Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Chis]

Has anyone mentioned tap DI and smash DI against MK multi hit moves?

 

[Rh1thmz]

Determine tot he extent of which he can pursue an opponent vertically.

Could you clarify that a little bit? Like, how high he can ascend with his jumps? If that's what you mean, he can jump from the bottom platform to the very top of the screen in Battlefield with his jumps alone. The way you phrased that is kind of vague, though.


EDIT:
@ Chis:

You can smash DI out of the third hit of MK's bair, and smash DIing up out of MT tends to work reasonably consistently if you do it early on in the tornado. If you don't get out of MT at first, then most times, MK's got you for the rest of the tornado, but you should keep smash DIing anyways. It's still possible to smash DI out of MT in the middle of it or near its end, but it's much harder. Unless MK is fastfalling while he fairs (not a SHFF fair, but just a fair after he has started fastfalling in midair), then fair will hit with all three hits. I don't think that you can smash DI out of ftilts, but Drill Rush is really easy to smash DI out of.

 

[aeghrur]

Smash DI up on tornado is all I know, lol. Unless you're hit at the bottom? Then maybe away? =/

 

[Chis]

Forward tilt, Fair and Bair?

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic does have tons of recovery options, but one dair from MK is all it takes sometimes...

On another note, Sonic's up-B on its own doesn't do any damage, so if one, for some reason, tried to sweetspot the ledge with up-B, an edgehogging MK isn't going anywhere. Also, while in Sonic's psuedo helpless mode, for a lack of a better term (aka after he uses up-B and before he comes back onto the stage), he can't grab the ledge while performing an aerial attack, and he can't use his specials while in this mode, so grabbing the ledge isn't that much of an option for Sonic. I am aware that Sonic usually doesn't need to grab the ledge to recover safely, this isn't much of an option when Sonic runs out of jumps/gets gimped a little bit from something like MK's dair and is forced to try and grab the ledge. In other words, Sonic will usually be out of luck on the occasion where he needs to grab/sweetspot the ledge.

Also, it really isn't that hard to hit Sonic out of a side-B recovery attempt with MK's fair.

I am aware that MK will not always be positioned properly to fair Sonic's side-B or to dair Sonic back off of the stage, but there will definitely be points during the match where MK is positioned properly for a gimp attempt. My point is that while Sonic is a hard character to gimp, MK's gimping ability is, obviously, nothing to be scoffed at or ignored.

Nicely analyzed post XD.

A couple of notes:
-Uair has very little "dead" time at the end, So its prolly Sonics safest option for this, and a number of other reasons when hes recovering from below. Since it has less commitment time, Sonic has a grater chance of grabbing the ledge if he manages to hit an opponent off with the Uair.
-Also, Sonic can footstool you for recovery when you are holding on to the edge. Of course, he may be too low to do it, but Sonic's should keep this in mind

 

[Napilopez]

Could you clarify that a little bit? Like, how high he can ascend with his jumps? If that's what you mean, he can jump from the bottom platform to the very top of the screen in Battlefield with his jumps alone. The way you phrased that is kind of vague, though.

I think he means, how effectively is MK at chasing opponents vertically? MK may be able to go high with his multiple double jumpps, but its slow. he doesn't ascend high enough quickly enough. Nor does he fast fall quickly enough to be able to chase opponents on a vertical trajectory too well. For example, if an opponent is at the top of the screen, Sonic can just spring and be there in a fraction of a second to attack. Even his standard double jump sends his a nice height, and he also has vertical spindash jump to help for even more height. MK on the other hand has to jump jump jum and then attack. Shuttle loop has a nice vertical reach though. Problem is that Sonic tends to move alot vertically as well as horizontally, and shuttle loop isn't even too effective in this case, because the spring will hit MK out of it when Sonic uses his upB, unless MK times it perfectly for his one invincy frame, lulz. And since MKs maneuverability in the air is lackluster, springbombing him is all the easier and safer. Really, if Sonic is above MK, All he has to do is spring to dair to return to safety if MK triest to be on the offensive. Even if he shuttle loops, he will be hit. I would recommend the MK try to get back on the ground and punish Sonic's landings.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Sonic may have more speed and have those options, but when Sonic returns to the ground for an auto-cancelled dair, you've gotta keep in mind that MK's uair will beat out Sonic's dair, which just means that Sonic is back in the air with +6 damage. The uair isn't that hard to time, either...it comes out on, like, frame 2 or 3 and has minimal cooldown. MK can just keep up a wall of uairs while falling at normal speed (falling uairs) to make airdodging past him much more difficult if one tries to airdodge past the uairs...in fact, Olimar has almost no way around falling uairs if MK sets them up right.

My main point is that uair > dair when Sonic tries to do an auto-cancelled dair. MK will not always have the time to do this, but it is very possible.

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic may have more speed and have those options, but when Sonic returns to the ground for an auto-cancelled dair, you've gotta keep in mind that MK's uair will beat out Sonic's dair, which just means that Sonic is back in the air with +6 damage. The uair isn't that hard to time, either...it comes out on, like, frame 2 or 3 and has minimal cooldown. MK can just keep up a wall of uairs while falling at normal speed (falling uairs) to make airdodging past him much more difficult if one tries to airdodge past the uairs...in fact, Olimar has almost no way around falling uairs if MK sets them up right.

My main point is that uair > dair when Sonic tries to do an auto-cancelled dair. MK will not always have the time to do this, but it is very possible.

Ahh, there is another thing I have to clarify. There is some ambiguity with the term "autocancelling", as the term is used for two distinct things. One type of autocancelling is when you land the aerial on a specific frame window in order to cancel all lag. The other is simply letting the animation end before you hit the ground. When Sonic's refer to autocancelled Dairs, we are referring to the latter. Because the attack has actually ended, Sonic can reach the ground with almost perfect security from an attack. This is because Sonic will airdodge as soon as the dair finishes, and hold shield so that upon landing the attack immediately becomes a shield. Its is extremely difficult to punish this with attacks that have a short hitbox out length, and even if the hitbox stays out for a while it can be difficult. For this reason, the best way to punish Sonic from an autocancelled Dair landing is via a grab, as even if Sonic shields, he cant don anything against a grab. You can use a tornado, but keep in mind that the Nado is vulnerable from the top, so Sonic could just as easily initiate an aerial immediately after the dair to hit you out of it.

So yea, if you can reach Sonic, grab as he lands the dair.

 

[Tenki]

MK actually does really well on Rainbow Cruise. Most characters can't keep up with MK on Rainbow Cruise due to the left section with the multitude of small platforms. MK simply uses his well-rounded air game to own people here because the majority of the fighting on the left side of the stage's rotation is in the air, which is where MK trumps the cast. However, Sonic is reasonably comfortable in the air, too, and he doesn't have too many troubles recovering, so he shouldn't be as affected as most of the cast by Rainbow Cruise in this matchup. Also, the walkoffs on the upper portion of the rotation eliminate gimp kills, and the lack of platforms keep more of the fighting on the ground. Overall, Rainbow Cruise is a good stage for MK, though, and is a lethal counterpick against some characters like, say, Ganondorf >.< Sonic shouldn't have as much trouble here as the rest of the cast, though.



Three things:

1. You could've tested that lol =p

2. Well, I just went into training mode and full hopped followed by 5 double jumps executed as close to the ground as I possibly could, and then I shorthopped afterwards...in other words, I did some lame testing where I eyeballed it lol...Anyways, they look nearly the same height. The short hop was actually going just as high as the double jumps were, but the double jumps have to be executed while aerial, so it leads me to believe that the shorthop goes slightly higher than his double jumps.

3. Why were you wondering? I'm just curious.

@1: I don't have a wii to mess around with on weekdays XD
@2: lol
@3: Kind of thinking about something, since I can't test atm: if MK starts an aerial like F-air or N-air while rising, he has to fall, and it basically wastes his jump. Well, for somewhere like RC for example, where vertical travel ability matters quite a bit some times, it would be kind of sad for MK to not have double jumps `.`;

Sonic may have more speed and have those options, but when Sonic returns to the ground for an auto-cancelled dair, you've gotta keep in mind that MK's uair will beat out Sonic's dair, which just means that Sonic is back in the air with +6 damage. The uair isn't that hard to time, either...it comes out on, like, frame 2 or 3 and has minimal cooldown. MK can just keep up a wall of uairs while falling at normal speed (falling uairs) to make airdodging past him much more difficult if one tries to airdodge past the uairs...in fact, Olimar has almost no way around falling uairs if MK sets them up right.

My main point is that uair > dair when Sonic tries to do an auto-cancelled dair. MK will not always have the time to do this, but it is very possible.

1) U-air comes out on frame 2 and ends 11 frames later before he can cancel it and do something else. That's roughly 5-6 U-airs per second.
2) The Olimar example works because he's falling normal speed. If Sonic is high enough (eg, double jump+spring > D-air or higher), he can airdodge after the D-air finishes, while retaining its fast momentum (it's faster than Pikachu's thunder >_>) so interrupting it from that height won't work. Any lower or with less vertical distance, then yeah, you can hit Sonic out of it.
3) Remember stale moves :3. Less knockback, less hitstun, less... damage. lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

I hate when MK is out of range (both yours and his), he quickly double jumps, and glides over to you for glide attack + Dsmash

EDIT: Tenki, are you forcing people to say ****ing m*gik*rps?

 

[Chis]

@ Chis:

You can smash DI out of the third hit of MK's bair, and smash DIing up out of MT tends to work reasonably consistently if you do it early on in the tornado. If you don't get out of MT at first, then most times, MK's got you for the rest of the tornado, but you should keep smash DIing anyways. It's still possible to smash DI out of MT in the middle of it or near its end, but it's much harder. Unless MK is fastfalling while he fairs (not a SHFF fair, but just a fair after he has started fastfalling in midair), then fair will hit with all three hits. I don't think that you can smash DI out of ftilts, but Drill Rush is really easy to smash DI out of.

But what about tap and smash DI at the same time?

 

[infomon]

But what about tap and smash DI at the same time?

Most ppl don't use the term "tap DI", we just call it smash-DI when you move around during hitlag, no matter if it's with the control stick or the C-stick, and quartercircling or not. So yes you want to do both. Optimal is probably to repeatedly quartercircle the control stick and tap the C-stick (allowing it to return to neutral between taps), all as fast as possible lol. If the control stick and the C-stick both happen to tap the same direction at the same time (same frame I guess? but I'm not sure how the input system works), then it will only count as one smash-DI tap, but that'd be extremely rare so it shouldn't matter lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Could you clarify that a little bit? Like, how high he can ascend with his jumps? If that's what you mean, he can jump from the bottom platform to the very top of the screen in Battlefield with his jumps alone. The way you phrased that is kind of vague, though.

How high and how quickly he can ascend.
I already tested so don't worry about it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

OHHHHHH **** SON the KID is back in the hisssehhh!!

infzy i saw that recovery vid you posted, and you didnt give me any credit for figuring out sonics best recovery method
WTF SON??

 

[infomon]

Holy freaking crap, I realized that before I read this post, like the moment I saw you'd posted in a thread I was like: O SNAP. Sorry about that!!

I give you props in the text beside the vid now, lulz.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no respect i tell ya,

... no respect

 

[Greenstreet]

So what's up beasties? Exams are over yay, so expect updates on chars in the next week or so. We done on the masked wonder?

 

[Blackbelt]

So what's up beasties? Exams are over yay, so expect updates on chars in the next week or so. We done on the masked wonder?

I would say so.

And the next discussion should be easy, since we just discussed it on their board.

 

[Kinzer]

Don't get grabbed, Sonic has the advantage.

By the way Greens what do you think of my guide? It's inspired by you and YagamiLight of the Ike boards.

SMASHMASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Greenstreet]

Link me mate.

Edit: Ice Climbers next lol. At least we can keep em separated..

 

[~TBS~]

Link me mate.

Edit: Ice Climbers next lol. At least we can keep em separated..

too true GS. When i play against IC, it is so easy to separate them...if its not ASC, its another move i have waiting for them right at the next moment to put the hurt on them. Its kinda easy despite the chaingrabs...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Don't underestimate the IC's. Blizzard poses a problem for many Sonic users.

 

[Kinzer]

Surprisingly, I don't find Blizzard too much of a problem, they have a blindspit on the top, which makes them good HA targets (LOLOL)!

I find the ICs too easy.

 

[aeghrur]

Kinzer, don't... say... that... >_<

 

[infomon]

Surprisingly, I don't find Blizzard too much of a problem, they have a blindspit on the top, which makes them good HA targets (LOLOL)!

lolol

It's not a blind spot. Because against good ICs, only one of them will be blizzarding. The other will be preparing a smash, Utilt, or whatever the heck it wants. Campy ICs are hard to approach.

 

[Blackbelt]

lolol

It's not a blind spot. Because against good ICs, only one of them will be blizzarding. The other will be preparing a smash, Utilt, or whatever the heck it wants. Campy ICs are hard to approach.

Not gonna argue that.


All I know is that once the ICs are sperated, they stay seperated, thanks to Sonic's excellent running speed.

 

[Greenstreet]

Blackbelt. You suck. Get off the top of the page... or bump it with me. You have your options.

Also it's good to have infzy on this one, didnt you main them?

 

[Blackbelt]

This, kids, is why sleep deprivation sucks.

 

[Greenstreet]

Bumping to the new page bru.

 

[Blackbelt]

technically, couldn't we just copy/paste/quote the discussion the ICs had on their board and call it a day, and move on to whoever is after the ICs?

 

[Greenstreet]

No. Lol coz it doesnt fit the template I use. But I will draw alot stuff from there when I do the write up.

 

[Blackbelt]

That just sounds like a waste of time. I mean, why discussed what is already discussed and finalized?

 

[Greenstreet]

Because this is my thread and this is what we do in my thread.

 

[Blackbelt]

Come on man, this is the Sonic board.



Loosen up.

 

[Greenstreet]

Lol.

We still need a structured matchup discussion, and although we might not need to discuss it for long, it needs to be in the format as the others are.

 

[Blackbelt]

Bah, even the matchup discussion I run isn't this facist.

 

[infomon]

I used to main ICs, so I know a bit about them, but was never that great.

Ummmm, don't get grabbed, lolol.

Good ICs are hard to find; it's really not just about chaingrabbing. A lot of the time, you'll grab with one, but without Nana being right close + ready to keep up a chain going, it'll be just a grab. (Although there's the low-percent single-climber CG lol, especially useful for letting Nana catch up.) Sonic is actually good at keeping 'em separated, but good ICs will excel at getting Nana back, it'll change things a lot. ex. using up-B and side-B to teleport Nana out of being combo'd. ICs have excellent disjointed hitboxes in a lot of their moves, which we know eats Sonic pretty hard.

ICs are quite gimpable if you know how, and Sonic's good at gimping... also, ICs don't have (m)any options when they're above you; watch out for their auto-fastfalling Dair, but its non-autocancelled ending lag is brutal so ICs try to avoid using it... my point being, get ICs onto a spring or otherwise in the air and our Uair should be able to juggle them alright. Their speed and acceleration is miserable both on ground and in the air which helps this battle.

Nevertheless, fear them... they have soooooo many tricks... like baiting you with a missed smash attack so they can smash or grab you with the other, lol.... and yeah blizzard is death, it makes them so hard to space around, learn to SDI out of it asap (if it doesn't freeze you lolol).

 

[Greenstreet]

WE're just tryin to get to the next page infzy so i can take the top so I can put the IC template there.
So be careful...

 

[Blackbelt]

Careful like a hedgehog in in a bear cave.

 

[Greenstreet]

No1 else post.