Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Villi]

Sonic is tall enough on the ground to be hit by Zelda's rising fair and bair, both. He dies at around 112 with no DI from an up tilt, and dtilt (5 frames) sets up for it. Training mode registers them as consecutive hits, so good luck reacting to it if it's not a true combo. Dtilt locks Sonic somewhere around 40%, and if it happens near the edge, down smash (4 frames) kills Sonic at earlier percents than up tilt. If it doesn't kill him, it sends him low enough to set him up for a spike (which can sweet spot) or a nair to send him too far to recover without his double jump.

Sonic's up throw doesn't lead into up b to up airs if you know to DI behind him. Sonic's down throw doesn't lead into tech chases if you know you can just DI up and cover your *** with an LK/air dodge. Fthrow and bthrow don't really have too many follow ups. Being grabbed by Sonic is the least of my worries as all of his throw animations last long enough for me to decide which DI is best to use.

I don't recall having to recover with Zelda's up b very often against Sonic. Most/all of Sonic's attacks send at an upward trajectory without the help of good DI and since Zelda is floaty anyway, I can often reach the edge or stage with just a double jump. Occasionally I'll use FW to warp passed a follow up I see coming.

If Zelda predicts Sonic correctly while he's in the air, he's as good as up smashed, nair'd, or killed under 100% by up air. Ground approaches can be out prioritized by fsmash, which has some start up but very little cooldown. She can cover herself with a shield; downtilt, which comes out in 5 frames, clanks with Sonic's ground approaches and has nearly no lag; or Naryu's Love which has invincibility from frames 4-12 and can be JC'd out of shield. Her jab comes out in 11 frames, but is disjointed and has no lag so it can also be ued to stop Sonic's approaches while being difficult to punish. If Zelda remains on the ground and uses attacks with little lag, Sonic is going to have a hard time pressuring her without being punished.

Usually Sonic kills me by pissing me off. >.> Most of Zelda's aerials can be punished before she hits the ground. Tricking me into a fresh fsmash usually costs me a stock. Otherwise, I don't die very often until very high percents from a fair, bair, or some other attack near the blast zone. Up airs usually only hit me at low percents, and at higher percents are easy to avoid.

Spin dash trickery is probably Sonic's most used approach. It's hard to attempt to stop it from coming without just being hit when Sonic is in good spacing, but after shielding it you have opportunities to punish. Figuring out how Sonic likes to get away with spindashes is a lot like learning an opponent's projectile pattern -- you just have find the openings you can capitalize on. You can bait Sonic into bad spacing to make him easier to punish or just stop him entirely, or you can gradually approach him as he runs around you... doin stuff. Sonic's tilts are pretty good.

I think the matchup is 50-50. While Sonic can lay on the shield pressure pretty thick, Zelda can make it as hard for him to hit her as he can make it hard for her to hit him. What Zelda lacks in approach, she makes up for in defense and killing power.

 

[Napilopez]

1) Sonic is tall enough on the ground to be hit by Zelda's rising fair and bair, both. He dies at around 112 with no DI from an up tilt, and dtilt (5 frames) sets up for it. Training mode registers them as consecutive hits, so good luck reacting to it if it's not a true combo. Dtilt locks Sonic somewhere around 40%, and if it happens near the edge, down smash (4 frames) kills Sonic at earlier percents than up tilt. If it doesn't kill him, it sends him low enough to set him up for a spike (which can sweet spot) or a nair to send him too far to recover without his double jump.

2) Sonic's up throw doesn't lead into up b to up airs if you know to DI behind him. Sonic's down throw doesn't lead into tech chases if you know you can just DI up and cover your *** with an LK/air dodge. Fthrow and bthrow don't really have too many follow ups. Being grabbed by Sonic is the least of my worries as all of his throw animations last long enough for me to decide which DI is best to use.

3) I don't recall having to recover with Zelda's up b very often against Sonic. Most/all of Sonic's attacks send at an upward trajectory without the help of good DI and since Zelda is floaty anyway, I can often reach the edge or stage with just a double jump. Occasionally I'll use FW to warp passed a follow up I see coming.

4) If Zelda predicts Sonic correctly while he's in the air, he's as good as up smashed, nair'd, or killed under 100% by up air. Ground approaches can be out prioritized by fsmash, which has some start up but very little cooldown. She can cover herself with a shield; downtilt, which comes out in 5 frames, clanks with Sonic's ground approaches and has nearly no lag; or Naryu's Love which has invincibility from frames 4-12 and can be JC'd out of shield. Her jab comes out in 11 frames, but is disjointed and has no lag so it can also be ued to stop Sonic's approaches while being difficult to punish. If Zelda remains on the ground and uses attacks with little lag, Sonic is going to have a hard time pressuring her without being punished.

Usually Sonic kills me by pissing me off. >.> Most of Zelda's aerials can be punished before she hits the ground. Tricking me into a fresh fsmash usually costs me a stock. Otherwise, I don't die very often until very high percents from a fair, bair, or some other attack near the blast zone. Up airs usually only hit me at low percents, and at higher percents are easy to avoid.

5) Spin dash trickery is probably Sonic's most used approach. It's hard to attempt to stop it from coming without just being hit when Sonic is in good spacing, but after shielding it you have opportunities to punish. Figuring out how Sonic likes to get away with spindashes is a lot like learning an opponent's projectile pattern -- you just have find the openings you can capitalize on. You can bait Sonic into bad spacing to make him easier to punish or just stop him entirely, or you can gradually approach him as he runs around you... doin stuff. Sonic's tilts are pretty good.

I think the matchup is 50-50. While Sonic can lay on the shield pressure pretty thick, Zelda can make it as hard for him to hit her as he can make it hard for her to hit him. What Zelda lacks in approach, she makes up for in defense and killing power.

So far I'm loving this discussion, its probably one of the most educated and intelligent ones from the opponents side that we've seen :D! But i must adress some points.

1) At 40%, spikes are unlikely to kill Sonic. UpB is just too vertical. Second, Sonics uair will beat out Zelda's Dair in speed(frame 14 vs frame 5) and just because spaced appropriately, there isn't a move that will beat out Sonic's Uair from above, with perhaps one or 2 exceptions. If sonic doesn't have his double jump after an Nair, he will likely use homing attack to recover. Thing is this scenario is quite situational, as Sonic will rarely need his double jump to recover. SideB is used first and is as effective or more effective than a double jump.

2) This can be applied to several characters who can tech chase. While of course you have options against it, Sonic has a strong potential to tech chase you, which is what I'm taking into account. About the uthrow to Uair, Sonics have also become accustomed to people doing that, and can retaliate appropriately. However, it is definitely smart for anyone to DI, lol. I just have found, personally, that as people DI my throws, it makes them predictable as well in a way, so I can often counter the DI effectively. If you happen to DI the Bthrow for example, then that just will likeley put you above sonic, which is Zeldas weakest point, in the air, and arguable Sonics best. But thats more of a player thing not a matchup specific thing. You should be wary of grabs though, because Sonics pummel is one of the most damaging, and again, even if you DI, there are still several setups. Throws will typically lead to at least 20% from Sonic, usually more if its a uthrow at low/mid percentages. Sonic's grab game is one of his key assets, and probably his most underestimated one.

3) This is true. I was merely pointing out that if you do have to use UpB, then you're in trouble. However, Sonics speed can give you trouble getting back on stage safely, and his offstage game is good anyways, even if you don't have to use UpB.

4) Prediction is a player thing though, not so much of a key part of the character matchup itself =/ Sonic doesn't damage well the people below him, but his spring certainly allows him to escapee very nicely from dangerous situations. Sonic simply should be wary of using Dair, because he will totally eat a usmash/utilt/fsmash. Zelda's Jab can be dealt with quite well by running shields for my experience. Again, almost any character can put a halt to Sonic's normal grounded approaches, but the reason Sonic is so great at approaching is not because he has uber priority on such approaches, but because of his speed and the fact that his most common approaches are almost all cancellable, which is why approaching for Sonic isn't an issue in most cases. Sonic won't be using SDR(the roll from sideB and DownB) to approach, unless making use of SideB invincibility frames, or by tricking you from an ASC.

5) Spin Dash trickery is indeed his usual approach, but not always into an attack, but rather a grab from a SideB or ASC cancel. So its something you should be wary of.

But I agreed with most of your points even if it seems like I refuted alot of them XD. I agree with a 50-50 consensus. Although I might personally be leaning toward 55:45 Sonic, I think if the Zelda knows Sonics approaches well enough it might go more toward 50:50.

 

[Napilopez]

Double Post to quote Alopex's input from the thread on the Zelda boards!

This is Sonic's match. I play against very often offline against a good Sonic, and I always have to use Sheik.

I know this isn't the Sheik vs Sonic match-up, but I think most Zelda players will prefer to use Sheik against Sonic. It's just so much easier (at least for me...).

Zelda is slow. Sonic is fast. Din's Fire doesn't damage a Spindashing Sonic, it just pings with it. In general, Sonic has a good approaching game against Zelda, which is something Zelda isn't quite used to seeing. Plus Zelda is very floaty and Sonic doesn't really have any problems comboing her from below. And below Zelda is the safest place to be. Since Sonic has many tricks that rely on the opponent being throw above him, Sonics have it good with Zelda being very defenseless below her.
Her light weight means Sonic's UpB Uair combos will kill her that much easier.

Zelda has a much better ground game than Zelda, but Sonic is able to camp Zelda with ease while Zelda can't approach worth crap (this is becoming a common theme...). What gives Sonic the edge over other characters is the fact that he can actually approach her. Spindash mindgames work surprisingly well. Spindash UpB Dair, Spindash UpB Homing Attack, Spindash combos... the Spindash is what screws up Zelda's defense game.
Which is why I go Sheik. Needulls pwn Sonic wit eezy. And Nair pwns Homing Attack. Oh Sheik...

- If you're going to kill a Zelda though, don't do it from the ground. Plain and simple. Zelda will beat you. She has way more range and power.
- You want to UpB Dair into her sparingly. I know you guys love this, but Zelda's UpSmash wrecks your Dair.
- Sonic is medium weight and has a great recovery, so he can live longer than most people against Zelda.
- You can't gimp Zelda's recovery with a Dair to UpB like you can a lot of characters. She has too much recovery distance with Farore's.
However, timing a homing attack to hit Zelda at the Farore's start-up can be very effective. It is kind of hard to time, though. You need to read your opponent well.
- You don't want to use the Homing Attack when returning to the stage. A good Zelda will just time it so that you'll home yourself straight into a Lightning Kick.
- Your Dair is useful in getting you down to the ground quickly. This is good because it gets you away from being above Zelda much faster. And you'll land lagless if you're high enough, so there's not much drawback to using the Dair to flee to the ground.
- Be careful with you UpB recovery. The path is very easy to predict, and if you're coming from below the stage you just might end up putting yourself into an easy Lightning Kick spot.
- Grabbing Zelda is pretty key for Sonic since it's his best way of getting Zelda in the air, but Zelda's grab outranges Sonics, so this could be tricky.

So yeah... I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty of things, but this will do for now. I think you get the picture.

I'd say it's 60-40 Sonic.

I know my post makes it seem like Sonic has a bigger advantage, but Zelda's ground game really is that powerful in this case. A Zelda with proper spacing has more than enough ground advantages against Sonic to get the win. So it's Sonic advantage, but it's perfectly winnable by Zeldas. They just need to be very attentive to the Spindash approaches and try to punish accordingly.

This was a very nice breakdown. I agree with practically all of it. You didn't mention SideB and Aerial Spin Charge shield cancels but its OK =P.

A couple of points:

-Because zelda is so slow, and sonic great airspeed(although horrible acceleration), it is usually safe for Sonic to float back down to ground. Sonic mains are often impatient, and will just go for the Dair, but you really don't want to eat a hyphen smashed usmash do you?

-Recovering from Below should never really be a problem for Sonic, his uairs first hit covers him very well horizontally and is very disjointed, while the second beats out virtually any move above it.

-Indeed grabbing Zelda is key. Zelda's grabbing range being superior to Sonic's shouldn't be an issue. Sonics grabs are rarely from simply standing, they are usually from either an ASC cancel, SideB cancel, or from a shield cancelled run. All of which give you at least the distance of a standard running grab.

Those are my only three caveats, overall a very nice analysis.
-

 

[Villi]

1) At 40%, spikes are unlikely to kill Sonic. UpB is just too vertical. Second, Sonics uair will beat out Zelda's Dair in speed(frame 14 vs frame 5) and just because spaced appropriately, there isn't a move that will beat out Sonic's Uair from above, with perhaps one or 2 exceptions. If sonic doesn't have his double jump after an Nair, he will likely use homing attack to recover. Thing is this scenario is quite situational, as Sonic will rarely need his double jump to recover. SideB is used first and is as effective or more effective than a double jump.

I meant to say that dtilt will lock sonic at 40% This can cost him 20-30% or more depending on how unlucky he is from the 50% trip rate. When it looks like he's gonna escape, he gets hit by a fresh dsmash which causes 12% This should put him near 100% and send him off at a low trajectory. Hm, but maybe Sonic's still not as gimpabble as I thought. The whole speed thing doesn't really matter as far as edge guarding as you have plenty of time to wind up 14 frames as Sonic attempts to recover. Zelda's lightning spike for the record is the 3rd strongest spike in the game and I've traded hits with Toon Link's up air while spiking him to his death. Sonic probably wouldn't die ever from a sour spike unless you footstooled him too.

Edit: Does Sonic die if you grab release him out of his up b? Or can he use some other b move to save himself? Also, I think he has trouble sweet spotting the ledge, so if he's forced to try Zelda has the option of grabbing, ledge hogging, or ledge hop dairing.

 

[Napilopez]

I meant to say that dtilt will lock sonic at 40% This can cost him 20-30% or more depending on how unlucky he is from the 50% trip rate. When it looks like he's gonna escape, he gets hit by a fresh dsmash which causes 12% This should put him near 100% and send him off at a low trajectory. Hm, but maybe Sonic's still not as gimpabble as I thought. The whole speed thing doesn't really matter as far as edge guarding as you have plenty of time to wind up 14 frames as Sonic attempts to recover. Zelda's lightning spike for the record is the 3rd strongest spike in the game and I've traded hits with Toon Link's up air while spiking him to his death. Sonic probably wouldn't die ever from a sour spike unless you footstooled him too.

Edit: Does Sonic die if you grab release him out of his up b? Or can he use some other b move to save himself? Also, I think he has trouble sweet spotting the ledge, so if he's forced to try Zelda has the option of grabbing, ledge hogging, or ledge hop dairing.

Ahh my bad about the dtilt thing. And yea, Sonic really is tremendously hard to gimp, because of the nature of his recovery and its odd trajectory and invincibility frames here and there and whatnot. As for the speed thing, I guess you may be right, but Don't foget Sonic ca use his Uair as well as he tries to recover. At 100% Lightning spike would probably kill Sonic, but again I will mention Sonics Uair, which has a significantly more range than TLs Uair, and is more disjointed as well. I have yet to encounter a Dair that beats out Sonic's Uair. The closes to this is Lucario's Dair, but thats just because it comes out quicker than the Second hit of the Uair does.

Sonic does die from a gab release, like snake. He is placed into a free fall state and can do any aerials and airdodge, but no B moves. Sonic does not sweet spot the ledge. However again, Uair is amazing wen recovering from below. Sonic can "hug" the edge with Uair as he goes with his UpB. The first hit is very disjointed horizontally, and will likely hit you and not allow you to get your grab him. Second hit protects against vertical threats. Furthermore, if he has too, Sonic can wall jump as well(at least on FD... never tried it anywhere else) to grab the ledge. But even this is all Highly situational, since rarely will Sonic be forced to recover from below. I personally actually almost always choose to recover from below, because in my opinion, although Sonic can recover from anywhere, recovering from below if the safest in terms of damage taken before getting back to the stage, which is likely zero. Even though I'm very aware people can grab release me to death, because of Uair this is nevah a problemo.

 

[Greenstreet]

ZELDA - Character Matchup 16

Introduction

The dignified Princess Zelda from the 'Legend of Zelda' games. Unlike in her games, her brawl incantation isn't as helpless and doesn't get kidnapped every weekday. Being equip with a bunch of kill moves, the 3rd most powerful spike in the game, powerful smashes with lingering boxes and being (almost) impossible to DI out from, she can easily fend Ganon away without Link's help.

Behaviour:

Zelda has a good punishing game with Usmash, Fsmash, reversed Naryu's love, Dtilt, lighting kicks and Uair. She can easily obtain quick leads from the last two moves. At 50 Plenty of her attacks have lingering hit boxes making side stepping unhelpful. or so she gains true combos from her dtilt which she can chain into a number of different things. Like Game and Watch she somewhat fits the description of a glass cannon character. She has lots of powerful attacks and can kill really earily but is hindered with her light weight. However her terrible recovery, cool down and other issues weigh her down even further.

Commonly Used Moves:

Up smash
A strong smash attack that's good at shield poking. Beware of its long lasting hit boxes so don't spot dodge, shield instead. Zelda uses this to her advantage to eat through air dodges and such. Like Fsmash, it's hard to Smash DI out of, but possible. SDI upwards. It's also one of her main kill moves. Lastly, this can be hyphen smashed.

Forward smash
This smash is used for attacking and punishing and has good range to boot. Like Usmash, it has long lasting hit boxes and is good at shield poking. But this has less cool down but is still punishable if it misses. Considering how much Usmash and Fsmash eat out of your shield, I recommend you tilt your shield towards the attack to avoid the last few hits poking through and killing you. This smash attack is also hard to SDI ot of. You must SDI upwards and outwards from the first hit (6 frames). This is also another killing move.

Down tilt
Zelda's down tilt can trip and has a fair amount of hit stun. The hit stun from dtilt at a high enough percentage can lead to another dtilt. This is known as a dtilt lock. Dtilt can also be followed up by other things. Smash DI away to get out of it early. Used around 50 since Zelda starts getting a significant frame advantage over you from that point. Also at pint dtilt is start poping you up which can be followed by you getting killed by an up tilt.

Combos from hitstun

Your safest options from a Dtilt are generally anything below 6-8 frames:

• DSmash
• Dtilt...Dtilt...Dtilt...
• Dash Attack
• Usmash

If you happen to have a fresher Dtilt and your opponent is in the 70s and 80s percent wise, you can start throwing out anything generally under 10-11 frames:

• Utilt
• Farore's Wind
• Grab *grab is 12 frames but if your opponent doesn't have a 1 frame attack, you can grab them out of a shield, attack or spotdodge no matter what.

If your opponent trips, it's a free attack. Use this free attack VERY wisely. Utilt and Din's fire will not hit your opponent in tripping animation.

• Grab (the most damaging option)
• All Smash Attacks
  
• All Tilts except Utilt
• Nayru's and FW (Nayru's is quite damaging when the opponent is low and hit by all the crystals)

Up air
Don't linger right above Zelda in the air unless you want to eat an Uair, which you don't. They can often bait air dodges with your understandable fear of getting uaired, then uair you once you come out of your invincibility frames. So it's best to DI away from that.

Fair/Bair (Lighting kick)
Kills Sonic around 70% when it's fresh giving Zelda an early lead, so the time to be wary about this attack is when you're at 70 or so. She has multiple ways to land this on you, so beware. Dropping from platforms and kicking you, kicking you out of shield. Zelda can also do two lighting kicks from a short hop, so try not to be caught off guard and drop your shield too quickly.

Naryu's Love
Mainly used for interrupting at attack. Usually reversed so you're sent pass Zelda. Invincibility frames from 4-12. However if you shield the whole thing, Sonic has no problem punishing it.

Din's fire
No real problem for Sonic. Just run up to her and grab her if he does this. Also don't be fooled by the Din's fire mind games. If the flame seems to have went by you, don't drop your shield as the burst has a large hit hox.

How to Win:

Zelda doesn't have any safe way to approach you and can only force you to approach with a lead. Try not to let that happen. Note that she can gain quick a lead with lighting kicks and uair so try your best to avoid that from happening. It becomes easier to punish her when she has to approach so try can gain a lead and keep it. If for some reason Zelda uses din's fire, just run up to her and grab her.

A lot of Zeldas like to air dodge pass your attacks and do a counter attack. Retreating fairs and grabs deal with that approach fairly well. Punish Fsmashes and Usmashes that hit your shield with dash attack out of shield, grabs and ftilt.

Note that her jabs come out really slowly (11 frames) and her grab has terrible range and is avoidable by reaction. A lot of Zelda's moves have a good amount of lag after them such as Usmash and Fsmash or come out slowly (jab, grab and uair). Therefore Zelda is more prone to bait and punishing tatics.

Although Zelda does have a good punish game herself and can punish your approaches with dtilt and her smashes so be careful. Zelda has a good platform game with usmash, utilt and nair so try not to spend too much time on them.

Don't side step, sheild. The lingering hit boxes from her smashes, nair and Naryu's Love will beat your side step, so shield instead. Tilt your shield towards her smashes to help prevent them shield poking through. SDI away from her Dtilt. SDI upwards and outwards from her Fsmash and Upwards from her Usmash. Yeah, try and not get spiked. 3rd strongest spike in the game. It will kill Sonic. So avoid joining Zelda in a body of water becasue if she spikes you that is the end of your stock.

Zelda can't do much in the air so sending her in the air with up throw and keeping her there with uairs is a good idea. Farore's wind only travels in 8 directions so it should be fairly simple to figure out where she plans to go. If she tries to sweet spot the ledge, instant ledge hug it. If she lands on the stage, punish. If she appears in the air, it should be easy to punish her.

Recommended Stages:

Ban-
Corneria
Green greens
Luguis Mansion
Battle field

Counter pick-
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 2

Matchup Summary:


50:50 Even

 

[Tenki]

[1] Anyways, its unlikely you will hit Sonic with lightning kicks often. Although he has poor aerial acceleration, his overal airspeed is one of the best, so you'll have difficulty landing such kicks on him.

[2] Usmash is a pain in the butt. But Sonics Usmash actually can be used pretty nicely against Zelda as well. Invincy frames certainly help to get in there. And once Sonic is close up, he can fare pretty well. Sonics need to remember to use ftilt.


[3] Once sonic Grabs Zelda, then he's in control. Dthrow techchases, uthrow bthrow, I don't think Zelda has that man options to really prevent you from tech-chasing and your throw followups. Just don't be lightning kicked When you try to chase her -_-. Sonic overall fares better than Zelda in the air. If Zelda needs to use her UpB, then she can be in alot fo trouble, especially at high percentages. If shecan't sweet spot the ledge, Sonic has the speed to go and land a kill move upon her reappearence(yea I know it has a hitbox). I think thats actually how I get alot of my kills against Zelda, besides Bairs.

1 - Just like trying to grab Sonic out of spindashes, it's possible with enough familiarity in the matchup.

2 - You can also dash attack and I think SDR Zelda out of her U-smashes.

3 - D-throw techchase is dangerous. Zelda DI's upward, you run in and- AHHHH LIGHTNING KICK TO THE FAAACEE D:

I posted in the Zelda thread. If you just want the numbers and not the text, this is a 60-40 in Sonic's favor.

no wai.

Zelda can play safe as well. If Zelda is getting grabbed alot, she's not playing safe and is either wasting/missing waaaay too many attacks.

[4] Sonic is tall enough on the ground to be hit by Zelda's rising fair and bair, both. He dies at around 112 with no DI from an up tilt, and dtilt (5 frames) sets up for it. Training mode registers them as consecutive hits, so good luck reacting to it if it's not a true combo. Dtilt locks Sonic somewhere around 40%, and if it happens near the edge, down smash (4 frames) kills Sonic at earlier percents than up tilt. If it doesn't kill him, it sends him low enough to set him up for a spike (which can sweet spot) or a nair to send him too far to recover without his double jump.

[5] Sonic's up throw doesn't lead into up b to up airs if you know to DI behind him. Sonic's down throw doesn't lead into tech chases if you know you can just DI up and cover your *** with an LK/air dodge. Fthrow and bthrow don't really have too many follow ups. Being grabbed by Sonic is the least of my worries as all of his throw animations last long enough for me to decide which DI is best to use.

[6] If Zelda predicts Sonic correctly while he's in the air, he's as good as up smashed, nair'd, or killed under 100% by up air. Ground approaches can be out prioritized by fsmash, which has some start up but very little cooldown. She can cover herself with a shield; downtilt, which comes out in 5 frames, clanks with Sonic's ground approaches and has nearly no lag; or Naryu's Love which has invincibility from frames 4-12 and can be JC'd out of shield. Her jab comes out in 11 frames, but is disjointed and has no lag so it can also be ued to stop Sonic's approaches while being difficult to punish. If Zelda remains on the ground and uses attacks with little lag, Sonic is going to have a hard time pressuring her without being punished.

[7] Spin dash trickery is probably Sonic's most used approach. It's hard to attempt to stop it from coming without just being hit when Sonic is in good spacing, but after shielding it you have opportunities to punish. Figuring out how Sonic likes to get away with spindashes is a lot like learning an opponent's projectile pattern -- you just have find the openings you can capitalize on. You can bait Sonic into bad spacing to make him easier to punish or just stop him entirely, or you can gradually approach him as he runs around you... doin stuff. Sonic's tilts are pretty good.

5 - can't you SDI out of tilt locks? Also, there are ways around the whole "lol i DI'd ur throw" deal (yeah. even F-throw has its uses). U-throw> Spring > U-air only works on bad DI or newbs, and it's not as big of a 'staple' in our game as it might seem lol.

6 - Just an interesting note: I played against RyokoYaksa a looong time ago over wifi. One move I got caught off guard with was a U-air through ledge. I was waiting to grab/follow a ledge movement like ledge attack or roll, but then the Zelda started to drop and recatch the ledge. Next jump, he went in towards the lip in FD, and U-aired me through the floor. It was amazing. Watch out for its range lol.

7 - eh... Well, that's the first time I've seen in a Sonic matchup discussion that the other side brought up bait-and-punish. I guess it kind of helps set the tone for a 50-50, though I still think it's in Zelda's favor.

Honestly I think we're talking waaay too much about Zelda's punishability lol. Zelda is kind of punishable, but on the flip side, she still does have a bunch of anti-Sonic-approach attacks that can be problematic.

Zelda's down-B is pretty good against Sonic too.

 

[Kinzer]

D*** Tenki and his logic, though I kind of question how the matchup can be any better than 55:45 for Zelda.

And it's kind of hard to get accurate numbers anyway since we could be fighting two opponents really...

 

[Browny]

dont try to spotdodge ffffffs

normall i spotdodge REALLY often since i play against a lot of wolf, marth users etc its so easy to bait their fsmash lol but its taking a while to get out of the habit when playing against zelda. Whoever said dtilt locks sonic to 40%... just no.

anyway i think dtilt is probably one of the best moves to use here... a little faster than ftilt and anything zelda does that would beat dtilt is going to beat ftilt anyway so not much extra risk.

 

[Tenki]

Concerning the two, I think Zelda's treated more as an 'endstock' angel of death.

That said, [Sheik]>[Down-B] > [Killmode] is more of a 'Sheik' move to be taken into account in the Sheik matchup than it is a Zelda.

 

[Jim Morrison]

IIRC Zelda was semi-heavy, at least above Mario

 

[ShadowLink84]

1 - Just like trying to grab Sonic out of spindashes, it's possible with enough familiarity in the matchup.

Considering the speed of the spincharge as well as the ability to jump cancel you should not get grabbed out of your spincharges/dashes by Zelda.

2 - You can also dash attack and I think SDR Zelda out of her U-smashes.

Yep.
its what I sometimes use on Snake.
oddly enough the dash attack from Sonic actually hits lower than his spincharge.

3 - D-throw techchase is dangerous. Zelda DI's upward, you run in and- AHHHH LIGHTNING KICK TO THE FAAACEE D:

yeah thats happened to me. But then I figured its best that I just use a dash shieldsince it nullifies some of the momentum of the kick and allow you to remain close.

5 - can't you SDI out of tilt locks? Also, there are ways around the whole "lol i DI'd ur throw" deal (yeah. even F-throw has its uses). U-throw> Spring > U-air only works on bad DI or newbs, and it's not as big of a 'staple' in our game as it might seem lol.

better off with the Fthrow IMO than the Uthrow *shot)

6 - Just an interesting note: I played against RyokoYaksa a looong time ago over wifi. One move I got caught off guard with was a U-air through ledge. I was waiting to grab/follow a ledge movement like ledge attack or roll, but then the Zelda started to drop and recatch the ledge. Next jump, he went in towards the lip in FD, and U-aired me through the floor. It was amazing. Watch out for its range lol.

bad Tenki. *hits*
Always be wary of her Uair. Its not good for opponents floating above her but on the ledge. its pretty sexy.

7 - eh... Well, that's the first time I've seen in a Sonic matchup discussion that the other side brought up bait-and-punish. I guess it kind of helps set the tone for a 50-50, though I still think it's in Zelda's favor.

Honestly I think we're talking waaay too much about Zelda's punishability lol. Zelda is kind of punishable, but on the flip side, she still does have a bunch of anti-Sonic-approach attacks that can be problematic.

Zelda's down-B is pretty good against Sonic too.

Well if we assume we are facing only Zelda I would actually ahve to say Sonic would ahve the advantage.
before anyone rips my head off let me explain.

This is primarily due to the fact that Sonic's ability to get close to Zelda is very good. Hell as soon as Din's fire comes out you can immediately rush forward to gain some distance.
You can SDi her smashes and her aerial game is not the best due to her narrow hitboxes. (if you get hit by a Uair you are being silly).

She does have some anti sonic techniques but I find that abusing your movement is very useful.

if we add Sheik ito the equation Sonic does have a disadvantage mainly because of how Sheik seems to wall Sonic off better at close range.
Which we know will occur since Zelda and Sheik, users are less prone to stick with one character or the other now adays.
6:4 zelda/shiek advantage.

 

[JayBee]

I think experience in this match is probably going to show people how predictable Zelda's can be. Zelda (like most characters) can't lock down sonic positionaly if he maintains unpredictable movement. I for one encourage side B spam in my attack because Sonic's speed can punish well. LK are almost always obvious when a Zelda SH's- you know they want to do it eventually. Shield and punish. I respond with quick Hyphens from time to to time to discourage that. I am more grabby in this matchup though. In my experience, the thing that got me the most was the UpSmash, but that changed when my style became more ASC and ground based. For me, I like to promote the usage of certain moves by forcing them with my movement, then punish because Im most comfortable with it. mwahahaha...



Oh yeah. Off topic. I was playing a match last week againt a good kirby player. And he tried to drill kick me. I know about Upsmash, but i still didn't expect it to completely destroy the drill kick. I mean, it just took it and kept on going. He was like, WTF? even though I told him, i have to admit, i didn't expect it like it happened. It felt like the frickin Invincibilty frames of a DK. or maybe Im overexaggerating...

 

[Kinzer]

Can we agree that Zelda alone is at a disadvantage with Sonic, and that with both included we lose?

I'm pretty sure that when we get to Sheik and Sheik alone we'll be saying it's neutral if not slighty in her favor...55:45/60:40 TOPS, and with both of them included it's a solid disadvantage.

Now I know somebody out there is going to say something like the Zelda/Sheik would have to be stupid to not use the other character, and that's okay...we'll just have to seperate those facts.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Gf2tw: Zelda is very light. She hits like a heavyweight, but is tremendously fragile.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sonic may have a slight advantage if he picks the right stages: Halberd and Delfino are particularly bad for zelda. And lylat cruise is not too good either, but none of these stages are really bad for sheik so, w/e.
On stages with lots of platform chase options like Battlefield or Luigi's mansion, however, both sheik and zelda thrive because their landing options AND ability to land aerials and approach become just that much greater. And there's always platform poking and actually having a greater chance of landing din's. Also sheik can chain camp brickwall sonic under a platform in complete safety. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a single approach that'll go through it. He has to find a way over and around it, which even spinshot won't position him for before sheik can retract the chain. And spindash might beat din's, but it falls hard to needles and chain. Sheik honestly racks up damage like a beast against sonic and makes it that much easier for zelda to kill him. No WAY this isn't zelda/sheik's advantage... but zelda alone... maybe not.


For whoever said zelda's dair was weak, you were wrong, it's beastly. I know ganon's is a moe powerful spike, but I can't think of anything else stronger. and she can ledge release->shorthop dair->instant regrab ledge against you for a decent surprise.

and for whoever said zelda's jab was slow: it has, like, NO cooldown lag. so it's quite spammable and, yes, you can get around the spam, but it flows BEAUTIFULLY into a fsmash, so if you start to try to approach through it, we can rip out a fsmash which has much greater power and range. It's certainly punishable, but it's not a bad move and it DOES have uses. Dtilt is much the same... more beautiful in that it comboes into every one of her smashes as well as utilt or nair depending on damage.

combining the two previous points: at the ledge, jab can lead into dair spike.

Zelda's aerials will kill you. it's that simple. they won't hit often, but when the do hit, chances are you are losing a stock. fear being powersheilded. I know YOU have powersheild follow ups too, but you don't have anything like a lightning kick.

Pretty much being tricked into a fsmash is the only thing sonic kills me with. whereas zelda has a lot of options to kill sonic.


This matchup is not overly slanted in either direction. It's COMPLETELY winable for either side depending on who is better in the head of the other. I'd put it 50:50 or 55:45 Zelda becuase sonic is alowed fewer mistakes before he dies. But it's definitely at least 60:40 zelda's advantage if sheik is used too. Sheik alone does at least as well as zelda alone.

umm... that's all I got for now.

 

[Kinzer]

That was me about the spike...and maybe I just haven't fought enough Zeldas to recall its strength...I just had my Mom nag at me for reasons I won't say, and I can't think straight right now, so just how powerful are we talking here? I'm sure spamming Up-B once the hitstun of Dair wears off will usually get us right back up...but again I can't think too well right now, so please forgive me.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it is like the 3rd strongest in the game. i think it goes ganon, ness, then zelda.

 

[Kinzer]

Does Ike have like the 4th strongest spike in the game then? I just want to know this personally, like how Ness' spike is 1st palce at 0% but Ganon at higher %ages wins out.

A blade blessed by a Godess is weaker than a Female's lightning heels...meh, I won't argue this just because it's irrelevent to the point.

 

[Tenki]

Considering the speed of the spincharge as well as the ability to jump cancel you should not get grabbed out of your spincharges/dashes by Zelda.

This is primarily due to the fact that Sonic's ability to get close to Zelda is very good. Hell as soon as Din's fire comes out you can immediately rush forward to gain some distance.

- The point wasn't that Zelda can grab Sonic out of spindashes. It's just that you shouldn't take Sonic's speed as a reason why something can't land lol.

- It was mentioned that Zelda won't be using Din's fire too much anyway.

---------------

I said it earlier, but you're more likely to see a Sheik > Zelda than a Zelda > Sheik transformation.

So for all practical purposes, Sheik-Zelda should pretty much only be considered for the Sheik matchup lol.

Also, 55:45 should be considered even-ish.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic may have a slight advantage if he picks the right stages: Halberd and Delfino are particularly bad for zelda. And lylat cruise is not too good either, but none of these stages are really bad for sheik so, w/e.

If anything she benefits because she can wall Sonic with her chain @_@

unless you have nice timing like me. >_>

On stages with lots of platform chase options like Battlefield or Luigi's mansion, however, both sheik and zelda thrive because their landing options AND ability to land aerials and approach become just that much greater. And there's always platform poking and actually having a greater chance of landing din's. Also sheik can chain camp brickwall sonic under a platform in complete safety. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a single approach that'll go through it. He has to find a way over and around it, which even spinshot won't position him for before sheik can retract the chain. And spindash might beat din's, but it falls hard to needles and chain. Sheik honestly racks up damage like a beast against sonic and makes it that much easier for zelda to kill him. No WAY this isn't zelda/sheik's advantage... but zelda alone... maybe not.

You actually can get through the chain but your timing has to be VERY precise. Primarily dash attacks,,spincharge and dash shield grabs can get past it but the timing is rather slim.
in such a case you ebtter hope you are 1% up so you can side taunt her to death.

For whoever said zelda's dair was weak, you were wrong, it's beastly. I know ganon's is a moe powerful spike, but I can't think of anything else stronger. and she can ledge release->shorthop dair->instant regrab ledge against you for a decent surprise.

Its weaker than ganon, ness ,Falco, Luigi, Link, TL's etc etc.
Its strong but its not enough to kill Sonic.
hell Sonic can survive Ganon's spike at around 100%.

and for whoever said zelda's jab was slow: it has, like, NO cooldown lag. so it's quite spammable and, yes, you can get around the spam, but it flows BEAUTIFULLY into a fsmash, so if you start to try to approach through it, we can rip out a fsmash which has much greater power and range. It's certainly punishable, but it's not a bad move and it DOES have uses. Dtilt is much the same... more beautiful in that it comboes into every one of her smashes as well as utilt or nair depending on damage.

Zelda can't jab cancel or combo into her Fsmash from it.
Her Dtilt on the other hand does.
You can Di out of Fsmash so its not as threatening but its not an effective wall.
I can always just Ftilt if I feel you want to use your jab or (if I am being sexy) dash shield your Fsmash then grab you.

combining the two previous points: at the ledge, jab can lead into dair spike.

Not really. I played a good nubmer of Zelda's (some good some bad) and each attempt just doesn't work out if you DI correctly. Her jab does not lead into a Dair spike because of hjow anrrow the sweetspot is.

Zelda's aerials will kill you. it's that simple. they won't hit often, but when the do hit, chances are you are losing a stock. fear being powersheilded. I know YOU have powersheild follow ups too, but you don't have anything like a lightning kick.

Agreed. The only issue is that she needs to sweetspot and its rather difficult to land against Sonic. Not because of his size buit ebcause of his mobility.

Pretty much being tricked into a fsmash is the only thing sonic kills me with. whereas zelda has a lot of options to kill sonic.

If the Sonic user only manages to kill you with an Fsmash, then they are doing something terribly wrong.


This matchup is not overly slanted in either di

rection. It's COMPLETELY winable for either side depending on who is better in the head of the other. I'd put it 50:50 or 55:45 Zelda becuase sonic is alowed fewer mistakes before he dies. But it's definitely at least 60:40 zelda's advantage if sheik is used too. Sheik alone does at least as well as zelda alone.

umm... that's all I got for now.

I have to disagree. Zelda can't afford any mistakes because of the fact that her recovery is predictable (ryoko hates facing Ike) and her aerial capability is bad. She really cannot afford tog et popped up into the air.
Sonic also has methods of getting around her walls so he isn't confined and he is good at chasing and maintaining pressure.

While Zelda can kill much earlier than Sonic, his mobility as well as his ability to chase help him out.
I would factor in midngames but no one really cares for them =(.


once you use both Sheik and Zelda though Sonic tends to have a harder time.
Unlike Zelda, Sheik has a better close range wall that can make use of the platforms more readily.

- The point wasn't that Zelda can grab Sonic out of spindashes. It's just that you shouldn't take Sonic's speed as a reason why something can't land lol.

You can go a whole match without being grabbed by DDD but the chances are small. of course everything is a possibility but some are very small hence why I don't really factor it.
poionly one that I can say has some chance of grabbing sonic out for spincharge and dashes is DDD with his amssive grab range and Olimar.

- It was mentioned that Zelda won't be using Din's fire too much anyway.

I know but i mention it since I like to play keep away with Sonic when I am 1% up against Zelda.

I said it earlier, but you're more likely to see a Sheik > Zelda than a Zelda > Sheik transformation.

So for all practical purposes, Sheik-Zelda should pretty much only be considered for the Sheik matchup lol.

Also, 55:45 should be considered even-ish.

Agreed though iwa s thinking 60:40 disadvantage for Sonic with the two combined.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, the only thing that seems like that we need to cover is which stages would be best to take Zelda?

Again, taking her alone is one thing, but trying to find a stage where both Zelda & Sheik lose out on is quite difficult if not impossible...

Get that out of the way, and we can focus on the Big Cheese...

MEGAKNIGHT!!!!!!!!

 

[~TBS~]

Megaknight????
we all know about his cheapness, it rules brawl...i fight him as I normally would, and run away from nado's.

 

[Kinzer]

I'll explain why I say MegaKnight...give me a minute...

Edit: Here's the thread. It's only two pages, so there's no excuse you can use to have a good time in there.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203228

 

[Stealth Raptor]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199830 this explain the strength of spikes. zelda is apparently 5th.

 

[Tenki]

I'll explain why I say MegaKnight...give me a minute...

Edit: Here's the thread. It's only two pages, so there's no excuse you can use to have a good time in there.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203228

Don't be too hasty lol. Are we really 'done' with the Zelda discussion?

 

[Kinzer]

I know we aren't Tenki, we still need to find a stage of preference for Zelda/ Zelda/Shiek.

Other than that, I think we got it all covered, Shiek is to be explained later.

And thanks Raptor.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If anything she benefits because she can wall Sonic with her chain @_@

unless you have nice timing like me. >_>
You actually can get through the chain but your timing has to be VERY precise. Primarily dash attacks,,spincharge and dash shield grabs can get past it but the timing is rather slim.
in such a case you ebtter hope you are 1% up so you can side taunt her to death.

Are you shure you can dash attack through it? I think if sheik has perfect timing as well that you do not.

Its weaker than ganon, ness ,Falco, Luigi, Link, TL's etc etc.
Its strong but its not enough to kill Sonic.
hell Sonic can survive Ganon's spike at around 100%.

no. it isn't. it's weaker than ness's and ganon's. maybe ikes too, but I'm not sure. but it's stronger than anyone elses. and that is strong enough to kill. Sonic can survive spikes well, granted, but it puts you in AWFUL position if you do.

Zelda can't jab cancel or combo into her Fsmash from it.
Her Dtilt on the other hand does.

no of course she can't. it's not used like that.

You can Di out of Fsmash so its not as threatening but its not an effective wall.

I hate how people assume that because it's possible to DI out of zelda's smashes it makes them worthless. you won't DI out of Usmash nearly ever and you won't DI out of Fsmash enough to make it wortless. and it outranges your everything and has very little cooldown, so good luck punishing it even if you do DI out of it.

I can always just Ftilt if I feel you want to use your jab or (if I am being sexy) dash shield your Fsmash then grab you.

yes you could... that is... you could if I didn't Fsmash instead. you see, the moment you position yourself in Fsmash range, I stop jabbing and fsmash. jab has no cooldown and you can't run into an ftilt, so that's a bad idea for you.

Not really. I played a good nubmer of Zelda's (some good some bad) and each attempt just doesn't work out if you DI correctly. Her jab does not lead into a Dair spike because of hjow anrrow the sweetspot is.

yes yes it does. saying that you CAN DI out of something doesn't make it worthless to mention. Apparently all sonic players are gods with perfect timing and DI while most zelda mains are syphillitic leapors who have reflexes on par with a dead cow.

Agreed. The only issue is that she needs to sweetspot and its rather difficult to land against Sonic. Not because of his size buit ebcause of his mobility.

Zelda =/= aerial dogfigeter. her LKs ae gonna hit you when you are exposed from something. not to try to trade hits in the air. powersheild->LK was already mentioned.

If the Sonic user only manages to kill you with an Fsmash, then they are doing something terribly wrong.

I said pretty much only, as in, that's where the grand majority of his kills come from. sonic does not kill so easily, so he's really not gonna have a lot of options.

I have to disagree. Zelda can't afford any mistakes because of the fact that her recovery is predictable (ryoko hates facing Ike) and her aerial capability is bad. She really cannot afford tog et popped up into the air.
Sonic also has methods of getting around her walls so he isn't confined and he is good at chasing and maintaining pressure.

While Zelda can kill much earlier than Sonic, his mobility as well as his ability to chase help him out.
I would factor in midngames but no one really cares for them =(.

Sonic =/= ike. he can't punish a poor recovery like ike can, nor can he put her in a position to use it like ike can, his attacks seem to have friendly trajectories.
Zelda has a fantastic airdodge and sonic's aerial acceleration is bad. so all it takes is a dodge and I'm back on my feet normally. Sonic does have methods for getting around her walls, but zelda can move her walls too. Zelda might be more prone to make a mistake, but hell no she's not the one who gets punished more for it. despite her light weight, sonic can't kill zelda for a good long while. Zelda, on the other hand, can send sonic realing in double digits if she lands the right atatcks.

 

[Kinzer]

Dawg, we're pretending the Sonic and Zelda players are "mastered" or at the highest skill possible...and we break it down to what above average humans will do... I suppose DIing out of smashes isn't impossible, but it can happen...meh, but I'm defending for SL84.

Also while you're here, can you PLEASE in your opinion give us a stage you think Sonic would want to take Zelda or Zelda/Shiek?

 

[Tenki]

[1] Are you shure you can dash attack through it? I think if sheik has perfect timing as well that you do not.

[2] yes yes it does. saying that you CAN DI out of something doesn't make it worthless to mention. Apparently all sonic players are gods with perfect timing and DI while most zelda mains are syphillitic leapors who have reflexes on par with a dead cow.

[3] I said pretty much only, as in, that's where the grand majority of his kills come from. sonic does not kill so easily, so he's really not gonna have a lot of options.

1) You're correct. Godly Sheik chaining is basically unbreakable unless Sonic uses spring or something.

2) That's just SL84 lol. I've tried in training to SDI through F-smash, SDI a far distance behind / out of Zelda and still get launched. Boo.

3) Right. Ish. F-smash is Sonic's strongest launcher, so it's no surprise that's all that he'd use to try to kill you with lol. Next up would be D-smash (first hit needs about 10% more damage tha F-smash to kill), and sweetspot (UNSTALE) B-air. F-smash with DI is like, 135% kill on Marth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Are you sure you can dash attack through it? I think if sheik has perfect timing as well that you do not.

it works. I was messing with it the other day and its fast enough to do it but the timing is difficult.
in theory you could use your side B to break it. <_<

no. it isn't. it's weaker than ness's and ganon's. maybe ikes too, but I'm not sure. but it's stronger than anyone elses. and that is strong enough to kill. Sonic can survive spikes well, granted, but it puts you in AWFUL position if you do.

Not really. When Sonic ^B's during Ganon's spike (^B acts as a meteor cancel) it places him above the stage. So if you spike me and I ^B I can Bair or Utilt and grab the ledge.
its not a good situation but can be worked with.

I hate how people assume that because it's possible to DI out of zelda's smashes it makes them worthless.

I hate how people assume that I assumes her Smashes are worthless @_@

you won't DI out of Usmash nearly ever and you won't DI out of Fsmash enough to make it wortless. and it outranges your everything and has very little cooldown, so good luck punishing it even if you do DI out of it.
yes you could... that is... you could if I didn't Fsmash instead. you see, the moment you position yourself in Fsmash range, I stop jabbing and fsmash. jab has no cooldown and you can't run into an ftilt, so that's a bad idea for you.

Your jab is 11 frames long I have more than enough time to attack you. I am not attacking after the jab ends I am attacking
during your jab. During that point I would dash and SHIELD so that if you perform a tilt or Fsmash I could advance and grab you afterwards.
Or just leap away.

Sonic slides a good amount when he dashes and he can cancel the dash immediately.
DIing out of the Usmash takes some practice but it can be done. You have to DI when Zelda crosses her arms but once you have the timing it can be done consistently.
Same thing with her Fsmash.

stuff

Cut the stupidity. I am not going to tolerate it if you continue. No one is assuming bad play behavior.We assume high level play in which we know the opponent will DI out of the Fsmash and Usmash when they have a chance.
Thats what happens people DI properly. its why ryoko was extremely pissed at how they simply copy and pasted her smashes from melee.

Zelda =/= aerial dogfigeter. her LKs are gonna hit you when you are exposed from something. not to try to trade hits in the air. powersheild->LK was already mentioned.

I know but I am saying it would be difficult because of Sonic's high amount of mobility.
PS~LK would certainly work but I am saying that it could be difficult or her to perform since Sonic is always moving in and out of the opponents range.

I said pretty much only, as in, that's where the grand majority of his kills come from. sonic does not kill so easily, so he's really not gonna have a lot of options.

The main reason people use the Fsmash so often is cause its his most powerful,. the other kill moves are ebtter overall since they have better speed and versatility to them. Most of my kills are from Bair with the Fsmash coming second. I don't use Dsmash often though which is odd since i use link's so much.

Sonic =/= ike. he can't punish a poor recovery like ike can, nor can he put her in a position to use it like ike can, his attacks seem to have friendly trajectories.
Zelda has a fantastic airdodge and sonic's aerial acceleration is bad. so all it takes is a dodge and I'm back on my feet normally. Sonic does have methods for getting around her walls, but zelda can move her walls too. Zelda might be more prone to make a mistake, but hell no she's not the one who gets punished more for it. despite her light weight, sonic can't kill zelda for a good long while. Zelda, on the other hand, can send sonic reeling in double digits if she lands the right attacks.

Well I am assuming that Sonic has already racked up enough damage before he launches the punishing move after her poor recovery.
I do agree he can't really place her in such a position.
I don't know why you are mentioning her killing power when I already mentioned it as well.
Zelda kills Sonic much earlier but similar to Sonic can have issues landing those kill moves because of Sonic's behavior.

As for getting around the airdodge how long is her airdodge? I know that Sonic can Fair~Bair on a number of opponents who have airdodged the first attack.


@tenki: What you haven't managed to DI out of her Fsmash?
YES I FINALLY BEAT TENKI IN SOMETHING! DI!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dawg, we're pretending the Sonic and Zelda players are "mastered" or at the highest skill possible...and we break it down to what above average humans will do... I suppose DIing out of smashes isn't impossible, but it can happen...meh, but I'm defending for SL84.

Also while you're here, can you PLEASE in your opinion give us a stage you think Sonic would want to take Zelda or Zelda/Shiek?

already did.

sheik... iunno. sheik like platforms against sonic so FD wouldn't give sheik an advantage... but nore would it hinder.

Zelda has more problem stages. Like sheik, she'll probably beat you senseless on Battlefeild, but you have a few counterpicks:
-Delfino Plaza
-Battleship Halberd
-Lylat cruise

because the first two stages have non-solid main platforms and because lylat cruise tilts, zelda has a REALLY hard time if she's in a position that she needs farore's to recover because sweetspoting the ledge with it becomes an artform rather than a standard ability on those stages. As such, she'll normally end up landing ON the stage and, thusly, be punishable during her landing lag. Sheik has no such problems though.

all three of these stages are otherwise good for zelda and sheik.
- Lylat has some REALLY easy to poke through platforms
- Delfino and halberd pose NO problems when the stages "dock"
- all 3 have platforms, halberd has less, but it also spends the most time docked
- Delfino is the most likely to get zelda with its non-solidness, but it also has water... and if zelda ever spikes you in the water... you're dead.

all three stages have their advantages in the matchup. Lylat probably has the least of a gimping effect, but it's also the most consistent, since the other stages spend large portions of time safely docked. choose whichever makes you the most comfortable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Corneria would be good against Zelda IMO. Long amount of space and helps Sonic out with his ability to pop the opponent intot hea ir.
Zelda kilsl early on every stage so it wouldn't matter too much IMO.

 

[Tenki]

@tenki: What you haven't managed to DI out of her Fsmash?
YES I FINALLY BEAT TENKI IN SOMETHING! DI!

Actually, a while ago, someone mentioned SDI'ing through/behind Zelda and punishing her from behind her U-smash. I tried it in training mode for the max DI lulz, and was able to SDI through a Zelda F-smash with Zelda standing on the edge, behind her and OFF the stage, then got reverse launched for death lol. I think it only happens if a certain part of the beginning or something hits you first.

Otherwise, you can SDI up/away from Zelda and out of the F-smash lol.

Let's see you get star KO'd from a Sonic F-air. My DI is that good.

 

[Kinzer]

Lylat Cruise it is...I generally don't like Delfino just because I can't really take advantage of the water, but I like it when the undocked stage is there...anyway and for the Halberd...well I just don't like it because I haven't fought too much there yet, maybe I need to get more comfortable there... and I love Lylat, it's so easy to SH fair people as well as shieldpoke with Usmash, Hell Nair becomes useable!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Corneria would be good against Zelda IMO. Long amount of space and helps Sonic out with his ability to pop the opponent intot hea ir.
Zelda kilsl early on every stage so it wouldn't matter too much IMO.

corneria is a good stage for zelda.

she has enormous vertical killing potential. one usmash or utilt or uair or even LK at moderate damage will kill you depending on decay... and the edges are really close. one reason sonic isn't more disadvantaged against zelda is because of how well he survives her Dsamsh compared to other characters due to his excelent recovery. but with corneria's close edges, dsmash won't put in a bad position, it'll just kill. as for sheik. I'm pretty sure sheik can camp by the wing fairly safely and usmash will kill at virtually nothing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, a while ago, someone mentioned SDI'ing through/behind Zelda and punishing her from behind her U-smash. I tried it in training mode for the max DI lulz, and was able to SDI through a Zelda F-smash with Zelda standing on the edge, behind her and OFF the stage, then got reverse launched for death lol. I think it only happens if a certain part of the beginning or something hits you first.

Otherwise, you can SDI up/away from Zelda and out of the F-smash lol.

Let's see you get star KO'd from a Sonic F-air. My DI is that good.

Its on the first hit wher ethe move sucks you into the other hits. Don't do it since its rather dangerous since a few of the hits have TL's Dsmash property where they have nasty knockback.
Just DI up and away (or if you are jiggly up and towards for a free REST).<_<

Zelda's Usmash does that too.

If I had a seizure i may be able to DI like you. Maybe. >_>
<_<
>_>

 

[Napilopez]

So umm yea no-one has posted here in a while... can we move on? lolz.

Consensus 55:45 Sonic or 50:50 Sonic? And this is for Zelda only.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would say 60:40 for Sonic just cause I want to be optimistic for once instead of pessimistic.

 

[Tenki]

55:45 at best for Sonic.

55:45/50:50 in Zelda's favor most realistically.

Either way, all of those fall within "Neutral" according to dangr's chart, so this one gets a neutral rating lol.

 

[-Mars-]

DI'ing her usmash at higher percentages forces you to almost kill yourself with bad DI since you have to DI on an upwards trajectory. I really feel like the whole issue with her smashes being smash-DI-able is overrated. Once you DI out of it, I can Naryus very quickly if I so choose and have little danger of being punished.