Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Umby]

Why didn’t I say that, maybe it’s because I have things to do outside smashboards?

Never use that as a john. It makes you look really bad when a number of people are opposing your opinion/position. If you took enough time to explain one sentence about frame data vs frame data, it obviously doesn't take a significant amount of time away from the things you do outside of Smashboards.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I've always said to hit her mid jump, because it usually works. If she's started her float, back away.

That's a good idea since if she's facing you, she'll probably run right into a Bair. Although I think Sonic's Fair and Peach's Nair will trade hits...

And yea F Tilt is pretty useful against aerial attacks but it's also fairly punishable if she misses so if you can bait it, you can grab her or something (watch out for her fast jabs though)

Discussing Peach vs Sonic is annoying :/ Fighting on either side is pretty painful and the matches last forever. Sonic's only got one reliable kill move in this match which is F Smash (and D Smash if Peach likes to drop down beside you...which she shouldn't really be doing). His Bair will most likely be pretty stale and if Peach is at a percent where it'll kill her, she'll be very careful and avoid the risk of getting hit by it. Uair kills can backfire pretty horribly if Peach uses her Dair and actually kills you instead since your so high up

Meanwhile, Peach's kill power is rubbish in general. I'm honestly not surprised if Sonic lives to over 160% + (I think one time Sonic was at 220% before I finally finished him off Q_Q)

Just play things safe and be very very VERY careful of dedicating yourself to follow ups and moves which might position Peach in a good place. I can't remember the amount of times I've Up Smashed a Sonic out of Spring to Dair or jumped towards a Sonic whos' hit me with a spindash and Baired him whilst he attempts to Bair me or started a Float and got a Floating Dair in when Sonic has dash attacked me


Also will you people stop arguing x_x

 

[Chis]

Oh, alrightly. I'll mention my reasons next time. Umby, do who ever you feel you know the best about.

 

[Kinzer]

ITT, we assume the ICs MU is 55:45 in the case of perfect play.

If anybody does come up with some WU, they really should emphasize that getting grabbed 3-stocks is game, but we can't take things like human error into account(as much as that makes sense). It would also be unfair to say that when you get grabbed unless infinites are banned you won't die, because yeah sure people make mistakes and mess up every now and then, but you can't rely on that. Is it not possible that if you play to avoid getting grabbed that you can pull through a win?

As for Yoshi, I won't say anything because I really do have no knowledge other than facial stats.

Also Rick, have you seen anything about my "subjectiveness" posts? I know that you're in doubt of what the ratio really is, but for the community's s(te)ak(e) if you volunteer to do the WU you must to capture as much of the community's opinion as possible, in which the majority agree that it is 6:4 Peach's favor.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Well, I don't fight in tourneys, but I basically theorycraft on what Sonic and Olimar do to each other. Also I'm willing to do 1 or 2 extra write-ups.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Double post, but IDC.

How about we update the Samus matchup write-up. It's rather old and outdated. I have half the write-up already here. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7393797&postcount=311

I wouldn't mind revising it.

I'll also do the G&W matchup, and/or rather the Bowser matchup

 

[Kinzer]

Are you not satisfied with the Bowser MU?

I thought I got everything, but we can talk about this if you want.

 

[Jim Morrison]

...Where is the write-up?

 

[Kinzer]

Oh FFS I could've sworn I did the bowser WU.

Well Doc, if I don't get to it by sometime next week you're more than welcome to get one done, but after I'm done with my tourney on Saturday I should start updating more I promise.

All the information you need is posted and still currently reflects the MK though, I wouldn't mind if you somehow made a quick detailed WU out of nowhere, I would be more than happy tp C&P onto my post.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Also Rick, have you seen anything about my "subjectiveness" posts? I know that you're in doubt of what the ratio really is, but for the community's s(te)ak(e) if you volunteer to do the WU you must to capture as much of the community's opinion as possible, in which the majority agree that it is 6:4 Peach's favor.

Hey I'm used to this kind of thing. I do the match ups over at the Peach Boards my opinion certainly isn't always right. I was only saying my personal match up ratio feelings...and I don't know because I personally keep changing my mind. When I do them over at the Peach boards, I normally point out a few things (most of which are obvious just to kick start discussion) and then take into account everyones ratings and reasons and use them. I don't actually input my ratio unless I'm certain my opinion is valid

60:40 seems to be what it is though and I'd probably put it at that because it's not even but anything above is a bit too extreme looking back on things


I wouldn't mind you guys re doing the Bowser match up because I can't see Sonic having much of an advantage, not when Bowser is doing things properly

 

[Kinzer]

Here's the thing about that though.

Sonic can actually get under and past Bowser on something like a SHed Firebreath.

Can anybody else do that?

 

[Jim Morrison]

If it doesn't work on Sonic, why would he do that? Firebreath is useless in this matchup, which makes what you mentioned useless as well.

 

[~TBS~]

three words that can kill us. grab release options. alot of them.

this guy can get us into a tight spot, especially with an ftilt after GR. This defo isnt an advantaged match-up. Bowser might look SLOW, but he isnt SLOW (Sonic Loop of Win). offensiely, other than grabbing, is there any safe moves he can use?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

If it doesn't work on Sonic, why would he do that? Firebreath is useless in this matchup, which makes what you mentioned useless as well.

Fire breath when held on is pretty useless because you can aerial spinshot over and hit Bowser. Fire breath used in bursts can stop Sonic's approaches

I play against someone who is very capable with Bowser and I have a hard time when using Sonic. Bowser is incredibly heavy and lives to ridiculous percents when he DI's/momentum cancels correctly. Getting close to Bowser is incredibly risky due to OoS Fortress. Springing won't do much good since the Fortress and the Spring will normally cancel each other out

Bowser is fast than he first seems and also has good aerial speed. His Side B will grab Sonic out of aerial approaches. So you could space Bairs but if they get shielded, Bowser can easily follow up with something like a Fair or a running grab if you land. And grab releases are evil

The biggest problem in this match up is Sonic's lack of range and kill power, which Bowser has. You won't be gimping him because none of Sonic's moves send Bowser down if he DI's upwards. OoS Fortress will obliterate everything if you hit his shield, including ASC approaches

Recovering is an absolute nightmare against Bowser. Spinshots will get you killed if Bowser follows your movement and since Sonic doesn't auto snap to the ledge, it leaves you vunerable to a spaced D Tilt

I can't see this being in Sonic's favour at all

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't know the matchup much, but I do know both characters. His shield is bread and butter. He uses Up-B out of shield almost always. I'm vouching for at least 50:50. Bowser is indeed faster than he looks, but still not fast enough. His side-B is a good punisher, but it's quite hard to get a hedgehog who's all over the place. Same applies for grabs, you might be grabbed once or twice this match, but if you get grabbed anymore, you deserve it. Down-B is good on the edge, but you probably won't get hit because you can roll away <_<. SDR does actually work better on Bowser, stereotypes are true. Bowser lives longer, unless he gets gimped, but he won't. Infzy frames on up-B makes him near ungimpable.

And if you have Bowser pressured, ASC does hit.
It's basically like this, Sonic racks damage up faster, but kills really late (Don't expect kill with decent DI untill 150%).
Bowser has a hard time hitting, but a hit does good damage. He can do easily 15% with most hits.

50:50, if we are rediscussing Bowser, I'll probably get some in here.

BTW, I'm going to do the Bowser write-up later this evening.

 

[Red Arremer]

I don't know much about Sonic, but I'll throw Bowser's options in here, anyway.

Bowser has his incredibly fast Jab. Unfortunately, many Bowsers underestimate the awesomeness of our Jab. But it's really good, incredibly fast and has good range - for a Jab at least. His FTilt is pretty quick with good range, priority and knockback, so don't underestimate that, too.

Basically, you don't want Bowser on the ground. You also don't want to be in front or above him. This is where he excels. UTilt, USmash and UAir are some of his most reliable killing options and deal a huge amount of damage.

Klaw Hopping and Klaw Dropping can be issues for Sonic - if you get SideB'd, you'll be Bowsercided or get ~20% damage, so be aware of this. It's inescapable.

His shield is godlike, and he has one of the best OoS options - UpB, which has invincibility frames. It most likely will be used retreating to the ledge, so the cooldown is cut off.

Fire probably won't be used much against Sonic due to the fact it's rather laggy and can be punished, so don't really mention it. It, though, probably could be used as an edgeguarding option to throw in a few %s of damage, or for forcing an approach.

Sonic probably won't see many FSmashes. They're only used if Bowser is definitely secure on hitting with it.

I won't even start on the Grab Release shenanigans, lol.

Basically, Sonic has to avoid and run away from Bowser and punish him quickly for wiffed slower attacks. Bowser's quicker than he seems, so don't think you can run in, hit and run away again. He'll get you.

Additionally to this hit and run tactic, Sonic has an extremely hard time killing off Bowser - Sonic's reliable killing options all are rather laggy, and Bowser usually is a master in shielding and powershielding. Sonic also has trouble pressuring Bowser, as the turtle can literally stay in his shield all day long.

Keep in mind that almost all of Bowser's moves are capable of KOing.

If you have any questions, I'm willing to answer.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't know much about Sonic, but I'll throw Bowser's options in here, anyway.

Bowser has his incredibly fast Jab. Unfortunately, many Bowsers underestimate the awesomeness of our Jab. But it's really good, incredibly fast and has good range - for a Jab at least. His FTilt is pretty quick with good range, priority and knockback, so don't underestimate that, too.

How silly of me to forget jab. It's one of the best options against Sonic because it's quick and good to fend him off.

Basically, you don't want Bowser on the ground. You also don't want to be in front or above him. This is where he excels. UTilt, USmash and UAir are some of his most reliable killing options and deal a huge amount of damage.

True, true, this is how you will lose. If you Spinshot over him you can expect U-tilts. To rack your damage up, get him in the air and juggle him for as much as you can. My favorite way to get on his back is Full hop > Spring over his head or shield > Lagless D-air. It's hard for Bowser to punish it because it has about 5 frames for punishment.

Klaw Hopping and Klaw Dropping can be issues for Sonic - if you get SideB'd, you'll be Bowsercided or get ~20% damage, so be aware of this. It's inescapable.

I'm still not convinced that the Klaw is really that useful in this MU. Klaw Hopping is risky, especially when you get U-tilted/U-aired. You're asking to be juggled. Klaw dropping is a good choice to avoid Sonic to punish your landing lag. It's still hard to hit Sonic, because he's pretty thin and fast.

His shield is godlike, and he has one of the best OoS options - UpB, which has invincibility frames. It most likely will be used retreating to the ledge, so the cooldown is cut off.

I believe Bowser is in his shield a lot of this matchup, because Sonic keeps his barrage of attacks going. Up-B is great and it can move. Good shiz, watch out for this.

Fire probably won't be used much against Sonic due to the fact it's rather laggy and can be punished, so don't really mention it. It, though, probably could be used as an edgeguarding option to throw in a few %s of damage, or for forcing an approach.

I can only see Fire happening when Sonic is springing and not going for the ledge.

Sonic probably won't see many FSmashes. They're only used if Bowser is definitely secure on hitting with it.

I won't even start on the Grab Release shenanigans, lol.

I've seen F-smash doing some crazy shiz. Sonic does have a chance to run in, but it's not likely. Grab Release is hard to pull off. You barely have moments to grab.

Basically, Sonic has to avoid and run away from Bowser and punish him quickly for wiffed slower attacks. Bowser's quicker than he seems, so don't think you can run in, hit and run away again. He'll get you.

Additionally to this hit and run tactic, Sonic has an extremely hard time killing off Bowser - Sonic's reliable killing options all are rather laggy, and Bowser usually is a master in shielding and powershielding. Sonic also has trouble pressuring Bowser, as the turtle can literally stay in his shield all day long.

Bowser is quick but you must not forget Sonic is fast too (FD in less than a second ). Running trough could really work. It's done more often as a mindgame though. Run trough your opponent (who most likely spotdodges/shield) and screech stop. Turnaround and F-smash him.

I'll add to this that Bowser is pretty susceptible to grabs because he likes to sit in his shield a lot. U-throw always.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm still not convinced that the Klaw is really that useful in this MU. Klaw Hopping is risky, especially when you get U-tilted/U-aired. You're asking to be juggled. Klaw dropping is a good choice to avoid Sonic to punish your landing lag. It's still hard to hit Sonic, because he's pretty thin and fast.

I'm not sure either, but Klaw has saved my life many times, lol. I still mention it, as said I dunno much about Sonic's options and all. Still chimed it in. Haha.

Bowser is quick but you must not forget Sonic is fast too (FD in less than a second ). Running trough could really work. It's done more often as a mindgame though. Run trough your opponent (who most likely spotdodges/shield) and screech stop. Turnaround and F-smash him.

Just don't get jabbed. =D
Nah, I know about Sonic's speed and his mindgame potential (and dependance of thereof).

I'll add to this that Bowser is pretty susceptible to grabs because he likes to sit in his shield a lot. U-throw always.

And he's big. Grabbing Bowser is pretty easy.

In general in this matchup, Sonic has to keep out extremely. Despite Bowser having some lag, he outreaches and outprioritizes Sonic in pretty much every regard, and Sonic's killing options can end lethal against Bowser if the turtle's player knows what he's doing.

 

[Jim Morrison]

About killing: Sonic isn't good at killing Bowser, but Sonic isn't a pushover, as say Mario, who is of same weight. Sonic has a momentum cancel (Side-B) which works just like G&W's. I've lived to great %'s thanks to this. With Bowser i could live to 120% (depends on what he does). If I keep away above him, his best Killing option is F-tilt. Up-B is probably a bit stale and wont kill at 130% with DI. Smashes are hard to hit with. Klaw can kill at 120% which is probably how I expect Bowsers kills. Sonic should be using D-air for semi-spiking Bowser (this should be used way more often O_o)

Also, how does Bowser fair fare against fare F-air?

I believe he's pretty susceptible to it, but if he shields, up-B OoS works against it I'd say.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Klaw hopping makes me want to laugh but I can't because it annoys me a lot. You can get grabbed really easily from Bowser's Side B if you misspace

I didn't realise you used Bowser Spadefox...I always put you down as...well, a Fox user

 

[Red Arremer]

With Bowser i could live to 120% (depends on what he does). If I keep away above him, his best Killing option is F-tilt. Up-B is probably a bit stale and wont kill at 130% with DI. Smashes are hard to hit with. Klaw can kill at 120% which is probably how I expect Bowsers kills. Sonic should be using D-air for semi-spiking Bowser (this should be used way more often O_o)

Don't forget Down B. If used correctly and at a ledge, it can kill Sonic at ~100%. If you stay away from above him - yes - but he still has his aerials, as well. FAir and BAir can kill both at ~110% (or a bit more), and can both come fairly quick and unexpected.

Also, how does Bowser fair fare against fare F-air?

I believe he's pretty susceptible to it, but if he shields, up-B OoS works against it I'd say.

Multihit can be annoying for Bowser, but since it's low ranged, Bowser can use UpB OoS. Just to put an emphasis on how important shielding is for Bowser - when I played (casually) Melee, I hardly ever used the shield. When I picked up Bowser in Brawl, I soon was able to powershield. I hope you understand why I always mention his shield and his UpB so much. ^^

I didn't realise you used Bowser Spadefox...I always put you down as...well, a Fox user

Back in Smash 64 I was, yes. My nickname has nothing to do with that character, though. ^^

Used Bowser since day 1.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Don't forget Down B. If used correctly and at a ledge, it can kill Sonic at ~100%. If you stay away from above him - yes - but he still has his aerials, as well. FAir and BAir can kill both at ~110% (or a bit more), and can both come fairly quick and unexpected.

Down-B however is incredibly easy to avoid when used at the ledge. You can also feel Bowser just coming to do Bowser Bomb when he's drifting above the ledge.
His B-air is good, but it's also very risky if you miss.
F-air COULD kill at 110%, but that's fresh. I can't remember the last time I had a fresh F-air at 100%, it's basicly what you deal damage with most. You can do a lot of F-airs in a row.

What stages are advantageous for Bowser. I think Battlefield so he can get the opponent above him, but he gets juggled easily too. FD would be decent if your grab release was sweet against Sonic, but it's too hard to grab to let a stage depend on it. Ban Yoshi's Island, cause it's likely Sonics best neutral stage. Invincible Spindash Roll is really annoying, it has lots of priorty, you can't be hit out of it, only clank and fire doesn't hit. The platform in the middle helps both Chars. Sonics recovery gets another boost with the walljump.

 

[Red Arremer]

At the stages, I'd say his best stages are Battlefield and Smashville due to Klaw Dropping and USmash/UTilt/UAir opportunities, Final Destination is okay. Yoshi's Island is Bowser's worst Neutral. So yea, he most likely will ban Yoshi's Island.

Most CP stages kinda have some downsides for Bowser, so he'll probably stick with Neutrals.

 

[MrEh]

Don't get grabbed. Seriously.

And don't attack his shield. Ever.

 

[Jim Morrison]

>:3 His CG needs to be near frame perfect, because a Spring is evil. We're gone in 6 frames after which we get infzy frames.

And attacking shield is never a wise option, unless your a Marth and you can keep tipper >:[

 

[MrEh]

>:3 His CG needs to be near frame perfect, because a Spring is evil. We're gone in 6 frames after which we get infzy frames.

Not really. We have like, a 2 frame window to regrab Sonic, And you can buffer the grab, so it's not that difficult to regrab him.

Just focus on jumping out of his grab, since we can't regrab you from a jump release. (iirc)

 

[Jim Morrison]

Fact is though, Sonic is not going to get grabbed. You should try to grab a Sonic O_o.
It's not as hard as wario, but with Bowsers ****ty range... Yea.

 

[MrEh]

Fact is though, Sonic is not going to get grabbed. You should try to grab a Sonic O_o.

Bowser has issues grabbing everyone man. lol

 

[B!squick]

Bowser has issues grabbing everyone man. lol

Unless it's Peach, hur hur hur.

I played a good Sonic once and it was extremely annoying. Bowser's at his best when predicting and reacting, so the less predictable you can play, the better. Really as long as you don't do the same thing more than 1 in a row, the Sonic player should be able to stay safe and keep the pressure on without dieing. Make sure you REALLY tack on the damage and keep as many kill moves as fresh as possible. Vex's Grab Release thread has a regrab listed for a Jump release. So, yeah, don't get grabbed.

 

[JayBee]

keep in mind that the Invincible spin dash roll will still follow the ten percent rule on the ground, however, aerial moves and moves with laser priority, like marths sword or falco and ROB's B specials have no effect in terms of causing damage. The Only exceptions it seems are Lucario's fully powered Aura Sphere (at high percents I think) and Samus fully powered charge shot, if i remember correctly.

 

[Seagull Joe]

from my experience versin sonics with bowser i'd say the matchup is about 50-50.sonic cant kill good regularly and versin the heaviest character in the game makes things even worst.bowser can kill sonic but has trouble catchin him on ground.in air i'd say bowser has advantage.firebreath also can **** sonic heavily.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Sonic Utilt vs Peach Dair

Who wins? I won't be able to mess with this 'till next week. =o
Soooo, can someone help me out? >_>

 

[Kinzer]

Unless the Peach player has a bad habit of flying into your Utilts with floats, it won't work.

I'd much rather just space Bairs or use Fairs before she comes to me.

Unless you're talking about Peach's freefalling Dair, then I suppose they would trade hits, take or leave some/it.

 

[Chis]

Up tilt OoS > Floating Dairs

Just saying.

 

[Kinzer]

Are you for real?

'Cause if you are, that is something I'll have to keep in mind from now on.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Nair > Any OoS attempts

But then do you wait for the Nair, shield it and try and attack Peach then? But she could always jab/do something else since Nair doesn't have a right lot of ending lag. But if you wait for the Nair, she could Dair again but she might Nair but if she doesn't and ARGGHHH



Up Tilt won't work if Peach Floats out the way and Up Tilt is very dodgy in general vs Dair. I would have said Dair would normally win. I'll check it out properly for you tomorrow but I'd be very careful using it due to it's bizzare ending lag

Also, I thought it was common knowledge that OoS attacks were good against Floating Dairs, which is why I've been telling you to OoS attack me Chis Peachs mostly use Nair straight after a Floating (I certainly do if I expect an OoS attack) or Float away. Or they use SH Dairs which are generally better and give Sonic a fair amount of trouble anyway

 

[DarkDefeater]

What exactly is OoS?

 

[Kinzer]

Either Out of Shield or Out of State.

 

[AHL]

Mario even,Fox even,Falco even,Sheik even,Charizard even,Lucas even,advantaje in Ike Jiggly and Bowser,Wolf even.

 

[Chis]

Mario even,Fox even,Falco even,Sheik even,Charizard even,Lucas even,advantaje in Ike Jiggly and Bowser,Wolf even.

This will be ignored until you give reasons of this, keeping in mind that the chart is based on higher levels of play. Assumptions don't count either.