Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Greenstreet]

That sweet spot is great for staying out on the edge. There isn't much Sonic can do in that situation. I'd rather have GaW's up B to be honest, 1/3 invinvibility frames and mad priority at the same time?
Yer, I'd prefer Game and Watches...plus he can use B moves after....

As for overall recovery they are pretty even so lets move on... (we catch because of versatility)

i tried to for the record.

 

[SonicX580]

I know we just started G&W but do we have enough info to move on?
__________________________________________________________
If we don't have enough info why not brawl G&W instead of debating?

 

[Kinzer]

We're probably close to the full information for G&W, but it would be better if we waited a little bit longer and don't rush things. As for Brawling people who play G&W...they have to be willing first...

Edit: Ah Hell, the whole d*** point of Matchup threads is to debate who would be the "better" character to use!

 

[Tenki]

lol.

Looking for matches on wifi shouldn't be done to "prove" something about the matchup, rather to get a feel of what the matchup is like if you don't have any experience at all.

We don't need to convince them to Brawl us.

GAW is a tough matchup for Sonic, and as of now, I just want to get a wider feel for what the GAW community thinks of it rather than just basing all of the matchup on the matches I've had here and there.

 

[SonicX580]

We're probably close to the full information for G&W, but it would be better if we waited a little bit longer and don't rush things. As for Brawling people who play G&W...they have to be willing first...

Yeah that would be helpful for them to play hey what about I convince them to brawl us?

 

[da K.I.D.]

against down throw, just hold a direction while you try to tech it, if you do, you tech roll in that direction, if you dont you still roll away before the down smash can hit you

 

[Tenki]

Kind of like how advanced Pikachu has PUNISHMENTS for DIing out of D-smash (..yeah, I forgot to mention that lol), GAW has punishments for teching out of D-throw.

Watch out for predictable techs D:

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just wish sonics up b had an attack to it, other than than, its perfect

 

[Kinzer]

Would it be a sort of mindgame if you would actually miss the tech on purpose to change up the pattern?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Kind of like how advanced Pikachu has PUNISHMENTS for DIing out of D-smash (..yeah, I forgot to mention that lol), GAW has punishments for teching out of D-throw.

Watch out for predictable techs D:

down throw to reverse running up smash is rapetastic

 

[Napilopez]

You can def DI out of Sonics Dthrow...

A2ZOMG has a sig that is too awesome.

Obviously G&W has a large advantage, I personally think its harder than MK. But I don't agree with several of A2Z's reasons.

First of all, recovering from below should never be a problem =/ Uair beats out Key, and it has anough horizontal range to hit protect Sonic if they are charging smashes.

Sonic can tech chase G&W pretty darn well.

G&Ws smashes are too good.

In this matchup, run powershield grab. Its your best tool against G&W.

G&W can't juggle Sonic as well as everyone else, because of the way Sonic's dair works. If anything, it makes it easier for Sonic to autocancel his dair into an airdodge+Shield, so Sonic should have no trouble getting back onthe ground, and should really not be getting hit by a Usmash from it.

Hmm... utitlt is rather disjointed... How does it fare against turtle? obviously utilt has significant ending lag and poor horizontal range, but I'm curious. Up angled ftilt?

You can argue the recovery issue back and forth. G&Ws recovery is more offensive. Sonics is mroe defensive. That much at least is clear. But he won't be gimping Sonic very often, I'll say that much. Too many options, and its too safe most of the time. Uair beats absolutely anything above it, and it has good horizontal range if you remain on stage too.

Um powershield slide and grab his fsmash.

So yea. G&W wins because his smashes are ridiculous, and his Bair is a pain. Most of the other reasons I've seen aren't particularly significant. This is another one of those matchups that I think isn't nearly as bad in actual play though

65:35 G&W?

What about stages? Lol just don't pic rainbow cruise...

 

[cutter]

Ok... I'm REALLY confused. Is there some sort of massive invisible disjointed hitbox on Sonic's Uair that I just don't know about? I have never seen Sonic's Uair override G&W's Dair head on.

I've seen the moves trade hits from time to time, but I haven't seen Sonic's Uair completely beat G&W's Dair unless Uair's hitbox came out before the Dair's hitbox.

AFAIK, Sonic extends his hurtboxes on moves like Uair and Utilt, while G&W does not extend his hurtboxes on moves like Dair, Bair, Nair, etc.

Also, some people don't seem to understand how G&W's Uair works. The "wind" hitbox alters gravity, and it completely cancels the momentum of all stall n' fall aerials... including Sonic's Dair.

Tenki also nailed the whole recovery issue right on the head:
Sonic's recovery is better distance-wise because of his ability to use his specials to recover in addition to Up B (no more specials until hitting the ground though)

G&W's recovery is safer (ie harder to edgeguard) because his Up B has invincibility frames, auto-sweetspots the ledge, has a parachute, and it's a hitbox (unlike Sonic's). His Uair is also fantastic at disrupting attempts to edgeguard. The only way you could gimp G&W's recovery is to grab him out of his parachute, don't attack him at all, and let him fall to his death, just like how you can grab Snake out of his Cypher. But considering how the move is an attack and auto-sweetspots, the probability of this happening is unbelievably small (albeit possible).

After that's all said and done, Sonic realistically can't be gimped because he has lots of options for recovering, but G&W can still attack Sonic off the stage to have an opportunity to pile on more damage. Conversely, it's dangerous for Sonic to attempt edgeguarding G&W (even if it's just to rack up damage) because of his disjointed hitboxes, a Uair to blow opponents away, and his amazing Up B.

 

[Greenstreet]

Hey cutter.
Whenever I get lucky enough to hit GaW out of a D-air with Sonics U-air, the situation is usually that I am coming from the side...

The first hit of our U-air has a wide enough hitbox that it can touch GaW without the key hitting back. That's how I pull it off anyway.

 

[Tenki]

Ok... I'm REALLY confused. Is there some sort of massive invisible disjointed hitbox on Sonic's Uair that I just don't know about? I have never seen Sonic's Uair override G&W's Dair head on.

Something like that.

It extends past the tip of his clap animation on the second hit, and the first hit is slightly disjointed up/diagonally, kind of like Fox's U-tilt.

 

[Napilopez]

Ok... I'm REALLY confused. Is there some sort of massive invisible disjointed hitbox on Sonic's Uair that I just don't know about? I have never seen Sonic's Uair override G&W's Dair head on.

I've seen the moves trade hits from time to time, but I haven't seen Sonic's Uair completely beat G&W's Dair unless Uair's hitbox came out before the Dair's hitbox.

AFAIK, Sonic extends his hurtboxes on moves like Uair and Utilt, while G&W does not extend his hurtboxes on moves like Dair, Bair, Nair, etc.

Also, some people don't seem to understand how G&W's Uair works. The "wind" hitbox alters gravity, and it completely cancels the momentum of all stall n' fall aerials... including Sonic's Dair.

Tenki also nailed the whole recovery issue right on the head:
Sonic's recovery is better distance-wise because of his ability to use his specials to recover in addition to Up B (no more specials until hitting the ground though)

G&W's recovery is safer (ie harder to edgeguard) because his Up B has invincibility frames, auto-sweetspots the ledge, has a parachute, and it's a hitbox (unlike Sonic's). His Uair is also fantastic at disrupting attempts to edgeguard. The only way you could gimp G&W's recovery is to grab him out of his parachute, don't attack him at all, and let him fall to his death, just like how you can grab Snake out of his Cypher. But considering how the move is an attack and auto-sweetspots, the probability of this happening is unbelievably small (albeit possible).

After that's all said and done, Sonic can't be realistically be gimped because he has lots of options for recovering, but G&W can still attack Sonic off the stage to have an opportunity to pile on more damage.

Lol actually yes, Sonics Uair does have a massively Disjointed hitbox on the second hit, and its even pretty disjointed on the first. It even beats out Lucario's Dair, but thats very hard to do because it has to be timed and spaced very well. But I've hit PLENTY of G&Ws out of key. Its especially easy if they slow fall it. I'm also pretty sure that Sonic's legs, or at least part of them, don't count as a hurtbox during the Uair, so yea. And even, so it still extends quite a bit past the actual graphics of the attack, but most people don't seem to realize this. The uair can even beat out Link's and Toon Link's dairs pretty easily. Also, the first hit can attack very well Horizontally(Sonic kinda does a split midair).

Actually, Sonic doesn't extend his hurtboxes on several moves, thats a common misconception. Bair, Utilt and uair are all especially disjointed.

You are totally correct recovery wise.

As for the uair, I know that it stops the momentum of stall and fall aerials. The thing is, if Sonic is able to get it out just once, then he will travel down more quickly and cover more distance than people that don't have stall and fall aerials, so its much easier for him to get on the ground than for characters who don't. The fact that you can airdodge into shield makes it much easier to get back down without being hurt, as your only trully viable option against that is a grab.

 

[A2ZOMG]

1) you failed to say how G&W has a better tech chase game.

Better options from D-throw. G&W is better at getting regrabs, if you don't tech, he COMBOS into certain attacks, or he can land a techchase U-smash. Doesn't matter though, what you need to know more is how to deal with him when he throws you upwards, because he's significantly more powerful in that position.

2) Show's how much you know. You can't DI out of d-throw.

I've actually done this recently and it works. You try it yourself.

3)like I said, any good SOnic wont go for the dash grab. We shield grab.

Oh, and did I mention that G&W's Smashes are safe on block, and essentially impossible to powershield if he knows that he can simply charge it for a split second and then instantly release it?

Anyhow, G&W has really good juggling. His Up-B and N-air should reliably hit Sonic out of his D-air, or U-air stall will set up where G&W can punish any attack Sonic does fairly easily. His U-smash has instant charge release and what seems to be invincibility frames during the hitbox. Basically, you do not want to be above G&W no matter who you are.

G&W wins this matchup merely because he has better camping and kills at lower percents. This matchup however is winnable for Sonic if G&W is dumb and tries to be too agressive. I've lost this matchup trying to be agressive, but the matchup goes a lot better for me when I start shieldcamping.

The main time G&W can be agressive is if he has Sonic backed up in a corner.

 

[Greenstreet]

i've never been hit out of dthrow yet...

 

[Kinzer]

Your Tech-retreat game is too good?

 

[A2ZOMG]

i've never been hit out of dthrow yet...

Well, I'm quite sure that if you don't tech, he can D-tilt, F-tilt, or Jab you. Sonic however is too heavy to be D-smashed, and good G&W players know that.

And if he predicts a tech, I'm pretty sure he can get a regrab reliably.

By the way, I'll play this matchup if you request so. I personally hate going against Sonic with G&W, but out of most G&W mains, I'm probably most familiar with this matchup.

Try to see if I'm on AIM or MSN...my PM box is getting a bit full too.

 

[Browny]

I've lost this matchup trying to be agressive,

vs who?

sorry but i think we as sonic mainers can beleive, and rightfully so, that the vast majority of sonic players who dont frequent these boards are horrible Sonic players. if it wasnt someone here, they probably dont know things like ASC, spinshot etc which are really good sonic techs. of course this is provided it wasnt someone from here

Eh im just paranoid... or something. every time someone says something like "ive played good (no-name) sonic players" i just laugh + stop reading there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, some guy who has "zero" in his online tag if I recall correctly. I wish I could remember his SWF identity. I met him on the friend finder while it was working.

Oh yeah and the other reason I lost to him was because of horrible lag. [/johns]

I'm gonna point out, I do better in this matchup with Mario than I do with G&W...because I don't have to work as hard to outgay Sonic with Mario. I mean really, nobody in Sonic vs G&W really wants to approach, because if Sonic approaches vs Shieldcamping G&W, he takes a risk getting hit, and likewise if G&W misspaces an aerial he also risks getting hit.

Oh yeah, and you can't do anything to G&W if he does ledgedrop ->N-air edgecamping.

 

[Kinzer]

Hey A2 the meet-up request was really suppose to target any G&W's who are unfamiliar with the matchup or have doubts of Sonic's metagame.

I just hope that you are better than that, but if you really want we can Brawl just for the lulz.

Edit: Personally I myself have enough information on the matchup, so yeah as I said before, it's really just for learning experience for the other player/to try and prove a dispute wrong/whatever.

 

[Browny]

I dunno, some guy who has "zero" in his online tag if I recall correctly. I wish I could remember his SWF identity. I met him on the friend finder while it was working.

Oh yeah and the other reason I lost to him was because of horrible lag. [/johns]

I'm gonna point out, I do better in this matchup with Mario than I do with G&W...because I don't have to work as hard to outgay Sonic with Mario. I mean really, nobody in Sonic vs G&W really wants to approach, because if Sonic approaches vs Shieldcamping G&W, he takes a risk getting hit, and likewise if G&W misspaces an aerial he also risks getting hit.

Oh yeah, and you can't do anything to G&W if he does ledgedrop ->N-air edgecamping.

does nair come out on frame 1?

when people try that vs me i just drop lots of springs on thier heads. get stage-spikes sometimes

 

[Napilopez]

Nair is frame 7 according to the frame data on the tactical boards. Even if its wrong, I dooubt it comes up on frame 1. G&Ws attack tend to have some startup, its just that once theyre there, the hitboxes just don't go away D: . Or, the move has IASA frames, or charge releases are instant, lulz.

Ledgedrop->Nair is if Sonic is trying to recover from below? If thats the case, we've already gone over how Sonic's uair beats out anything above it if used right.

I might be going home tommorow, perhaps I could play you.

Powershielding G&Ws smashes isnt that impossible though. How much pushback do his smashes have on regular shielding though? Because Sonic slide a significant distance when shield cancelling a run, so yea, I've never had trouble with shield grabs.

I don't really know how you can camp against Sonic though, Sonic is like the anti camper. But I mostly agree with the rest of your reasoning.

But yea I definitely think someone should play someone. Chances are if you played a Sonic back when friend finder was working... well, there weren't that many good Sonics anyways. As a community, most of us are still becoming simply better players than better Sonics. So yea, this is one of the only places you'll find Sonics that actually use his techs faints etc effectively. I think the importance of playing someone from the Sonic boards, is not about who wins or loses, but rather about learning stuff about the match-up, as Tenki pointed out. I feel there are misconceptions and lack of undersanding on both sides that we'd have to test out.

 

[Tenki]

I dunno, some guy who has "zero" in his online tag if I recall correctly. I wish I could remember his SWF identity. I met him on the friend finder while it was working.

Oh yeah and the other reason I lost to him was because of horrible lag. [/johns]

I'm gonna point out, I do better in this matchup with Mario than I do with G&W...because I don't have to work as hard to outgay Sonic with Mario. I mean really, nobody in Sonic vs G&W really wants to approach, because if Sonic approaches vs Shieldcamping G&W, he takes a risk getting hit, and likewise if G&W misspaces an aerial he also risks getting hit.

Oh yeah, and you can't do anything to G&W if he does ledgedrop ->N-air edgecamping.

Oh, yeah, he's decent.

I don't know how you'd lose against him in lag lol.

Aggressive/approaching players have the advantage in lag XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

Kind of like how advanced Pikachu has PUNISHMENTS for DIing out of D-smash

When did this happen?!?!?! Pikachu is still in lag when you get out of the d-smash. Hell, I've gotten free grabs as soon as the d-smash was over.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Anyhow, G&W has really good juggling. His Up-B and N-air should reliably hit Sonic out of his D-air

Which is why Sonic shouldn't be dairing if he is low. The point of using the dair is not to try and attack you (since it has low priority to start with), but rather use the momentum given by the dair. After that I just airdodge so that I'm moving really fast with invincibility frames (similar to how Yoshi's airdodge when using their second jump).

or U-air stall will set up where G&W can punish any attack Sonic does fairly easily.

Eh, not really. Up B->dair->airdodge isn't really affected by uair stalling (actually, uair stalling gives us our B moves back). Though admittedly it's still not that safe, but it's a pretty reliable way to get past uair stalling specifically.

His U-smash has instant charge release and what seems to be invincibility frames during the hitbox. Basically, you do not want to be above G&W no matter who you are.

This is true, but Sonic has like a billion ways to change momentum (all of his specials and dair.) Though if Sonic has already used his up B...he's in trouble since he can only dair to stall momentum, which is very predictable.

But at least it's not guranteed like some people make it out to be.

G&W wins this matchup merely because he has better camping and kills at lower percents. This matchup however is winnable for Sonic if G&W is dumb and tries to be too agressive. I've lost this matchup trying to be agressive, but the matchup goes a lot better for me when I start shieldcamping.

This is true, but Sonic is never forced to approach anyway. G&W has no real way of camping Sonic (even bair is punishable if the Sonic predicts it). But yeah, it's still really tough because of the killing thing, and especially because G&W racks damage faster in this matchup so...that could force Sonic to approach due to G&W having a percentage lead.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ledgedrop->Nair is if Sonic is trying to recover from below? If thats the case, we've already gone over how Sonic's uair beats out anything above it if used right.

All I can say is LOL.

Or more accurately, by that time, he'll be back on stage and have the positional advantage if you are really trying to U-air him.

OR, the other thing that will happen is G&W will ledgedrop below Sonic and Up-B into him.

G&W's ledgecamping is in fact one of the reasons besides his already gay enough moveset that makes him top tier btw. Because it's pretty broken and if he does it right, pretty much nobody can punish it. This is another reason why G&W has better recovery than Sonic, because he is a lot better at defending himself at the ledge.

There is one thing you can try to do, and that is to B-air him if you think he's going to do ledgeHOP N-air edgecamping (which autocancels on the ledge btw) but meh.

Powershielding G&Ws smashes isnt that impossible though. How much pushback do his smashes have on regular shielding though? Because Sonic slide a significant distance when shield cancelling a run, so yea, I've never had trouble with shield grabs.

Everyone slides like a mile away when they have their shield hit by one of G&W's Smashes. You can't rely on powershielding them because he can simply charge his Smash for a split second and release.

I don't really know how you can camp against Sonic though, Sonic is like the anti camper. But I mostly agree with the rest of your reasoning.

Shieldcamping is waiting for Sonic to approach you while you shield, and then attacking him. It works in this matchup since Sonic really can't punish it effectively since G&W can Up-B away either if he thinks the situation looks bad, or to punish Sonic's attacks.

But yea I definitely think someone should play someone. Chances are if you played a Sonic back when friend finder was working... well, there weren't that many good Sonics anyways. As a community, most of us are still becoming simply better players than better Sonics. So yea, this is one of the only places you'll find Sonics that actually use his techs faints etc effectively. I think the importance of playing someone from the Sonic boards, is not about who wins or loses, but rather about learning stuff about the match-up, as Tenki pointed out. I feel there are misconceptions and lack of undersanding on both sides that we'd have to test out.

The guy I played on the Friend Finder is GOOD.

But yeah, try to catch me as I come home from school. I come home from school at around uh...2:00PM PDT. Don't expect to have fun playing me. I won't. XD

Oh, and you live in...New York? I live in SoCal. *prays for low lag*

Oh yeah and Kinzer, I'll gladly play you. I think lol, I played you last time on the AIB ladder cause I was looking for someone near my area...

 

[Dark Sonic]

All I can say is LOL.

Or more accurately, by that time, he'll be back on stage and have the positional advantage if you are really trying to U-air him.

Uair outranges nair. If you were going to hit me with it...you get hit instead. If you were just using it to fake me out...MINDGAMES!!lol. But if I predicted this, I could bair instead and still get you, or maybe airdodge, or maybe just grab the ledge.

OR, the other thing that will happen is G&W will ledgedrop below Sonic and Up-B into him.

Well, that depends on how high Sonic is when he up Bs, since he may still be invincible by that time, or he may just airdodge.

G&W's ledgecamping is in fact one of the reasons besides his already gay enough moveset that makes him top tier btw.

Describe how. Although there is little risk to G&W, there is also little risk to Sonic just springing above you over and over.

Just sayin'

Because it's pretty broken and if he does it right, pretty much nobody can punish it.

But he's also not hitting Sonic.

This is another reason why G&W has better recovery than Sonic, because he is a lot better at defending himself at the ledge.

Well, that's true, but at least Sonic's recovery is more versitile and allows him to turn edgeguards around more easily (since you're still relatively close to them after you pass them) and get more gimps. The distance also lets him go out farther for edgeguards. But I'm not going to get much further into this, since neither of them will be effectively edgeguarding each other anyway.

There is one thing you can try to do, and that is to B-air him if you think he's going to do ledgeHOP N-air edgecamping (which autocancels on the ledge btw) but meh.

Meh, I'd rather f-smash (which does out prioritize your nair btw).

Everyone slides like a mile away when they have their shield hit by one of G&W's Smashes.

And Sonic slides like a mile foward when he shields out of a run. But yeah, he'll still be pushed out of grab range anyway (but he may be able to f-tilt out of shield. I should probably test this out, it looks like he's in range too, but it might not be fast enough)

You can't rely on powershielding them because he can simply charge his Smash for a split second and release.

True.

Shieldcamping is waiting for Sonic to approach you while you shield, and then attacking him.

Can Sonic not do the same thing? And Sonic does have some effective ways to approach you know (none of them are unstoppable, but they require different counters for the most part so you'd have to predict which one he's using in order to counter it).

It works in this matchup since Sonic really can't punish it effectively since G&W can Up-B away either if he thinks the situation looks bad, or to punish Sonic's attacks.

Grab? Sonic's grab game is actually good, and he may not have G&W's amazing juggling, but he is still pretty good at it (he's beating all of your aerials with uair afterall, and he's fast enough to grab you after a dair and throw you up again).

Up-Bing away with G&W is not as safe as you'd think (just like up Bing with Sonic is situational), since Sonic can actually juggle G&W too.

But yeah, try to catch me as I come home from school. I come home from school at around uh...2:00PM PDT. Don't expect to have fun playing me. I won't. XD

Oh, and you live in...New York? I live in SoCal. *prays for low lag*

I live in orlando if that's any better.

 

[cutter]

Meh, I'd rather f-smash (which does out prioritize your nair btw).

Sonic's Fsmash is a disjointed hitbox?

 

[IceDX]

Sonic dosnt out prioritize GaW in any way a good GaW is not imposible but Sonic has a 20/80 on it IMO

This shoult even be disscused BTW.............

 

[Tenki]

Sonic's Fsmash is a disjointed hitbox?

Sort of - it extends past his graphics just a bit. Sonic's tipper F-smash extends juuust slightly past what you see.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's Fsmash is a disjointed hitbox?

It hits you after your nair, but before you hit the ground. It out ranges your nair. So I just reverse stutter step (pivot backwards lol) so that you're nair misses and I hit you before you can move.

And yes, f-smash also does have a very small disjointed hitbox. But the most important part about it is that the hitbox and hurtboxes are only out for a very small amount of time, allowing you to catch even the smallest amount of lag (since the without putting yourself in danger of getting hit (since your hurtbox isn't out for very long.) The lag in this case is the lag right after the fishes disappear, but before G&W lands (actually, nair has enough landing lag for him to get hit by it anyway).

If it's any consolation I still think the match is like 70:30 G&Ws favor. But people keep making it sound as if G&W vs Sonic is like Metaknight vs Captain Falcon.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think GaW is rounded up. We should continue with next char

 

[SonicX580]

Which character would that be Gf2tw?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Obviously Ness?

 

[Chis]

Needs percentages first.

I say 40:60 as I don't think it's that bad.

Light, DI out of the turtle, Sonic can't be juggled that much, lag and other stuff. Can't be worse then Luigi.

 

[SonicX580]

Obviously Ness?

Oh wait I see the first page never mind oh and did you know that Ness's recovery of his PK thunder can be easliy intercepted when he uses PK thunder mess up the attack and he will not recover because his PK thunder can go through only once unlike Lucas's PK thunder.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Chis, I'd settle with 40:60.

And yea SonicX, it not much of intercepted. If your hit, PKT2 just continues. Rather use your PEEKAY spring on his PEEKAY thunder. I don't know what moves clank with PKT2 yet. We'll have to find out.

 

[SonicX580]

Chis, I'd settle with 40:60.

And yea SonicX, it not much of intercepted. If your hit, PKT2 just continues. Rather use your PEEKAY spring on his PEEKAY thunder. I don't know what moves clank with PKT2 yet. We'll have to find out.

Yup and I can help with this discussion because my rival is a mainer of Ness and I have some knowlegde from brawling him but bad news he moved out in a week after I joined Smash Boards but I still remember how he played it was back then when I was confused on which character I should main that was when during my losing streak or "Steak" but when I choosed Sonic I started a winning steak so can I help?