represented series that already got two newcomers in the base game and a DLC character and they were added purely for advertising despite having no substantial existing fanbase behind them.

People were pissed with the advertising choice because it was the only first-party DLC newcomer.

Oh I'm well aware of the historical context. I was here. And I was one of those people.

But think of the opposite scenario. What if the Inklings had been put in as advertisement? What if the only first party addition we got was this nameless squid kid avatar for a game that wasn't even released yet when Smash came out? Would that sentiment of "the character was only advertisement" carry over? Or would people completely forget about that because, unlike Fates, they *liked* Splatoon?

Again, and I fear I'm getting redundant here, the reason for Corrin's inclusion is a legitimate complaint, but let's not pretend it's the entire argument, or even the principal argument. People don't like Corrin because they don't like Fates, or they don't like Fire Emblem. The advertisement argument is only used to make their opinion sound more legitimate than simply "I dislike the character".

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

I'm pretty sure only you and like ten other people on Earth would flat-out call them "awful additions". I'm sure plenty of people don't like them for one reason or another, but you've already admitted that the character's fanbases had made life miserable for you in some fashion, which is causing you to project that annoyance onto the characters themselves. You've literally already admitted that your hatred was born of a grudge. You're absolutely welcome to find them uninteresting, but calling them "awful additions" is objectively wrong and a reflection of your own biases. Opinions are welcome, but bold statements proclaiming two characters are awful additions just because of a loosely connected experience you've had is deserving of scrutiny.

Spot on

Hating a character and calling them a bad addition because offense was seemingly taken by a small group of people, while at the same time tarring a larger group of people with the same brush, is an absolute piss weak and illogical excuse to be against the inclusion of a certain character. Boggles the mind sometimes how people think and comprehend things.

 

[Enchess]

I really hope Captain N is our wtf newcomer this time.

Probably the only "4th party" that wouldn't anger me, but I'm one of those who thinks the #1 best reason for inclusion is interesting Nintendo history, and Captain N is certainly that.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I really hope Captain N is our wtf newcomer this time.

I don't know if we're going to get one of those this time. Seeing as how the majority of the characters have been popular fan picks so far, including the echoes, and arguably Simon. We probably won't get a 'wtf' character.

 

[Moydow]

I could write a million pages on what I did or didn't like about Fates or Awakening (when you take everything I've said about them across various parts of the internet I probably have written that much :p ), but basically I think my problems with Fates mostly come down to the three-game split. It resulted in an increasing lack of polish and attention given to the three games, particularly Revelation (Birthright felt the most "complete" and ended up being my favourite, though still not great). I think the concept of showing how the story would change depending on the choices you make is fine, it was just executed terribly. If they did it again and only did two routes, it might not be so bad.

As for Corrin in Smash, I don't like them much as a character, but I'm fine with them in Smash. They at least do something unique compared to a lot of other fighters (not just from FE, though there's certainly far more variety to be had from the series that could produce at least another seven unique fighters to match the seven we already have).

 

[kylexv]

I posted this on Wednesday. Keep in mind that I will still heed to this promise even if it might get leaked beforehand.

You heard it here folks. If one of these happens, this will last for two weeks.

• If Banjo is announced tommorrow, I will change my avatar to a literal banjo.
• If Incineroar is revealed, I will change my avatar to Dwayne The Rock Johnson.
• If Isaac is revealed, I will change my avatar to a literal golden sun.
• If Skull Kid is announced, I change my avatar to something Majora's Mask related.
• If a new echo fighter is announced, the avatar I end up with will be flipped upside down.

 

[Heracr055]

Corrin F is pretty cute so I don't have a prob with her inclusion.

 

[Enchess]

I don't know if we're going to get one of those this time. Seeing as how the majority of the characters have been popular fan picks so far, including the echoes, and arguably Simon. We probably won't get a 'wtf' character.

This is actually making me wonder something....

Would people consider my #2 most wanted (Mio Amakura) a wtf character? I don't think of her that way and don't actually think I could be convinced she is.

What about Lip, who has a sizeable fanbase? She wouldn't really be wtf to me either, but I could at least see the argument for it.

What about Saki?

I think personally there are very few options people suggest that I would actually find a wtf addition. Captain Rainbow, eShop bag, Labo, Captain N, Wii safety man, and a virtual boy (yes, I saw this somewhere, I wish I screen capped it) are pretty much the exhaustive list.

People's definitions of wtf character aren't consistent with each other. Some treat it like simply being obscure or not a fighter is wtf.

 

[Jetsurge]

Goodnight. Hopefully there will be some leaks or news about the direct tomorrow.

 

[Starbound]

I've completed all 15 FE games and I'm just going to post my FE tier list and run.

S: Shadows of Valentia; Genealogy of the Holy War; Awakening
A: New Mystery; Shadow Dragon; Radiant Dawn; Path of Radiance
B: Conquest; Thracia 776; Mystery of the Emblem; Sacred Stones
C: Binding Blade; Gaiden; Dark Dragon and Sword of Light
D: Blazing Sword; Birthright; Revelation

 

[kylexv]

's inclusion was pretty much only because of advertisement, which I'm fine with since he was a clone and FE was pretty much unknown in the US at that point.

's inclusion was similar (due to advertisement) but also because apparently Sakurai's dev team wanted him (if anyone could grab the exact source, I would appreciate it.). I guess there were three reasons why this inclusion stung a little bit for me.

1. He was the sixth Fire Emblem character in Smash 4, a Smash game where I felt there were too many Fire Emblem characters already.
2. Despite him being half dragon and having pretty crazy specials, he was still a swordsman. Part of the reason why I felt FE had too many characters is because all of them used swords. This did not help much.
3. With the clones, I could at least say they didn't "steal" the spot of a more popular character. didn't steal 's spot. That would be irrational, since is a clone. But in Corrin's case, his slot could have gone to someone else, like . I get that Sakurai was already planning Ultimate at that point and wanted to save a lot of the popular picks for it, but I felt Corrin was the weakest choice of all the DLC characters.

 

[staindgrey]

Awakening and Fates are the only two FE I've ever played. I kinda wonder what I've missed out on if those 2 are seen as a bit of a low point in the series lol

They're considered low points because they fundamentally changed a lot about what a FE game is. Awakening is actually a fantastic game in a ton of respects, independent of its predecessors, but to someone who'd grown up playing earlier FE games, it might be too different in style and gameplay, and would understandably be off putting. It's like how Dragon Age Inquisition changed too much for my taste, and I prefer playing DA:O and DA2.

Context changes opinions on everything.

 

[CJ Falcon]

I hate Corrin but I see no reason to complain about him now that Ridley and K. Rool are in.

 

[Enchess]

I've completed all 15 FE games and I'm just going to post my FE tier list and run.

S: Shadows of Valentia; Genealogy of the Holy War; Awakening
A: New Mystery; Shadow Dragon; Radiant Dawn; Path of Radiance
B: Conquest; Thracia 776; Mystery of the Emblem; Sacred Stones
C: Binding Blade; Gaiden; Dark Dragon and Sword of Light
D: Blazing Sword; Birthright; Revelation

Wow, I can't say I agree on much here haha.

I liked Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones about even at the top of my list, then Shadow Dragon, then the Radiance games about even with each other, then Awakening.

Skipped Fates and haven't gotten around to Echoes.

 

[-crump-]

I’m a huge fan of FE, and Fates is probably my least favorite of the games I’ve played. Corrin played a pretty huge role in my dislike of the game; I hated how every character in the story basically worshipped him the whole time, despite being a dumbass on many occasions. He is treated as if he can do no wrong, and despite being completely sheltered and naive, everyone turns to him for every situation. That not only damages his character, but it dumbs down the characters he interacts with as well. I also don’t like his design (weird, dragon onesie? and also barefoot?).

Fates in general annoys me with how trope-y it’s characters are. Like, there are some good characters here and there, but then the rest feel like their entire personalities were pulled out of a hat. The writers chose an anime trait they liked and said “ok, that’s the character, finished”.

and I could write an essay on how much I hate Camilla and how poorly she is designed and the negative effect she has on the series as a whole but I won’t right not...

 

[staindgrey]

I've completed all 15 FE games and I'm just going to post my FE tier list and run.

S: Shadows of Valentia; Genealogy of the Holy War; Awakening
A: New Mystery; Shadow Dragon; Radiant Dawn; Path of Radiance
B: Conquest; Thracia 776; Mystery of the Emblem; Sacred Stones
C: Binding Blade; Gaiden; Dark Dragon and Sword of Light
D: Blazing Sword; Birthright; Revelation

Really? Shadows of Valentia is your favorite one? That's really interesting.

Not because I dislike it. I love it. I just don't think I've seen anyone say it's their favorite ever. I don't even think I would, but it's a strong contender.

 

[Enchess]

They're considered low points because they fundamentally changed a lot about what a FE game is. Awakening is actually a fantastic game in a ton of respects, independent of its predecessors, but to someone who'd grown up playing earlier FE games, it might be too different in style and gameplay, and would understandably be off putting. It's like how Dragon Age Inquisition changed too much for my taste, and I prefer playing DA:O and DA2.

Context changes opinions on everything.

Yeah, I think Awakening is a good game, but for me it was effectively the cancellation of a series I loved. I don't consider FE pre-Awakening and FE Awakening onwards to be the same series. That will always make newer FE titles less enjoyable for me, regardless of how good they are. They in a very literal sense killed the series since the popularity of the new direction ensures the old one won't be revisited.

Echoes and Three Houses are interesting to me though. They only look like FE in a loose sense to me, which means that bitter feeling will be dulled when I play them eventually.

 

[L9999]

Ike is really slow for a character that was very fast in his home game), so I just treat their canon counterpart and their Smash counterpart as separate character in my mind.

You know PoR Ike gets doubled by generics as soon as CH4? In RD Ike isn't a speed demon either.

I’m a huge fan of FE, and Fates is probably my least favorite of the games I’ve played. Corrin played a pretty huge role in my dislike of the game; I hated how every character in the story basically worshipped him the whole time, despite being a ******* on many occasions. He is treated as if he can do no wrong, and despite being completely sheltered and naive, everyone turns to him for every situation. That not only damages his character, but it dumbs down the characters he interacts with as well. I also don’t like his design (weird, dragon onesie? and also barefoot?).

Play Gaiden, Echoes, PoR, or RD and Fates will no longer be your least favorite.

 

[Enchess]

You know PoR Ike gets doubled by generics as soon as CH4? In RD Ike isn't a speed demon either.


Play Gaiden, Echoes, PoR, or RD and Fates will no longer be your least favorite.

PoR and RD are too big (map wise) for their own good and certain mechanics (custom weapons) don't really fit in with the rest of the game as well as they should, but they aren't terrible.

 

[Starbound]

Really? Shadows of Valentia is your favorite one? That's really interesting.

Not because I dislike it. I love it. I just don't think I've seen anyone say it's their favorite ever. I don't even think I would, but it's a strong contender.

I love it because I appreciate how unabashedly different it tries to be, yet it still is able to maintain that FE feel.

Holy War is at the top for the same reason.

Wow, I can't say I agree on much here haha.

I liked Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones about even at the top of my list, then Shadow Dragon, then the Radiance games about even with each other, then Awakening.

Skipped Fates and haven't gotten around to Echoes.

I'm one of those few people that didn't start with Blazing Sword, as my first game was a copy of Radiant Dawn that never made it back to the Blockbuster we borrowed it from... It's so hard for me to go backwards to GBA FE because the games just feel lesser: smaller cast, smaller maps, no skills and I don't like the soundtrack. Literally the only thing that saves Sacred Stones from being in the bottom two tiers is L'Arachel.

And I just never got the appeal of Lyn or Hector after being enamoured by Micaiah and Elincia.

...I didn't like Ike either.

...Maybe my tastes are just really weird.

 

[BlueMagician]

This is actually making me wonder something....

Would people consider my #2 most wanted (Mio Amakura) a wtf character? I don't think of her that way and don't actually think I could be convinced she is.

What about Lip, who has a sizeable fanbase? She wouldn't really be wtf to me either, but I could at least see the argument for it.

What about Saki?

I think personally there are very few options people suggest that I would actually find a wtf addition. Captain Rainbow, eShop bag, Labo, Captain N, Wii safety man, and a virtual boy (yes, I saw this somewhere, I wish I screen capped it) are pretty much the exhaustive list.

People's definitions of wtf character aren't consistent with each other. Some treat it like simply being obscure or not a fighter is wtf.

I guess it really comes down to what you mean by a wtf character. With fighters we already have I see people call G&W, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, and Duck Hunt the wtf characters, but they're also the 'historical' characters.

 

[-crump-]

Play Gaiden, Echoes, PoR, or RD and Fates will no longer be your least favorite.

I played Echoes and PoR, I love ’em both. Yeah, Ike and Alm both get a fair amount of MC worship as well, but they feel more grounded and believable as leaders, imo. They have flaws and they own up to them, and they get help from others as wel. Also it helps that those games have better writing and characters but that’s just my opinion of course.

 

[staindgrey]

Yeah, I think Awakening is a good game, but for me it was effectively the cancellation of a series I loved. I don't consider FE pre-Awakening and FE Awakening onwards to be the same series. That will always make newer FE titles less enjoyable for me, regardless of how good they are. They in a very literal sense killed the series since the popularity of the new direction ensures the old one won't be revisited.

Echoes and Three Houses are interesting to me though. They only look like FE in a loose sense to me, which means that bitter feeling will be dulled when I play them eventually.

I fully understand that. I've been a part of the Resident Evil community since the GameCube remake released, and there's always been a harsh divide between "classic RE" fans and "post-RE4" fans. And the fact that the classic RE game style will likely never, ever be revisited leaves a whole chunk of the fan base sour. Especially after the RE2 remake was shown to be in a post-RE4 gameplay style.

All the same, I think you should pick up Shadows of Valentia. It's significantly different from the other two 3DS games in style and gameplay. (If you're familiar with Gaiden, the gameplay is actually significantly different from all FE games.) But that anime influence is more or less gone with a totally new art style, and the characters are far more grounded and endearing than the cartoonish tropes in Fates. I'd say it's also more challenging than either 3DS game, though not as difficult at all as the SNES games.

 

[Enchess]

I guess it really comes down to what you mean by a wtf character. With fighters we already have I see people call G&W, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, and Duck Hunt the wtf characters, but they're also the 'historical' characters.

G&W and ROB are wtf characters for me since they aren't what people would normally even consider a game character. Wii Fit and Duck Hunt both made complete sense instantly to me. I remember on Gematsu saying Chorus Kids were way way harder to believe than Wii Fit and I considered Wii Fit realistically guessable.

For me, no character that I actually think has a chance is a WTF choice.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah man, they're never going to revisit classic FE, it's not like Conquest was all about that, SoV is a remake of Gaiden and FEH exists.

 

[Waluigi is not getting in]

Three years later and people are still complaining about Corrin.

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Shantae is a cute

Very good 10/10 would cute again.

 

[Kaeltor]

Three years later and people are still complaining about Corrin.

Smash fans are never pleased...smh.

 

[monadoboy]

Really? Shadows of Valentia is your favorite one? That's really interesting.

Not because I dislike it. I love it. I just don't think I've seen anyone say it's their favorite ever. I don't even think I would, but it's a strong contender.

I can understand it, SoV was this close to being my favorite, too, if it wasn't for the gameplay. Story is good, characters are fun and memorable, the art is amazing (second only to Kozaki, imo), has the best dub I've ever heard hands down, the music is the best in the series, but the gameplay feels outdated. Maps were too big, high enemy HP severely slowed down the pacing of each battle, some gimmicks like the bogs and witches felt like cheap ways to up the difficulty, and most importantly, level ups and class changes were massive disappointments that killed that sense of growing with your characters that makes me love Fire Emblem in general. SoV had a lot of potential, but I guess they were scared of changing too much. (I haven't played Gaiden, though, so I'm not sure.)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

are all here and that’s all the Captain N love needed to keep us alive...but if they randomly put the actual Captain N himself in then this is the greatest game of all time

Spoiler: Shantae is a cute

Very good 10/10 would cute again.

somewhat disturbed by her as Pikachu in that position (a position only Wario and Snake allowed to be in)...though of course anyone wearing the skin of Pikachu is weird

Play Gaiden, Echoes, PoR, or RD and Fates will no longer be your least favorite.

Echoes is an awesome game (and Clair is the best)

 

[staindgrey]

I love it because I appreciate how unabashedly different it tries to be, yet it still is able to maintain that FE feel.

Holy War is at the top for the same reason.

Holy War is a great game. It's a shame that Nintendo's never bothered to release official English translations for all the SNES classics that Westerners missed out on.

SoV is definitely in my top five, I think, but I've never sat down to really decide what my "FE tier list" would be. I like each one for different reasons, and some carry weight for nostalgia rather than being "the best".

 

[Enchess]

This conversation is making me crave some classic FE. Luckily, I'll soon have Valkyria Chronicles 4, which scratches the exact same itch for me. Seriously, Valkyria Chronicles feels more like pre-Awakening FE to me than Awakening does. That might sound weird with how different it is, but it creates the same feeling for me.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

We can all agree that Clair is an amazing Fire Emblem character...disagree and be forced to learn the truth

 

[Pakky]

Elma could be Captain N...

I'll go, let me get me coat.

 

[staindgrey]

This conversation is making me crave some classic FE. Luckily, I'll soon have Valkyria Chronicles 4, which scratches the exact same itch for me. Seriously, Valkyria Chronicles feels more like pre-Awakening FE to me than Awakening does. That might sound weird with how different it is, but it creates the same feeling for me.

Have you played God Wars? I've been told it's a very good non-FE "FE" game, but it was on Vita. They just re-released it this week on the Switch and I'm thinking of picking it up.