Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Napilopez]

Wow. I assumed there'd be more Luigi representation.

Just as there aren't too many "great" Sonic mainers out there, there also aren't that many "great" Luigi mainers. So for the sake of argument, I'll assume both sides have not felt what the other is truly capable of. All I have to go on, is that Luigi's biggest problem is opponents with more range than he (disjointed hitboxes and projectiles). Luigi is deadly at close range where his KO options turn from 2 (Missfire, bAir) to 5 (FJP, fSmash, uSmash, bThrow, nAir, dSmash), so Sonic not having ranged attacks sets him at a disadvantge compared to other characters. Jab range is Luigi's "Zona de la Muerte."

It turns into a game of how soon can Sonic build up Luigi's damage before Luigi uncharged Up-Angled fSmashes Sonic in the face. That fSmash is killer, and very spamable against other short-ranged opponents. And I won't ignore the fact that Sonic can space really well and fall back on guerilla tactics.

We are done with luigi T-T. Perhaps you can take it to the official Sonic discussion room thingamajigg, if you wanna continue discussing.

but metaaknighttt is the discussion nao =P

 

[DDM]

Would just like to point out the steakness in this totally awesome allmoostt completely manual dodge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTLwOlMxJ78

3:37. Steakk.

What a whorenado-spamming @$$hole.

 

[Napilopez]

What a whorenado-spamming @$$hole.

Lol, you should see Puffballs sig. The dude averages about 11 Nados per stock from my calculations.

 

[elheber]

We are done with luigi T-T. Perhaps you can take it to the official Sonic discussion room thingamajigg, if you wanna continue discussing.

No thank you. I had started writing that post before the previous post, that said Luigi discussion is over, existed. Besides, I agree with the OP.

 

[Tenki]

move it to here : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204990

 

[Tenki]

NEW TOPIC!:

METAKNIGHT!

I want to ****ing talk about ****ing Metaknight.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

When i play metaknight I like to use the tornado at every openning for easy damage and punishmen, not so much as an approach. I like to switch between extended and short ones to gain an edge and openning after the tornado is complete. For some reason, a lot of MK's don't do this though, although it is an extremely effective use for the move.

It is also necesary to talk about MK ledgestall counter, because as MK, it is actually fun to bait opponents into trying to punish me so that I can shuttle loop them. MK will be patient to get the shuttle loop.

Finally, you'll want to discuss how to avoid D-smash. It can be predicted pretty far in advanced, as it does require setup. You will want to make sure that you never set youself up to be killed by it.

 

[Tenki]

It is also necesary to talk about MK ledgestall counter, because as MK, it is actually fun to bait opponents into trying to punish me so that I can shuttle loop them. MK will be patient to get the shuttle loop.

Finally, you'll want to discuss how to avoid D-smash. It can be predicted pretty far in advanced, as it does require setup. You will want to make sure that you never set youself up to be killed by it.

Well, first off, you can jump over and drop a spring. Or you can run at the edge and like, be ready to shield and punish OoS.

D-smash: Don't roll towards MK. >_>

Also, don't get landcamped and airdodge into a D-smash lol.

According to hotgarbage... The first hit comes out at frame 5, and the second on frame 10. and it lasts for 34 frames.
4 frames of shield stun, which can throw people off.

 

[DDM]

We are done with luigi T-T. Perhaps you can take it to the official Sonic discussion room thingamajigg, if you wanna continue discussing.

but metaaknighttt is the discussion nao =P

Yeah, the whole thing is my bad. Sorry.

 

[Napilopez]

NEW TOPIC!:

METAKNIGHT!

I want to ****ing talk about ****ing Metaknight.

LOL.



Shuttle loop is bleh against Sonic. If you predict when it going to be used, which often really isnt that hard, lol, Spring>Dair deals with it so well. You don't know like how many times I've been playing MKs, and I'm like above them in the air, they go to use shuttle loop, only to be pwned by spring+dair >_>. Its not worth it against Sonic. And yea, fair/uair>glide attack.

An important thing about MKs hitboxes on most of his moves. They don't clang with anything. You already knew that, I'm sure, but its important to know how to apply it. If you can outrange MK, you WILL hit him. Because his moves don't clang with anything. If your hitbox extends past his, he will be pwned. Which is why SHFF Bairs are so good here. They do outrange most of MKs Aerials and ground moves I'm pretty sure. Of course his moves come out quicker, thats the main problem, but you should be wary of spacing.

And umm yea, use ftilt, lulz.

As mentioned, his shield stun is poor, so running shieldgrabs will be soo uber crucial.

I honestly think this matchuup will need to be revisited in some time, because its not as bad as it seems once you know what to do >_>. Sonic escpecially has some stuffies that allow him to do pretty well here methinks.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

By the way, a good MK will occationally charge his D-smash because he'll anticipate you trying to punish it/attack him. A lot of people fall for the magnet effect of charges smashes.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

By the way, a good MK will occationally charge his D-smash because he'll anticipate you trying to punish it/attack him. A lot of people fall for the magnet effect of charges smashes.

If you're playing PD? OHHH yeah.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If you're playing PD? OHHH yeah.

????? Family guy reference?

The information I post here is mostly relevent to my MK. There are actually a lot of different styles of MK because he has no useless attacks whatsoever, and they are all fast and effective. If you are punishing my D-smashes, then I will simply charge my smashes, and maybe even throw in a couple F-smashes.

 

[Tenki]

Phoenix Dark is notorious for pulling people into full charged smashes lol.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

He actually doesn't do it to me much anymore. Although it's only because I STOPPED trying to punish him.

Sonic's fist is freaking scary.


Oh yeah. I'm pretty sure that's how he does it too. He throws out LOADS of "safe" moves and you get into the mindset of trying to punish any little opening. You get hasty and BAM fist to the face.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This is what happens when you close Sonic Chat Room...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah. ****it. Now people are contributing. =P
Discussing player tendencies can lead to better data collection.

MK will RARELY try to charge a smash on the offensive. It's more of a tank tech.

 

[YamiJorie]

When I charge a smash, I wait for opponents to get close, then let go the smash. Works pretty well with everyone.

 

[Tenki]

MK's F-smash has startup lag, but that's about it.

It has like 5 frames of ending lag. Not very punishable :[

JUST IGNORE STUPID COMMENTS

 

[Jim Morrison]

NEW TOPIC:
I want to ****ing talk about ****ing Metaknight.

You can't **** Meta Knight, he's uncatchable.

 

[Tenki]

AHHH YEH BEAT ME D:


gg.

So yeah, it's kind of pathetic that there are hours between actual matchup related posts.

>_>

 

[Jim Morrison]

I already posted my 2 cents, I didn't even have to play MK's (Europe has no MK's, we know how to counter them)

 

[Camalange]

MK's F-smash has startup lag, but that's about it.

It has like 5 frames of ending lag. Not very punishable :[

JUST IGNORE STUPID COMMENTS

Not only that, but most MK's will use F-smash to lure you in, then you end up eating a planned D-smash.

 

[Rh1thmz]

This is what happens when you close Sonic Chat Room...

LOL XD




Anywho, now, I'll propose some theoretical stage counterpicks


Since one of MK's biggest assets is his insane gimping ability, picking stages that nullify/decrease gimping will be decent counterpicks. In addition, since MK is very prone to star KO's, places with low ceilings are optimal, as well.
~Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a good counterpick in this regard due to the fact that it is nigh impossible to gimp there. Also, the inclines on the sides of the stage make dsmash kills much harder to obtain for MK. The stage's low ceiling will make uair kills that much easier. The stage is just so small, so KOing will be much easier for Sonic. It is my belief that this could, in general, be MK's worst stage due to all of these factors (and more that I am probably forgetting).
~Corneria makes a decent counterpick, as well; the place has a low ceiling, and the blast zones on the sides are fairly close to the nose of the ship and the booster rockets of the ship (aka the edges of the stage). When recovering from the left, it might be safe at times to recover onto the guns underneath the nose of the ship, as well. The proximity of the blast zones to the stage make killing much easier for Sonic, too, which is always a plus. This is also, in general, not a favorite stage of MK.
~Sonic's very own Green Hill Zone can be another good option because of the removal of gimp kills due to walkoffs on both sides of the stage. Making good use of the checkpoints can come in handy, as well. Dsmash kills from the middle of the stage are nigh impossible for MK if you are good at teching. The high ceiling of this stage could backfire on you, but walkoffs are always an option worth considering against the king of gimp. Also, a shieldgrab near a walkoff + bthrow is always another fun way of getting quick kills; therefore, if you are good at winning those "prediction games" that occur in very close combat (for a lack of better words), then this is an option worth considering. MK can very easily turn this around on you with dsmashes and throws, too, so this is risky...

Now, before someone comes here telling me that MK has no bad stages, I'd like to concur that MK has no stages that totally wreck him; however, it is just ignorant to say that he performs on a level that is close to the best of his ability on all stages. In other words, it is still worthwhile to try to counterpick against MK.


Luigi's Mansion is a very feasible option for banning in a set against MK; he can spam tornado like no other on the bottom level, and there isn't a whole lot that you can do about it if he spams intelligently. The mansion is one of MK's best stages, too. Also, the incredibly high ceiling pretty much protects MK from easy star KO's. The blast zones are very far away from the mansion, so gimping is much easier for MK here.

 

[Kinzer]

I want to say Lylat Cruise... it has a low ceiling, and the tilting of the stage can always mess up Meta's Drill Rush recoveries... at least if they decide to go that way, but meh...

Again, you might as well go with your most comfortable stage, MK is at least average on all stages, but RH1 is kind of right at least on the unbias part...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic's not going to get gimped. ;]
He has the safest recovery in the game more or less simply because of the amount of options he has.

Green Hill Zone can get *****. I have a massive bias against that stage xD

I agree with Corneria though, because of the low ceiling, which is something MK seems susceptable to for some reason.
And you're pants-on-head ******** if you don't ban Luigi's Mansion.
Like...Sonic's worst level + MK' best = xD

 

[DDM]

Green Hill Zone can get *****. I have a massive bias against that stage xD

Quoted for irony.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Sonic does have tons of recovery options, but one dair from MK is all it takes sometimes...

On another note, Sonic's up-B on its own doesn't do any damage, so if one, for some reason, tried to sweetspot the ledge with up-B, an edgehogging MK isn't going anywhere. Also, while in Sonic's psuedo helpless mode, for a lack of a better term (aka after he uses up-B and before he comes back onto the stage), he can't grab the ledge while performing an aerial attack, and he can't use his specials while in this mode, so grabbing the ledge isn't that much of an option for Sonic. I am aware that Sonic usually doesn't need to grab the ledge to recover safely, this isn't much of an option when Sonic runs out of jumps/gets gimped a little bit from something like MK's dair and is forced to try and grab the ledge. In other words, Sonic will usually be out of luck on the occasion where he needs to grab/sweetspot the ledge.

Also, it really isn't that hard to hit Sonic out of a side-B recovery attempt with MK's fair.

I am aware that MK will not always be positioned properly to fair Sonic's side-B or to dair Sonic back off of the stage, but there will definitely be points during the match where MK is positioned properly for a gimp attempt. My point is that while Sonic is a hard character to gimp, MK's gimping ability is, obviously, nothing to be scoffed at or ignored.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah definately, I just don't think it should be a major part of gameplay trying to avoid being gimped.
For example playing on Yoshi's Island (the pipe one, yeah?) that you said earlier would kinda be detrimental to Sonic's gameplay in that it takes away one of Sonic's most important attribute, doesn't give him much room to create an opening to attack.

I wasn't discrediting you or anything. Thanks for the input

 

[Stealth Raptor]

whoops wrong forum

 

[ROOOOY!]

Well played.
<3

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i know im becoming a sonic with my spam. perhaps i should pick him up....

 

[Rh1thmz]

No, it's fine, really. I was just trying to discuss our claims and come to a consensus of sorts through healthy debate. I know my post didn't sound so much like healthy debate to you guys =( Sorry about that. I probably should've thought twice about the tone of my post =l

That is an interesting point that you bring up about Yoshi's Island, though. It does detract from Sonic's gameplay, but I do believe that it takes away from MK's more due to the factors mentioned in my above post, so it probably isn't that bad of a counterpick choice.

On a side note, not a whole lot of people have much experience playing on Yoshi's Island...at least from my experience. The same thing applies with Brinstar, but Sonic doesn't perform very well on that stage, so forget that stage for now =p Yoshi's Island is kind of an awkward stage, so knowing the stage well could prove advantageous.

I could be completely wrong about what I just said in that last paragraph, but I rarely see any matches that are played on Yoshi's Island or Brinstar (then again, who actually performs well on Brinstar? lol).

 

[Kinzer]

I herd Samus doez.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Tenki used to go on about Brinstar a lot lol.
I never looked into it too much though. The stage just looks too lame for me to take seriously.

I have quite a lot of success on Rainbow Cruise of all places against MK. This goes for Sonic, but for when I'm playing against MK with any character I use half-seriously really.

Have you any thoughts on that stage? Metaknight just seemed to be kinda...lacking there.

 

[Tenki]

question:
MK's double jump = MK's shorthop (?)

or is it higher?

 

[Rh1thmz]

I have quite a lot of success on Rainbow Cruise of all places against MK. This goes for Sonic, but for when I'm playing against MK with any character I use half-seriously really.

Have you any thoughts on that stage? Metaknight just seemed to be kinda...lacking there.

MK actually does really well on Rainbow Cruise. Most characters can't keep up with MK on Rainbow Cruise due to the left section with the multitude of small platforms. MK simply uses his well-rounded air game to own people here because the majority of the fighting on the left side of the stage's rotation is in the air, which is where MK trumps the cast. However, Sonic is reasonably comfortable in the air, too, and he doesn't have too many troubles recovering, so he shouldn't be as affected as most of the cast by Rainbow Cruise in this matchup. Also, the walkoffs on the upper portion of the rotation eliminate gimp kills, and the lack of platforms keep more of the fighting on the ground. Overall, Rainbow Cruise is a good stage for MK, though, and is a lethal counterpick against some characters like, say, Ganondorf >.< Sonic shouldn't have as much trouble here as the rest of the cast, though.

question:
MK's double jump = MK's shorthop (?)

or is it higher?

Three things:

1. You could've tested that lol =p

2. Well, I just went into training mode and full hopped followed by 5 double jumps executed as close to the ground as I possibly could, and then I shorthopped afterwards...in other words, I did some lame testing where I eyeballed it lol...Anyways, they look nearly the same height. The short hop was actually going just as high as the double jumps were, but the double jumps have to be executed while aerial, so it leads me to believe that the shorthop goes slightly higher than his double jumps.

3. Why were you wondering? I'm just curious.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Determine tot he extent of which he can pursue an opponent vertically.

 

[ShadowLink84]

on an interesting note. You can dashshield grab through alot of attacks with Sonic since he slides quite a bit and has a good amount of traction.

I was using it on a number of characters.

 

[PhoenixoKaZe]

on an interesting note. You can dashshield grab through alot of attacks with Sonic since he slides quite a bit and has a good amount of traction.

I was using it on a number of characters.

Yea, it helps to grabbing him fast out of a d-smash, tornado, and tilts XD ^^, on a lesser spam note, I somehow managed to f-smash clashed the tornado and stopped him for a second to do a f-tilt or any fast move for sonic. Sry for not contributing as much, I`ve doing pretty well against mks and hve alot of experience against them o-o ^^