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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I live in NY. Tenki is in GA.
Camalenge is in PA.
pick your poison.
Camalenge is in PA.
pick your poison.
It was between GA and AR.
Aside from lag issues, a few things that I did pick up:
- F-tilt is kind of... really not safe in this matchup, especially on shield lol. Max range F-tilt is still grab range for D3.
- Side-B is kind of sorta awesome. From invincibility frames breaking B-airs to delaying just enough for the edgeguard attempt to fall too far, or testing to see if D3 will spotdodge (while being able to escape if he does something else). It's super good.
- Footstool >>> Dedede's U-tilt (lol)
- Dedede's F-smash != Ike F-smash.
Aside from lag issues, a few things that I did pick up:
- F-tilt is kind of... really not safe in this matchup, especially on shield lol. Max range F-tilt is still grab range for D3.
- Side-B is kind of sorta awesome. From invincibility frames breaking B-airs to delaying just enough for the edgeguard attempt to fall too far, or testing to see if D3 will spotdodge (while being able to escape if he does something else). It's super good.
- Footstool >>> Dedede's U-tilt (lol)
- Dedede's F-smash != Ike F-smash.
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
I'm from NY.
I wants to play.
That's 4 now.
I wants to play.
That's 4 now.
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
I was.
I can play whoever.
Cam, if you're ready, I'd rather play you. Sorry qwerty......
I can play whoever.
Cam, if you're ready, I'd rather play you. Sorry qwerty......
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
*has to go to place in a moment*
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
This is true. I got rocked whenever I f-tilted... =T
Chis
Finally a legend
A much more appropriate picture of Pit I say.Pit - Character Matchup 24
Introduction
Behaviour:
Commonly Used Moves:
How to Win:
Recommended Stages:
Matchup Summary:
Discuss//
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Come on stop joking around you.
Anyways concerning DDD use SH approaches, he cannot grab you out of them I think and you can use your Fair and double jump again before he can turn around and grab you.
Anyways concerning Pit.
Pit I am unsure about. Alot of the time I feel like the match can sway either way between the two.
The main reason being is that Pit's attack range overall is rather poor, with the exception of his Dair and glide attack, the majority of his attacks have range equivalent to jabs.
He has some methods of dealing with it, angelic stepping being one but on the whole, he can have a tough time with his opponent at medium range because of the zoning issue.
The primary thing Sonic has to deal with is Pit's aerial game and his projectile game. Groundgame wise Pit doesn't do extremely well because of the range issue and will be relying on a defensive game. Pit is a pain to approach, not because the arrows are threatening in themselves, but because of the situation that they force sonic to be in.
Every good pit will fire an arrow to land in front of Sonic to fend off his ground approaches forcing an aerial approach. At which point, pit can use his aerials to attack Sonic.
Of course sonic has methods of dealing with it, being able to cancel his dashes and approach pit is rather god considering the firing rate of the arrows and can be used to go for a spincharge (assuming they fire another arrow) which will allow you to begin pressuring Pit.
Assuming pit uses only a singular arrow (to allow Sonic to move in closer for his attacks) its better to attempt to zone pit with Bair, Ftilt.
Priority isn't as major an issue when facing Pit. Again its primarily because of the range issue and with the exception of Pit's Dair, Sonic has methods of avoiding direct battle with Pit.
I'll presume 55:45 to 60:40 for Pit. he has an easier time killing in spite of his range issues and has a better aerial game. Nor does he have to fear Sonic's gimping game either (seriously, gimping Pit is hard. Unless you land a semispiked Dair expect Pit to get back on the stage).
Anyways concerning DDD use SH approaches, he cannot grab you out of them I think and you can use your Fair and double jump again before he can turn around and grab you.
Anyways concerning Pit.
Pit I am unsure about. Alot of the time I feel like the match can sway either way between the two.
The main reason being is that Pit's attack range overall is rather poor, with the exception of his Dair and glide attack, the majority of his attacks have range equivalent to jabs.
He has some methods of dealing with it, angelic stepping being one but on the whole, he can have a tough time with his opponent at medium range because of the zoning issue.
The primary thing Sonic has to deal with is Pit's aerial game and his projectile game. Groundgame wise Pit doesn't do extremely well because of the range issue and will be relying on a defensive game. Pit is a pain to approach, not because the arrows are threatening in themselves, but because of the situation that they force sonic to be in.
Every good pit will fire an arrow to land in front of Sonic to fend off his ground approaches forcing an aerial approach. At which point, pit can use his aerials to attack Sonic.
Of course sonic has methods of dealing with it, being able to cancel his dashes and approach pit is rather god considering the firing rate of the arrows and can be used to go for a spincharge (assuming they fire another arrow) which will allow you to begin pressuring Pit.
Assuming pit uses only a singular arrow (to allow Sonic to move in closer for his attacks) its better to attempt to zone pit with Bair, Ftilt.
Priority isn't as major an issue when facing Pit. Again its primarily because of the range issue and with the exception of Pit's Dair, Sonic has methods of avoiding direct battle with Pit.
I'll presume 55:45 to 60:40 for Pit. he has an easier time killing in spite of his range issues and has a better aerial game. Nor does he have to fear Sonic's gimping game either (seriously, gimping Pit is hard. Unless you land a semispiked Dair expect Pit to get back on the stage).
JayBee
Smash Champion
i wount assume anything in this case, id like to hear what people way about this matchup.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Thank you for the contribution XD
WHAT DO YOU THINk!?
WHAT DO YOU THINk!?
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
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- Lincolnshire, England.
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We've already discussed Pit you numbnuts xD
Decided neutral. If it was decided disadvantage I would die laughing.
I don't think Dedede is neutral, moar disadvantage. But then, I disagree with most of the stuff we've done so far. xD
Decided neutral. If it was decided disadvantage I would die laughing.
I don't think Dedede is neutral, moar disadvantage. But then, I disagree with most of the stuff we've done so far. xD
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Who're we discussing? Dedede?
Dedede has a legit CG on Sonic, however it has a need for precision, because a few frames off could mean Sonic would spring away. His Back air is also a pain to deal with. Your F-air will not beat it. Also he has a projectile to spam, but it is slow and unsafe. It has lag and not enough range. If he tries to hit you, move to the edge. If he moves closer to you, trying to hit you, wait for him to miss you and run up to him. Ur 2 fast.
Punish a Waddle Dee spamming Dedede. HARD.
This is all theory, I never actually fought a Dedede, lul.
I'd say 60:40 disadvantage Sonic, because D3 has B-air.
Dedede has a legit CG on Sonic, however it has a need for precision, because a few frames off could mean Sonic would spring away. His Back air is also a pain to deal with. Your F-air will not beat it. Also he has a projectile to spam, but it is slow and unsafe. It has lag and not enough range. If he tries to hit you, move to the edge. If he moves closer to you, trying to hit you, wait for him to miss you and run up to him. Ur 2 fast.
Punish a Waddle Dee spamming Dedede. HARD.
This is all theory, I never actually fought a Dedede, lul.
I'd say 60:40 disadvantage Sonic, because D3 has B-air.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
DDD!!!
random helpful advice....if u spring to dair and u c hes camping ur landing with ur shield u have 2 options...u can either a) time a spotdodge for the instant u hit the ground or b....footstool him as ur coming down...since the dair ends b4 u hit the ground.
random helpful advice....if u spring to dair and u c hes camping ur landing with ur shield u have 2 options...u can either a) time a spotdodge for the instant u hit the ground or b....footstool him as ur coming down...since the dair ends b4 u hit the ground.
Kinzer
Mammy
Have you tried using your Bair to counter D3's Bair GF2?
Anyway Chis you gave poor ol' SL the thought that we were discussing Pit. I am also bawwing at the idea of how Sonic is at any seriously disadvantage against Pit, but meh we all have our opinions. (Like for example we seriously need to go back to look at Donkey... how is that fat baboon a bad matchup for us again? I 2-stocked this DK in a tourney match with relative ease!)
But seriously now, if we're going to talk about D3, somebody should at least steal the top of a page so that we can bookmark this shiz...
Anyway Chis you gave poor ol' SL the thought that we were discussing Pit. I am also bawwing at the idea of how Sonic is at any seriously disadvantage against Pit, but meh we all have our opinions. (Like for example we seriously need to go back to look at Donkey... how is that fat baboon a bad matchup for us again? I 2-stocked this DK in a tourney match with relative ease!)
But seriously now, if we're going to talk about D3, somebody should at least steal the top of a page so that we can bookmark this shiz...
Browny
Smash Hater
nice reference lol... and DK isn't easy
Kinzer
Mammy
I kind of think oterwise.
The ape has a huge-hurtbox, therefore ASC-food. Next his recovery has a void on the top, meaning psuedo Dair-spikes are easy to land.
He is much harder on the ground than in the air, his Bairs can be outspaced by spamming Uairs for example (they're too good). Trying to stay in the air helps too, seeing as how a couple of his ground attacks rely on you being ******** with your SDR aproaches and anything similar. If you can avoid his strong attacks (getting hit by a SS FSmash at 80% is a b****... -_-), I would think you both will be living to the same %age.
I won't think DK has any advantage on Sonic unless they can at least beat with with one fresh stock, and even then they probably got lucky somehow.
The ape has a huge-hurtbox, therefore ASC-food. Next his recovery has a void on the top, meaning psuedo Dair-spikes are easy to land.
He is much harder on the ground than in the air, his Bairs can be outspaced by spamming Uairs for example (they're too good). Trying to stay in the air helps too, seeing as how a couple of his ground attacks rely on you being ******** with your SDR aproaches and anything similar. If you can avoid his strong attacks (getting hit by a SS FSmash at 80% is a b****... -_-), I would think you both will be living to the same %age.
I won't think DK has any advantage on Sonic unless they can at least beat with with one fresh stock, and even then they probably got lucky somehow.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
Not to be disrespectful in anyway shape or form but im pretty sure i can beat u with my DK and have 2 stocks left. im not saying it wont b 2 stocks @ 210% but it will b 2 stocks. and i am going to punish each and every ASC or spindash u do.
Kinzer
Mammy
Can you Lag-Fi now even though Lag-Fi really tells nothing Malcolm? I would rather be proven wrong than sound ignorant (even though I still kind of feel that DK is neutral).
Edit: S***, he wen't offline...
Well here, i'm gonig to go play some DotA, although I'll have my AIM on, so if you get this message, feel free to beep me and I (should) will reply to you.
Edit: S***, he wen't offline...
Well here, i'm gonig to go play some DotA, although I'll have my AIM on, so if you get this message, feel free to beep me and I (should) will reply to you.
well, think about it, if you ASC, you will most likely jump and aerial.
if you jump, you're bait for a FH U-air out of shield.
If you spring, he shields the spring and punishes your landing.
PS:
make a matchup export for Dedede.
I refuse to accept numbers without Dedede input ;3
if you jump, you're bait for a FH U-air out of shield.
If you spring, he shields the spring and punishes your landing.
PS:
make a matchup export for Dedede.
I refuse to accept numbers without Dedede input ;3
I agree with Tenki on the DDD input thing.
Also though, I think DDD has a 60:40 advantage too because he has:
Range(even more than our U-air I think)
CG(although spring helps against this)
Power-this is important as he can kill sonic outright and not risk us using momentum cancel and surviving
good recovery(although U-smash eats his Up-B I heard)
Weight/endurance
Also though, I think DDD has a 60:40 advantage too because he has:
Range(even more than our U-air I think)
CG(although spring helps against this)
Power-this is important as he can kill sonic outright and not risk us using momentum cancel and surviving
good recovery(although U-smash eats his Up-B I heard)
Weight/endurance
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Everything destroys his ^B, I've managed to Fair and Bair him.
never tried Nair and Dair.
never tried Nair and Dair.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I'll do the export thread to DDD.
Dedede is unkillable vertical as Sonic. Don't attempt it. F-smash/D-smash is really how you kill. Gimping a backwards recovering DDD is hard enough when he spams B-airs, so gimping will be a challenge.
Dedede is unkillable vertical as Sonic. Don't attempt it. F-smash/D-smash is really how you kill. Gimping a backwards recovering DDD is hard enough when he spams B-airs, so gimping will be a challenge.
Kinzer
Mammy
Don't get banned now G2, Bl_lzz locked one of my export threads in the Zelda boards... although he was right in telling me to just taking a look for the right trhead to make the invitation...
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Are there Matchup invitation threads...?
You get me a D3 matchup invitation thread. If not, I'll make it anyway.
You get me a D3 matchup invitation thread. If not, I'll make it anyway.
Kinzer
Mammy
Well, according to him, all these invitation threads are "spam"... but eh why do I care? If it gets locked, you really just happened to get unlucky with a mod who paid attention. I done the stupid thing 12 times in the other character boards before he locked it in the Zelda boards...
I'm telling you not to do it, but I'm not stopping you, the higher authorities on this forum really need more work to be done...
I'm telling you not to do it, but I'm not stopping you, the higher authorities on this forum really need more work to be done...
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
My turn to do a character
King Dedede - Character Matchup 33
MALCOLM HELPS YOU FIGHT DEDEDE
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7066106#post7066106
Let's see.. D3..
That's a character you should never approach unless you KNOW there's an opening, or you're really good at feinting. SHFAir wrecks their shield, however they can grab you out of it if they time it right. For the love of god don't get greedy, don't fish for those kills. Just rack up damage and let the kill come naturally, don't expect to kill until 180+, unless you KNOW there's an opening.
Camp camp camp. Get that lead, and camp. Chill around the edge of the stage, so if you **** up and get grabbed, it's only one or two throws. If you're thrown off the edge, get back on ASAP, D3's edge guard game is ********. You're going to have to mix up your recoveries (Such as ASC -> Double Jump). Don't just blindly go for the edge. Take the extra damage if you have too, it's better than losing a stock.
D3 is such a basic character, just like Ice Climbers. All they want is grab. Bait the grab and punish, very simple. If they EVER try to pummel you in grab, you can break out of that easily due to his slow pummel. When you get to about 120%+, start looking out for those UTilts. Never approach him from above, or stay on a platform above him. If you find yourself in a nasty situation on a platform above him holding your shield, just jump. All you have to do, OoS Jump, lol.
Sometimes they like to mix in dash attack while they're chaingrabbing for people who are trying to break out, and catch them off guard. Easily avoidable with shield grab if you see it coming.
DON'T GET PREDICTABLE
Punish him whenever he throws a minion. There is so much lag on it, you can at least punish with a dash attack or SHFAir. Careful of Waddle Doos, I've seen some nasty Waddle Doo -> UAir combos from their electric attack if they're good. If they try to use swallow just spinshot -> BAir that crap. Rocket Hammer is laughable.
FSmash and the very tip of BAir (Perfectly spaced) will push a shielding D3 far enough away that you will not get grabbed. However, I've been grabbed a couple of times before my FSmash and BAir even went off, and if they perfect shield the hit, they get a free grab. Try at your own risk.
All I can think of right now, go ahead and ask any questions if you need answers. Just remember, there is NEVER a reason for you to approach if you're winning. Only approach if you see an opening, and be CAREFUL of getting baited to approach.
By Trent
King Dedede - Character Matchup 33
MALCOLM HELPS YOU FIGHT DEDEDE
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7066106#post7066106
Let's see.. D3..
That's a character you should never approach unless you KNOW there's an opening, or you're really good at feinting. SHFAir wrecks their shield, however they can grab you out of it if they time it right. For the love of god don't get greedy, don't fish for those kills. Just rack up damage and let the kill come naturally, don't expect to kill until 180+, unless you KNOW there's an opening.
Camp camp camp. Get that lead, and camp. Chill around the edge of the stage, so if you **** up and get grabbed, it's only one or two throws. If you're thrown off the edge, get back on ASAP, D3's edge guard game is ********. You're going to have to mix up your recoveries (Such as ASC -> Double Jump). Don't just blindly go for the edge. Take the extra damage if you have too, it's better than losing a stock.
D3 is such a basic character, just like Ice Climbers. All they want is grab. Bait the grab and punish, very simple. If they EVER try to pummel you in grab, you can break out of that easily due to his slow pummel. When you get to about 120%+, start looking out for those UTilts. Never approach him from above, or stay on a platform above him. If you find yourself in a nasty situation on a platform above him holding your shield, just jump. All you have to do, OoS Jump, lol.
Sometimes they like to mix in dash attack while they're chaingrabbing for people who are trying to break out, and catch them off guard. Easily avoidable with shield grab if you see it coming.
DON'T GET PREDICTABLE
Punish him whenever he throws a minion. There is so much lag on it, you can at least punish with a dash attack or SHFAir. Careful of Waddle Doos, I've seen some nasty Waddle Doo -> UAir combos from their electric attack if they're good. If they try to use swallow just spinshot -> BAir that crap. Rocket Hammer is laughable.
FSmash and the very tip of BAir (Perfectly spaced) will push a shielding D3 far enough away that you will not get grabbed. However, I've been grabbed a couple of times before my FSmash and BAir even went off, and if they perfect shield the hit, they get a free grab. Try at your own risk.
All I can think of right now, go ahead and ask any questions if you need answers. Just remember, there is NEVER a reason for you to approach if you're winning. Only approach if you see an opening, and be CAREFUL of getting baited to approach.
By Trent
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh snap son, I forgot to count the posts on the last page! :O
Good work G2, just make sure you add the picture for King D3... the one from the Dojo works just fine.
Good work G2, just make sure you add the picture for King D3... the one from the Dojo works just fine.
TL;DR of past discussion
======================
Oh, also, it seems like Dedede's aerials and attacks have alot less commitment time than I thought.
I'm gonna make a more specific matchup export post then >_>
======================
======================
======================
Oh, also, it seems like Dedede's aerials and attacks have alot less commitment time than I thought.
I'm gonna make a more specific matchup export post then >_>
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Already did that. Read up, fool.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Projectiles aren't really a big issue agaisnt D3 if you're moving. We know that D3 rely on Grabs, and tilts on the ground. if you get grabbed, you will get chained unless they mess up which on most neutrals means a free edgegaurd attempt. However, sonic can minimalize the effect of grabs pretty well if he is solid withi hi sground game.
Quick movements outside of his f-tilt range, and fakes and punishment with spins; used intellegently they seem to be the best option for damage against d3, because not only is his size a weakness agaisnt Spindash combos, they also give you the option of escape if it is blocked, preventing a possible chaingrab attempt. Also, tilts are very unsafe against a defensive d3 due to the grab range. D3's best options to try to stop your graound assult is to try to predict and punish with tilts, and bair, and as a last resort use his quick sidedodege, which you should expect. if the D3 is really good expect several reverse grab attempts. punish with grabs and get the most damage u can the moment he gets predictable, using your speed and feints to trick the D3 into additional setups.
either of you are over the edge, i thnk its 50/50. both characters have strong recovery and can have a hard time gimping the other one just as well IMHO. Beware of bair edgegaurding and the strong possibility of a DDDcide if the match gets close or he has a stock lead. remember, that if he gets you with it and you both have one stock, he wins in tourneys now.
dair and uair are really good tools for punishment and ledgecamping for D3, but the tendancy to use them varies from player to player. he can anticipate attacks from below with it, so bait and punish that if you can.
Predict patterns in the usage of his tilts and bairs, then punish the likely spotdodges. Constant movment to avoid getting chaingrabbed. Use the spins and thier feints, throw setups. and followups to the fullest extent to deal damage and put pressure on D3. You can deal lots of damage quickly to him and for the most part take little, but the secoond you get grabbed DDD gets the advantage. combined with his wieght he gets more chances to do it.
Kojin's judgement: 55:45 slightly disadvantage for Sonic, but winnable nonetheless.
Quick movements outside of his f-tilt range, and fakes and punishment with spins; used intellegently they seem to be the best option for damage against d3, because not only is his size a weakness agaisnt Spindash combos, they also give you the option of escape if it is blocked, preventing a possible chaingrab attempt. Also, tilts are very unsafe against a defensive d3 due to the grab range. D3's best options to try to stop your graound assult is to try to predict and punish with tilts, and bair, and as a last resort use his quick sidedodege, which you should expect. if the D3 is really good expect several reverse grab attempts. punish with grabs and get the most damage u can the moment he gets predictable, using your speed and feints to trick the D3 into additional setups.
either of you are over the edge, i thnk its 50/50. both characters have strong recovery and can have a hard time gimping the other one just as well IMHO. Beware of bair edgegaurding and the strong possibility of a DDDcide if the match gets close or he has a stock lead. remember, that if he gets you with it and you both have one stock, he wins in tourneys now.
dair and uair are really good tools for punishment and ledgecamping for D3, but the tendancy to use them varies from player to player. he can anticipate attacks from below with it, so bait and punish that if you can.
Predict patterns in the usage of his tilts and bairs, then punish the likely spotdodges. Constant movment to avoid getting chaingrabbed. Use the spins and thier feints, throw setups. and followups to the fullest extent to deal damage and put pressure on D3. You can deal lots of damage quickly to him and for the most part take little, but the secoond you get grabbed DDD gets the advantage. combined with his wieght he gets more chances to do it.
Kojin's judgement: 55:45 slightly disadvantage for Sonic, but winnable nonetheless.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
I got a question. I was conversing with Blue(good Sonic main in jersey with tourney results that is good) and we all know about his campy Sonic. I have seen him destroy D3's with his campy SH fairs. Is that a good strat against him?
Kinzer
Mammy
Well, kind of... D3 outranges you, so why not make him do the unfavorable stuff... like approaching you? (Because Waddles don't count as a real projectile... and as if Sonic had any real trouble with a slow, fat, trajectory-set *shot*)
JayBee
Smash Champion
yeah certainly if d3 sprroaches you the whole match you are in teh green, but seriously, they don't do that not the good ones. its general knowledge that your best bet is to be passive aggressive againt a movement oriented sonic, unless your metaknight... or sonic...
theyll be most aggro after grabbing you usually. most other forms of approach are merely bait attempts in disguise.
or sonic...theyll be most aggro after grabbing you usually. most other forms of approach are merely bait attempts in disguise.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
So F-air seems like a pretty safe move, I don't know if D3 can shieldgrab it or not.
Do not perform aerials with noticable landing (SHFF F-air/D-air). Use U-air/B-air/SH F-air. I'd not be grab happy this match, Dedede has 4x your grab range.
Also, fun fact: Foxtrot (bait Dedede F-tilt or something), wait a while, press A and do Dash Attack (you have a long time to wait, really, try it.)
NEED MOAR DEDEDE INPUT
Do not perform aerials with noticable landing (SHFF F-air/D-air). Use U-air/B-air/SH F-air. I'd not be grab happy this match, Dedede has 4x your grab range.
Also, fun fact: Foxtrot (bait Dedede F-tilt or something), wait a while, press A and do Dash Attack (you have a long time to wait, really, try it.)
NEED MOAR DEDEDE INPUT
We're not too slow.
Dedede has an advantage. 60:40 Dedede seems right, 55:45 at the absolute minimum, 70:30 in a perfect world.
I only have a little experience against my friend's Sonic and he plays it pretty gay. He pretty much just waits off on the complete opposite side of the stage and waits for me to do something and then runs in and punishes. I doubt this is what all Sonics do, but when he doesn't do this I beat him pretty soundly. It's also annoying how hard it is to gimp Sonic. He's too hard to WoP to death so once I get off the stage I can pretty much only ledgecamp bairs or try a Dededecide. I really like Inhale in this matchup and use it quite often.
Also, do all Sonic mains have the same avvy now? jw
Dedede has an advantage. 60:40 Dedede seems right, 55:45 at the absolute minimum, 70:30 in a perfect world.
I only have a little experience against my friend's Sonic and he plays it pretty gay. He pretty much just waits off on the complete opposite side of the stage and waits for me to do something and then runs in and punishes. I doubt this is what all Sonics do, but when he doesn't do this I beat him pretty soundly. It's also annoying how hard it is to gimp Sonic. He's too hard to WoP to death so once I get off the stage I can pretty much only ledgecamp bairs or try a Dededecide. I really like Inhale in this matchup and use it quite often.
Also, do all Sonic mains have the same avvy now? jw