Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Fairing on the way up is dangerous because of the windown lag. However, fairing on the way down is relatively safe even when whiffed (some characters can still punish it, but it's much better than missing while going up)
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Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
Looking at that last match, I really want to see Pokemon Trainer get a better change system. You could choose just Ivy to have the advantage of not needing to switch to get to back to Ivy but the disadvantage comes when you get a first stock like Vex had in the last match. Now you're stuck thinking that Ivy wasn't the best choice after all, but you are stuck as him where as playing as Pokemon Trainer would give you that bail out option to change the matchup. But right now the change system sucks...
Anywho, great vids. Spam has a nice Marth.
Yea but it seems like you're wide open when fairing down, while you go up.
But it's better because from that empty shorthop you can do anything out of it (aerial-wise), this means you don't have as much commitment lag. Like if you're walling with rising fairs, I can time my shield dash and grab you because you're forced to commit to your attack the whole way.
Fair while going down is overall the safer option, but of course there's a time and place for everything.
Even so, it was really just Vex not keeping up with the Brawl+ scene. He didn't know about the option to press shield to switch Pokemon on death, nor the Glide Stop add-on in the MK match either.
Because I'm sure he could've switched to Squirtle and possibly tried to overwhelm Marth with quick rushdown and it wouldn't have been as devastating on his end.
IDK how Charizard fares against B+ Marth, it was close in vB but that's because that game didn't make Charizard an entirely large target of ****.
Revven
FrankerZ
I'd be afraid right now, Zard has a lot more options than he does in vBrawl. I've uploaded some of my recent Zard matches and, he ***** a lot now. Marth obviously has the range on Zard but, Zard has some pretty sweet combos and Rock Smash is pretty ridiculous if you do it right.
Not really sure myself though. Haven't played a good Marth.
Rock Smash is such a pain to deal with. It acts kinda like a counter attack if you attack him during the first few frames because you break the rock for him and take damage anyways. Makes it a very surprisingly safe move if you know what you are doing.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Well...yes and no. If you're in range to hit with the first fair (and think it will be shielded) then it can help with shield pressure. But beyond that it's really not that good (since the opponent can easily hit you between fairs if the first one whiffs).
The effectiveness doesn't really come from the first fair at all, but rather the possibility of doing that fair at any time during your shorthop. If you're in range to do that fair, then you do it (and then do another one on the way down because that one is effective) If you think you'll whiff, then just float there and fair on the way back down. There's pretty much no commitment to attacking, which is what makes it useful.
Apparently I'm busy for the whole month of May, but I'll buckle down until then to get something up here.
Until then though, I'm wondering...how bogus is Dancing Blade?
Like I want some evidence that it's as bogus at it seems...what's its frame advantage? For each ending variation especially?
While I am not trying to question buffs/nerfs, I can't help but think Marth as he is now is just too beast at everything. On paper it looks like he can completely wipe out the defensive aspect of the "rock-paper-scissors" metaphor. That's bad.
This project emphasizes offensive play, but defense is still important. I don't want any aspect of play to be largely favored over another. However, I shouldn't be hypocritical and rant about this. I want answers instead. ^_^
What do you like to use it for? If it's shielded, do you stop, or continue? How often are you punished if you land any DB on shield? What does the opponent use to punish it? What characters have trouble getting around DB?
Discuss?
Until then though, I'm wondering...how bogus is Dancing Blade?
Like I want some evidence that it's as bogus at it seems...what's its frame advantage? For each ending variation especially?
While I am not trying to question buffs/nerfs, I can't help but think Marth as he is now is just too beast at everything. On paper it looks like he can completely wipe out the defensive aspect of the "rock-paper-scissors" metaphor. That's bad.
This project emphasizes offensive play, but defense is still important. I don't want any aspect of play to be largely favored over another. However, I shouldn't be hypocritical and rant about this. I want answers instead. ^_^
What do you like to use it for? If it's shielded, do you stop, or continue? How often are you punished if you land any DB on shield? What does the opponent use to punish it? What characters have trouble getting around DB?
Discuss?
Wow these bogus levels are quite something.
I guess Marth was just too sexy for untampered fun speed activate.
Anyway GHNeko, you wanna be in charge of character discussions? I'm notoriously bad for being lazy at writing the match-up synopsis (look at the TL boards; I only did very few).
Like you can lead them and write the match-up summaries. <_<
We can even like...split the characters or something.
Also, what exactly was done to nerf DB in the public nightly? The shield stun changes, or something not written into the changelog?
We can even like...split the characters or something.
Also, what exactly was done to nerf DB in the public nightly? The shield stun changes, or something not written into the changelog?
Nike.
Smash Hero
Idk if I'd be of any help, but i could try if youd like me to :D
Nike.
Smash Hero
Start off with popular characters that everyone is abusing.
Meaning Fox and Falcon lol
Meaning Fox and Falcon lol
dabridge
Smash Journeyman
Well, I can easily say Marth's my other main. He's just like Melee Marth, 'cept, it feels like B+ Marth has a little less range, but whatever. It's so easy to kill now, without stale moves. The ALR also helps him so much, making him ridiculously fast. His side-b seems broken actually, it's too good. I haven't seen anyone I play get out of it.
I know it's kind of off topic (disscussing matchups), but I just wanted to say that. Sorry. xD
I know it's kind of off topic (disscussing matchups), but I just wanted to say that. Sorry. xD
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Question about the DB. What anyone really experiment with what can be done with just the first hit only into other things on B+?
Veril
Frame Savant
What does this mean?
These are words... but...
TRANSLATION POWERS GO!
SHDB > FF Every Aerial
SHDB > Every Aerial
SHDB > DB
SHDB > DJDB > FF Aerial
That's generally it for now. Lol.
Veril
Frame Savant
Best power ever <3
Metatitan
Smash Master
so what would u all say is marth's worst matchup? and does he have adv on mk now?
luvs2pluck
Smash Apprentice
So true, so very, very true.
As for Falcon, try hard to get him in the air early. He can be easily juggled for a great amount of damage, but is pretty stage dependent and on how well your opponent DIs. Usually expect to get at least 35% on him from an early juggle, but you can easily get 60-70 if you use platforms to help yourself out.
Speaking of juggling, what do you guys feel is the best setup right now for it? An autocancelled uair seems to be the way to go. Utilt hits them in the perfect area, but its still too laggy (unless you connect at the very end of the move), and uthrow throws most away too far. Haven't experimented much with DB4up, but that seems like it could potentially work.
Magus420
Smash Master
Autocanceled u-air? The attack lag of using it just before landing is nearly the same as his normal landing lag you'd get when autocanceling anyway and you leave yourself committed to the attack for awhile before landing. Seems like it'd be better suited like that for the juggle itself than as the setup move unless the opportunity comes up to hit them that way. Does it easily shieldstab the top of people's shields or something?
Nike.
Smash Hero
DB up isvery nice for setting up juggling. But it may be semi-situational. You want to use normal DB if your close to the edge and it forces an instant edge guarding situation. It should also be used if the opponent is 80% or higher, no matter who it is.
DB Down is if you got caught hitting a shield and you hope to poke them out of it when they think there about to shieldgrab you.
Otherwise, DB up is very nice. Like you said luvs2pluck, (I laughed while typing that) stages like battlefield or warioware are delicious. It's a forced tech chase of a platform. Fair or Nair if they tech towards the edge of the stage, forcing them off it. Uair if you feel like juggling and if there at the right %. Nair covers nearly the entire platform, and it my personal favorite.
On a random side note (everyone should already know this, but it's easy to punish) Do not DBup if the third hit put them out of range. Most ppl do it rather quick and accidently get spaced on the 4th hit, and then your punished.
DB Down is if you got caught hitting a shield and you hope to poke them out of it when they think there about to shieldgrab you.
Otherwise, DB up is very nice. Like you said luvs2pluck, (I laughed while typing that) stages like battlefield or warioware are delicious. It's a forced tech chase of a platform. Fair or Nair if they tech towards the edge of the stage, forcing them off it. Uair if you feel like juggling and if there at the right %. Nair covers nearly the entire platform, and it my personal favorite.
On a random side note (everyone should already know this, but it's easy to punish) Do not DBup if the third hit put them out of range. Most ppl do it rather quick and accidently get spaced on the 4th hit, and then your punished.
luvs2pluck
Smash Apprentice
Sorry I guess I got my terminology wrong. I mean to use the uair right before you land, so its only out for like 1/3 or 1/4 of its total animation but still connects. Like how you would land a uair when trying to do a uair > usmash combo in vbrawl
Mission accomplished. And good point about DB4 missing sometimes. I'll have to start using nair for techs on platforms, Ive always centered myself under the platform and used utilt, but nair sounds like a much better option.
DB Down is more of a conditioning tool for shield poking because it can still be shielded by angling your shield.
As for juggling, I ususally use uthrow on FFers and utilt on everyone else as I dont have the finger control to use FF'd Uairs near the ground for juggling.
Also, at low percents, it IS possible to Uthrow CG Falcon with DI reading but the timing is incredibly strict (I cant do it at 2 frame buffer in training mode but I can do it with 10 Frame in normal Brawl) and only works to around possibly 20-34%. I'd need a falcon to spam jump to see when he can first get out. After that, you'll have to rely on utilt to DI reading for follow ups or another regrab.
I do think it is impossible to do it at 0% though, but once again, I cannot perform this at 2 frame buffer.
I'd believe it'd work better if they DI forward, if they do, you might be able to regrab prior to 8%.
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After further testing, at 8%, an uthrow to utilt allows for a regrab (No DI) unto another uthrow which you could chain from that.
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And after a bit more messing around, at 20%+ after an uthrow you can DD forward > backward into a running grab regbrab, window is small, but its possible. Allowing for CGs with reading.
I need you guys to start testing this out on Falcon. Lol.
As for juggling, I ususally use uthrow on FFers and utilt on everyone else as I dont have the finger control to use FF'd Uairs near the ground for juggling.
Also, at low percents, it IS possible to Uthrow CG Falcon with DI reading but the timing is incredibly strict (I cant do it at 2 frame buffer in training mode but I can do it with 10 Frame in normal Brawl) and only works to around possibly 20-34%. I'd need a falcon to spam jump to see when he can first get out. After that, you'll have to rely on utilt to DI reading for follow ups or another regrab.
I do think it is impossible to do it at 0% though, but once again, I cannot perform this at 2 frame buffer.
I'd believe it'd work better if they DI forward, if they do, you might be able to regrab prior to 8%.
----
After further testing, at 8%, an uthrow to utilt allows for a regrab (No DI) unto another uthrow which you could chain from that.
---
And after a bit more messing around, at 20%+ after an uthrow you can DD forward > backward into a running grab regbrab, window is small, but its possible. Allowing for CGs with reading.
I need you guys to start testing this out on Falcon. Lol.
Nike.
Smash Hero
I dont think its comboing falcon thats the problem. Its the getting comboed part. DI for every move is what we should be looking at. Heck, a simple grab from falcon can 0-death most of the cast and we need to minimize his options.
Well, what I found works is DI-ing sorta...down+left/right. This sends you low down to tech, or if you're at the ledge, prevents the typical knee follow-up unless he wants to risk a SD, and allows you to try to recover low. He's at positional advantage, but it eliminates his best kill option.
???
luvs2pluck
Smash Apprentice
From what Ive played in Marth v Falcon matches, youre right about DIing down + away on his throws onstage. The only problem with this is that his uthrow is good to combo with at low percents for fast fallers, even though Marth doesn't belong in this category he still becomes as easy to combo as they are if you DI down + away on a uthrow. Basically my point is to not get too comfortable DI -ing down + away every time you get grabbed.
At high percentages I think the knee is guaranteed out of a dthrow, Im pretty sure you wont have enough time to tech the stage before he reaches you. In this situation I think its best to DI up + towards falcon, even though the knee is still guaranteed, Falcon will have a very awkward time landing it, especially if your opponent doesn't expect it.
As for all his other moves, I would say to DI - Up + towards Falcon. Basically get above his head. Even though Marth doesn't like being above somebody, and Falcon isn't really disadvantaged here (he can still uair you) it is much better than being in front of the knee. Being above falcon uses his momentum against him as he has to continue stopping his natural flow, making things awkward.
So I would say anytime you see a dash attack, uair, sideB, or bair DI Up + towards. Never DI down or away on any of these moves (unless you are extremely close to the stage so you can tech) as it will put you in perfect position for more comboing. Think about it this way, Falcon has incredible horizontal speed; he will always catch you if you go left or right of him, but vertically he gets no special treatment.
If he hits you perfectly with a nair there's not much you can do, just buckle up and welcome the knee.
That's all I have to say about DI in this match up. For everything else regarding this fight, just keep in mind you have a sword and hes got arms and legs.
Haha. I'm throwing out info for you guys to test and debating things that you guys bring up. xD
Nike.
Smash Hero
Neko, im going to Hobo16. I suk at Brawl and will most likely be playing + the entire time. We BETTER play 564375890732 friendlies :D
polyopulis
Smash Cadet
just use C-stick, jump, C up, analog down